predefined loops or writing your own music?

[Ritzi Lee]

If you're making your tracks,
do you only use predefined loops for rhythms, and other sounds,
or just use your own sounds and write all paterns on the scratch.
Or a combination?


And why do you like it that way?

[Ritzi Lee]

For myself it's a combi.
But i like to avoid as much pre-loops as possible.
And sometimes it's just for some funny effects.

[fresh_an_funky_design]

definetlr writing your own shit. I only use loops if i want a fuller tune. Just have them in the background really fattens up and empahsises your tune


if you use predominately use loops its not really your tune, your just remixing.

[RDR]

whatever works. im not going to limit myself. If it moves ya then it works.

[dirty_bass]

Yeah, I prefer to use all my own shit. But sometimes you can glean something original from a loop if you cut it and reaarange it or warp it etc.

[maily]

i mostly write my own patterns, but if i use a loops it'll be one i've discovered myself,
never used a sample cd and don't intend to.

[j_s]

i tend to use loops if i want a 'real' feel to a part. like a bongo pattern, breakbeat or something that i can chop up. i find one shot samples can sound really un-natural when trying to program fluent lines.

as i see it, using loops imaginatively is no less creative than using samples. as long as it's you, not the loops that shape the track, it's all good....

[Ritzi Lee]

I also like to see some reactions from the people who only use loops..
there are lot of FL fanatics over here.

[schlongfingers]

I also like to see some reactions from the people who only use loops..
there are lot of FL fanatics over here.

How is that relevant?

I use fruity and very rarely do i use loops.

[Ritzi Lee]

I also like to see some reactions from the people who only use loops..
there are lot of FL fanatics over here.

How is that relevant?

I use fruity and very rarely do i use loops.

ins't that what it's used for??

[mrbenn]

I dont use fruity but I think its more for creating your own loops as opposed to using pre made ones

[dan the acid man]

i use a combination, but i usually change the premade loops around

[fatcollective]

i dont agree with people who completely use loops to produce there music, because thats bollox, its not producing ... its cheating.

i think its ok to to chop bits up and use the odd perc loop and add that to your own sounds. but to use ready made loops to make muisc is bollox.

[loopdon]

i do agree, yet i have the ever growing impression, that loads of 'modern' techno often does not consist of not much more than a rumbling sub and say 1-5 perc loops on top of it. whilst looking through sample cds like akai no kick/ techno trance essentials and so on, i am constantly finding loops i have heard before, often enough with not much done to them.

i can name several examples, from umek to liebing to sims, say the entire drum-loop liebing used for his 'tiga - sunglasses at night remix' can be found on the techno trance essentials cd, i couldn't believe it when i first heard it. and guess why umek's 'voices of africa'-series is named that way :doh:

i'd say lots of pros don't have that high moral standards :crackup:

at the moment i am using quite a lot of loops (u know, experimenting) and i find it very simple to create loops that sound very 'recordish' in very little time. but that isn't saying i am using them the way them pros are, i tend to try and change them at least a little, u know.

i suppose it's the use of loops to a certain extent that helped create for example that 'swedish sound' or loads of schranz stuff.

have a listen to some of the cds i listed and come to your own conclusions.

my 2 cents

[Craig McW]

To date I have only ever programed my own stuff. Simply because I feel I would be cheating myself to use loops. I want to create the best sound that I can on my own.

But in the future, who knows? maybe I'll find a way to use loops that doesn't conflict with my conscience.... until that day, programming all the way baby.

[schlongfingers]

I also like to see some reactions from the people who only use loops..
there are lot of FL fanatics over here.

How is that relevant?

I use fruity and very rarely do i use loops.

ins't that what it's used for??

:D no!!!!!!

Of course you can use it for that, if you're so inclined, but only in the same way you can use loops with Cubase / Logic / Reason etc etc

Have a look at the help file, gives you a bit more of an idea of what the program is about - http://www.flstudio.com/help/

[loopdon]

i would have thought acid was the techno world's 'musik maker' when using loops, not good ol' frooty.

you should defintely have a look at it, you might have been missing something. fruity has become a verrry nice tool to work with alltogether. :love:

[mrbenn]

I :love: Acid, even better is making tunes on acid whilst on acid.

Seriously though acid is a great tool for manipulating loops, I often create parts in Cubase or Reason then export them as loops into Acid to sequence them & add effects etc

[Mattias Fridell (emb)]

I also use the combo between my samples from the scratch & loops, the thing is i always use loops i´ve done myself.

It´s pretty rare that i find a good loop on a samplecd, but when i do i can slice it down to pieces and use the sounds.

[neilried]

Sometimes I use a combination fruity loops and reason to audition a loop of a groove or fill that Im loving and layer additional sounds over it till I have something of my own, remove the original loop and tweak to fill the gap it leaves.

Sometimes I get a bunch of loops of records and layer those up in Acid dividing them up into drum/bass and top/percussion groups and use subtractive EQing throughout and render them down so your left with 2 new "loops" one hats and percussion the other drums and rthym, then add midi track into a VSTi for B/line and plaster FX all over it.

Sometimes I do the same with all the loops from my aborted projects so Im creating something new out of my own loops then spend days using all the tips n techniques Ive read about on BAO trying to create my own super slick dark n chunky techno monster.

I dont think its cheating to use loops, its part of the learning curve but can understand why when people who sucessfully create their own stuff that sounds awesome get pissed off with people who call them selves producers by arranging other peoples loops. But as has been said its done by load of high profile producers. One of the sound banks I have at home has loads of loops found in cave records...

Hats off to those can do it on their own I think thast probably everybodies aspiration with this, I know its mine and will get there eventually but for the interim period I still wanna make tunes... :lol:


:shock: ...Most of the time I think f**kit and experiment with velocity, attack etc by beating the cat with a cheese grater, you can get some nice squelchy fx that way, I like the stabbing sound the nutmeg grinder preset makes personally...

[auditory hallucinations]

I think it's each to their own really...personally I use a combination.

Using recorded loops can definately help you start off on a groove (which can be the hardest bit to define)...then I add my own patterns over the top of that.

I then usually either remove the loop(s) completely, or filter them to smithereens so you couldn't recognise them anyway.

But a lot of techno / electronic music uses sampling, so I don't have a problem with them at all - it's what you do with the sounds that count.

[Ritzi Lee]

I dont think its cheating to use loops, its part of the learning curve but can understand why when people who sucessfully create their own stuff that sounds awesome get pissed off with people who call them selves producers by arranging other peoples loops. But as has been said its done by load of high profile producers. One of the sound banks I have at home has loads of loops found in cave records...
..

Thank you for mentioning this!
Using loops is a pure learning curve to get the feeling of how to create proper drum combinations and grooves...
It's the stage where people are exploring how to make tracks, and are not seriously thinking about releasing stuff.

And if you want to use tracks in a proffesional way; for instance to release on a label: That should be the moment to get you own creations done, by making your own patterns like the most over here mentioned..

[mrbenn]

neilried wrote:

I dont think its cheating to use loops, its part of the learning curve but can understand why when people who sucessfully create their own stuff that sounds awesome get pissed off with people who call them selves producers by arranging other peoples loops. But as has been said its done by load of high profile producers. One of the sound banks I have at home has loads of loops found in cave records...
..


Thank you for mentioning this!
Using loops is a pure learning curve to get the feeling of how to create proper drum combinations and grooves...
It's the stage where people are exploring how to make tracks, and are not seriously thinking about releasing stuff.

And if you want to use tracks in a proffesional way; for instance to release on a label: That should be the moment to get you own creations done, by making your own patterns like the most over here mentioned..


Well Said :clap:

I think using loops is a great way to learn to structure tracks & learn about grooves and drum patterns

[audioinjection]

i use loops sometimes

i just dont like to see producers who base all their work off of other peoples loops

[BRADLEE]

I use both. However if you're going to yank a loop, atleast make your own variation to it. Don't just flat out rip off the loop. That is my opinion on the subject.

[RDR]

who else thinks that this argument is the blasphemy that affects all dance music producers (mainly)?

its an argument that rears itself only irregularly. The reason is because i reckon that people find it hard to discuss, its a touchy subject.

for my own 2p worth i use both because i dont want a limit. but i try and mangle them or alter the frequency content.

Fruityloops is for doing both

i have written production tunes on fruity using loops (only one loop) and samples.

the main difference IMHO is that how different is using a synth that uses wave tables or using fruityloops to mangle one sample or even how different is using a loop and resequencing the samples or breaking the beat?

the Prodigy used plenty of loops run through an akai. So then how different is an akai to a rex file then if you think it is different, what is the difference between analogue and digital?

How can you break a loop akai style using purely analogue gear?

what about virtual analog?

there are lots of potential solutions to these questions

whatever you think, there have been plenty of truths concerning all these questions, they exist on both side of the divide.

no-one is right, no-one is wrong. whatever you like doing you should just do. if it sounds right then it is right.

lecture over, beware there will be questions at the end - (david williams - little britain)

:shock: :oops:

:opens can of worms:

[fresh_an_funky_design]

i've gotta say im sick of hearing some producer who's wacked a load of loops together, added a bit of effect and what have you then releases it. Its this sorta shit that will be the downfall of us.

It needs producers who are prepared to put the time and effort into a tune, by creating the own sounds and patterns. For example Jim Fish's tune on Humanoid 5. You can tell that he has put some serious time and effort into that tune, also Dirty bass and Dave the Drummers productions show the same sorta thing. I could list a hell of a lot more producers.. but im not gonna!

Basically loops are cool to learn with.. but dont release a tune made out of loops. If your truly good enough to release a record then your good enough to make the tune your own.

[Komplex]

i've gotta say im sick of hearing some producer who's wacked a load of loops together, added a bit of effect and what have you then releases it. Its this sorta shit that will be the downfall of us.

It needs producers who are prepared to put the time and effort into a tune, by creating the own sounds and patterns. For example Jim Fish's tune on Humanoid 5. You can tell that he has put some serious time and effort into that tune, also Dirty bass and Dave the Drummers productions show the same sorta thing. I could list a hell of a lot more producers.. but im not gonna!

Basically loops are cool to learn with.. but dont release a tune made out of loops. If your truly good enough to release a record then your good enough to make the tune your own.

Gotta agree.

Its worse when some of the high profile dj's do it just so they can put that "dj/producer" tag on their name... lamers.

[rounser]

However if you're going to yank a loop, atleast make your own variation to it. Don't just flat out rip off the loop. That is my opinion on the subject.
Exactly...in a similar vein, I think Tee Boy (of KvR) makes a lot of sense:



I constantly, constantly, CONSTANTLY, hear drum loops from sample CDs or other loop librarys that I recognice...very boring...programming loops yourself from existent material or make a completly new groove from synthesis is much more fresh imo.
Yeh, but imagine all the stuff you havent noticed! I admit its not very tasteful to drop premade beats into your track, but that isnt to say that these loops dont serve a purpose. I mean, taste 5 break beats, chop them up, layer bits, process bits, generally **** them up beyond recognition... and no one is going to recognise a thing.

If you are prepared to use premade drum samples, then i dont see any problem using premade loops as long as you do so to create your own beats. I do this ALL the time, and have no issue with it. Its not that i cant record and design beats from scratch (infact i do more often than not), its just that i prefer working with loops. Kits are a little bland in comparison, except maybe for the likes of the super kits (DFH, BFD etc).

Let me give you an example:

I was doing a track the other day using this exact technique. I started with a live drum loop i recorded a while back, chopped it up and locked it to a tempo. I then took a nice top loop off BT's breaks CD, cut it up and layered the snare and hat over those on my live drums. I then took a nice old break off a vinyl, did the same and fitted it in with the beat. After a while of toying around i got a nice beat together which had a live feel with a nice modern breaks sounds. No way i could have done this with out working with loops, since the variations in the different hits wouldnt be there.

And i guarentee there aint nobody would spot which samples i used. Not a prayer.
Also, without meaning to piss in his pocket, reading the practical, results-oriented attitude of Mark EG towards sampling on one of the early posts on these boards was quite liberating for me.

I also note that no-one's mentioned MIDI drumloops. You can cycle through these and try out ideas quickly, and it's pretty hard to call using them unoriginal because they're generally so basic (calling up a pattern that's simply a trigger on every second 16th to hear how it sounds like that is hardly plagiarism), and you're still going to be using your own choice of samples and dynamics.

Also, drum kits in the real world resonate, and electronic kits don't...so unless you're going for a clinical sound, that's good enough reason for considering using some sounds from breakbeats...the "air" between hits alone can add a lot, even if you borrow only that and loop it or something...

[slavestudios]

99% of the time i write me own. but sometimes i'll nik summat from a track. almost always try & bend it outta shape though. jus lifting other ppls loops is too lazy

[JohnnyDigital]

i think is very hard to create a track only using loops... at least for me (i'm doing psytrance, goa and full on)

on most i use a perc loop to spice things up in a break or so...

but that's 6 to 12 sec in a song that can go up to 6/12 mins...


when i begun i tryed using acid and some loops, but never got anywhere with it


maybe acid would be helpfull to give some life to my old tracks... i might try that sometime


joão

[eyes without a face]

to me a good producer uses whatever tools he/she has available to them... if this means using pre-made loops in the mix then wikid, go for it, as long as it sounds wikid and really does something then its all good, but as other's have said just throwing the loop straight in is lazy, work that mo fo up a bit, add blines and synths that you've wrote ontop and really mix it up, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that at all

im glad someone mentioned Jim in there as his stuff is exactly what im getting at, there's nothing nicer than hearing synth lines/pads etc that have been worked out from scratch, i make a point of doing it myself 99% of the time, and perc loops are as far as i go when using loops, there is no denying there are some fantastic loops out there available to use and manipulate in the best way u can

loop usage is a tricky subject but i gotta say im pro-loops these days as long as they are used correctly/originally!

[The Overfiend]

i dont agree with people who completely use loops to produce there music, because thats bollox, its not producing ... its cheating.

i think its ok to to chop bits up and use the odd perc loop and add that to your own sounds. but to use ready made loops to make muisc is bollox.
precisely.
I think that unless you can program a loop from scratch you shouldnt be able to use a loop. F*ck that. I sat there and made my own patterns for 2 years before realizing people used loops and better samples and such. Every one should crawl before you walk man.

[AcidTrash]

I also like to see some reactions from the people who only use loops..
there are lot of FL fanatics over here.

How is that relevant?

I use fruity and very rarely do i use loops.

ins't that what it's used for??

I've heard better tracks made with FLoops than a lot of kit jocks efforts.

Using sample loops as a foundation for your idea is fine. it's not cheating at all. Personally I like to use half loops and put my own kickdrums on just to fatten up the sound. admittedly the better i get the less i do it.

[Komplex]

I also like to see some reactions from the people who only use loops..
there are lot of FL fanatics over here.

How is that relevant?

I use fruity and very rarely do i use loops.

ins't that what it's used for??

I've heard better tracks made with FLoops than a lot of kit jocks efforts.

Using sample loops as a foundation for your idea is fine. it's not cheating at all. Personally I like to use half loops and put my own kickdrums on just to fatten up the sound. admittedly the better i get the less i do it.

Using your own work as a foundation is fine, and maybe adding a short loop deep in the mix to fill out the empty spaces is ok.

Using some sampled loop as a foundation certainly is not fine. Its lame, plain lazy, boring and unoriginal :)

[loopdon]

i dont agree with people who completely use loops to produce there music, because thats bollox, its not producing ... its cheating.

i think its ok to to chop bits up and use the odd perc loop and add that to your own sounds. but to use ready made loops to make muisc is bollox.
precisely.
I think that unless you can program a loop from scratch you shouldnt be able to use a loop. F*ck that. I sat there and made my own patterns for 2 years before realizing people used loops and better samples and such. Every one should crawl before you walk man.

man, i think that's exactly my story, m8!

[Basil Rush]

i dont agree with people who completely use loops to produce there music, because thats bollox, its not producing ... its cheating.

i think its ok to to chop bits up and use the odd perc loop and add that to your own sounds. but to use ready made loops to make muisc is bollox.
precisely.
I think that unless you can program a loop from scratch you shouldnt be able to use a loop. F*ck that. I sat there and made my own patterns for 2 years before realizing people used loops and better samples and such. Every one should crawl before you walk man.

And no-one should program a synth line till they can play the keyboard either goddamnit :)

I can never figure this one out. I mean if you make a track with a set of loops and you play it to someone and they jump around whilst it isn't all your creativity it's still a good track.

So maybe not using loops is in some ways a kind of personal satisfaction thing.

Of course if you have the craft down so you can make loops that sound as good as the ones in commerical libraries then you have one up on an awful lot of people as far as being able to do whatever your imagination can conjure up.

These days though I find my imagination far more limited than my ability to create the sound in the end. What i need is an imagination library :)

[Ritzi Lee]

Aight aight! :D

But now I see a topic like this:
http://www.blackoutaudio.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=30025
Can we see this as a good example on how it shouldn't be done?
Most of these kind of productions rely on using loops layer over layer,
and every time using the same method....


:nono:

[loopdon]

what's up, ritzi. ;)

i'd say loads of modern tech is very very loop-based, i leart that esp. when listening to sample-cds with perc-loops on them.

i myself use loops as well, just trying things and stuff.

often enough i start with several loops and find one by one dropping out until the tune's finished, leaving me with a hihat loop or something.

if one has some practice, though, i think there's no problem in creating one's own perc-loops, even if that only means using the frooty randomising feature on a synth's perc-patches (see sytrus for example).

i think it's mainly about the ability of a producer to make you bounce.

i reckon there's people who couldn't move a floor with their productions even if they used a squilllion loops.

:cool: