production

[dave h]

Hello mark. Could you give me a bit of guidance. I am a keen to start producing hard trance.My set up at the Mo consists of a Novation Super Nova 2 kbd, A Kork ER1 drum machine and an Atari ST for sequancing. I am in a bit of a dilemma as to what my next piece of equipment should be. I have £ 1000 student loan to splash out on either a AKAI Z4 sampler or a nice PC with CUbase and somthing like Harlion or wavelab. What would you recommend as the best option?



Also do you know what the Total Trance sample CD from Time and Space is like are there any good samples on it?

Could you recommend any good sample CD's for kicks and hard fat bass lines?



Also could you tell me who that tune is by with the sample `The truth often its hard to find`, aaa you know the one its got that big sexy LFO running through it. You played it in your set at Norths 5th birthday @ the emporium.



If you or anyone else could give their opinion on the above then I would be greatfull.



Cheers Dave H......

[MARKEG]

Get a PC!!!!!! F%%^%$^$%^$%^$$&^&%&CK the sampler!



All the German Italian trance is now created using 80% PC. You just can't get left behind on this audio thing mate...



Total Trance is good - I was sent it from T+S and it very good for the single samples (you import them into Halion on your PC and play them from the keyboard like a real sampler..). The percussion loops are OK but the basslines lack and the kicks are not too hot...



Don't worry though. Get this CD and your new PC and I think it'll keep you happy for at least a year!!! The key to good kicks and bass in hard trance is to sample them off you fave tunes where there's a clear sample at the beginning of the end. We used a sampled bass from Fluclicht 'Icarus' SHOKK mix on our recent MY$T:C DJZ thing on Massive and the kick was sample straight off a record too. I think the bottom end sounded tight....



With the PC you build up tonnes of samples on your hard drive and it's so easy to audition them in programs like acid.



If you need any pointers or techy advice let me guide you through it all when you get your PC. I'm sure other people on this site would love to help too...








Edited by: markeg3000 at: 10/25/02 10:47:09 pm

[sinner]

I LOVE ATARIS.



I was so happy with notator for so long I cant beleive I dont use it anymore.



It has huge limitations compared to modern pc software, but those machines took a pounding without ever giving up



Just think that Atari 1040st with an 8 Mhz processor handling tasks that you use a modern pc for today.



I agree that you should get a pc , but dont get rid of the Atari . It will be great during the learning curve, and I'm sure you will still get use out of it even with a PC.



There is a Notator (im assuming you are using notator) mailing list that you can join from notator.org that is very very helpful with all things, and if you are dying for storage on it, you can get an IDE interface for the STE from gem.win.co.nz/mario/hardware/ide.html





Mike
















You go in hard, and you go in fast.

[log the log]

i dont want to sound like a snob or anything... oh fck it i am a snob... but to me sampling a bassline is really lazy. i mean its one of the main parts of your track, its the first thing people skip to when they listen to your tune, so if you've used a sample off someone else's track, then its theirs, not yours, you know? surely when the dj swaps the bass and the new bassline comes in, you want people to go "sheet hot, thats the new <insert your name here> tune" not "fking hell another hennes and cold tune" its really not that hard to make fat basslines, and it is SOOOO worth the effort... there are a pantload of softsynths on the pc that can do proper fatness, as long as you compress em a bit your sorted... andreas kramer's bassline comes from vb-1, this is the softsynth bass guitar emulator that comes free with cubase! sure, its maximised, distorted, compressed, whatever, but thats why its called production !

[MARKEG]

hey, i'm close friend friends with andreas and his friend thomas pogadl and i'm afraid to tell you they sampled there bassline from an early trance track.... i could tell you from where but he told me to never tell.... believe me man, i'm not joking...



it all seems so cool to make your own bassline etc but even andreas k and (also most producers throughout the world) sample. House music/techno and dance music is based around sampling... you need to stop being blinkered and realise that creativity isn't damaged by sampling...



i used to think that until i realise the true power of it

[MARKEG]

perhaps you're not realising - hard trance mostly always has exactly the same notes for the bassline - ie an offbeat b-line... you'd never sample a b-line for techno... but you would for hard trance.. and then you'd maybe apply a pitch change or perhaps an eq change to make it fit with the kick you've sampled... this is the skill!!! making the kick sit with the bass!!! in my eyes it's exactly the same as using a 909 for a hi -hat - someone else has programmed it into the machine in the first place!!!



all h-trance trax at the mo are sampled basses + kicks, but changed via eq and other effects.... i believe that's why the genre is progressive so fast.... it's less about synths and keyboard skills and more about computers and programming!!!!

[log the log]

well... it depends which sort of hard trance you mean. HARD trance (eg trance generators and most of the italian stuff) or hard TRANCE (eg shokk, scot project, kramer - basically stuff with riffs). in HARD trance the bassline stays on one note and the tune doesnt really progress from the buh-wah-buh-wah stage, in hard TRANCE the whole point of the tune is the key change, this is the crux of the tune... this is where sampling basses (usually, but obviously not if you're andreas kramer) falls down, because its very hard to keep a sample sounding the same fatness at different pitches... not impossible but very hard. and tuning is a problem, because the tuning on the original sound will be imperfect, detuning is what makes stuff sound fat alot of the time, and when you pitch a sample of it up or down then the tuning suffers.

also i dont think im being blinkered... and i dont think creativity is limited by sampling - i love people like dj shadow, coldcut and hundreds of other hip hop/breaks producers who ONLY use samples - i just dont think that much HARD trance is very creative... i dont want to get into a bitchslap-fest here because i love and respect you as a dj and producer... but it isnt THAT hard to get a bassline sample to sit with a kick... little bit of compression, possibly lose a tiny bit of the lower end, move the sample back/forward a tiny bit... its half hour to an hours work... and the thing is, HARDtrance producers generally dont actually change the sound of the b-line that much... it still sounds like a hennes and cold or whatever (id say the best use i've heard of one is dj wag... listen very very closely to his ones on stuff like "on the run" and he's filtered it very cleverly and it even sounds fat when it drops!) but this is a rare case...

re: kramer, when thomas pogadl was over here i asked him (man i wouldnt shut up!) and he told me it came from vb-1... the bass isnt the same on all the tracks, maybe they use a combination of both?

i know it seems like im arguing with you but this sort of discussion can only open my eyes/ears/mind. the only thing i want is for my music to get better, and its f<>king superb to have this sort of opportunity to discuss these things with you. so please reply!

[baptismo]

greetings forum!

Loadsa common hard trance uses sampled basslines.. and they do always sound fat as f##k..



but dont you think that when you pitch shift a bass sample is often changes loads...?

Coz I love trance with melodies canin' around all over the octave... i need my bline to like go to 4,5 or more different keys... and to me, when a sampled bline goes down a few keys, or especially up.. it doesnt sound much like the sampled bline at the original pitch...



I always get my basslines off my synths, and then sample all the different keys in the octave onto my computer....

[dave h]

First- thanx for the advice on the PC. I have used a PC running Cubase and Wavelab before. But the PC I used was so slow, this put me of a bit, so I went back to using the Atari.



Second- does anyone know the best place to buy an audio PC from. I have been looking at the packages that Digital Village have to offer, would this be my best bet?



Third- Listen Log the Log its all well and good you banging on about creating your own bass lines for Hard Trance music. I am very interested as to know the type of material you produce and the bass lines you come up with? Do they sound as hard and Germanistic as a Hennes and Cold Bass line? Have these innovative bass lines that you are able to produce got that same EQ level and fatness that have set the standard and are on many Hard Trance records today? If so then why not post them on to this site so we can voice are opinions.

Im sorry if it seems I am having ago at you mate but why cant you take advice from Mark on this sampling issue? You say you respect his work then take his advice!!!



Dave H

[MARKEG]

No I do really respect the fact you're wanting to open a discussion on this bassline thing.... Great!



I'll reply later today cause I've got a few things to do!


Edited by: markeg3000 at: 10/31/02 1:46:56 pm

[log the log]

dave, maybe my basslines aren't as fat as messrs hennes and colds... but you made my point for me, they are on hundreds and hundreds of records and i am SOOO bored of them. and i would rather work for six months on one note of my own bassline to get it perfect than to perpetuate the endless repetition of that bassline, no matter how fat it is!

i am more than willing to take mark's advice (otherwise why would i be here) but taking someones advice and changing your opinions to suit theirs are very different.

[MARKEG]

yes log i respect that alot. make them if you can. but i simply haven't got the time to sit and make these basslines for hard trance cause they're very hard to do and they have to be 100% right. Get it wrong and you'll wasted the WHOLE track and your time making it. i have to be quick these days making tracks casue of my DJ schedule etc. i use sampled bass for all my hard trance now and add a few effects/distortion to give it my own character. but i'm also, like you working on my own districtive bass sound that i will one day perfect... but until then it's samples all the way...

[log the log]

ah see thats where im different cos i have f^^k all to do all week!!!

but i'm gonna try layering one of my own basses with a hennes and cold with all the bottom taken off just to get that lush ''vvvm'' sound... if its any good i'll stick it on here.