Did WJ Henze Jack a Glenn Wilson Loop?

[Joseph Isaac]

I'm not trying to start some rumor sh*t, but have a listen for yourself:


Original Track by Glenn Wilson --> Serum on Heroes 2

http://www.planetxusa.com/pub/audio/djram/2002/102741.ram

(Starts at 1:31...)

WJ Henze's Track on the new Highland Beats

http://www.planetxusa.com/pub/audio/djram/2004/153941.ram

(Listen closely around 30 seconds...)

A friend of mine pointed this out to me and i was convinced...

[Sunil]

I'm not trying to start some rumor sh*t, but have a listen for yourself:


Original Track by Glenn Wilson --> Serum on Heroes 2

http://www.planetxusa.com/pub/audio/djram/2002/102741.ram

(Starts at 1:31...)

WJ Henze's Track on the new Highland Beats

http://www.planetxusa.com/pub/audio/djram/2004/153941.ram

(Listen closely around 30 seconds...)

A friend of mine pointed this out to me and i was convinced...

A little bit maybe, but I wouldn't have really noticed unless you'd said it, if Henze did use a loop it didn't do too much to enhance his own track as they don't sound too like one another. I wouldn't be having the guns out for Henze here anyway, there's not enough in that to say he *did* nick a loop.

[karlo]

im realy dont belive in that, wj henze is not newcommer who cant make a loop? you gotta know that theres out many loops cds, and what the hell happen?? they used the same one! maybe Henze never heard that stuff of glenn....IMO! ;)

[markus]

Yeah, he totally jacked that track.

I don't want to get caught up in rumor stuff either, but he's making cash off of somebody else's work, and that's not cool :nono:

I would have assumed that the label would have caught this before releasing the record, seeing how serum is a fairly well known track and all. :doh:

[Sunil]

I would have assumed that the label would have caught this before releasing the record, seeing how serum is a fairly well known track and all. :doh:

It's only a loop, and no-one can say that he did actually use it yet. They are each pretty run of the mill, hard loop tools that you'd throw into a mix for a minute or two, big deal. Big up WJ Henze :clap:

[markus]

im realy dont belive in that, wj henze is not newcommer who cant make a loop? you gotta know that theres out many loops cds, and what the hell happen?? they used the same one! maybe Henze never heard that stuff of glenn....IMO! ;)

Yeah, that's what I was thinking when I heard it. Because Henze has been making tracks for a long time, good ones too. But it is kind of obvious that he did use a loop from serum. So who knows, maybe he did just have a loop of it sitting around, and he's never actually heard the original before :eh:

I dunno, I guess I shouldn't jump to conclusions, but the second I heard that track, I recognized the serum loop.

[Col]

im not too convinced actually.

[Sunil]

Sorry to be so offhand guys, I'm tired tonight. I just reckon people get their knickers in a twist too easily over stuff like this, let Glenn Wilson and Henze worry about it if they want ;) Personally I don't think this case is too big a deal from what I heard just there.

[markus]

Sorry to be so offhand guys, I'm tired tonight. I just reckon people get their knickers in a twist too easily over stuff like this, let Glenn Wilson and Henze worry about it if they want ;) Personally I don't think this case is too big a deal from what I heard just there.

Yeah it's really none of my biz. Still believe that it's a serum loop imo. But like I said, that's just my opinion. Don't want to get caught up in rumors. It's not a big deal or anything. Like you said, if there's a problem, then they'll deal with it.

I was just pointing out what I heard.

[Joseph Isaac]

Sorry to be so offhand guys, I'm tired tonight. I just reckon people get their knickers in a twist too easily over stuff like this, let Glenn Wilson and Henze worry about it if they want ;) Personally I don't think this case is too big a deal from what I heard just there.

Yeah it's really none of my biz. Still believe that it's a serum loop imo. But like I said, that's just my opinion. Don't want to get caught up in rumors. It's not a big deal or anything. Like you said, if there's a problem, then they'll deal with it.

I was just pointing out what I heard.

Goes for me as well...

[heavy beats]

not sure if that's same loop cause I haven't had a listen to either one yet. either way, it wouldn't surprise me. his bassoon release on energy industries back in the days sounded like some mill's loops.

either way, all this techno stuff all sounds the same! people need to stop using that biting that 909 sample. :doh:

[heavy beats]

geez, im not making sense tonight.

[markus]

either way, all this techno stuff all sounds the same! :doh:

Hahaha! :lol:

[Dustin Zahn]

Not wanting to step on toes here but this isn't surprising about this release. I can point out a bunch of instances where he totally jacked samples from other producers (or it's a coincidence that they use the same patches on synths, drum machines), but I won't out of respect to WJH because there is already enough player hating going on in techno right now.

[The Overfiend]

I'm not sure how much I like this topic,
Everyone jacks loops,
No need to single out Wjh for it.

[Joseph Isaac]

jeeeezzzussss....not trying to start a bloody soap opera here, and i sure as fck am not hatin on Henze, i was simply relaying information to see what others thought...fck, let me go crawl under a rock now..

[Adverse]

I'm not sure how much I like this topic,
Everyone jacks loops,
No need to single out Wjh for it.

word up ****.

[Adverse]

lamest topic ever :P

[killarava2day]

...a quiet thread day eh :shock:

BTW, that Highland Beats Ep is pretty cool, it'd be nice though if Henze could maybe piss off the 909 and use something else, it'd make for a positive change.

[MARKEG]

yeah come on guys. singling jorg out on a thread like this is unfair if you think about it. we've had enough stealing loops thread to last us a lifetime. everyone does nick loops and there's much, much worse out there than this. in fact, listening to both tracks, I'm not toally convinced the jorg has actually intentionally nicked a glenn wilson loop. i think what's probably happened is they've both found the same loops on a sample CD and used it. it's common as hell for this to happen these days. the problem we should be addressing is when ppl nick entirely bars of people's music from the record itself. but with the sample cd market alive and kicking, how can we really tell when this is the case?

[heavy beats]

sampling is techno.

[heavy beats]

ok, i finally listened to the samples, and they do sound similar, but they also sound like two completely different tracks. this is techno.

[markus]

Man I should have just kept my mouth shut :doh:

And I do admit that I jumped to conclusions before the discussion of the topic really even began, my bad, and I apologize for that. Maybe I had too much caffeine blowing through my system or something :lol:

I don't think the point of the thread was to single out Jorg and start a bashing fest though, I think it was to see if anyone else noticed the similarity as well.

I have no problems with him. And I think he makes some damn good tracks too.

So once again, sooooowwwwy ;)

[gunjack]

i dont sample techno and never have, but i am sooooooo sick of ppl trying to make cases out of every similar sound etc.



GET A LIFE!

that goes for mika and luka too!

[Dustin Zahn]

i dont sample techno and never have, but i am sooooooo sick of ppl trying to make cases out of every similar sound etc.

GET A LIFE!

Yeah, I'll agree with that. It's quite easy to come up with a lot of the typical sounds in techno tracks. A guitar, piano, or any other "traditional" instrument has notes. Why not treat a sample like a note instead of sample? I don't even care if people sample things to take it and make it their own. What I don't like is people taking a major part of another track and relying on it to push their track forward. Joris Voorn for instance, just did that Kowalski remix and used that same Michael Jackson sample that Mills used (or something real similar) for a short segement in that remix. He didn't take it and use it as the basis for his remix. It was just meant to be a nice small and funky addition to the track. It wasn't a focal point and it sounded good. Therefore, I don't complain at all about it. If he took the sample and put a lot of attention on it, or even made it the hook I probably wouldn't be all about it then.

[scienceofuse]

What about the User series? Uses some very "known" samples...

[Joseph Isaac]

My bad for initiating public discourse on a topic I thought would be a bit interesting (sorry Adverse, I let you down :cry: ) considering I, for one, don't jack loops from people (and no i'm not patting myself on the back). I figured maybe other people might have constructive opinions on it as some people obviously do. So if everyone is jacking loops then i guess i'm the black sheep...again.

Furthermore, forgive me for not being a seasoned veteran at Blackout Audio with at least 1098349809850 posts. I was not a member when you all apparently have had these countless discussions before.

So much for posting threads that might be controversial...I must not have had my big bowl of p.c. for breakfast that day...

[Adverse]

word. you have no idea what the **** went on here with skull tunes last year that was a stupid mess.

i'm of your school when i found out the majority use pre recorded loops (sometime during that whole ST mess) i was very disillusioned.

cheers joseph

[karlo]

yeah come on guys. singling jorg out on a thread like this is unfair if you think about it. we've had enough stealing loops thread to last us a lifetime. everyone does nick loops and there's much, much worse out there than this. in fact, listening to both tracks, I'm not toally convinced the jorg has actually intentionally nicked a glenn wilson loop. i think what's probably happened is they've both found the same loops on a sample CD and used it. it's common as hell for this to happen these days. the problem we should be addressing is when ppl nick entirely bars of people's music from the record itself. but with the sample cd market alive and kicking, how can we really tell when this is the case?

Thats what i said! :clap:

[wrong]

The Amen break as used by every drum n bass producer and every jungle producer and his dog, is nicked from a 60's combo called the winstons.
Every breakbeat is nicked from somewhere..so it's just a techno version of that....who knows, in 5 years everyone might be making loopy shit using "the sims break"... oh no, they already are aren't they?

[Miromiric]

i dont sample techno and never have, but i am sooooooo sick of ppl trying to make cases out of every similar sound etc.



GET A LIFE!

that goes for mika and luka too!

lol you ****ing queer stabber! i will never forgive you dieter.

[gunjack]

lick me where i pee. :)

[Buttman]

wj henze is not newcommer who cant make a loop? you gotta know that theres out many loops cds, and what the hell happen?? they used the same one!

If he is a non-newcomer who CAN make a loop, how come he uses loop CDs?

[Buttman]

lick me where i pee. :)

Been there, done that.

[tioneb]

Sure techno is loop based techno. what i think is not realated in particular with WJH stuff, as i own some of his records an really like them.

Today, machines and softwares have evolved so much taht u can make tracks only with them. The 4x4 building of the track will make it sound "techno" and "loopy"...

But i dont really see the point in using a pre-made loop. A loop is not a sample, and is not like a guitar note/chord. A loop is a combination of that.

For example, I am almost sure intel have deposited their 4 notes melody. Sure the 4 notes can be used by everybody. But would u use the same 4-notes melody for promoting your brand???? Would b a total ripoff, and ppl like intel would put you on trial for this (and they would probably win).

So that's it. techno consists in using samples, synths to make a loopy music. But using premade loops, even free of copyright, is just really lazy and as a producer i wouldnt feel proud of using them. The fact that this or that producer is using the same loop, or has used it in first is just totally pointles, just make your own genuine stuff you beleive in and u wont have these problems.

[The Overfiend]

I'm not sure how much I like this topic,
Everyone jacks loops,
No need to single out Wjh for it. :eh:

[Miromiric]

Everyone needs to die!

[miss bass]

Everyone needs to die!

aww you do have a way with words dont you Miro

[dirty_bass]

I`m not a fan of loops, jacked or not. Sample CD`s advocate lazy programming.

[The Overfiend]

Creativity utilized in any form is the key. [/b]

[Sunil]

I`m not a fan of loops, jacked or not. Sample CD`s advocate lazy programming.

True. But how could you not equate this to being the same as sampling Bjork or a passage from a film? It is after all taking a section of music or a performance, which has been made or programmed by someone else - drum loop, sound, vocal, dialogue whatever it is. Where do you personally draw the line yourself ? Btw. I'm genuinely interested here, not having a swipe or anything.

A few general questions to people...

Sampling drum loops straight does seem to be the laziest form of sampling esp. in hard techno, what do people consider to be acceptable things to sample for a track or techno track?

If it's disguised well and no-one notices, is it alright?

[markus]

If it's disguised well and no-one notices, is it alright?

IMO that's pretty much it right there. I don't see any problems with sampling, obviously seeing how this is techno and all, that's what techno music is. Just do something interesting with the sample. Run it through effects, re-pitch it, re-eq, whatever. Or even sampling a small loop, sure go ahead, but at least do something, use effects on it, chop it up and make a new loop out of it, re-eq, or at the very least use it underneath everything in the track so it's just kind of filling things in a bit, rather than basically doing all the work for the track. But like I said that's just my own personal opinion.

I'm glad that this thread has moved to something a little more constructive. ;)

[dirty_bass]

True. But how could you not equate this to being the same as sampling Bjork or a passage from a film? It is after all taking a section of music or a performance, which has been made or programmed by someone else - drum loop, sound, vocal, dialogue whatever it is. Where do you personally draw the line yourself ? Btw. I'm genuinely interested here, not having a swipe or anything.

A few general questions to people...

Sampling drum loops straight does seem to be the laziest form of sampling esp. in hard techno, what do people consider to be acceptable things to sample for a track or techno track?

If it's disguised well and no-one notices, is it alright?

Well, as I have grown as a producer, personally, I find more satisfaction and honesty (it may just be that I am a control freak) in programming everything. Or at least as much as possible.
I don`t see the need to hang a sample (bork, bless her) I used 2 years ago to be representative of my current opinion.
To me, techno is like 70% percussion. Without a good beat (dance based) techno, falls down. So really programming your own percussion is a must, as it is the heart of the track. I mean, it`s not exactly hard to programme a rocking percussion pattern. So to rely on loops is just lazy.
Vocals on the other hand, are not easily reproduced.
Personally I do most of the vocals in my new tracks.
But alas, when I need a chicks voice, I can`t get those high notes.

Loops are a good starting point for new producers, admittedly.

[markus]

True. But how could you not equate this to being the same as sampling Bjork or a passage from a film? It is after all taking a section of music or a performance, which has been made or programmed by someone else - drum loop, sound, vocal, dialogue whatever it is. Where do you personally draw the line yourself ? Btw. I'm genuinely interested here, not having a swipe or anything.

A few general questions to people...

Sampling drum loops straight does seem to be the laziest form of sampling esp. in hard techno, what do people consider to be acceptable things to sample for a track or techno track?

If it's disguised well and no-one notices, is it alright?

Well, as I have grown as a producer, personally, I find more satisfaction and honesty (it may just be that I am a control freak) in programming everything. Or at least as much as possible.
I don`t see the need to hang a sample (bork, bless her) I used 2 years ago to be representative of my current opinion.
To me, techno is like 70% percussion. Without a good beat (dance based) techno, falls down. So really programming your own percussion is a must, as it is the heart of the track. I mean, it`s not exactly hard to programme a rocking percussion pattern. So to rely on loops is just lazy.
Vocals on the other hand, are not easily reproduced.
Personally I do most of the vocals in my new tracks.
But alas, when I need a chicks voice, I can`t get those high notes.

Loops are a good starting point for new producers, admittedly.

:clap:

[Joseph Isaac]

I tend to treat samples as a notes...

[Paul Nisbet]

word. you have no idea what the **** went on here with skull tunes last year that was a stupid mess.

i'm of your school when i found out the majority use pre recorded loops (sometime during that whole ST mess) i was very disillusioned.

cheers joseph

Totally, getting well too caught up in a minor detail, this type of thing just ends up a mud throwing contest, so really not sure what anyone can take out of this topic (apart from ill formed judgement on producers)...

Skull tunes topic last year started similer, and ended up going WAY to far.

Its as easy as that.

[gunjack]

lick me where i pee. :)

Been there, done that.

u wish ho.

[professor]

write your own sh-t, period.
if you need to jack, tell everyone about it...it's all a mater of "intellectual property" and "copywrite".
Those "royalty free" loop cds are fair game, but i agree with dirty on this...use of them would seem to boil down to lazy and sometimes unimaginative programming.
slag me if you like, but why "throw one in and mash it up to fill the space" when you could load up a drummachine or synth yourself and throw in your own loop to fill space???

[professor]

i know what i've said has already been said 10000000000times. probably should have kept quiet.

[The Overfiend]

I will defend Henze though, he has been one of my absolute faves, for years.

[killarava2day]

I will defend Henze though, he has been one of my absolute faves, for years.

God he's release alot of music over the years, some not soo good, but he hasn't been too worried about putting his music out there though.

[jake]

"DID GLENN WILSON USE A SAMPLE CD?"

[loopdon]

Not wanting to step on toes here but this isn't surprising about this release. I can point out a bunch of instances where he totally jacked samples from other producers (or it's a coincidence that they use the same patches on synths, drum machines), but I won't out of respect to WJH because there is already enough player hating going on in techno right now.


wjh puts out tunes very very often, he obviously relies on the cash flow from records more than other artists do :roll:

therefore i am not too surprised....

[djshiva]

like ben sims hasn't been jacking loops for years...

[Ritzi Lee]

like ben sims hasn't been jacking loops for years...

indeed!

[loopdon]

like ben sims hasn't been jacking loops for years...

indeed!

examples please. :shock:

[The Overfiend]

No, no examples. This isnt about lynching every one who uses loops and attempting to single out someone who does because face facts EVERYONE DOES. THIS WILL NOT TURN INTO A LYNCHING SESSION, BECAUSE I DON'T CARE WHO YOU ARE, WE ALL SAMPLE. WE ALL LOOP. PERIOD.