Concensus on Ableton DJ sets? Surgeon, Ho, Cowie, etc..

[djshiva]

i'm pretty sure this is the right section of the forum, this isn't so much a production question as it is a question regarding what many techno djs/producers are doing these days.... forgive me if this is the wrong section...

so i'm wondering what is the concensus amongst the techno community regarding dj sets or "live remix" sets performed with Ableton Live?

Surgeon is doing it, Ho is doing it, i've heard Hawtin might be using Ableton for the next DE9 CD.
on a personal level, I know Adam Jay was using Ableton for live sets, and Final Scratch for DJ sets... started running them simultaneously, and now he's doing it all in Ableton, sort of like a "live remix" set. bits and pieces from his live pa cleverly mixed in with edits of other folk's tracks he made for final scratch. Being able to go from Monoid style stuff down all the way to 110bpm Dexter and Funkstorung, and back up to Speedy J smoothly, all tracks being specificly edited by him and mixed with his own live material - it seems to work for him.

What do you folks think? On the Ableton forum its quite a debate, you have folks that say DJing means beatmatching, folks that say DJing means making people dance, and folks that say so long as you are doing more with ableton as you could with turntables - its all good, in other words do it to its fullest no matter what you use.

whatcha think?

[webassassin]

i'm pretty sure this is the right section of the forum, this isn't so much a production question as it is a question regarding what many techno djs/producers are doing these days.... forgive me if this is the wrong section...

so i'm wondering what is the concensus amongst the techno community regarding dj sets or "live remix" sets performed with Ableton Live?

Surgeon is doing it, Ho is doing it, i've heard Hawtin might be using Ableton for the next DE9 CD.
on a personal level, I know Adam Jay was using Ableton for live sets, and Final Scratch for DJ sets... started running them simultaneously, and now he's doing it all in Ableton, sort of like a "live remix" set. bits and pieces from his live pa cleverly mixed in with edits of other folk's tracks he made for final scratch. Being able to go from Monoid style stuff down all the way to 110bpm Dexter and Funkstorung, and back up to Speedy J smoothly, all tracks being specificly edited by him and mixed with his own live material - it seems to work for him.

What do you folks think? On the Ableton forum its quite a debate, you have folks that say DJing means beatmatching, folks that say DJing means making people dance, and folks that say so long as you are doing more with ableton as you could with turntables - its all good, in other words do it to its fullest no matter what you use.

whatcha think?

I really don't care too much what people use as long as they put on a show that's not just someone standing there because when I think of a laptop, I think of school/office work, you know. The need to physically engage the crowd as well, a la showmanship is very integral.

On the other hand, I think that if you're going to use laptops and software, you would first have to learn to or be known to spin on tables first, hands down. For guys like Surgeon, Oliver Ho, and Richie Hawtin, it is known that they can spin on tables so moving on to laptops would be seen as a step up or a progression for them artistically and the audience will accept that more than someone just starting off with a laptop.

My 2 cents.

[Martin Dust]

Can I kill this one now with this:




As for the machines taking over, all the better. "We use tapes, prerecorded, and we play tapes, also in our performance. When we recorded on TV we were not allowed to play the tape as part of the performance, because the musicians' union felt that they would be put out of work. But I think just the opposite: with better machines, you will be able to do better work, and you will be able to spend your time and energies on a higher level."

Ralf Hutter, 1975

[Tyrisia]

I've looked at Ableton, and it's awesome - but I'd need about four different controllers to make it work properly. If u plonk each one a foot apart across the table in front of the laptop, there'd be loads'a jumpin about and interaction. It might even sound better than if you put them next to each other - maybe.

[SlavikSvensk]

i really enjoy ableton sets (and other kinds of live sets), if the person makes good music with their tools. unfortunately, a lot of the time, the whole thing is prearranged. in that case the show promoters might as well just put a mix CD on. however, i do like ableton sets when the performer throws things together on the fly.

at the same time, i have never seen a live PA of any kind that has captured the improvisational genius of the best dj sets i've heard.

[xfive]

On the other hand, I think that if you're going to use laptops and software, you would first have to learn to or be known to spin on tables first, hands down. For guys like Surgeon, Oliver Ho, and Richie Hawtin, it is known that they can spin on tables so moving on to laptops would be seen as a step up or a progression for them artistically and the audience will accept that more than someone just starting off with a laptop.


That's one of the most absurd things I have ever heard.
You're telling me it's ok to use laptops if you're established... but all of the up and comers must stick to vinyl??

Garbage. Sorry. If you put on a good show, people will realize that. It does not matter if you have ever touched a turntable in your life or not.
It doesn't matter if you are using Ableton Live, or a rack of gear... but please, if you're going to use a laptop, don't just stand there like a statue staring at the screen.

It's not the tools people, its the way that you use them. Talent shines regardless.

[GothamGrooves.com]

I have had many discussion about this, as a matter of fact I had the very same one with a kid I had just met at the surgeon party last night.. Here is my take on the while thing. doing a live show and spinning with dex ae 2 diff worlds. With dex you are not only showing your beat matching skills but making the 2 or 3 records "**** eachother" (quote justin schumacher) However at the same time thats all you are limited to. Now with something like ableton live the beat matching is done, so it is now up to the artist take come up with amazing manipulations, edits/ remixes of other tracks, and really just putting on an audio show that really could not be accomplished woth dex. On the other hand If you have some dude with a laptop, pressing play and just layering one beat or track after another, then thats just a waste of what can truly be accomplished.. in my opinion...


However I do not think it matters if the person started on vinyl or not. There are plenty of producers who don't "spin" but they have the creativity to put on am amazing show. I don't think they should be penalized at all.


Ash Davis

[Larney]

Best thing to happen in years!

[Tyrisia]

I think, possibly, that we're gettin back to the old "dj's can't dance" theory. If u're into what u're doin, why the hell not jump around like the crowd is doin? Alot of dj's seem to think that they need to look cool and somber like they have done it a thousand times before (or maybe they're just too old to relate to the crowd :lol: ).

The thing with Ableton is it's new and multifunctional, and you can put as much or as little as you want into an hour's worth of music. I've seen some pretty somber pictures of people using laptops (mouse in hand, staring at the screen etc), but I know if I was to get the oppourtunity to play a set of my own stuff with it (I personally wouldn't cut up other's stuff along with my own), I'd be jumpin round like a loon, regardless of how many controllers I'd brought or how I'd placed them :lol: .

As x-five pointed out - it ain't what u do it's the way that u do it.

[The Overfiend]

Doesn't matter which brush or pen is used,
as long as the painting is priceless.

[djshiva]

okay thanks for the debate and opinions folks.


Now the question evolves... would you call this on stage use of Ableton, DJing?

Not that it needs classification, but you know we live in a world that loves classifying such things. Is it DJing? Live Remix? Live Set?

[Tyrisia]

Depends entirely on how u use it personally.

[Internal Error Records]

I just saw Surgeon.
And I heard him.


He sounded awesome.
He looked lame.


We might as well put int one of his cd's and save the $$$.

But sound quality does count for something.

The problem is in Albeton DJ sets is there is no TURNTABLISM.

Ableton djs are another step closer to putting all DJs out of work.

[SlavikSvensk]

i don't think it's fair to call ableton live performers DJs unless they also spin records. better to call them performers, or musicians, or whatever.

there's room for both, i think.

[schlongfingers]

Can I request a 'spod' forum please Mr EG? for the spod topics?

[Internal Error Records]

Can I request a 'spod' forum please Mr EG? for the spod topics?

this is a real topic.

the question is the use of Ableton real djing?

[djshiva]

what the hell is "spod"?

[schlongfingers]

Can I request a 'spod' forum please Mr EG? for the spod topics?

this is a real topic.

the question is the use of Ableton real djing?

The answer is, ask the international musician nomenclature assignation society. You ain't gonna get a definative answer otherwise..

My personal opinion - DJ = Disc Jockey = Person who plays music to other people. The only reason it is called Disc Jockey is because pre-recorded music was only available on vinyl when the need for a name arose.

In terms of Surgeon being boring to look at, well, lots of DJ's are boring to look at - that's why they take up playing records to get girlfriends rather than dancing and talking like the rest of us :D joke!!

[schlongfingers]

what the hell is "spod"?

haha, i thought that juuuust after i posted it, then looked it up... it seems i was the victim of divine linguistic intervention.

[GothamGrooves.com]

Well a disc jockey only plays disc's vinyl or cd etc.. But the Term "DJ" has become widley knwon as the performer on stage playing the music. By "DJ" standards the cunt on the radio who doesnt even know how to mix just talks and press's play, and he is considered a "DJ".

[Internal Error Records]

maybe someday Dj will stand for 'Data Jockey'.

until that time, IMO Ableton is not DJing.

[schlongfingers]

maybe someday Dj will stand for 'Data Jockey'.

until that time, IMO Ableton is not DJing.

OK, i'm really happy that's sorted out :)

[Internal Error Records]

dont mind me.

i think my 2 cents converts over to about one half of a pense (sp?).

[djshiva]

hard disk jockey?

[Komplex]

I just think its time that certain dj's get off their pedestal and realise that what they do is not that special.

Big plastic discs don't make you any better. You're still mixing together other peoples music and posing around so get over it.

"REAL" dj's keep the floor moving regardless of what they use.

[Internal Error Records]

I just think its time that certain dj's get off their pedestal and realise that what they do is not that special.

Big plastic discs don't make you any better. You're still mixing together other peoples music and posing around so get over it.

"REAL" dj's keep the floor moving regardless of what they use.

thats about as subjective as anyone here can get. clearly there is no universal definition of dj.

we're best off just accepting that this will be a no-resolution topic.

[The Overfiend]

Turntabalism?
This isn't invisible scratch pickles
it's techno
You go to hear the music
not see the "dj"
or "Performer" act like an ass.
Maybe when I spin out I'll do the roger rabbit to keep everyone amused
rather than shake ass.

[Internal Error Records]

i gotta disagree.

there is crazy talented techno djs out there. and their skills are a large part of their appeal.

but hey, if new technology is some peoples excuse (or motivation) to try and sound like a cd player, god bless them.

all we are proving is that people have different opinions on what a dj is.

[The Overfiend]

End of the day I judge the music before anything else, specially not antics.
Personally I prefer the musical journey to the get fresh transformer in the middle of ak-47. :lol:

[Komplex]

all we are proving is that people have different opinions on what a dj is.

we all know what a dj is here. there is nobody who doesn't know what a dj is on this board.

[GothamGrooves.com]

Turntabalism?
This isn't invisible scratch pickles
it's techno
You go to hear the music
not see the "dj"
or "Performer" act like an ass.
Maybe when I spin out I'll do the roger rabbit to keep everyone amused
rather than shake ass.

Largely you are right, If it's a huge venue, you really arent gonna see the dj. but there are plenty of locals that really get into their sets, even larger "DJ's" who really get into it that play smaller venues, and when its that intimate it cool to see them get into it...

my 5 cents, hehe

[Tyrisia]

I think if u're into what u're doin, and it's goin off, then it'd be very hard not to have a bit of a jig around and get into it. I'd find it difficult not to.

Unless of course u have no passion at all for what u're doin, and are simply doin it to be and look like the man. In which case it'd be very important to u to stand there, and be and look like the man.

[basslinejunkie]

Doesn't matter which brush or pen is used,
as long as the painting is priceless.

bingo.

[SlavikSvensk]

all we are proving is that people have different opinions on what a dj is.

we all know what a dj is here. there is nobody who doesn't know what a dj is on this board.

i'm not sure if that's true. doing an ableton set doesn't really count as being a "disk jockey," IMO. it's something else, and it can be really good. i see it as an inexpensive and portable way to do a live performance like you used to see with MPCs and synths.

bottom line is, both have strengths, both have weaknesses, and there is plenty of room for both. i understand the reasons why you'd want to do more ableton sets...similar to why you'd want to make electronic music rather than be in a band...you have total control and can rearrange as you see fit. but it's also something in its infancy, whereas djing is an established standard. for that reason, i believe the best DJ sets still blow away anything i've heard with ableton.

seeing someone like Jeff Mills on a good day (or whoever you respect most as a DJ if you are not a Mills fan) is our version of seeing Charlie Parker or Miles Davis play jazz standards.

[DJ Becka]

By "DJ" standards the cunt on the radio who doesnt even know how to mix just talks and press's play, and he is considered a "DJ".

No, the proper term for those people is 'On Air Personality' ;)

Honestly, when I first heard about Ableton, I was seriously against it, just because of the fact that it makes it so easy for people who download their music to just use that to 'dj'. I have a friend who works for them though and goes to seminars like Remix Hotel to show people how to use the program....after seeing how it works and how you can back up your entire record collection, incorporate this program into your djing sets, remix shit on the fly, etc, it made me see Ableton in a whole different light. Now I think Ableton is a really cool program....I have even considered getting it for myself....but I would always use vinyl in my sets too. Personally, sitting in front of a laptop for your entire 'djing' set would be too boring-and I think Ableton takes away from the whole challenge of having to beat match-the program does it for you.....so what's the fun in that really? I know you can do a lot of other things with Ableton, but that's just my big issue with that-just doesnt seem challenging enough....

As far as artists like Surgeon using it....I saw him the other night here in NY, and you know, I really liked what I was hearing.....but I didnt like what I was SEEING....this was the first time I've actually seen someone use Ableton at a performance and it just seemed weird to see him hunched over his laptop-just too boring.....I go out to dance, but I like to see when the 'DJ' is getting into it too....up there, he wasnt even breaking out in a sweat.......

[Martin Dust]

What you are all really taking about is beatmatching, this is the only advantage Live will give you. It won't help you do good edits or program a good set, it wont help you mix tracks, jeesh enough already - this is techno we are talking about, what are you all scared of? Future music, yeah? How long does it take to learn to beatmatch - 4 weeks tops? Live is here to stay and you'll be seeing a lot more of it in techno so you'd better get use't to it. :twisted:

As for watching the DJ, well that's your call and I can understand it, but some people don't express themselves like, say, Claude Young. Surge focuses on the music and to be honest I wouldn't have it any other way, his shit is hot.

There's some really luddites around, this is the same shit Kraftwerk had to listen to in 70's, except this time it isn't from ****ing hippies with guitars...

[The Overfiend]

this is techno we are talking about, what are you all scared of? Future music, yeah?
:clap:

[schlongfingers]

There's some really luddites around, this is the same shit Kraftwerk had to listen to in 70's, except this time it isn't from **** hippies with guitars...

Precisely!

[djshiva]

wow i didnt realize this would be such a hot subject.

Surgeon and Adam Jay tonite in Indy, they are both doing Ableton sets...
should be interesting.

I'll consider what you've all said while i shake my thang and take it all in. :cool:

[Joseph Isaac]

The problem is in Albeton DJ sets is there is no TURNTABLISM.


Not totally true...There are ways of manipulating loops to sound like beat-doubling and juggling, but it takes an extremely steady hand...as far as scratching is concerned, you got me there...

[Joseph Isaac]

I think one thing we all as djs/producers/whatever is that the audience does not give a rat's ass about how good your skills are...we do...us djs give a rat's ass about technical skills and what not. But, I've had to overcome this skill issue and realize that the majority of the people listening don't care...If it sounds good and maybe they bob their head or they dance, then your mission as a performer is accomplished. I still trainspot everytime i hear a dj spin, but for the most part, I now just aim for the music to sound good, no matter the medium used.

[gunjack]

I just saw Surgeon.
And I heard him.


He sounded awesome.
He looked lame.


We might as well put int one of his cd's and save the $$$.

But sound quality does count for something.

The problem is in Albeton DJ sets is there is no TURNTABLISM.

Ableton djs are another step closer to putting all DJs out of work.


give me a f*cking break.



look for a new gunjack interview this week dealing with ableton etc. :rambo:

[yeswehavetheright]

The few sets I've seen done on Ableton have really bored me to tears.
It takes the art of performance away. Sure, you still need to know what your doing, how to put a good set together etc but it's just really boring.

I wanna see/hear the DJ manipulate the vinyl and show me his technical skill.
I wanna hear a record start to driftout and have to be nudged back. Ableton just don't sound the same.

It's probably perfect for surgeon 'cos it suits his style perfectly (i.e. dull) .
But for someone like James Ruskin to use it? Come on man and pull yer self together and do it proper!!!

[GothamGrooves.com]

[quote=GothamGrooves.com] By "DJ" standards the cunt on the radio who doesnt even know how to mix just talks and press's play, and he is considered a "DJ".

No, the proper term for those people is 'On Air Personality' ;) quote]

Now your radio skillz pay off? lol no doubt, but how about on air cunts then? :lol: I totally see what you are saying about surgeon and the beat matching but again like I stated before they are 2 diff worlds. I dont think you can judge it soley on beat matching criteria because thats not whats its for. Like some1 else posted before this whole technolgy is still new and vinyl dj's are the industry standard. Either way as long as dope techno parties are around ill be happy with both.

[Stretch]

The few sets I've seen done on Ableton have really bored me to tears.
It takes the art of performance away. Sure, you still need to know what your doing, how to put a good set together etc but it's just really boring.

I wanna see/hear the DJ manipulate the vinyl and show me his technical skill.
I wanna hear a record start to driftout and have to be nudged back. Ableton just don't sound the same.

It's probably perfect for surgeon 'cos it suits his style perfectly (i.e. dull) .
But for someone like James Ruskin to use it? Come on man and pull yer self together and do it proper!!!

How can you say Surgeon's dull? Every set he's dropping new edits that he's been working on. He's the most innovative person in techno right now. James Ruskin is the duller of the pair with his minimal-a-thon sets.

[The Overfiend]

He's the most innovative person in techno right now.

Word?

[Komplex]

I think one thing we all as djs/producers/whatever is that the audience does not give a rat's ass about how good your skills are...we do...us djs give a rat's ass about technical skills and what not. But, I've had to overcome this skill issue and realize that the majority of the people listening don't care...If it sounds good and maybe they bob their head or they dance, then your mission as a performer is accomplished. I still trainspot everytime i hear a dj spin, but for the most part, I now just aim for the music to sound good, no matter the medium used.

Excellent, you have your head on straight :)

The only people that truly really give a shit if you spin a vinyl record back and forth a few times as you cue the next track with your head cocked to the side are wannabe dj's. no-one else.

Let the focus be on music so techno can keep moving on please.

Good on Surgeon and the other guys. Perhaps all this talk is a touch of jelousy being displeyed by traditional dj's?

[djshiva]

Doesn't matter which brush or pen is used,
as long as the painting is priceless.

that is absolutely beautiful. :) :) :) may i quote you? ;)

[djshiva]

The few sets I've seen done on Ableton have really bored me to tears.
It takes the art of performance away. Sure, you still need to know what your doing, how to put a good set together etc but it's just really boring.

I wanna see/hear the DJ manipulate the vinyl and show me his technical skill.
I wanna hear a record start to driftout and have to be nudged back. Ableton just don't sound the same.

It's probably perfect for surgeon 'cos it suits his style perfectly (i.e. dull) .
But for someone like James Ruskin to use it? Come on man and pull yer self together and do it proper!!!

dull? hmmm...

just saw surgeon last night, and this is what i have to say:

BRILLIANT musically. shook my ass, as did everyone else. the room was completely buggin the **** out, and at the end of the day, that's all that matters.

as far as performance goes, do have to agree that watching the expressionless laptop stare was pretty lackluster, but thankfully there were so many hands in the air and people screaming that i forgot about that fairly quickly.

i think at the end of the day, whatever you find that suits your particular personality or musical expression, then that is what you will be good at. know your strengths and weaknesses as an artist, and you will do what you need to.

i personally know that i love the turntables, and have little need to stare at a laptop while performing. adam jay really seems to dig the flexibility of ableton these days. so we each do what we think suits our particular personalities, and i think the music is better for it.

[yeswehavetheright]

dull? hmmm...

just saw surgeon last night, and this is what i have to say:

BRILLIANT musically. shook my ass, as did everyone else. the room was completely buggin the **** out, and at the end of the day, that's all that matters.

as far as performance goes, do have to agree that watching the expressionless laptop stare was pretty lackluster, but thankfully there were so many hands in the air and people screaming that i forgot about that fairly quickly.

i think at the end of the day, whatever you find that suits your particular personality or musical expression, then that is what you will be good at. know your strengths and weaknesses as an artist, and you will do what you need to.

i personally know that i love the turntables, and have little need to stare at a laptop while performing. adam jay really seems to dig the flexibility of ableton these days. so we each do what we think suits our particular personalities, and i think the music is better for it.

I heard a rumour that he pre-programs all his sets anyway and just plays tomb raider.

[gunjack]

there you are! :rambo:

[GothamGrooves.com]

dull? hmmm...

just saw surgeon last night, and this is what i have to say:

BRILLIANT musically. shook my ass, as did everyone else. the room was completely buggin the **** out, and at the end of the day, that's all that matters.

as far as performance goes, do have to agree that watching the expressionless laptop stare was pretty lackluster, but thankfully there were so many hands in the air and people screaming that i forgot about that fairly quickly.

i think at the end of the day, whatever you find that suits your particular personality or musical expression, then that is what you will be good at. know your strengths and weaknesses as an artist, and you will do what you need to.

i personally know that i love the turntables, and have little need to stare at a laptop while performing. adam jay really seems to dig the flexibility of ableton these days. so we each do what we think suits our particular personalities, and i think the music is better for it.

I heard a rumour that he pre-programs all his sets anyway and just plays tomb raider.

There was a bit of both when I saw him last friday.. He has a lot of elements, ie tunes like La real or house of god already on the grid along with kick drums and synths. But he was manipulating and brining things in and out on the fly

[fitipaldi]

Seen a few ableton sets recently, the music and atmosphere was amazing, so whats the problem? If someone is sh!t people will vote with their feet no matter what equipment the shit music is being played on. Surgeon is where he is for a reason, cos a lot of people like the music that comes out of the speakers, no matter what it's created on.

:lol:

[Stella Boy]

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