A true pioneer?

[Buttman]

Just out of curiosity.. :arrow:

[miromiric.]

steve reich overall, cause he introduced minimalism to western world.
jeff mills for modern techno, cause he implemented minimalism in it.

[gunjack]

innovation is a myth.

[Dustin Zahn]

There were so many people doing really different things at first. To try and pinpoint it on a certain person is kinda hard and redundant.

I'm kind of surprised no one looks towards Glenn Wilson as a founder in this "modern" world of techno. Afterall, everybody from Beyer to the UK boys had their start on Planet Rhythm.

[Adverse]

glenn is very undercredited.

[BritishMurderBoy]

techno is a fordist genre of music....

gerald ford was a true pioneer...............

[TripleX]

glenn is very undercredited.

he defenetly is.
he´s a genius :mrgreen:

[sinner]

I voted Kraftwerk, just because of they way they started molding things in the 70s for people today. Almost every single kraftwerk track was at the very least 10 years ahead of its time, and the first time I ever heard a kraftwerk track back in 85 or so, i was hooked for good.

Im not saying that other people havent given techno a whole hell of alot, its just kraftwerk was standing there all alone for a long time, and that really says alot for them

[miromiric.]

there r some ppl who made weirder music then kraftwerk like 20 years earlier, but noone knows shit about them.
like this guy(i dont know his name, i gotta call my music teacher for that), he wrote music for 15 machines he invented back in 1916. he then let the machines work and played violins and piano.
now wasnt he a pinoeer or what?

[BritishMurderBoy]

so if the concensus is that it was "someone else" who are they?

[BritishMurderBoy]

no one gonna comment on my gerald ford reply?

[Dustin Zahn]

No man, I totally agree with you on your approach. BMB is right.

[BritishMurderBoy]

thank you dustin,

i don't want to sound arrogant (honestly im not) but for all those who don't know and are interested here is a brief run down of fordism....

gerald ford was the owner/chairman of ford cars run mainly out of detroit..

he gave birth to the concept of mass production and for a long time it was considered to be the pinicale of manafacturing techniques...

mike banks and another one of the fab four, i forget who, both worked for ford in detroit and there is a urban myth that suggests that they developed "techno" from listening to the repitious sounds of the machinery they were working alongside.... I actually rekon there is probably a lot of truth in that... anyway

so if you believe all that arguably gerald ford had a lot to do with the early techno sound.....

i have to admit when ever i try to put a mental image to techno it is of a big machine pumping out some mundane consumer good... ever so slightly satirical i know....

Kraftwerk were similarly influenced by modern industry.... germany developed a huge manafacturing base after the second world war and it grew well into the 70's....

If you want to go even further birmingham, to some regarded as the home of british techno, also has a big mafacturing sector.. In fact i think i read somewhere that birmingham was twined with detroit (it wouldn't suprise me - but don't quote me on it)

ever heard of rover cars? the only factory in the world that makes them is in birmingham............

thats why this genre fasinates me in every possible way...

hope i haven't sent any of you to sleep... [end of history lesson]

dan.b

[rpmiller]

I totally agree there is a correlation between industrial areas and the music within those areas. I think maybe growing up in an area heavily industrialised influences your outlook on life and consequently music.

Many industrialised areas have spawned producers of music with an industrial edge, like you said birmingham, detroit, a large number of german cities are highly industrial, and a lot of the music coming out of them has elements of this in it. Where i come from (Oldham), there is a lot of industry, and same in the surrounding areas, escpecially yorkshire, leeds and huddersfield in particular, and there is a great deal of techno artists and clubs in these areas (the orbit for one).

[sinner]

Gerald ford was the 38th president of the united states from 1974-1977

Henry ford started the ford motor company

[BritishMurderBoy]

lol, my apologies

u are dead rite...

wasn't gerald ford the disabled one....

[now the histroy lesson has ended :lol: ]

[miromiric.]

if u ll take ford for innovator we ll have to go much much more back in time, to the discovery of the first primitive tools our ancestors used.

and that is a good way to understand what Techno really is.

[BritishMurderBoy]

yeah quite,

but i thought it was an interesting observation.... maybe the next ford advert will have death before surrender playing in the background....

[miromiric.]

mark, mark and butty i want to hear what are your thoughts about this. :!: :arrow:

[Adverse]

about techno being fordist?

uhh it's music. i don't know.. never thought about it in that perspective as for pioneers i say there aren't many these days. as for who has pioneered? i'd say ****ing cari lekebusch and cisco ferreira and colin mcbean were very instrumental in certain areas of europe, tony child, karl o connor, james ruskin and claude young have shaped a sound that cannot be overlooked.

glenn wilson has opened the new talent door soo many ****ing times it's unreal. not to mention setting the bar many a time when it comes to hard floor crushing tracks..

detroit has a place on that list as an origin but so does eastern europe.

[Patrick]

Hey Buttie, I'm curious. Why did you put Jeff Mills and Juan Atkins, Kevin Saunderson, Derrick May and the D gang as seperate choices ? To my mind they are all intrinsically linked to each other, taking it in turns to influence each other. For example, Mills influenced the Bellville Trio when he played as The Wizard on local radio. He was in turn influenced by their productions and took 'their' (or the Detroit) sound on to another level along with Mike Banks and UR etc. and, as Miro said, by introducing the minimalist element to the sound. :?:

[Buttman]

Hey Buttie, I'm curious. Why did you put Jeff Mills and Juan Atkins, Kevin Saunderson, Derrick May and the D gang as seperate choices ? To my mind they are all intrinsically linked to each other, taking it in turns to influence each other. For example, Mills influenced the Bellville Trio when he played as The Wizard on local radio. He was in turn influenced by their productions and took 'their' (or the Detroit) sound on to another level along with Mike Banks and UR etc. and, as Miro said, by introducing the minimalist element to the sound. :?:

Because Jeff is crazy. He even manufactured Axis sandals!

[Adverse]

haha haha now that is pioneering!

[MARKEG]

axis sandals!?!?! hahahahahhahaha

oh my god what a load of rubbish

i'm gonna make blackout audio vibrators to shove up his ass

[Patrick]

Ha ha. Can't argue with that logic. He gets my vote then !

[MARKEG]

why only these guys on the list?? there are so many people out there who have done just as much as all of these guys in there own little way but never get the props.

as far as i'm concerned there's plenty more people out there who've done just as much for techno as these lot. juan atkins applied the word techno to the music. that's pretty pioneering. but he's the same as anyone else out there who has their own slant on music and is trying to push their sound forward. he just came up with a catchy word, that's all. the press made techno into what it is.

jeff mills has his own pioneering slant on music. regis has his own pioneering slant on music. glenn wilson has his own slant pioneering on music. woody mcbride has his own pioneering slant on music. so does any other producer who manages to work for years and craft their own sound away from the norm. i could go on and on and on.

and so they are all pioneering in their own right. as far as pioneering the 'techno' genre goes, well that's just not possible because it's just such a huge genre. it mean so many different things to so many different ppl. no single person pioneered techno, that's for sure. it's different for different people. and it certainly wasn't all down to one of the above list.

techno is a combined force. there's no way i can cast a vote here.

[Buttman]

and so they are all pioneering in their own right. as far as pioneering the 'techno' genre goes, well that's just not possible because it's just such a huge genre. it mean so many different things to so many different ppl. no single person pioneered techno, that's for sure. it's different for different people. and it certainly wasn't all down to one of the above list.

techno is a combined force. there's no way i can cast a vote here.

That was what I wanted to hear =D

[BritishMurderBoy]

so why is it all still considered techno?

[TripleX]

axis sandals!?!?! hahahahahhahaha

oh my god what a load of rubbish

i'm gonna make blackout audio vibrators to shove up his ass

my dad could deliver the motors :lol:

[crime]

Subhead are always pushing it forward...

sideways backwards inward and outwards too.....

[gunjack]

dotcom is a pretty shitty label though...

[crime]

dotcom is a pretty shitty label though...

I dare you to say that to Phil's face, and let me watch from a safe distance... that would be pretty funny.....
:wink:

[MARKEG]

welll i've always really liked subhead stuff. how come you think dot.com is so s**t then?

[miasma man]

I don't really know enough about some of those guys but I put the D gang etc. If I was more Techno educated I could make a better judgement I suppose.

Means I gotta sort it out!

I think Mike Oldfield and Jean Michel Jarre have done a lot for electronic music (Techno) and would submitted "someone else" but their stuff isn't really about today I suppose.

[Louk]

for techno cari lekebusch

**** knows why just i like his tunes and they influence me

and sound well different

also kay d smith for the habit of distorting a kick drum so loud it makes you want to eat granite

Louk

[crime]

I don't think you can pin it on any one person, and everyone has different point of view, depending on what kind of [Techno] music they're into... A producer who one person sees as an innovator can be seen by someone else to be holding things back...

I feel there's a lot of unknown people who are doing excellent stuff thats really pushing things forward, they just need the people to hear them..

[crime]

for techno cari lekebusch

**** knows why just i like his tunes and they influence me

and sound well different



To what? Call me a tired old cynic, (and no disrespect to Lekebusch) but a lot of the loop stuff sounds like exactly what labels like Reload were doing much better 7 years ago.. Early advent used to really rock on this kind of tip around that time too, and yet they don't seem to be doing anything that different these days ....It seems to me like there's a techno formulae, and anything that steps out of this isn't accepted by a lot of people into techno... Didn't Jeff Mills say "Techno is sounds you've never heard before?".. I hear a lot of djs and I'm afraid to say, a lot of the time I just hear the same sound, again and again..
anyway *rant over*
:wink:

[Adverse]

i think these days you are right. the first 15 releases on hybrid i cannot dispute though.

[detfella]

karlheinz stockhausen

[miromiric.]

....It seems to me like there's a techno formulae, and anything that steps out of this isn't accepted by a lot of people into techno...
anyway *rant over*
:wink:

ya man! :D

[Esox Lucius]

kraftwerk definetly, although there are other artists who i think deserve it just as much like tangerine dream etc.

[gunjack]

dotcom is a pretty shitty label though...

I dare you to say that to Phil's face, and let me watch from a safe distance... that would be pretty funny.....
:wink:

its been said. :roll:

subhead stuff is cool, but for me dotcom is really cheesey. and i know phil really cant stand me, and thinks i am talking shit, but i am just being honest.

[gunjack]

hey MH i didnt realize that was you... you know phil is back here in japan right? dude got him a new name :lol: anyway SIZE 9 was THE subhead jam for me. but when i listen to dotcom i feel like its real simple and kinda goofy...

phil had me round to his house a few times back in the day, but when he heard what i said about him and toby at tresor christmas party (said i felt the music was boring) a few years back he got pissed and never spoke to me again, i guess i dont blame him, but i am a frank guy, and if i didnt like the music, why would i say i did? s h i t, the guy told me str8 out when he didnt like my stuf.....

back on the subject though i think that it is impossible to attribute the evolution of techno to just a speceific group of artists.... there were endless factors leading to the music we have today.

[Sunil]

[quote="crime"Call me a tired old cynic, (and no disrespect to Lekebusch) but a lot of the loop stuff sounds like exactly what labels like Reload were doing much better 7 years ago.. Early advent used to really rock on this kind of tip around that time too, and yet they don't seem to be doing anything that different these days ....It seems to me like there's a techno formulae, and anything that steps out of this isn't accepted by a lot of people into techno... Didn't Jeff Mills say "Techno is sounds you've never heard before?".. I hear a lot of djs and I'm afraid to say, a lot of the time I just hear the same sound, again and again..
anyway *rant over*
:wink:[/quote]

Yeah but Lekebusch and co. make these records more as mixing tools than anything else, there is quite a lot of depth to his tracks and his attention to detail and programming(Drumcode 10 for example) has always been top standard. Out of all the Swedish producers Lekebusch's ideas have always been more out there than the rest, he can make a wide range of stuff and often incorporates many different styles of music into his tracks..

[crime]

Yeah but Lekebusch and co. make these records more as mixing tools than anything else, there is quite a lot of depth to his tracks and his attention to detail and programming(Drumcode 10 for example) has always been top standard. Out of all the Swedish producers Lekebusch's ideas have always been more out there than the rest, he can make a wide range of stuff and often incorporates many different styles of music into his tracks..

It still sounds like pure product than anything else, and I think the popularity of this kind of stuff is down to the fact that it's easy to mix.. Fair enough having dj tools, but you've got to have the skills to go with it, and to be honest it ends up with every dj playing the same records, trying to do the mills imitation or blending trax together which is pretty boring... How many different styles of music can you incorperate into a banging loop? And before you start saying "Jazz" and "Funk" I don't really think stealing a one bar loop really indicates any diversity.. I like stuff hard, but it's gotta be interesting, and have movement and change... I've always wondered this with loop records, why bother to cut a whole side when just a lock groove would have done...
This is why we've ended up with a scene thats just full of people who all want to be up there djing, whilst the people who were just digging the music have all gone home... Nothing wrong with wanting to DJ, but I wouldn't really say that any of the hard loop producers are doing anything that wasn't being done 5 years ago.... The real innovative stuff is probably pretty unpalatable to most techno crowds unfortunatly, some would say it's unlistenable, but you would have never heard anything that sounds like it before.. That's TRUE innovation...

[Adverse]

great post crime

[MARKEG]

crime for president :D

[herman]

something i always find a little strange with these kind of discussions is the complete lack of mention to any funk artist's even to someone as pivitol as james brown or george clinton , this is meant to be dance music after all isn't it?

[Sunil]

It still sounds like pure product than anything else, and I think the popularity of this kind of stuff is down to the fact that it's easy to mix.. Fair enough having dj tools, but you've got to have the skills to go with it, and to be honest it ends up with every dj playing the same records, trying to do the mills imitation or blending trax together which is pretty boring... How many different styles of music can you incorperate into a banging loop? And before you start saying "Jazz" and "Funk" I don't really think stealing a one bar loop really indicates any diversity.. I like stuff hard, but it's gotta be interesting, and have movement and change... I've always wondered this with loop records, why bother to cut a whole side when just a lock groove would have done...
This is why we've ended up with a scene thats just full of people who all want to be up there djing, whilst the people who were just digging the music have all gone home... Nothing wrong with wanting to DJ, but I wouldn't really say that any of the hard loop producers are doing anything that wasn't being done 5 years ago.... The real innovative stuff is probably pretty unpalatable to most techno crowds unfortunatly, some would say it's unlistenable, but you would have never heard anything that sounds like it before.. That's TRUE innovation...

I agree with you on your lock groove point, many loop techno records need to only hang around for about a quarter of the time they do. What you are missing here though is the subject of this thread which refers to innovators and Lekebusch has undoubtedly been an innovator to some degree. Whether he still is is another story, innovative would probably not be the word, although he still makes some very good records. The hard loop was dismissed in the same way five years ago as well but it's still here, no-one claimed that it's all innovative and just because Mills started something doesn't mean that we all have to say that's a Mills imitation, that's like saying that all dub music is just a Lee Scratch Perry imitation and that they should all move on. Mills just happened to be the creator of it that's all, some people now make good stuff, others make shit stuff, many producers though have evolved.

Let the people who innovate stand up and be counted then, and if the music becomes more palatable to the techno crowds then great, part of the resposibility lies with DJ's playing and pushing new styles of techno or with labels who are willing to support new styles of techno, the rest just lies with the crowds and if they are willing to accept it. Hard looped techno is probably more popular than it has ever been, and if people are into it you can't really argue with that...

[crime]

I agree with you on your lock groove point, many loop techno records need to only hang around for about a quarter of the time they do. What you are missing here though is the subject of this thread which refers to innovators and Lekebusch has undoubtedly been an innovator to some degree. Whether he still is is another story

Fair point



The hard loop was dismissed in the same way five years ago

I remember it being bigged up myself, as it generally is...



just because Mills started something doesn't mean that we all have to say that's a Mills imitation, that's like saying that all dub music is just a Lee Scratch Perry imitation and that they should all move on. Mills just happened to be the creator of it that's all, some people now make good stuff, others make shit stuff, many producers though have evolved.

Again, fair point..



part of the resposibility lies with DJ's playing and pushing new styles of techno or with labels who are willing to support new styles of techno, the rest just lies with the crowds and if they are willing to accept it.

Big up to Jerome Hill (Don't) on that tip, as a dj playing really good new sounds to people and playing them well...



Hard looped techno is probably more popular than it has ever been, and if people are into it you can't really argue with that...

Personally, I think popularity dosn't neccesarily mean something is good or innovative..

I suppose it's all subjective really, but, even as people can be innovative for their time, surely we should be looking to the future, not who innovated in the past....

[Sunil]

>The hard loop was dismissed in the same way five years ago

I remember it being bigged up myself, as it generally is...

We must have been reading different magazines :) although i'm referring more to interviews with certain producers as opposed to record reviews. The manner in which hard techno was dismissed then was the exact same as now..


Personally, I think popularity dosn't neccesarily mean something is good or innovative..

I suppose it's all subjective really, but, even as people can be innovative for their time, surely we should be looking to the future, not who innovated in the past....

I agree, Cliff Richard sang crap songs and people still liked him! Just because something is popular doesn't mean it's good, you are right. My point here is just a simple one really- people are still really going for hard looping techno regardless of whether it's innovative. In terms of looking back at who innovated in the past I think getting caught up too much in that is pointless, it doesn't really matter that much as most of these producers could be people you don't even listen to anymore, people who may not have any relevance in what kind of music you make today, their influence can often be overstated just because some journalists feel the need to cross reference every 5 minutes. Techno has been shaped by loads of people and there's loads of styles out there, as you said it's all subjective..

[gunjack]

We must have been reading different magazines


reading dance rags is a good way to stay confused 8)

[crime]

I suppose anyone who made music in their own way, got it released and affected some people is a pioneer in their own way...

[gunjack]

to be quite frank, this whole wonderlust about "innovation" is a little old.... i feel innovation is a myth. folks ALWAYS have to carve their own niche to get in where they fit in.... i subscribe to the notion that techno was found rather than founded.

[serox]

i still like what Acardipane was/is making is amazing. i think he is still ahead of many people when it comes to productions.


i eat this sh!t.

[crime]

i still like what Acardipane was/is making is amazing. i think he is still ahead of many people when it comes to productions.


i eat this sh!t.

Now your talking! Love the "Metal Man" thing he did with the Horrorist....

[Sunil]

i still like what Acardipane was/is making is amazing. i think he is still ahead of many people when it comes to productions.


i eat this sh!t.

Now your talking! Love the "Metal Man" thing he did with the Horrorist....

I don't know loads of his stuff, i know I probably should though. Have to say I was disappointed by his album on Tresor

[Buttman]

Who is Acardiplane?? Never heard of him/her/them/it.

[crime]

Marc Acardipane, the guy who runs PCP records, now renamed acardipane records (Is this the case? Correct me if I'm wrong)... really hard brutal stuff, they've been there since back in the day...

check: http://www.acardipane.de

[crime]

I don't know loads of his stuff, i know I probably should though. Have to say I was disappointed by his album on Tresor

You talking about the Mover album yeah? yeah, I think you gotta be really into that whole "Doomcore" style to get into the album, liked a couple of trax of it myself.... wouldn't have called it the most innovative thing I've heard, but, likesay, liked a couple of things on there...

[serox]

well he has about 20 alias's :)

he has made alot of techno and worked with alot of people. yes he also makes doom,terror and speed.

but if you check out some of the music he made 10 years ago, its techno today. also have a listen to some of the stuff he does live (hes been doing it live like 10 years) great stuff.

yes he owned PCP but changed name too ACA.

he is the king.

[death on a stick]

I got the PCP EP on R&S a couple of weeks ago, nice stuff.

[WEZ]

KRAFTWERK ,

:D

[serox]

yeh im sure most people have some of acardipanes records without knowing it is him.


alias's he uses that i know of.

mover
E-Man
Superpower
Pilldriver
No Sukkaz
miro
reignMescalinum United
Marshall Masters
Rave Creator
Tschabos

[Adverse]

i heard this mescalium united record with the aphex twin remix last month ... great tracks. i'd sure like to hear more.

[acg3]

Lost 9 on Cold Rush is still one of my favs.

PITCH HIKER!

[Sunil]

You talking about the Mover album yeah? yeah, I think you gotta be really into that whole "Doomcore" style to get into the album, liked a couple of trax of it myself.... wouldn't have called it the most innovative thing I've heard, but, likesay, liked a couple of things on there...

Yeah that was the one alright. A friend of mine who loves his stuff was well into it, but as you said he is already down with the Doomcore buzz, not to mention Speedcore,Killcore and whatever cores there are out there! I guess I did expect more, I liked a few tracks but expected the album on a whole to do a bit more for me...