drum programming

[michealbr0ke]

Hi!



My name is micheal, i'm from Holland and i'm new to this forum. I just recently started producing hard techno and i'm trying to sort a few things out. First off; when u guys program your drums/percussion do you program them on a grid and when u do, do u use the shuffle function? Or do you place all the notes/hits by hand using a very small or no grid at all?? Do you guys use reverb on drums/percussion?? How far from each other do u pan the percussion, or dont u pan them at all? Do u guys place the note between the kicks (for example: open hat) exactly between the kick, or do u shift it a bit later or earlier?

I know I should just listen to what sounds best.. but I was just curious about how you guys deal with these things..

Thanks!



greetz micheal

[DJZeMig_L]

Hey..



Hi!



First off; when u guys program your drums/percussion do you program them on a grid and when u do, do u use the shuffle function?







Depends on yer objectivo, personal taste or music style... harder stuff are generaly straight quantised so they they sound more direct a mechanical... if u r into chicago then it's shuffle (there ain't nothing like the 909's shuflle). the main thing is to follow what sounds right 2 ya... it helps ya develop yer own style





Or do you place all the notes/hits by hand using a very small or no grid at all??







If yer timming is perfect and u prefer 2 play... u don't need Grid...





Do you guys use reverb on drums/percussion??





Avoid swapping stuff like bd and toms... reverb generally makes stuff sound distant.. so use what sounds right 2 ya.. that generally means virtually anything as long as it sensible and as long as the reverb doesn't affect lower freq.







How far from each other do u pan the percussion, or dont u pan them at all?





generally u don't pan BD... all the rest go crazy.. but I wouldn't pan hard left or right... actually panning is very important 2 have a more interesting a pro sounding mix







Do u guys place the note between the kicks (for example: open hat) exactly between the kick, ..."...or do u shift it a bit later or earlier?"





that's shuffle.. ssee answer above







Z

[michealbr0ke]

Thank u very much for your reply Ze Migl! I'll try out some stuff tonight..

[z0ki]

this not a list to follow...

but it did help me realize differences..and how important

little adjustments are...



in the end..its all about what you think sounds right..



bass drum centered or 5 % right

hi-hat 5-10 percent left

snare slightly right or center

cymbals are the big ones to move around the kit:

crash cymbal 20-30 percent right or left

ride cymbal 15 percent right

toms should move across the spectrum



-z

[michealbr0ke]

thanks z0ki, that is usefull. btw do you guys use some kind of randomize function on some of your drum notes??

greetz

[miromiric.]

no, not really, except for special kind of mid-hats where i always get the same result no matter if i randomize it or write it down manually.

[michealbr0ke]

...and do u randomize velocity on some drum notes?? thnx for reply btw

[miromiric.]

no, there`s no need to, cause i keep pattern lenght very short. it`s very sensitive thing, if you want to make a cycle, you have to learn where to stress velocity.

[michealbr0ke]

damn.. my babylon translator trial expired :/ what do u mean with stress?

[miromiric.]

to put an accent, to bring it up

[michealbr0ke]

ah.. i dig you now

thnx man

[Basil Rush]

Put a tiny amount of reverb on all your percussion hats and everything. A short room reverb, or just early reflections, you want it so you can hardly hear it. If you want a particular effect though it's fine to wack a longer more dramatic reverb on some of the percussion. You can stick an even smaller amount of your short reverb on the kick if it's going to be on it's own in the track at some point, just to give it a tiny sheen.

Drums from MIDI instruments, samplers or whatever will arrive in your track slightly later than the trigger, and timing is everything in a tight rhythm track. So... Record all your drums down to audio. Quantize the audio, most modern stuff has a function for this. If not then zoom in and check the timing by hand. You want most of your stuff to follow the same quantize, this might or might not be a shuffle or swing quantize, whatever you choose as a setting then use it for everything else unless you've got something that definitely sounds amazing quantised differently.

Compress all the percussion individually. Turn off the compressor if you can't make it sound better on that track using it. You can use the compressor to give sounds the right amount of attack in your track.

If it's that real driving pumping techno sound you want, wack all the percussion through a single bus on your mixer or in your computer. Put a another compressor over the lot, use 10ms attack or so and adjust the release time and ratio for the right effect. Everything should duck under the kick.

This sounds like a more dramatic version of when you stand in front of the speakers and jump up and down to your tune. If your tune sounds exciting then and doesn't when you get your butt back onto the chair then you maybe want a bit of this trick.

Make sure you aren't cluttering your mids. Selectively EQ (before the compressor) your percussion. Shelving filters at the bottom or a high pass filter are very handy here.

[MARKEG]

amazing advice basil.

great name too :=]

[Basil Rush]

Ah well, tight percussion is what we are good at. Now when we crack big up for it original lead sounds with a bit of restraint on the cheese we'll be dangerous.

Baz

[michealbr0ke]

very nice tips indeed! thnx! ill try out some shit..
btw: does any1 know a good vst compressor wich doesnt use too much cpu?

[MARKEG]

i use the waves comp plugs but yes the are processor hogs... what about the standard comp that comes with each channel?

[Basil Rush]

We use the Waves C1 compressor on most percussion, and the Renassance Compressor when we really care about the type of compression e.g. when we are compressing the entire rhythm section or on other critical parts. Start with the C1 and go to the Ren Comp if you think it sounds better and the part is significant.

C1 is pretty effecient although it doesn't have the nicest interface ever.

Make sure you don't over compress with a long release - you'll get a very loud click at the beginning or when you start your sequencer. If you have this problem your release time is too long or you just need to turn down the track and back off on the threshold/release/ratio a bit (or just bounce the track down and pick a loop from the middle and use that loop in the track which will save you some CPU anyways).

[Dave Elyzium]

just thought id add that there are soom good guides to compressors and the whole science of compression on the future music website www.futuremusic.co.uk (i think thats the right address) just go to the making music section and do a search for "compression"

hope that helps anyone that still feels stuck (and compression is THE bitch of them all to master i reckon!)

[mindgame]

bumping...
jay if you see this this may be helpful to you as well..

[180mph]

very nice tips indeed! thnx! ill try out some shit..
btw: does any1 know a good vst compressor wich doesnt use too much cpu?

timeworks compressor is very very powerful... and it looks like a little rack job!!!...sweet!!!!!! doesnt use up too much cpu!

[grog|e]

very nice tips indeed! thnx! ill try out some shit..
btw: does any1 know a good vst compressor wich doesnt use too much cpu?

endorphin (http://www.digitalfishphones.com (http://www.digitalfishphones.com/main.php?item=2&subItem=3)) bangs, and its freeware. Well worth a go.

[sash]

If it's that real driving pumping techno sound you want, wack all the percussion through a single bus on your mixer or in your computer. Put a another compressor over the lot, use 10ms attack or so and adjust the release time and ratio for the right effect. Everything should duck under the kick.

hard knee or soft knee?

[/quote="Basil Rush"]
Make sure you aren't cluttering your mids. Selectively EQ (before the compressor) your percussion. Shelving filters at the bottom or a high pass filter are very handy here.[/quote]

if u eq b4 the compressor, isn't the compressor just going to bring out unwanted frequencies out such as sibilants n so forth, thus needing to eq again?

[Basil Rush]

Not normally no. (Silibants are more a vocal thing anyway as essses are naturally quieter than the rest of the spoken voice, unless you are whispering, and compressing brings them out and then you have to fix it with a De-Esser which essentally tweaks the response of the compressor to restore a normal balance to the esss sounds).

If you imagine an extreme example, you are taking a break beat with a kick drum and putting it into your mix, you want the energy of the hi-hats and so on in the track but want to eq out the kick a bit so it'll sit in the track. if you compress before the eq the compressor will kick in on the relatively loud kick drum ducking the hi-hat part in the process. Compressing after the EQ sorts this out a bit ... does that explain or have i missed the point?

laters, B.

[H3lx]

this is probably gonna sound like a rediculous question here, but to what extent do people use toms in tracks? never used any myself, and cant really see too many oppertunities to sit them in anywhere, but im thinking more along the lines of tom use in a live kit i suppose

i see a good few mentions of toms in drum programming on here and i was just wondering where/how people use them so i can give it a go myself and see how i fair

[jake]

toms... theyre grrrrreat!

http://www.kelloggs.com/promotions/olympics/play_the_game/images/tony.gif

[dirty_bass]

I`ve used them for all sorts.
Basslines, tribal precussion.
All sorts.

[tekara]

btw,

lets just say you assign 10 channels to 10 different samples from your drum pattern, if you guys want to EQ and compress each channel, do you guys really open up 10 different VSTI plugin effects for all channels? isnt that a kind of cpu hog right there?


just curious thats all...

thx

[Basil Rush]

You can always bounce 'em down when you've got them right but yeah, EQ and compressor per channel very often ...

[miss bass]

wow this is my type of in deapth convo,,,,, Have to say cubase sx has a shit compressor and reverb, anyways, do u think its necessary 2 compress all your drums, i dont compress all my percussion, tiny bit of reverb definately makes drums sound bigger.

actually i dont mind sittin there with mouse and sequencing up a drum pattern, with like a small tap or hit positioned just off of the bass kick. Infact i love doing it , even to the point where u get confused which tiny square of the grid u have place it!!!

L8ly i seem to keep doing some quite drummy tunes, just like all off beat percussion going on and doubled beats etc.

Not really bothered bout havin a sampler / sequencer , mpc type thing as i like sequencing on cubase, its just the part of getting good drum samples...any1 know of any?

Thanks

[davethedrummer]

try misusing the tc electronics stereo de esser
that's got a nice sound.
or the lexi compressor on your kik.
watch out for slow attack times.
if you do a roll on the kik and your comp is set too tight and too
slow it'll struggle to catch all the quick beats.

use reverb sparingly.
if you can seperate the reverb returns do it and have them coming back on a seperate channel on the mixer.
try putting this through a bus along with the kik and some perc.

have fun with yer drums