Production on the Cheap

[omen_owen]

I'm wanting to get in to production as I've had my dex for almost a year now and want to make my own stuff as well play other peoples. However, i have a serious problem in that i'm 17 and still at college, and hence a serious lack of money. I think i'm gunna be able to blag a copy of Logic off a mate, but would like sum hardware for sounds. What good stuff could i get 2nd hand at the lowe end of the price bracket.

I intend to be making mainly acid/dark techno (don't suggest a 303, its but a far off dream) and perhaps hardtrance/hardstyle, but i don't really know where i'll go till i get started. I'm just wondering what would be good to get me going?

[massplanck]

I'm wanting to get in to production as I've had my dex for almost a year now and want to make my own stuff as well play other peoples. However, i have a serious problem in that i'm 17 and still at college, and hence a serious lack of money. I think i'm gunna be able to blag a copy of Logic off a mate, but would like sum hardware for sounds. What good stuff could i get 2nd hand at the lowe end of the price bracket.

I intend to be making mainly acid/dark techno (don't suggest a 303, its but a far off dream) and perhaps hardtrance/hardstyle, but i don't really know where i'll go till i get started. I'm just wondering what would be good to get me going?

Maybe a second hand Yamaha RM1X would be the best bet?

[omen_owen]

just realised this is probably the wrong forum for this post...mods, please move this thread if u think its appropriate

[omen_owen]

I'm wanting to get in to production as I've had my dex for almost a year now and want to make my own stuff as well play other peoples. However, i have a serious problem in that i'm 17 and still at college, and hence a serious lack of money. I think i'm gunna be able to blag a copy of Logic off a mate, but would like sum hardware for sounds. What good stuff could i get 2nd hand at the lowe end of the price bracket.

I intend to be making mainly acid/dark techno (don't suggest a 303, its but a far off dream) and perhaps hardtrance/hardstyle, but i don't really know where i'll go till i get started. I'm just wondering what would be good to get me going?

Maybe a second hand Yamaha RM1X would be the best bet?
what sort of sounds will that give me and how much should i be looking to pay?

[dirty_bass]

on a low budget there simply is no better way to start than with a computer based set up.
And maybe a 303 clone as well.

[eyes without a face]

steve's right, computer based is the way to go if ur just starting up

[massplanck]

steve's right, computer based is the way to go if ur just starting up


I think i'm gunna be able to blag a copy of Logic off a mate, but would like sum hardware for sounds

[fatcollective]

yeah computer based production will get you into making basic tracks. i would start off with something like Reason, its very easy to use, but also you can make your own drum patterns, basslines, riffs etc...once you suss this out, i think then you will want to take the next step, which would probably be Cubase or Logic. In the meantime though there is no stopping you from getting a bit of midi tuition because once you understand that, you will be in a position to start hooking up your studio and adding a bit of hardware. just take one step at a time and you will get there in the end. good luck mate ;)

[massplanck]

I reckon get a small all in one box like the RMIX to have by your side just incase you dont like having your head fried by a computer monitor.

And you could actually have fun straight away. Just turn it on, press 'play' and fu.ckabout with a few knobs.

And you will probably feel more commited to a little purpose made box that you forked out money on as opposed to the latest cracked VSTi (Virtual Instrument)

And you could use it as a Midi Controller for the 1,000,000's of bits of software that people are going to recommend that you must use.

And you could always hook it up with your decks.

And if you wanted a change in scenery you could always get a set of headphones and take it with you to your grans.

I think the guy needs a PC and a small bit of hardware so that he can go figure the Hardware vs Software debate for himself.

[crime]

steve's right, computer based is the way to go if ur just starting up
I disagree,
I think you'd do better to get a bit of hardware together, everyone is making trax on computers these days.
you can get some pretty good bits of hardware cheap second hand these dayes, and to be honest personally, I'd much rather hear someone using one or two bits of kit, who've learned them inside out and is pushing that equipment to the limits than something someone has knocked up on a computer..

It might be a bit of outlay, but worth it in the end, and you'll find what you learned with the hardware will teach you a lot more than using software ever could..
Look out for:
cheap MPC 2000s
Electribe - S
Yamaha DX series synth
Casio CZ series synth
you can get an Akai S 3000 sampler for under £200 these days..

I also think buying hardware gives you the added commitment to writing music too.....

[eyes without a face]

i agree with u mark, but the guy stated that he has a serious lack of money. If he had of put "i have a budget of £1500 - £2000 etc etc " id of recommended hardware too, and with him being a student i think some of us presume the guy has a computer, so he cud get started straight away really

to the guy, like above if u got the money get hardware, if u dont have the money then u gotta work round it

[massplanck]

http://www.markarber.freeserve.co.uk/graphics/rmman.jpg

http://djservice.com/data/grafix/Produkte/korg/ES-1-montage_2.jpg

http://www.romislokus.com/photogallery/Photo08.jpeg


VERSUS

http://www.betelcentre.org/lect/Computer_Lessons_1.jpg

[eyes without a face]

hahahaha

i think we should b careful not to turn this into another hardware vs software war and lets keep the comments practical

[Evil G]

i started with a simple setup of a korg electribe and a juno 106 plugged into my dj mixer. after messing about with those for a year or so i felt i was ready to make the plunge into more serious hardware.

[dirty_bass]

Hardware is very expensive.
You will have to spend laods and laods of money to be able to get pro results.
I`ve been making music for 10 years now, and I`ve been both in a totally analogue and a purely computer based environment.
Quite simply, an investment in a good computer and sound card, can take you from amateur stage to complete pro production, with less limitations than hardware.
One isn`t better than the other, but a computer based setup, is more versatile, and will take you further, than hardware, for the same money.
Anyone who tells you that software cannot do the job, just doesn`t know how to use it.
You can get a wicked PC, Sound Card, and mini mixer Setup for under a Grand. that will be able to take you right up to a level where you can make pro, releasable tunes.
I doubt you could achieve this with hardware for the same money at all.

[Evil G]

the only reason hardware costs more is it's harder to steal.

[massplanck]

the only reason hardware costs more is it's harder to steal.

Imagine being able to steal 15 synths in one night? It would take all week for you to learn how to use them all. :shock:

@DB I assumed he had a pc and he asked for some 'hardware' suggestions. All this stuff about pro-results is pointless if you dont even know how to rock a little box that costs 200 quid. I use a computer for production too but everything musical I do comes from a box\ is recorded in and then touched up. I can pretty much sequence a song in the time it takes to play it this way. Sounds more musical too rather than relying on 50 different types of compression/eq automation etc etc to dig you out of the click and drag hole

I dont care if people use software, infact its essential but I get mad when people say that you dont need hardware at all. Its like someone who wants to get into graphic design being told not to go near a set of paints\crayons or something because they wont get pro-results. Its the start of the creative process.

Anyway a drum machine straight through your speakers sounds way more pro than any piece of software routed through a shite soundcard and then through your speakers.

[JE:5]

^ Agreed, I always used hardware since I started out but i've been using the computer recently and I hate it, that's why i'm buying some new equipment again. I just can't find the motivation to finish trax on software. Click, drag click, blue screen, oh bollocks there goes that excellent riff i've just been working on for the last three hours.

[dirty_bass]

Click, drag click, blue screen, oh bollocks there goes that excellent riff i've just been working on for the last three hours.
Get a decent PC, and don`t use so much cracked software..
Also, try saving Ctrl S every 10 minutes or so.

I know what you are saying about the whole hardware thing guys.
I learned the hard way too.
I started making music with an ST, a Juno 106, some guitar effects, a kawai drum machine, and a tascam 4 track recorder. I had to multi track using tape sync and do loads of bouncing down etc.
It was a great way to learn, but not necessary these days.
Most audio PC packages come with a software studio as part of the software package, so you don`t need to use cracked software.
And there are plenty of really pro , free plugins on the net.


Sounds more musical too rather than relying on 50 different types of compression/eq automation etc etc to dig you out of the click and drag hole
Well this is down to the way you work more than the software.
I play guitar, drums, and keyboard. but I don`t consider what I play on a live instrument any more musical than the stuff I program.

And the fact is, you don`t NEED hardware these days. aLthough it is nice to have it, I admit.

Going back ON TOPIC, tell us your budget mate, then we can best advise you.

[massplanck]

Going back ON TOPIC, tell us your budget mate, then we can best advise you.

I think we scared him off...

[Evil G]

don't get me wrong, i'm not anti-software. i'm just realistic about how much it costs. in the scheme of things, synths are relatively cheap, but mastering tools are relatively expensive, and this is true for both hardware and software.

[dirty_bass]

now if we are talking mastering I`ll take hardware over software any day

[borisXHL]

thats a great thread, iam thinkin about upgradin my pc or just savin some money to buy new one which will allow me to produce some stuff but my budget is kind of low so please experts tell me whats the recent pc setup i mean cpu, memory and stuff like that.. thanks.. ;)

[omen_owen]

Lots of suggestions which is always good ;)
Don't really have a set budget...however much i can cobble together really.£200-300. i already have a decent pc (not that briliant sound card but thats easily fixable) and i should be able to get logic for free. would it be better to get a drum machine and use vst's for basslines, acid noises e.t.c or to get a 303 copy type thing and use vst's for the beats??

[fatcollective]

if you got a decent PC, use that money to get a decent sound card...i know theres a big war bewtween hardware and software, but beleive me, you can make decent music with software...like i said earlier, using a PC is the best way of learning how to make a track, it will learn you how to sequence, how to make patterns, riffs, basslines, whatever you want...when you get to this point, you will be able to decide yourself whether you want to get some hardware, and the likely is that you will.....we started off years ago using an amiga...yes thats shite, but we learnt how to make a kick and a bassline....things progressed to using Reason and then Cubase and then getting a mixing desk and monitors...then a synth and some outboard fx's & compression...things just develop slowly and along the way you have learnt how to make a proper dance music! i just think in this day and age we are lucky that Pc/macs and good enough to be able to do all this, if you go back a few years ago there was no other option other than hardware....anyway, the decision is yours....GOOD LUCK either way ;)

[omen_owen]

i intend on getting a decent sound card but i want to be able to make stuff in ways other than sitting and staring at the screen. It just seems more fun if u have a box to play around with as well.

[xfive]

Snag a cheap midi controller like an Evolution UC33e or something... There are others if you want actual keys too...
This will give you some hands on and flexibility, as you can point the device at pretty much any parameter you can imagine.

[The Overfiend]

It's not the hard or the soft ware
It's the user.
people used to make the illest off atari software,
and red was mastered off a cassette.
bitches

[massplanck]

i intend on getting a decent sound card but i want to be able to make stuff in ways other than sitting and staring at the screen. It just seems more fun if u have a box to play around with as well.

:clap:

[dirty_bass]

Well, you can get a spankingly cheap pro card
The M-Audio 2496
for 70 quid all in!!
http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_gb/Audiophile2496-main.html

You should be able to pick up a good second hand hardware 303 clone such as the Freeform Analogue Technologies (FAT) FB383
For about 80 - 150 quid

You could then do with some cheap overdrive and chorus stomp boxes - go to your nearest cash converters for cheap as chips prices, fo rthe 303 to get a proper fat sound.

You can get some nice mini mixers for under a ton like this
http://www.turnkey.co.uk/tkweb/stockdetail.jsp?sku=SCRA-COMPACT4&context=WEB

The new logics won`t work on a PC, but fruity studio or sonar or the many other soft studio`s will set you back about a 100 squid too, or you can be naughty.

A good set of studio monitors should be high on your priorities if and when you get serious. Check the production forum for advice on this.

And midi controllers can be had in all shapes and sizes for a variety of budgets
http://www.m-audio.com/index.php?do=products.list&ID=maudiocontrollers
http://www.turnkey.co.uk/tkweb/stockdetail.jsp?sku=EVOL-UC33E&context=WEB

[tocsin]

i intend on getting a decent sound card but i want to be able to make stuff in ways other than sitting and staring at the screen. It just seems more fun if u have a box to play around with as well.

You will be staring at a screen there as well. It's just smaller.

[jonnyspeed]

Fruity Loops, Cubase or Reason is a good place to start.

You can blag various VSTi for using in Fruity and Cubase - Reason is packed full off its own goodies.

If you go the VSTi route theres a good tb-303 synth called Audio Realism Baseline. Microtonic, Ohmboys and Vanguard are a good start too. you can knock up something pretty decent with this lot.

good luck and use the force, luke.

[jonnyspeed]

The maximum hardware you really need is a cheap dumb midi keyboard or atleast a little midi-controller.

My vote is, if you get someything written using blagged software you can always spend your time thinking about what hardware you want, if any.

Good music comes from talent not whether you use hardware or software - so develop the talent before you start soending lots of money you don't have at the moment. And as a student, software is easy to carry around and replace if you get robbed - and doesn't fill your room up.

peace.

:cool:

[jonnyspeed]

http://www.audiorealism.se/images/Bass_Line_Shot_large.bmp
http://fr.audiofanzine.com/img/produits/normal/3/2/32980.jpg
http://breakpease.ducub.com/dtm/pi2/ohmskin.jpg
http://blog.livedoor.jp/tami606/e211e642.jpg

[jonnyspeed]

OR if you fancy using Reason from Propellerheads

http://www.supermidi.com/midiland/propeller/BigFront_01.jpg
http://www.supermidi.com/midiland/propeller/BigFront_02.jpg
http://www.supermidi.com/midiland/propeller/BigFront_03.jpg
http://www.supermidi.com/midiland/propeller/BigFront_04.jpg
http://www.supermidi.com/midiland/propeller/BigFront_05.jpg
http://www.supermidi.com/midiland/propeller/BigFront_06.jpg
http://www.supermidi.com/midiland/propeller/BigFront_07.jpg
http://www.supermidi.com/midiland/propeller/BigFront_08.jpg
http://www.supermidi.com/midiland/propeller/BigFront_09.jpg[/img]

[crime]

Bullshit advice from people who don't have a clue..

the "hardware is so expensive" excuse is such a copout...

I remember a time when you couldn't make music just on a computer, you had to get equipment together to make music, but it meant that you had to have a certain level of dedication to making music.. I managed it whilst I was homeless with no money so there's no excuse, this is why I say the "I Havn't got money for hardware" excuse is such a copout.. I bet you've got money for clothes, beer drugs and records.. some of us missed out on those things just to make tunes cos we were so passionate about it, we saved every penny just to buy kit.. now it's so easy to download a bit of software but not have a ****ing clue how to use it.. this it why there's so much fodder in the racks, cos everyone gets a copy of reason and thinks they're a producer...

[eyes without a face]

Bullshit advice from people who don't have a clue..

easy mate, that's a pretty elitist comment from someone such as yourself.... people have to learn somewhere and this is meant to be one of those places. Some people, including myself, literaly cant afford hardware, so its not bullshit, its practical advice and advice for someone who really wants to make music whilst not being able to make it by the means they wish too

[g]

Bullshit advice from people who don't have a clue..

the "hardware is so expensive" excuse is such a copout...

I remember a time when you couldn't make music just on a computer, you had to get equipment together to make music, but it meant that you had to have a certain level of dedication to making music.. I managed it whilst I was homeless with no money so there's no excuse, this is why I say the "I Havn't got money for hardware" excuse is such a copout.. I bet you've got money for clothes, beer drugs and records.. some of us missed out on those things just to make tunes cos we were so passionate about it, we saved every penny just to buy kit.. now it's so easy to download a bit of software but not have a **** clue how to use it.. this it why there's so much fodder in the racks, cos everyone gets a copy of reason and thinks they're a producer...
while i agree with your last sentence, there are many people out there who worked with hardware for many years and then later decided that they strongly prefer software. blanket statements about who has a clue really only clue the reader into you.

be that as it may, a software-based studio IS cheaper than hardware. especially when you consider that the person who started this topic already has a computer or obviously has access to one. when you consider all the ancillary non-instrument crap needed to make a hardware-based studio effective (outboard processing, mixer, cables, etc) "hardware is so expensive" is not a bullshit copout, it's an accurate statement.

[dirty_bass]

Bullshit advice from people who don't have a clue..

the "hardware is so expensive" excuse is such a copout...

I remember a time when you couldn't make music just on a computer, you had to get equipment together to make music, but it meant that you had to have a certain level of dedication to making music.. I managed it whilst I was homeless with no money so there's no excuse, this is why I say the "I Havn't got money for hardware" excuse is such a copout.. I bet you've got money for clothes, beer drugs and records.. some of us missed out on those things just to make tunes cos we were so passionate about it, we saved every penny just to buy kit.. now it's so easy to download a bit of software but not have a **** clue how to use it.. this it why there's so much fodder in the racks, cos everyone gets a copy of reason and thinks they're a producer...

ok, calm down

part of what your saying is true.
yes anyone can get cracked software etc
But not everyone can make a good tune.

Your comment is more based on the "I did it the hard way, so you must too, mentality". That sounds a little bitter.

Believe me mate, I did the same as you, scrimped and saved to get the hardware, borrowed time in studios etc
Took years to accumulate the kit, and then learn how to use it etc

Now some kid who does a music tech course for 2 years, and gets a high power pc for a grand, can be producing pro stuff in a couple of years, maybe 3 years.

THATS JUST NOT RIGHT, THEY NEED TO SUFFER FOR THEIR ART

So what?
If I could have used a PC back when I was learning I would have.
And I would have gotten a lot further a lot quicker too.
All you are doing is learning how to manipulate soundwaves in a way that ifluences human emotions.
Who cares how it is done.

The fact is, you can do it cheaper, and just as well with software.
If you are genuinly talented, then it will shine through. If you are a talentless gimp, then you will be able to make well produced stuff relatively easily and cheaply with a pc. but it will still be shit.

There is a certain subset of musicians who for reasons unknown adhere to the false premise that digitaly made or "computer" music or the tools involved imply a lack of creativity of inspired performance.
Technology in the hands of creative, intelligent individuals is a tool for art, not a hinderance. Being a member of the current millenia, I embrace this technology.

[g]

There is a certain subset of musicians who for reasons unknown adhere to the false premise that digitaly made or "computer" music or the tools involved imply a lack of creativity or inspired performance.
too true. and yet i suspect those same people would never accuse, say, Autechre for example, of lacking creativity or inspiration. ironic.

[fatcollective]

Bullshit advice from people who don't have a clue..

the "hardware is so expensive" excuse is such a copout...

I remember a time when you couldn't make music just on a computer, you had to get equipment together to make music, but it meant that you had to have a certain level of dedication to making music.. I managed it whilst I was homeless with no money so there's no excuse, this is why I say the "I Havn't got money for hardware" excuse is such a copout.. I bet you've got money for clothes, beer drugs and records.. some of us missed out on those things just to make tunes cos we were so passionate about it, we saved every penny just to buy kit.. now it's so easy to download a bit of software but not have a **** clue how to use it.. this it why there's so much fodder in the racks, cos everyone gets a copy of reason and thinks they're a producer...

ok, calm down

part of what your saying is true.
yes anyone can get cracked software etc
But not everyone can make a good tune.

Your comment is more based on the "I did it the hard way, so you must too, mentality". That sounds a little bitter.

Believe me mate, I did the same as you, scrimped and saved to get the hardware, borrowed time in studios etc
Took years to accumulate the kit, and then learn how to use it etc

Now some kid who does a music tech course for 2 years, and gets a high power pc for a grand, can be producing pro stuff in a couple of years, maybe 3 years.

THATS JUST NOT RIGHT, THEY NEED TO SUFFER FOR THEIR ART

So what?
If I could have used a PC back when I was learning I would have.
And I would have gotten a lot further a lot quicker too.
All you are doing is learning how to manipulate soundwaves in a way that ifluences human emotions.
Who cares how it is done.

The fact is, you can do it cheaper, and just as well with software.
If you are genuinly talented, then it will shine through. If you are a talentless gimp, then you will be able to make well produced stuff relatively easily and cheaply with a pc. but it will still be shit.

There is a certain subset of musicians who for reasons unknown adhere to the false premise that digitaly made or "computer" music or the tools involved imply a lack of creativity of inspired performance.
Technology in the hands of creative, intelligent individuals is a tool for art, not a hinderance. Being a member of the current millenia, I embrace this technology.

go on steve, i think you have just summed up this whole topic :clap:

[schlongfingers]

Software, hardware it makes no difference these days, it's what you do with it that counts. I do agree with the sentiment that people who don't pay for software tend to put less effort into learning the tool inside out.

[massplanck]

very well said DB. :clap: but I still feel that paying/saving for something is more worthwhile then downloading 10 new cracked VSTi's. And its this reason why hard techno sounds so shit lately. Not many people are delving deep into their tools... which doesnt happen when you pay 1600 for a synth.. its there sitting in the corner of the room for years staring at you to be used.. you cant get away from it (or the fact you forked out shitloads for it). :twisted:

[fatcollective]

Software, hardware it makes no difference these days, it's what you do with it that counts. I do agree with the sentiment that people who don't pay for software tend to put less effort into learning the tool inside out.

i would like to hear an example of a Hardware tune and a Software tune...how much diffrence will there be, of course there will be some...it would be like a champagne and wine tasting test...."oohh thats definately champagne" ...."erm...no its not ... its cheap wine" hahahahaha

[schlongfingers]

Software, hardware it makes no difference these days, it's what you do with it that counts. I do agree with the sentiment that people who don't pay for software tend to put less effort into learning the tool inside out.

i would like to hear an example of a Hardware tune and a Software tune...how much diffrence will there be, of course there will be some...it would be like a champagne and wine tasting test...."oohh thats definately champagne" ...."erm...no its not ... its cheap wine" hahahahaha

There are bad and good examples of both.. which kind of makes the idea of posting examples of both a bit irrelevant - no offence intended. There has been absolutely fantastic music made using both approaches.

One thing to bear in mind with software is, you can't polish a turd - if you want good, clear sounds, you need good clear samples to process in the first place - not 56Kb mono mp3's.

[fatcollective]

i know mate ...i was just foolling around...things were getting a bit serious in here :lol:

[fatcollective]

i think these days, a good combination of both are needed...a decent PC, running cubase, outboard FXs n compressor...maybe hardware drum machine for kick n hats, software drum machine for bits of perc...hardware bassline...couple of stabs n noises with software ...lead riff with a hardware synth...that sort of thing...best of both worlds...cant go wrong ;)

[schlongfingers]

Yeah, combination is probably best - though personally I'd only use it for mastering.

I'd say if you are gonna get hardware sound modules, go for synths primarily - kicks and hats are easily available as high quality samples.

Get Monitors!

[fatcollective]

ahh monitors...probably most important...i got a new set of mackie hr624's coming on monday...cant fuc*king wait!

[massplanck]

Get Monitors!

Hardware or Software ones?

[schlongfingers]

Get Monitors!

Hardware or Software ones?

Both, and a virtual midi controller with knobs and sliders to control everything on your hardware.

[massplanck]

Both, and a virtual midi controller with knobs and sliders to control everything on your hardware.

:lol:

lets leave it at that. The old software vs hardware question has finally been solved with the novel suggestion that we should be using both. :crackup:

[crime]

Yeah,apologies for the pissed up rant, the 8 cans of stella had something to do with it...

The point I'm trying to make here is the fact that software is so easily obtainable from the internet I personally feel that it has lead to a lack of commitment.. I have nothing against software, I just feel that what hardware can teach you has become seriously undervalued, and I personally think it's hard for someone to have a valid opinion on hardware when they have never used hardware..
I suppose as well I'm sick to the back teeth of getting demos that were blatently made with reason in the post that seemed very characterless, and this is the point... a few years ago, no two producers studio set up was the same, and this meant that the sound was also affected, and gave the artist another angle of individuality..
I have nothing against sofware having used Logic extensively in the past, I just like a hybrid of hardware and software, and I like to get demos in the post that have character...

[schlongfingers]

the 8 cans of stella had something to do with it...

Beer drinking hasn't been the same since the advent of aluminium, I feel that the developments in this field have made it a lot easier to be an alcoholic, back in the day... combination of both cans and traditional receptacles.

No, I hear you on the commitment issue and agree - it's like downloading a game, you get bored before you complete it and download another for free.

[Evil G]

i totally agree on the use both conclusion. i'm glad we can let that one rest.

but another bit to thow in to the cost discussion, is that if you are careful about what hardware you buy, it will retain some resale value, so you can always sell it again if it didn't do the trick for you. but with software, it's more like an expense than an investment.

[xfive]

Yeah I sorta learned that lesson when I bought my ESX.
It was either that or the MPC1000, and I ended up going with the ESX due to price (~$150 cheaper or so) and I didn't need all the midi features of the MPC.

The bad part was that the ESX's resale value was absolute shit compared to the MPC.
I ended up being able to get rid of it for $500, including a 128mb memory card and multi-card reader. Total value I paid was $800. It was only a couple months old too... maybe 10 hours of use total.

The MPC on the other hand holds it's value very well.

:neutral:

[omen_owen]

hahahaha

spawned a bit of a beast here

nice suggestions tho, seems ill have 2 do sum thinking ;) ;)

[Evil G]

Yeah I sorta learned that lesson when I bought my ESX.
It was either that or the MPC1000, and I ended up going with the ESX due to price (~$150 cheaper or so) and I didn't need all the midi features of the MPC.

The bad part was that the ESX's resale value was absolute shit compared to the MPC.
I ended up being able to get rid of it for $500, including a 128mb memory card and multi-card reader. Total value I paid was $800. It was only a couple months old too... maybe 10 hours of use total.

The MPC on the other hand holds it's value very well.

:neutral:

ya, i ended up giving my electribe to a kid just starting out for free.

my juno, on the other hand, has actually increased in value during the time i've owned it.