THE KEY TO GOOD BUSINESS IN TECHNO

[davethedrummer]

in my opinion is:

small amounts of money moving quickly


recently at s.u.f. hq we have adopted this attitude to make sure nothing like the infectious bankruptcy affects us like it did before , the process is simple:

pay people as soon as you have the money to do it.
don't sit on the cash , and don't allow invoices and debts to pile up.
this may seem obvious but it is amazing how many people in the industry still don't do this , and i honestly believe it is a principle reason for labels and distributors going bust.
The temptation to leave it , or wait until there is a more serious amount due is understandable.
But paying the guy the 50 that you owe him now, rather than waiting until it becomes 100 is really the way forward for underground techno companies especially when there is so little money being made and record sales are so down.

how often have you heard " oh these guys went bust owing everyone 10,000's of pounds" etc etc....?

or " its just a question of cashflow" ????

well thats it , CASHFLOW! The answers right there in that word. make that money move even if it's 10 pounds , it keeps a tight ship and minimizes risk , it also gives us the encouragement to keep going and be a part of it.

it's just something i was thinking about and wanted to know your thoughts on this
obviously no one wants to talk about their personal finances on the net but there's a point in there , maybe one of you guys has been thinking the same thing.

this also can relate to extreme dj wages ( there are many arguments about this ) where they do not represent the actual "bums on seats" value of the dj.
paying djs what they are worth and not some figure plucked out of thin air will essentially keep the clubs open for longer , give people more variety
( the spice of life right???) and enable the base of the scene
( newcomers (yes those guys who spend ages making mix tapes and tracks at home) , labels, shops , distribution ) to grow stronger.

it has a lot to do with morale , how sick are you of hearing that , this club has finished? this company has gone ? oh, that guy has retired ?
it saps the soul and lifeforce from the music everytime you hear something negative.

so this message is for everyone ( as if we don't know already)
keep a tight ship , pay everyone ( even your mates ) on time and the correct amount , and for all you superstar djs out there , don't take the piss!
for every 10,000 a mega dj makes , another younger dj (who wants it bad and could probably eat you for breakfast ) goes hungry.......

i don't mean literally but.............you know what i mean!

what do you lot think?

[davethedrummer]

sorry i just realised this thread could get messy
i don't want to get into a slagging match about overpriced djs (again)
but it would be good to hear postive thoughts on how to keep the business alive

[The Overfiend]

Brilliant Topic Henry.

[Alan Oldham]

Well I suppose the first thing is to get people to realize that this is a business or industry. Most newer people in the game refuse to recognize it as such

[dirty_bass]

I think your right about the whole moving money, keeping it payed when it should be payed.
But as you know the business doesn`t work like that. there are too many bullshitters.
I personally would prefer the words "can`t pay you, sorry, I`m ****ed, you`ll have to wait, or, look mate, we can`t guarantee all the money for that order now, but we`ll pay you half nowm " etc
than the typical front of the business ie "sorry mate, my missus blew up the credit card machine, or, I just missed the bank mate, or, I`ve got money coming in tommorrow" etc
Straight talk rather than bullshit.
I personally would rather hear, what I don`t want to hear. Than some meaningless front off.

But yeah, ideally, if everyone had your, of the SUF`s opinion of cashflow. We`d all be happier bunnies.

[Sunil]

Well I suppose the first thing is to get people to realize that this is a business or industry. Most newer people in the game refuse to recognize it as such

Sure thing. The whole "I'm into it for the love, don't care about making money, if we break even it's cool" is very naive. If you're going to start up any type of project /label/clubnight etc., you need to keep your head above water which means making money. It's possible to keep it real and make money, you need to know what you are doing though and have a good oversight on the market and where it's going, there's so many people that still don't have a basic grasp of this and as a result their efforts are worthy of little mention, it turns into a mess. Why bother then? If you *genuinely* see what you're doing as being something that'll make a difference or add to the scene then go for it, if you don't then forget about it.

[Martin Dust]

Learn that a P and D deal means you don't actually own anything but the copyright. The amount of "wars" I've seen over this when a company goes down is unreal.

Be open and honest and you can't really wrong.

You can't make people want something they don't want.

Ensure you spend your folding stuff with those that don't treat you like dirt.

That the internet isn't the be all and end all - Numbers of views does not and probably never will turn into people through the door.

That quotes from DJ's don't mean shit to a buyer.

[Sunil]

That quotes from DJ's don't mean shit to a buyer.

Unless the quotes actually sound favourable and not out of context, like the short 3-4 word cut and paste quotes often sound.

Some companies still go way over the top, listing off their favourite 15 top league techno DJs that play the record (or who got it in the post), this shit makes no difference and often creates an undesired effect, giving the record less meaning or relevence to the buyer.

[romelpotter]

great topic :lol:

as a new business, then techno is a high risk propersition, so as a new business man, it would be fair to say that you would look to some other safer form of business to make your money, so with that said a love of techno would have to play a big part of it.

[Martin Dust]

That quotes from DJ's don't mean shit to a buyer.

Unless the quotes actually sound favourable and not out of context, like the short 3-4 word cut and paste quotes often sound.

Some companies still go way over the top, listing off their favourite 15 top league techno DJs that play the record (or who got it in the post), this shit makes no difference and often creates an undesired effect, giving the record less meaning or relevence to the buyer.

I've spoken to over twenty buyers in the last two weeks Sunil - all said they take little to no notice - it's hardly surprising really - they now pay more attention to reviews in magazine/sites. So even if you get major support they don't see this as a reason to buy - harsh but true.

[Sunil]

I've spoken to over twenty buyers in the last two weeks Sunil - all said they take little to no notice - it's hardly surprising really - they now pay more attention to reviews in magazine/sites. So even if you get major support they don't see this as a reason to buy - harsh but true.

I'm not disagreeing with that, any buyer worth their salt would not be fooled by the bullshit talk on many press releases, it's been the unashamed abuse of "this DJ said this" and so on that's decreased the effect of your average press release.

However there's still ways, in press releases, to make them sound good. A good press release can be written with knowledge, honesty and cop on (maybe sometimes with a bit of humour). Another press release can be written in over the top, conveyor belt mode that gives it little identity or appeal. I know which one I'd take more seriously.

[webassassin]

Well I suppose the first thing is to get people to realize that this is a business or industry. Most newer people in the game refuse to recognize it as such

Sure thing. The whole "I'm into it for the love, don't care about making money, if we break even it's cool" is very naive. If you're going to start up any type of project /label/clubnight etc., you need to keep your head above water which means making money. It's possible to keep it real and make money, you need to know what you are doing though and have a good oversight on the market and where it's going, there's so many people that still don't have a basic grasp of this and as a result their efforts are worthy of little mention, it turns into a mess. Why bother then? If you *genuinely* see what you're doing as being something that'll make a difference or add to the scene then go for it, if you don't then forget about it.

Hells yeah! :clap: Not only is it naive but it is also a form of denial. Some people will say "Oh, music should be free", because they know darn well that no one is buying their music, hence in their minds the reason why music should be free in general, therefore lowering the standards and worth of the music. People who strive to take care of and know their business and care about the quality of their product will make more and more money as time wears on. That's just how it goes.

I don't care if someone makes money as long as they go about it correctly and respectfully.

[dan the acid man]

blooody greaqt topic, im not involved in the business side yet, so i cant contributre much, but it does make sense to pay people as soon as the money comes through/.................sorry im a bit pissed :oops:

[DJMAYA]

yea mate!

this whole industry (right down to mixing) is all about having a good state of mind! so if cashflow is gona give people a lil boost every now and again then so be it!! god knows we all need it.

[killarava2day]

pay people as soon as you have the money to do it.
don't sit on the cash , and don't allow invoices and debts to pile up.


I allow this to happen in most facets of my financial life. Sometimes you need to be burnt hard, to realise the pain you can cause to others (by not paying your bills)...but sometimes you can feel, somehow, more secure knowing you've got money behind you in the bank. One of my friends gloats about avin 20k in the bank, but seems to neglet to advise that he has a 30k credit card problem.

[Martin Dust]

I've spoken to over twenty buyers in the last two weeks Sunil - all said they take little to no notice - it's hardly surprising really - they now pay more attention to reviews in magazine/sites. So even if you get major support they don't see this as a reason to buy - harsh but true.

I'm not disagreeing with that, any buyer worth their salt would not be fooled by the bullshit talk on many press releases, it's been the unashamed abuse of "this DJ said this" and so on that's decreased the effect of your average press release.

However there's still ways, in press releases, to make them sound good. A good press release can be written with knowledge, honesty and cop on (maybe sometimes with a bit of humour). Another press release can be written in over the top, conveyor belt mode that gives it little identity or appeal. I know which one I'd take more seriously.

Absolutely - A well written Press Release certainly helps and a few quotes wouldn't hurt but having seen loads of them it wears a bit thin after a well so you do have to box clever.

And while we are talking about promo's - my advice would be to send no more than 20 12"s out - anymore and you wipe out any profit on the first 1000 and if you don't need a sleeve don't use one as this will also keep the turn over up. Always chase people for reviews as well.

A good website with sound samples also helps as will setting up a small shop, even if it's with Paypal, because this will mean you get a better return to share with the artist - all helps.

[davethedrummer]

That quotes from DJ's don't mean shit to a buyer.

Unless the quotes actually sound favourable and not out of context, like the short 3-4 word cut and paste quotes often sound.

Some companies still go way over the top, listing off their favourite 15 top league techno DJs that play the record (or who got it in the post), this shit makes no difference and often creates an undesired effect, giving the record less meaning or relevence to the buyer.

and just to drive this point home more
those horrible press releases that people write ,
like "this record is currently being caned by......."
and if i read " will cause dancefloor devastation / mayhem" once more
i think i'm gonna explode!

one (the only) good thing about prime going down
i just used to read this stuff and think " what w.a.n.k.e.r. wrote this???"

[davethedrummer]

sorry my last reply was a bit over eager
i didn't read th whole thread before i posted ( don't do that again written in notebook)
but martin made a good point about keeping mailouts of promo's down to a minimum , and only mail out in the inner sleeves.

i'd just like to add:
don't bother doing white labels ( apart from your 10 test pressings )
as they are not that cheap and frankly they're a waste of rescouces.
just go straight for the finished product and use those for your promo mailout.
it'll take a few weeks presale for the distributor to catch up anyway so you'll still be ahead of the game and you recieve a nice shiny new record that looks better than a poxy white label.

don't mail out over ambitiously , like if you are making really hard techno don't send it to someone who really won't play it.

we don't send stuff to lot's of major dj's because:

1. they NEVER get back to you
2. they NEVER get back to you
3. they NEVER GET BACK TO YOU!

however john peel , fergie , jules are always worth it ( radio 1 u.k. for techno)

stanny fransen has always returned a reply and so has misjah so those guys are my pals! there have been orthers to so it's not a total bitch

i usually try to reply but i can be forgetful too :oops: so i know how it must be for those guys , but the point i'm actually making is that it's YOU the label owner who needs a response right?
so maybe consider sending your releases to regular club djs (like me of course!!! :doh: ) who may have a little more time than ritchie hawtin , jeff mills etc etc and may actually appreciate it a little more.

[dan the acid man]

some great tips here :cool:

[Martin Dust]

For Press Releases I always give a bit of history and a short piece about the 12" and sometimes feedback and reviews. Plus the release date with full artwork as well...

As Henry has pointed out, there's a few DJ's out there that never reply, X them off the list but I've been surprised by a few and it does depend on your tunes - for example Dave Clarke always replies, even tho he gets loads of shit on the net, I've always found his advice helpful. Pick your targets carefully - it's easy to see what they are into from their charts.

Always get the best mastering you can afford and don't fool yourself that you can pre-master, ever. Get the levels right and leave it to a good pair of ears - that way they will have more to work with. I've no idea who masters Reeko's records but I'd like to kill him/her.

Start your own mailing list and let people know stuff in advance, not to early tho - keep it short and sweet. Get your friends to get the record from the local store - this helps support the label and the local market.

Know your market and what is selling where - you might think the latest Umek 12" was a pile of shite but it did 12,000 units - go figure ;)

Martin

[Traxx]

was that the mumps record on tortured or another one since?

[Evil G]

Know your market and what is selling where - you might think the latest Umek 12" was a pile of shite but it did 12,000 units - go figure ;)

Martin

foregive me if this is a dumb question, but what is considered "good" for sales of a record these days? 2,000 copies? i know that most places do minimum runs of 500.

[miasma man]

It seems that to get a P & D deal you have to be fairly well established, have a bit of a reputation, which I suppose is obvious cos then the distributor knows your records will sell.

We don't have enough of a reputation at the moment but we're working on this, a lot of it is promoting to the right circles.

We've been told that you would ideally need about 5 releases on respected labels before approaching a distributor. Hopefully, we will be able to do this..

I suppose like in all business try and be as helpful as you can, hopefully it works both ways.

[Martin Dust]

Know your market and what is selling where - you might think the latest Umek 12" was a pile of shite but it did 12,000 units - go figure ;)

Martin

foregive me if this is a dumb question, but what is considered "good" for sales of a record these days? 2,000 copies? i know that most places do minimum runs of 500.

I think that depends on your head space really (Love Vs Bottom Line) - I'm putting out some stuff that I know won't do more than 1000, but it deserves to be heard and I'll bite the bullet on the profit line along with the artist to get it heard. But to answer your question most distributers look at 2500-3000 as an average/good.

[Alan Oldham]

White labels were brought up by Dave the Drummer. My question is do people even care about label art or finished package design anymore? Esp. from a Detroit label?

I know the stock, too-cool techno answer is "It's all about the music," so let's just get past that and assume that the music is good.

Seems to me that you can do 500 whites and you're good to go these days. Just sell 'em as is for full wholesale price. No outer jackets, no nothing. The sense I get is that nobody really gives a sh** about design and extras (comics/flyers) anymore. It's the vinyl equivalent of a home-burnt CD. Music is there but no visual context. Nobody cares.

I also base my opinions on when we sell back catalogue, most people prefer white labels to finished copies anyway. More rare.

Your thoughts?

[dirty_bass]

I don`t know really. It`s nice to have a good looking package.

[Jimfish]

yeah i agree totally, im now shelling out a heap on the artwork i wanted (but could never afford) for humanoid. The whole point of calling the label humanoid is in artwork that hasnt thus far existed - which has been a bit crap really.. :lol: get there in the end though. I figure if im only going to make a few hundred quid out of it i may as well spend that money to get somthing quality and unique that i can be proud of.. (so tasty new artwork coming soon! ;) )

[The Overfiend]

When you're at the record store the label art will jump out at you at times.
Good packaging is also about having something you can be proud of. Any artist here can understand that. Lof of us producers are gifted graphic artists as well.

[DJMAYA]

id rather have a properly packaged record over a white label anyday!

thrs nothing worse than looking for a tune in a box full of white labels.
During a set i mean.

[Martin Dust]

White labels were brought up by Dave the Drummer. My question is do people even care about label art or finished package design anymore? Esp. from a Detroit label?

I know the stock, too-cool techno answer is "It's all about the music," so let's just get past that and assume that the music is good.

Seems to me that you can do 500 whites and you're good to go these days. Just sell 'em as is for full wholesale price. No outer jackets, no nothing. The sense I get is that nobody really gives a sh** about design and extras (comics/flyers) anymore. It's the vinyl equivalent of a home-burnt CD. Music is there but no visual context. Nobody cares.

I also base my opinions on when we sell back catalogue, most people prefer white labels to finished copies anyway. More rare.

Your thoughts?


I care, I care a lot. Great artwork won't ever save a shite record but I love to get the feel of a label via their art - pick up it values and mind set. I'm all for artwork. White labels are fine for their job but once you got a few, well it does wear thin and there's nothing cool about them. Do people still think they are cool? When I see them in shops it usually means "The crap they/DJ's get sent for free and are trying to sell to me - bastards" in my head - although this isn't always right, so I do give them a spin - just in case ;)

I think the main reason people don't use artwork is it wipes out the profit on the first 1000 pressed. I'd still rather have something that looked good and was different than a black discobag any day of the week.

I guess there will always be a school of thought that believes White Labels top be rare or of greater value but something is only worth what someone else is willing to pay.

So, if you didn't pick it up- artwork all the freaking way...

Martin

[Martin Dust]

Oh yeah and I think there's no excuse for bad artwork either. Take UR, love there music - hate the label/sleeve artwork - if you are going to do that kind of stuff get the masters in Bisley, Walker, Staples - don't fanny around - do it properly...

[davethedrummer]

personally i love good artwork
it was one of the reasons for me to buy records when i was a kid and i still get enticed by it today.
these days though money is tight and artwork costs , so labels do tend to hold back on it.
Idid an experiment label with just white sleeves and stikers with white labels earlier on this year and you know what? it still cost a small fortune!!!
you really have to weigh up whether your label will sell enough to absorb the artwork costs and remember its the artists money you're spending too, ( theoretically)and you know what we were saying earlier about small amounts of money moving quickly?

but i have to say alan , i've always loved your djax labels so please don't feel that no one cares about it 'cos i do . and i'm sure plenty others do too.

[fatcollective]

Just like to say this topic has been really interesting, we have just started a new label and this is the sort of info which is a great help, with different views from different people, expreienced ones especially. It has opened my eyes to a few different things and i think we can only learn from here on.

cheers

[schlongfingers]

Not intending to offend anybody, but artwork makes absolutely zilch difference to me when buying music, it'll be ****ed up within 2 months anyway if the music is good enough.

In terms of good business.. my opinion is, like everything else with techno, the rule is there is no rule. People will follow others to the point of stagnation whereupon an innovator will set a new standard.

[djsirround]

in my opinion artwork is very important, when we got out our first release in june people came to me and told me yes, that record which have the label of the buildings right? (because its called Urban State Records and there is these tall buildings on the front)

Regarding the expenses, in our first release we had to push our label and sent many mailouts etc but for the second release the expenses and mailouts for sure will be less, of course after the first experience. Luckily the designer is a good friend of mine and its free :P

anyways its a very good topic which for sure is giving ideas to the new ones :clap: :clap: :clap:

[Sunil]

Not intending to offend anybody, but artwork makes absolutely zilch difference to me when buying music, it'll be **** up within 2 months anyway if the music is good enough.

Well to me, the artwork is a great added bonus but not essential if funds don't allow. A disco bag/cardboard outer sleeve is necessary though, paper sleeves only don't impress me too much :nono:




In terms of good business.. my opinion is, like everything else with techno, the rule is there is no rule. People will follow others to the point of stagnation whereupon an innovator will set a new standard.

The fact this is techno should make little difference to how you approach it as a business. No-one's saying there's strict rules, but there's no harm picking up tips and putting them into practice if you want your enterprise to work.

[Fake DJ]

I think art work gives a label a sense of identity (along with the sound ;) ) but even the simplest designs are better than a crappy black cover

altho black covers are better than white paper sleeves

and also, white paper sleeves arent necassary in a proper cover, its ok for rec shops because it keeps the vinyl more pristine (sp) but it aint necassary

[miasma man]

I love the artwork on records, v important, it gives me a better feel for the theme, context, etc. Communicating without having heard the record.

I also think that while the music is the major part of a recording its not all there is to it, there should be something more than that. I think there should be a finished product that's well thought about from every aspect.

[jonnyspeed]

set truely measurable objectives, with realistic targets and timeframes. Cash flow is a critical key performance indicator. Anybody interested shouls have a read about "Balanced Scorecards" and "KPIs"

:cool:

[Evil G]

set truely measurable objectives, with realistic targets and timeframes. Cash flow is a critical key performance indicator. Anybody interested shouls have a read about "Balanced Scorecards" and "KPIs"

:cool:

bleh. i have to deal with key performance indicators at work every day. la yuck.

[jonnyspeed]

set truely measurable objectives, with realistic targets and timeframes. Cash flow is a critical key performance indicator. Anybody interested shouls have a read about "Balanced Scorecards" and "KPIs"

:cool:

bleh. i have to deal with key performance indicators at work every day. la yuck.

well if you know what you are doing it can be a well oiled machine - providing all the information you need run the business.

[Dustin Zahn]

I agree with quite a bit that has been said in this thread thus far. I just got home and sort of distracted so I won't jump into it too deeply at the moment. I will say that artwork does play an important role, but another part of me doesn't give a shit about the artwork. I don't even know the EP/track names, or what the record looks like from most of my records. I know them by catalog # and thats it. I guess most artwork that comes with vinyl these days doesn't really interest me or catch my eye. There are certain records on the wall that will catch my eye and its because the artwork is really nice. Most techno records look so predictable...with their slick skinny fonts and chopped up polygons looking all futuristic. It all becomes a blur after while.

[davethedrummer]

I agree with quite a bit that has been said in this thread thus far. I just got home and sort of distracted so I won't jump into it too deeply at the moment. I will say that artwork does play an important role, but another part of me doesn't give a shit about the artwork. I don't even know the EP/track names, or what the record looks like from most of my records. I know them by catalog # and thats it. I guess most artwork that comes with vinyl these days doesn't really interest me or catch my eye. There are certain records on the wall that will catch my eye and its because the artwork is really nice. Most techno records look so predictable...with their slick skinny fonts and chopped up polygons looking all futuristic. It all becomes a blur after while.

o.k. but here's one
when you're playing in a club and your looking for THAT tune
that's when you realise that a strong original sleeve design really helps.
like this kiddaz record i've got ,the sleeve is just so distinctive that the record always goes back in and I always know where to find it because of that.
i can't say the same of many of my other records who seem to play musical sleeves every night and end up in a right old jumble after a weekends abuse.
i swear they all change sleeves by themselves just to confuse me! :roll:

[Si the Sigh]

Another reason why I hate white labels. They just don't stand out! :evil:

Artwork completes the package for me.

[Evil G]

artwork doesn't mean much to me in the store, but it does in my record bag. in the middle of a set i'll tend not to think, "after this i'm gonna play such and such by so and so." instead i'll think, "after this i'm gonna play the record with the orange label and the blue sleeve." no time for words!

can't say that i've ever made enough money from it to know about that side. at the peak of my popularity as a dj a couple years ago i was playing twice a week and still spending more money on records that i was getting paid. not really expecting much from the producing angle either, though it would be a dream to be able to quit the day job eventually. not counting on it though.

[Alan Oldham]

I must say I'm pleasantly surprised at the responses to this topic.

If this was a US board we would've had some tired-ass art school communist manifesto by now about how nobody should make any money off techno (written by somebody who can't make any money off techno). :roll:

I am particularly surprised at the art question. Most of the records I play are white labels, and people really do seem indifferent to artwork these days. When I did the "Orietta St. Cloud" project, people just threw away/ignored my comic which I spent four years working on, and focused on the exclusive Mills and Hawtin tracks that were on there, that was my 1st clue.

(Dave, thanks for your response, too, but my Djax stuff is considered 'back in the day' and I was thinking more along the lines of today's buyers)

Good luck with your labels and careers, everybody.

[davethedrummer]

so .......
quit the day job and go for broke?
or carry on stacking shelves at marks and spencers?
;)

[romelpotter]

so .......
quit the day job and go for broke?
or carry on stacking shelves at marks and spencers?
;)

the older you get, the harder it is to quit the day job due to increasing life comminments. :doh: pass me the beans :crackup:

[Dustin Zahn]

I seriously recommend that if you plan on starting a label, try taking a basic business class if you have no previous experience with running or owning a business. While all of it may not pertain to the independent music industry...you'll still learn a lot that can help out along the way. I think the reason this industry is in shambles is because it's mostly built by party people who don't have a grasp on any common sense in business.

[davethedrummer]

I seriously recommend that if you plan on starting a label, try taking a basic business class if you have no previous experience with running or owning a business. While all of it may not pertain to the independent music industry...you'll still learn a lot that can help out along the way. I think the reason this industry is in shambles is because it's mostly built by party people who don't have a grasp on any common sense in business.

now where did i put that college prospectus?
oh here it is propping up the filing cabinet.

[Dustin Zahn]

hahaha

[Evil G]

so .......
quit the day job and go for broke?
or carry on stacking shelves at marks and spencers?
;)

heh. well, if i had job like that, i'd have to work a million years to get my studio set up, wouldn't i? :doh:

currently i'm a computer geek by day. should have everything paid off in a year or two and then we'll see. :)

[Martin Dust]

so .......
quit the day job and go for broke?
or carry on stacking shelves at marks and spencers?
;)

My advice would be to get 3 day jobs just to feel the joy of putting something out - there's nothing like it - better than sex but only just mind ;)

[djsirround]

I seriously recommend that if you plan on starting a label, try taking a basic business class if you have no previous experience with running or owning a business. While all of it may not pertain to the independent music industry...you'll still learn a lot that can help out along the way. I think the reason this industry is in shambles is because it's mostly built by party people who don't have a grasp on any common sense in business.

thats why someone in malta is still going to college and study Marketing :cool: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[The Overfiend]

High Five on that one, anyone who wants to be business minded, really needs to learn something about it first, especially when dealing with international types.

[dirty_bass]

I think your right about the whole moving money, keeping it payed when it should be payed.
But as you know the business doesn`t work like that. there are too many bullshitters.
I personally would prefer the words "can`t pay you, sorry, I`m ****, you`ll have to wait, or, look mate, we can`t guarantee all the money for that order now, but we`ll pay you half nowm " etc
than the typical front of the business ie "sorry mate, my missus blew up the credit card machine, or, I just missed the bank mate, or, I`ve got money coming in tommorrow" etc
Straight talk rather than bullshit.
I personally would rather hear, what I don`t want to hear. Than some meaningless front off.



Since making this comment a few people have said to me "whoa, are you really pissed with your distributer or what?"

erm

No.

Upon reading this again, I realised how this might be misconstrued.
Before any more sympathisers for a lynch mob to defend me,
I am one of the lucky few to have found a distributer who gives me straight talk, and no bullshit. I am in a position where I have a good personal relation with my company, who do more than just sell my records, by actually offering feedback, support, and encouragement.
But also, not letting me get too far up my artistic arse to forget that this is a business. It`s nice to feel I can discuss my musical developement in a nurturing environment.

So yeah, I`m very happy, it`s just a bugger I`ve had to go through the pits of hell in the music biz to finally end up this way.

So please, no more death threats, my guy is doing a sterling job.

[gary_human]

Good luck to all of you making a business out of it - its always been a hobby for me and always will be . . .

I HATE work and always have, I wouldnt want to have those same feelings about techno/music - thats my excuse for being a lame ass anyway ;)

I take my hat off to all talented producers - :clap:

And yeah I like vinyl with pictures on and yeah i like white labels aswell - i just LOVE :love: that black gold 12 " or 10" or 7" round vinyl - I heard the story about a guy who had so much vinyl in his house he could only just get through his front door - I hope i dont turn into that - a real true Mr Treebus!!

[T]

yep fair play to all those who make their bread out of this business, buying music playing records and parties has always been a passionate hobby for me so respect to anyone who put's their passions into constructive practice.

The likes of me need to keep the spirit alive by buying listening and dancing to fantastic music to balance out the drudgery of daily existence and a life in the office or any other shitty workplace.

I suppose music and all the other things I enjoy in life are an escape from the relentless work and the less enjoyable things in life.

Good luck to you all hope the fact that becomes your living doesn't take away any enjoyment and keep those records coming!

[Louk]

That quotes from DJ's don't mean shit to a buyer.

Unless the quotes actually sound favourable and not out of context, like the short 3-4 word cut and paste quotes often sound.

Some companies still go way over the top, listing off their favourite 15 top league techno DJs that play the record (or who got it in the post), this shit makes no difference and often creates an undesired effect, giving the record less meaning or relevence to the buyer.

and just to drive this point home more
those horrible press releases that people write ,
like "this record is currently being caned by......."
and if i read " will cause dancefloor devastation / mayhem" once more
i think i'm gonna explode!

one (the only) good thing about prime going down
i just used to read this stuff and think " what w.a.n.k.e.r. wrote this???"

Hahahahahahhaahhah thats one thing I noticed about your press releases the amount of hilarity they cause

"Rockin Avin It Stompin Disco Funk Mayhem for your free party / disused warehouse" or something :)

Louk

[Louk]

sorry my last reply was a bit over eager
i didn't read th whole thread before i posted ( don't do that again written in notebook)
but martin made a good point about keeping mailouts of promo's down to a minimum , and only mail out in the inner sleeves.

i'd just like to add:
don't bother doing white labels ( apart from your 10 test pressings )
as they are not that cheap and frankly they're a waste of rescouces.
just go straight for the finished product and use those for your promo mailout.
it'll take a few weeks presale for the distributor to catch up anyway so you'll still be ahead of the game and you recieve a nice shiny new record that looks better than a poxy white label.

don't mail out over ambitiously , like if you are making really hard techno don't send it to someone who really won't play it.

we don't send stuff to lot's of major dj's because:

1. they NEVER get back to you
2. they NEVER get back to you
3. they NEVER GET BACK TO YOU!

however john peel , fergie , jules are always worth it ( radio 1 u.k. for techno)

stanny fransen has always returned a reply and so has misjah so those guys are my pals! there have been orthers to so it's not a total bitch

i usually try to reply but i can be forgetful too :oops: so i know how it must be for those guys , but the point i'm actually making is that it's YOU the label owner who needs a response right?
so maybe consider sending your releases to regular club djs (like me of course!!! :doh: ) who may have a little more time than ritchie hawtin , jeff mills etc etc and may actually appreciate it a little more.

I always give feedback when I get a promo from you so not all Press/Radio/Club DJs are like that....

Louk

[Alan Oldham]

I seriously recommend that if you plan on starting a label, try taking a basic business class if you have no previous experience with running or owning a business. While all of it may not pertain to the independent music industry...you'll still learn a lot that can help out along the way. I think the reason this industry is in shambles is because it's mostly built by party people who don't have a grasp on any common sense in business.

thats why someone in malta is still going to college and study Marketing :cool: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Man, I love Malta. I'd live there for awhile if it wasn't so expensive. When you guys get the Euro, it'll be better

[djsirround]

I seriously recommend that if you plan on starting a label, try taking a basic business class if you have no previous experience with running or owning a business. While all of it may not pertain to the independent music industry...you'll still learn a lot that can help out along the way. I think the reason this industry is in shambles is because it's mostly built by party people who don't have a grasp on any common sense in business.

thats why someone in malta is still going to college and study Marketing :cool: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Man, I love Malta. I'd live there for awhile if it wasn't so expensive. When you guys get the Euro, it'll be better

in one or two years time alan, it will be more expensive anyways, but at least you don't have the hassle of the currency ;)

[davethedrummer]

alan wrote in the post about summer being over something that should be dicussed here i reckon

that is :
what time of year to release your records
summer and christmas are notoriously bad for releasing underground music , ( because everyone is saving/spending their hard earned cash on other things at that time of year , reo speedwagon c.d.s , lord of the rings dvd box sets...you get the picture )
but that doesn't necessarily mean that you can't do it.

we do but we keep the runs small , and get prepared to repress for the autumn / spring.
we've found that this helps to keep the cash flow going.

we never used to do it but maybe since there's so many labels in the suf collective now we have to. once you have that much stuff moving it becomes very hard to just stop it.

on the other hand if you are just running one label , then maybe trying to pick your release date is much more important , round about now ( maybe oct actually) is a great time to release techno , why??? search me, but it does always seem to pick up in the autumn.

maybe the oncoming winter just makes you think "boom boom boom'??

i dunno but it's definately a consideration esp. if you are just starting up.

[Evil G]

when i first started out djing it used to drive me nuts that there were so few records released in the summer. every week i would go down to the record shop and try to decide which of the 3 new records sucked the least.

i always assumed it was because everybody who does both production and djing was on tour during the summer. not the first time i've been wrong about how this all works. ;)