Programming vs. Playing and what is Felt

[tocsin]

Figured this might deserve it's own topic and I'll start it here.


This is an old and frankly quite pathetic argument, of Electronic Composition versus Real instruments, and not
something I would expect from a forum like this.
I can play the guitar, the drums, the piano, bass guitar, and a bit of flute.
It`s a mechanical skill. Anyone can learn it.
The same as programming is a mechanical skill.
The talent lies in the musical ability.
To think you can just randomly bash away at a computer and come up with a good tune is so naieve.
there is a certian subset of musicians who for reasons unknown adhere to the false premise that "electronic" music
or the tools involved imply a lack of creativity of inspired performance. Technology in the hands of creative,
intelligent individuals is a tool for art, not a hindrance.
Couldnt have said better myself
no you couldnt really could you.
neither could i.

I'm not discussing randomly bashing keys here. Let me put this in context.

You're at a club. Nobody is really dancing to the music and you aren't really feeling it. If and when that comes up in discussion, you get a number of chinstrokers who start talking about inferior "dance music" while discussing what makes the music you didn't feel so amazing and ground breaking. But, in the end, it's still a 4/4 track with compressed kicks and some effects tricks being the heart of technical "skill" in that track. This is something that anyone, and I mean ANYONE, can do after shelling out some bucks to take a course on basic audio engineering if one can't figure it out themselves. Is it a skill? Absolutely. Is it enough to really impress me? No. When it comes to any programmed machine that makes music, if the music itself doesn't move me, no arguments about the cool use of effects, EQ, whatever is going to make me appreciate it any much more. It will still be something that leaves me cold. When the "groundbreaking" aspect is from someone who learned how, or stumbled upon, the
positioning of some knobs or sliders in various places, I just don't see what the big deal is.

Now, compare that to a live musician. After 3 months of practice on any instrument, you aren't going to be that good unless you are a gifted prodigy. It takes more time and dedication to be able to master many musical instruments to a professional level. It's something that takes years of discipline.
In the end, if I'm not feeling the music such a musician is playing, it's still not going to be my cup of tea. But, when a chinstroker discussion comes up around it, I can respect it more. There is a huge difference between playing an instrument and programming one. Arguments that try and separate programmed music as being technically better than other programmed music that sounds almost exactly the same, in the end, is just bogus for me. Frankly, I think the whole superiority arguments surrounding musical genres helped make a number of them so weak. I've more appreciation for someone who focusses on the energy. When a track with good energy is mastered well, that's great. When a boring track is mastered well, it's still boring. And, of course, boring or even "mastered well" is entirely subjective.

[dirty_bass]

See, your lack of experience is showing here.
Music is music, regardless of the medium.
Badly made loopy techno is just that, unchallenging and non musical.
Nothing to do with the equipment.
Boring, regurgitated punk played by all these punk bands popping up today is just the same. Unchallenging and non musical.

I`ve lived my whole life around musicians, having been in bands and stuff for years.
I know many technically accomplished guitarists etc, who can play really well, especially if it is from score, but when it comes to writing their own shit, they suck.

I picked up guitar real quick. It just takes practice, day after day, so your fingers MECHANICALLY learn where to go, automatically.
It doesn`t take years of discipline at all.
I would say you can learn guitar a lot quicker than you could learn to fully master say, cubase.
If you are musically talented, then you will be good with guitar, it just takes time to mechanically learn.
If you are musically talented then you will be good with a sequencing set up, it just takes time to learn the gear.

It`s all about translating what you have in your head, into something that moves air.

The fact is, their isn`t a huge difference between playing an instrument and programming one.
Creativity is not medium dependant.
If you write shit on a PC, you are gonna write shit on a piano.
Talent is talent regardless of the medium, and this argument is based on nothing more than opinion.

[Jimfish]

the very fact that there bare say 1000 techno producers out there and only maybe 10 are consistenly top notch prooves that not anybody can make amazing sequenced music.

Just the same as there are thousands of guitarists out there and maybe 5% of them tops are the nuts.

You have to remember that playing live and writing complete tracks are very different things. One is composition and one is performance. There are tonnes of people that are good composers but only average instrumentalists and the same goes the other way.

[Jimfish]

bare = are :lol:

[dirty_bass]

That`s what I was trying to get at, cheers Jim.
Performance and composition are two different things.

[tocsin]

See, your lack of experience is showing here.

First off, if you want to have a discussion, don't start your posts with something that will be read as an ad hominem.

My experience is what relates to my opinion. I've been doing music one way or anothr most of my life. I'm not talking about regurgitated punk bands here. Sure, anyone can learn how to play an instrument in a medicore fashion real quick and even have it sound good. I'm not discussing the subjective "good composition" either. I don't even disagree with that.

This is the point and try and stick to it without any tangents as this topic keeps walking away into different issues. Say you have a techno track that doesn't move you in the slightest. Then, say you also have a profesisonal classical guitar recording that you also don't like. You have two chin strokers in your company. One who tries to tell you that the music you enjoy (because you happen to think they are good compositions) is inferior dance music and that the particular track you don't like is excellent because of some studio technical tricks. Then, the other chin stroker repeats the inferior dance music claim while claiming the guitar track you don't like is good because the playing is exceptionally dificult.

The "inferior" claims are both bogus, obviously. But, as far as humoring a chinstroker, I'm not going to give a rat's ass about how great the use of compression, EQ, panning, whatever is thrown into the mix is because anyone with a bit of cash to spend can learn how do that shit on a professional level in a short period of time. Now, as for the chinstroker argument about the exceptional guitar playing, that is something that will impress me as it is a much more refined skill. Moreover, that chinstroker is unlikely to tell me how phenomenal the work is because of the way the bass notes stick out over the lower mids.

Anyone who has the time and isn't deaf can learn the techniques which are brought up as being so superior by chinstroking genre snobs. Not everyone who has the time will become a virtuoso on an instrument. Far less of you would. Now, is that an insult? Or is it just recognition of the fact that, where machines and technology that were created to make tasks easier are used in the production of music and are constantly evolving, that maybe using them in a professional setting and having them sound quite good isn't quite as difficult as learning how to get the same sound out of something without any help from a mahcine at all?

[Jimfish]

if we havent adressed your point then i really cant understand what your point actually is.. :eh:

[dirty_bass]

Thats where you are wrong.
Anyone can learn to play an instrument to a high standard.
It`s a mechanical skill.
As I have said, living around the muso life all my life, I`ve seen plenty of people say, I`m gonna take up guitar.
And within a year, they are finger tapping as good as steve vai.
No different from spending a year learning in the studio how to produce properly.
Your argument doesn`t hold up, and is based on a very old fashioned mind set.

When I wanted to learn piano, I paid to have lessons. I had a good teacher.
I reached a high standard.

How is that different to someone doing the same for studio?

I don`t understand your point at all.

[tocsin]

Yes, you just don't understand my point as I'm having trouble communicating it here. The joy of digital communication. Anyways, let's seriously not pretend that anyone can practice guitar for a year and become a virtuoso. Let's not pretend that it is nearly as simple as learning how to make a recording sound technically good through the use of machines. I'll happilly take a 909 and a 303 recorded on a dirty tape deck over something that I just find boring. Now, given that this doesn't seem to happen too much anymore for records that come out, when all someone can do to explain to me why one track is "better" than another is because some studio tricks were used, which can be implemented by reading how other people did and buying the right equipment, I'm simply not impressed. It's a chinstroker argument that I will not accept. When it comes to the music snobs who aren't focussing on audio engineering and focus on the exceptional playing of an instrument instead, even if I don't like the music I can
appreciate the playing. It's a skill that requires just a bit more than cash and access to technology. What I enjoy about techno so much is how simple it is to produce incredible sounding results with very little investment especially if you are willing to experiment with what you have in front of you. If you've got lots of money to blow, you could even make it easier for yourself by not having to use daisy-chained DIY approaches. Then, it's as simple as grabbing a book or jumping on the net, reading some basics, and taking some notes about the settings you like on your recording. You can make it unbelievably methodical if you so choose and merely tweak some parameters here and there where need be. This is something that can be learned in a 3 month crash course. Thus, I'm really not all that impressed by it. With machines, everyone has the power to make their composition come out sounding exactly how they want it to sound. The largest hurdles are pretty much coneptualization and lingo. That is
something that is completely different than learning to play scales on a sitar in a 39/32 time sig at a fast tempo and have it sound good. It may sound like shit to me from a subjective standpoint in the end. But, to get to the level of being able to do it requires far more effort and work than learning how to get the best EQ and compression out of your drum kick in a techno track that was able to be recorded without even having to use a microphone. In the end, the technology that exists makes it possible for much more people to become gifted audio engineers than musical prodigies on an instrument. And that is because the machine does more of the work than the person.

[Mindful]

For some people me being one of them the production of a track can move me as much as a good piece of music.
In other words one of the things that I personaly look for in music is the technical thought and skill that has gone in to it.
It may be easy to program a machine to play a genaral track but to do it in a way that is proffessinal and true is not so easy,if it was then I would not enjoy it as much as I do.I have been doing it for what feels like forever but still am nowhere near the level I wish to get to,I maybe able to make a fairly good piece of music but but its the technical side that takes somthing extra to achive and I do not feel happy with meerley a good track for me it has to be well produced.

My two cents on the matter ;)

[dirty_bass]

Yes, you just don't understand my point as I'm having trouble communicating it here. The joy of digital communication. Anyways, let's seriously not pretend that anyone can practice guitar for a year and become a virtuoso. Let's not pretend that it is nearly as simple as learning how to make a recording sound technically good through the use of machines. I'll happilly take a 909 and a 303 recorded on a dirty tape deck over something that I just find boring. Now, given that this doesn't seem to happen too much anymore for records that come out, when all someone can do to explain to me why one track is "better" than another is because some studio tricks were used, which can be implemented by reading how other people did and buying the right equipment, I'm simply not impressed. It's a chinstroker argument that I will not accept. When it comes to the music snobs who aren't focussing on audio engineering and focus on the exceptional playing of an instrument instead, even if I don't like the music I can
appreciate the playing. It's a skill that requires just a bit more than cash and access to technology. What I enjoy about techno so much is how simple it is to produce incredible sounding results with very little investment especially if you are willing to experiment with what you have in front of you. If you've got lots of money to blow, you could even make it easier for yourself by not having to use daisy-chained DIY approaches. Then, it's as simple as grabbing a book or jumping on the net, reading some basics, and taking some notes about the settings you like on your recording. You can make it unbelievably methodical if you so choose and merely tweak some parameters here and there where need be. This is something that can be learned in a 3 month crash course. Thus, I'm really not all that impressed by it. With machines, everyone has the power to make their composition come out sounding exactly how they want it to sound. The largest hurdles are pretty much coneptualization and lingo. That is
something that is completely different than learning to play scales on a sitar in a 39/32 time sig at a fast tempo and have it sound good. It may sound like shit to me from a subjective standpoint in the end. But, to get to the level of being able to do it requires far more effort and work than learning how to get the best EQ and compression out of your drum kick in a techno track that was able to be recorded without even having to use a microphone. In the end, the technology that exists makes it possible for much more people to become gifted audio engineers than musical prodigies on an instrument. And that is because the machine does more of the work than the person.

Nope your still talking arse.
Going on a production course for a year and being able to produce to a high standard doesn`t mean you will make good tunes.
Your confusing good production with good music.

And you can learn to play an instrument to a high standard very quickly, if you have the time to invest. I`ve seen many people do it, and I`ve done it myself.

Your so naieve to think anyone can make good music if they use a computer.

A computer doesn`t create for you.

I know plenty of people who are accomplished engineers, who can`t make a decent composition to save their lives.

It has taken me about 5 years to get to a reasonably good level of production.
And I`m still learning.

Piano took me about 8 months to get to a stage where I could play what I wanted to play.

Guitar took about a year.

I played drums from an early age, and have taught loads of people to play. With drums it`s a matter of co-ordination. If someone is coordinated, I can get them to a high level (if they practice) in a year, no problem.

It`s all irrelevant.

Creativity is creativity.

If you seriously think the way you do, then you demean all electronic artists.

Some of the most talented musicians don`t play any conventional instruments at all.

Look at Arvo Part.

Musical talent lies within the mind, and not in a mechanical skill.

[Evil G]

i think that it's important to point out that engineering a track and arranging a track are two completely different things, but they are being conflated here. if you want to compare a recording of techno to something else, it should be a recording of something else, not the other thing live. i think it's better not talk about engineering at all, since a classical guitarist obviously is going to pay an engineer to help him record anyway...

now, as for arranging, with techno, some of the performance aspect gets transfered into the arrangement, which is different than "real" music, but nonetheless, some pieces of sequenced music will be more expressive and "musical" sounding than others, just as some performers are more expressive than others using real instruments. having played the guitar for 10 years before getting into techno, it's my opinion that to be able to get that human feel into a sequenced piece takes vastly more talent than it does when playing a real instrument (where we really can't help but play out of time to some small degree), and it has nothing to do with using the trendiest engineering tricks.

look at squarepusher. his tracks sound good even when they sound bad, because they express a feeling, and i don't think it would be unfair to call him a "virtuoso" programmer.

[holotropik]

Not too sure what you are trying to say Tocsin? I know its hard to communicate online too.

But, dont forget that what a musician hears and what a punter hears are two very different things. I have learnt to pay more attention to the punters than to other musicians due to the chin-stroke phenomenon and competitivness of the music industry. If I listened to what other musicians tell me then I would never play out Live, ever. Would never be good enough or have the right equipment.

Also, music is subject to marketing hype which often makes something shite (eg: generic manufactured Pop-music) into something awesome with just a few well arranged wordz. How many muso bios' do you read that all sound the same? (so & so has been a muso all their lives...learnt to play an instrument from 4 years old.... now they are the next big thing....blah blah blah).

The final word on a track is said by the punter who listens to it and gets a kick out of it at that particular time....the artists soul has reached into them and plucked the right strings.

[tocsin]

Going on a production course for a year and being able to produce to a high standard doesn`t mean you will make good
tunes.

This is why I asked you to try and stay on point. Where did I say that going to school would mean you would make good tunes? I've actually been trying to state the exact opposite. I'm not talking about the compositional aspects so much as the engineering aspect. Most of the techno snobs I know have never implied that it is more dificult to compose a hard techno track than it is any other style of techno. The elitism comes in on the audio engineering side (ie. EQ, compression, etc.). That is something that doesn't really impress me. The music snobs, when it also comes to a song I just might not like, will discuss the technicality and skill regarding the playing of the instrument. I'm not talking about a recording of someone who just practiced enough to learn how to play the songs they wanted either. I'm talking about mastering an instrument. You did not master the guitar or piano in 8 months to a year.


Your confusing good production with good music.

No. The people who I wouldn't humor try to convince myself and others that tracks I don't like are better than some of the inferior dance tracks I like due to the incredible production. So, basically, you may have been agreeing with me the whole time.


If you seriously think the way you do, then you demean all electronic artists.

??? Fine then, if that's how you want to read it. I don't exactly see how pointing out that technology which was specifically created with ease of use in mind is easy to use.

[tocsin]

^^^ ended sentence abruptly. Should read ... "with ease of use in mind is easy to use is somehow demeaning to anyone that uses it."

[dirty_bass]

What does "mastering" the piano or guitar involve then?
I can play anything that comes to my mind, how I want it to be played.
Is that not mastering it?

If not then what is?
Being able to play something from another planet you have no knowledge of playing?


I`m confused.


No. The people who I wouldn't humor try to convince myself and others that tracks I don't like are better than some of the inferior dance tracks I like due to the incredible production. So, basically, you may have been agreeing with me the whole time.

These people are obviously cretins.
If they are saying the production of the better produced tracks is better. Then they are correct.
However, the composition is subjective, and therefore wether it is better or not is in the ear of the beholder.

How this can be compared to someone playing alive instrument is beyond me.

I suppose you could compare the production of a, say classical recording, to an electronic trip hop recording, for example.
that would make sense.

but comapring the technical skill of say, playing stairway to heaven on the sitar, with making a techno track, is just bizarre.

[dirty_bass]

well, ok, commenting on the title of this thread, my conclusion is this.

Both electronically produced and manually played music can be equally expressive, and both can convey just as much feeling.


Neither is superior, except maybe in the eyes (ears) of a fool.

[The Divide]

Anyone who does these crash courses only learns the very basics, like reading a book on how to play a guitar. They learn nothing about discovering a way of expressing themselves musically. As a result of this the end product is either a clone or a piece of tosh. Those who master it stand above.

However

There are two very influential factors here...

1. Musical understanding

2. Technological understanding


The musician usually focuses more on the instrument and the music, the artist tends to focus more on the technology. Therefore I would say the musician tends to be better at music but limited by the instrument.

The Artist tends to focus on technology, its not as simple as learning abc of a studio and its workings. It’s about expressing yourself via the equipment thus enabling you to find your sound. As far as I can see there are less limitations to playing a studio than an instrument. The rabbit hole can be as deep as the artist wants to take it. I can say from my experience been 6 years into this and I still only feel like I have just started. However doing a degree on creative sound and music technology has enabled me to create my own reakor FX boxes which suit my own personal needs. That’s combining technical understanding and logic together to be creative.

How do you do that with a guitar? Build your own?

That doesn’t make me any better tho, I actually suck at music (chord progressions, scales, etc) but you know what. That’s not what I’m interested in and that’s why I feel we are having an argument about chalk and cheese.

[The Divide]

P.S who says techno is better than this music, that music? This just seems like narrow mindedness

It’s all the same, just air moving our ear drums and sending electrical signals to our brains which stimulate certain emotions. Any music can do this and it all depends on the head that you carry on your shoulders.

PPS Did I mention hard house sucks? :lol:

[davethedrummer]

i've been reading your posts tocsin and i think i get what you are saying
you seem to be completely objective and sitting in neither camp
i think you are just saying that you like what you like regardless of how
"clever" it is.
and if that's what you are saying then i agree.
but it is a frequent thing to hear someone say" this is better than that because it requires better technique" etc etc....
personally i try not to get to heated about technique , as someone said before some squarepusher tracks and indeed some aphex tracks sound pretty bad , but that doesn't stop them from being great.

my dad is a professional arranger , so i would say that making music on a computer is as valid as learning piano because the skills involved with the arrangement , programming , playing , mixing , are so different yet they have to be tuned into each other to get the end result.
many musicians can't do this , they can just play their instrument , which is why the session musician exsists.

learning to play an instrument is useful to programming but not as useful as learning to play with other people is to arranging .

all my family are musicians , both parents are professionals , they totally boggle when they come into my studio , and i boggle when i watch them flit around on the keyboard playing chopin when i first showed my mum the studio she said
"oh wow and you can just put the music in a loop just like that????"

we forget sometimes how much we know..... we really do

music is art , art is 99% hard work 1% talent , to quote my mother and i never thought i'd be quoting my mum.

[djshiva]

music either hits you in the gut or doesn't, and all of it is subjective to the pair of ears listening.

for me, peter hook (of new order) can play three notes on a bass and elicit more of an emotional reaction out of me than les claypool (of primus) can by playing 800 notes.

who is more technically skilled? that's a matter of opinion. does les hit someone else on a more emotive level? probably.

do our arguments ever lead anywhere but to more arguments? usually not.

shut up. make music. do what you love and love what you do.

whatever happens, happens. the only objective truth about any of it is that someone somewhere will argue about it. ;)

[The Divide]

shut up. make music. do what you love and love what you do.


Or

Shut the **** up and dance

[Jimfish]

[quote] . I'm not talking about the compositional aspects so much as the engineering aspect.

dont forget man, that engineering itself is another MASSIVE subject.. good engineers are highly sought after people, and i have to say, from what i hear there arent many of them in techno if you judge by world standards. Again, with engineers youve got that 1% who really are a cut above all the rest of the engineers out there, and generally its taken them a long time to get there and a bloody lot of hard work.
So Instrumentalist, composer or engineer, you can take all these things just as far as you want to and someone thats good at what they do will still be striving to learn untill the end

[neilried]

A computer doesn`t create for you.

Fek it... thats where Ive been going wrong.... ;)

[OriginalTechnobastard]

Nope I disagree! Those tracks suck no way! I'm pretty open-minded about abstract music but that takes an ape's kkunnt!
[
personally i try not to get to heated about technique , as someone said before some squarepusher tracks and indeed some aphex tracks sound pretty bad , but that doesn't stop them from being great.

I agree with what dirtybass has been saying! It takes knowledge of art and creativity upon the artist to make great music thats all! Fukk all this nonsense about who makes the most difficult music, go fukkin play a harp, then tell your grandma! :love:

[tocsin]

but comapring the technical skill of say, playing stairway to heaven on the sitar, with making a techno track, is
just bizarre.

I never said it wasn't bizarre or anything short of stupid. Apparently, you just haven't been exposed to that chinstroker element. I have. Nobody is going to argue that programming a 4/4 trance track into a sequencer is anymore dificult than programming a 4/4 hard techno track into a sequencer. Skill/effort wise, it's the same. What makes the track good is subjective. Chinstrokers recognize this and get tired of the fact that they can be blown off with a "you like what you like and I like what I like" statement. So, they introduce the mastering/engineering aspect and say that's what makes a track better. Better produced? Maybe. But better? No. Not for me at least. But, that is not an acceptable answer. So, in the end, it feels the same to me as a conversation I'd have with a rocker who talks about how one band sucks and another makes "better" music because it is more technically dificult to play. The similarity lies in the mindset. But, with access to the best technology and a crash course in
audio engineering techniques, one can turn out a recording that sounds good production wise. Someone cannot go buy the most expensive violin, take a 3 month city course, and be doing anything phenomenal. That's why I can humor points from some people, but not others. It's more dick waving than anything else.


P.S who says techno is better than this music, that music?

You're kidding, right? You can see it right here and many other places. Go anonymously into some forum with a good amount of hard techno fans and talk about your love for epic trance or happy hardcore.


dont forget man, that engineering itself is another MASSIVE subject.. good engineers are highly sought after people,
and i have to say, from what i hear there arent many of them in techno if you judge by world standards.

And why is that? As of right now, it has more to do with the fact that learning how to become an audio engineer and acquiring the gear to do it was an unbelievably expensive pursuit. For a little over a decade, the affordability gap has been closed to a very strong degree. Moreso than people in the industry probably expected. Ten years ago, the recording industry was not going to have to worry about home users being able to pirate software that pretty much did their jobs. Hell, you should have heard some of the NYC engineers histeria about the Freefilter plugin in the Steinberg Mastering Edition plugin pack. Before seeing how it actually worked, a couple I talked to honestly thought it would make them entirely useless since people would be able to "steal" their settings from the tracks they mastered available on disc. While hardly a perfect tool, just that plugin can do some amazing shit. Take that into consideration with all the other software that a number of you probably have in your possession
here and haven't paid a dime for or paid an unbelievably low price. Say you have the Waves Bundle. Before software was accessable to the masses that did the same thing, how much would it have costed you to get the hardware simulated in that software alone? I seriously believe that you are going to see a steady decline in demand for audio engineers as more people take it up themselves since, unlike just over a decade ago, you can get professional results out of one computer. Now, don't think I'm trying to downplay the engineering side of track production. I do think it's important. But, I also believe that it is something that most people can do if they have the time and access. So, when dealing with a chinstroker who tells me how much the music I enjoy is just dancey crap, and that the music that they like which is at the same tempo, same time sig, uses the same drum machine, etc. is "better" or superior because of something as silly as EQ and compression, I really just don't care or agree. It's a
non-sequitur attack to pretend that there is some heirarchy of taste that has true merit. Good mastering of a track that doesn't speak to me is not going to make it good for me. Nor will the idea that because either the producer, or the person who mastered the track, understood the basics of engineering enough to produce a slightly better sounding record than some teenager in his bedroom going to be something that really impresses me. Add all the sugar you want to what you think is a bad cup of coffee and it's still going to taste bad.


you seem to be completely objective and sitting in neither camp
i think you are just saying that you like what you like regardless of how
"clever" it is.
and if that's what you are saying then i agree.

Thank you. That's exactly what I was trying to say. The part that seems to have confused people is where I stated that I'm less tolerant of the "cleverness" arguments with programmed music where the focus is the engineering than I am with the mastering of live instruments. I'm not even saying that isn't subjective on my part either.

[crime]

What's a "Chinstroker"?

[tocsin]

Sorry. A "chin stroker" is a term for someone who is usually very into one style of music, doesn't dance ato it, and will get snobby in telling you why their preferred style is so superior and anything that you listen to which is remotely different is shit. It's the kind of person that will actually get hung up over something as silly as whether someone used Fruity Loops or Abelton as if it has some importance to the listener appreciation, and not just ability of a producer to do what they want.

[gumpy green]

What's a "Chinstroker"?

folk that analise shit to see how good it is, not the average punter who just likes it if he like it but listing to see how well it was made .......

like my mate just drinks anything that gets him pissed......chin strokers would be the folk sipping wine...

[OriginalTechnobastard]

What's a "Chinstroker"?

aka snot! pouncey git!

[gumpy green]

this thread got me thinking......

it would be cool to see a live techno set but with folk playing with electroinc intruments.

someone on an electric drum kit...one playing sths live, maybe on jamming the fx....some live vocoded vocals....think it would be sweet.

[viagratek]

this thread got me thinking......

it would be cool to see a live techno set but with folk playing with electroinc intruments.

someone on an electric drum kit...one playing sths live, maybe on jamming the fx....some live vocoded vocals....think it would be sweet.


timeline? :lol:

[OriginalTechnobastard]

this thread got me thinking......

it would be cool to see a live techno set but with folk playing with electroinc intruments.

someone on an electric drum kit...one playing sths live, maybe on jamming the fx....some live vocoded vocals....think it would be sweet.
Yes thats what I meant about needing more live stuff going on before! It will defiently shake things up abit! Instead of just djing out of your prod, you have to work at it. Plus this would bring you to a bigger audience, but thats not the point. It will certainly brake a cycle!

[SlavikSvensk]

this thread got me thinking......

it would be cool to see a live techno set but with folk playing with electroinc intruments.

someone on an electric drum kit...one playing sths live, maybe on jamming the fx....some live vocoded vocals....think it would be sweet.

been done, just not so well...

[The Divide]

P.S who says techno is better than this music, that music?

You're kidding, right? You can see it right here and many other places. Go anonymously into some forum with a good amount of hard techno fans and talk about your love for epic trance or happy hardcore.


I thought tiwe based this disscussion around the differences between the " live musician" and the studio arst?

I said music

Happy hardcore is not music (digs own grave) :lol:

[dirty_bass]

this thread got me thinking......

it would be cool to see a live techno set but with folk playing with electroinc intruments.

someone on an electric drum kit...one playing sths live, maybe on jamming the fx....some live vocoded vocals....think it would be sweet.

Well, it`s very difficult.
Certain stuff you can program is just too hard to play on a synth.
A combination of the two is cool though.
I believe they were called Underworld.

[dan the acid man]

yes underworld are excellent live :cool:

[gumpy green]

this thread got me thinking......

it would be cool to see a live techno set but with folk playing with electroinc intruments.

someone on an electric drum kit...one playing sths live, maybe on jamming the fx....some live vocoded vocals....think it would be sweet.

Well, it`s very difficult.
Certain stuff you can program is just too hard to play on a synth.
A combination of the two is cool though.
I believe they were called Underworld.

yeh id imagine very difficult but defo do-able....i would like to see it done(live not comination) but done well......

never checked underworld in terms of kit used, i always just assumed they programmed it...now i know,

suppose some stuff programmed would be too hard on synth as you say, but ther are amazing pianists that could play stuff very hard to program...

got me thinking if someone could program up some "bach" or that piano tracks(not sure if tracks is the correct term). With enuf knowlege im sure you could recreate it with technology, but would real time playing it have a slightly different feel t it becuase of the slight differences in timin?

[OriginalTechnobastard]

Seriously fukk the pianist, the guatirist and the shoe tapper your mom knows! Fukk all this nonsense! Yes I want live but the spirit, yes I want this! The whole point is the spirit! I do think live can be done though and new things can be done :rambo:

[Jimfish]

And why is that? As of right now, it has more to do with the fact that learning how to become an audio engineer and acquiring the gear to do it was an unbelievably expensive pursuit. For a little over a decade, the affordability gap has been closed to a very strong degree. Moreso than people in the industry probably expected.

well theres a bit more to it than that, but yeah, i hear where your coming from now.. bit of a pointless load of typing there really, but i suppose at least our finger muscles are a bit more buff.. allways handy ;)

[crime]

Sorry. A "chin stroker" is a term for someone who is usually very into one style of music, doesn't dance ato it, and will get snobby in telling you why their preferred style is so superior and anything that you listen to which is remotely different is shit. It's the kind of person that will actually get hung up over something as silly as whether someone used Fruity Loops or Abelton as if it has some importance to the listener appreciation, and not just ability of a producer to do what they want.

Never met one meself... but it's pretty pointless to try and tell someone else that their music is shit and yours is better.. I kinda know where you are coming from, but find this whole 'chinstroker' thing a little strange, I suppose I just take people as people really.. One thing I will say though, you can tell when something has been done on say fruity loops compared to hardware... I'm not saying it's neccesarily going to be bad coming from a computer, I know some people who do really goods stuff with a computer, but there is a certain extra dimension to stuff produced on hardware if you ask me.. I get given demos for my label all the time, and time after time I can tell straight away that it's reason or fl i.e. it doesn't have that extra bit of oohmph on the bottom and crispness at the top, all the bass is a little mid range.. and what really gets me is when you can tell that the person hasn't even changed the kit in drum machine! But I will say there are some people who can get a really cool sound from a computer, but I think you have to be a much better producer all in all..
Bottom line though, a good track is a good track full stop, you can't compare playing an instrument with producing as they are 2 completerly different processes..
I mean, just because someone is a producer doesn't mean that they just program synths.. Look at Mathew Herbert, he wrote the whole score for his "Big Band" album and then got a big band to play it along with various guest musicians and vocalists.. I know this isn't techno exactly but I'm just demonstrating a point.. and bear in mind Rhythm is rhythm "Strings of life" was actually recorded in real time on a 4 track tape recorder i.e. all the synth parts were played in real time for the full 7 mins or whatever, not programmed.. so I do think it's a little naive to say that "Anyone can do it", it's exactly the kind of mantra chanted by the muscians union and rock bands when electronic dance music was first breaking through..
How come you got such an axe to grind on this anyway Tocsin?

[crime]

this thread got me thinking......

it would be cool to see a live techno set but with folk playing with electroinc intruments.

someone on an electric drum kit...one playing sths live, maybe on jamming the fx....some live vocoded vocals....think it would be sweet.

Subhead always have Phil doing a live drumming thing on his roland drum pad thing, and Vogel generally plays keys live when he's playing live....
Maybe you want to check out Liddell or Supercollider, they're utilising these concepts.. there is other stuff out there if you look outside the box....

[messyfuture]

this thread got me thinking......

it would be cool to see a live techno set but with folk playing with electroinc intruments.

someone on an electric drum kit...one playing sths live, maybe on jamming the fx....some live vocoded vocals....think it would be sweet.

Subhead always have Phil doing a live drumming thing on his roland drum pad thing, and Vogel generally plays keys live when he's playing live....
Maybe you want to check out Liddell or Supercollider, they're utilising these concepts.. there is other stuff out there if you look outside the box....

good choice

seen supercollider play live a while back, grant is amazing on his drum kit

[crime]

in fact, this leads me to the problem.. people always want techno to progress, but what about when it progresses so much that it doesn't sound like techno anymore? many people who are into techno would not be digging it as it's too far removed from the music they are familear with, saying "That's not techno" therefore techno will only progress as far as people's acceptance of something not sounding so much like techno to still be techno...

[crime]

To be honest I'm pretty sick of the 'T' word anyway, it always seems to counjour up one image to people, one big kickdrum...

[crime]

Maybe I'm a chinstroker too! I stand at the bar, don't dance and moan about the music most of the time...

[dirty_bass]

in fact, this leads me to the problem.. people always want techno to progress, but what about when it progresses so much that it doesn't sound like techno anymore? many people who are into techno would not be digging it as it's too far removed from the music they are familear with, saying "That's not techno" therefore techno will only progress as far as people's acceptance of something not sounding so much like techno to still be techno...

Techno can`t, not sound like techno anymore.
It IS techno.
If it progresses, then it progresses that is the nature of things.
Evolve or die.
Mobile phones don`t look like they used to.
People as a whole, resist change. They find something they are comfortable with, and they want it again and again and again....

A lot of people said mobile phones were stupid.

Now everyone has one.

A lot of people said the internet was stupid

Now it`s so widespread.

To survive techno needs to keep evolving. It`s a case of embrace it, and be at the front, or resist it, and play catch up later, when you realise everyone likes the new thing.

[crime]

Techno can`t, not sound like techno anymore.
It IS techno.
If it progresses, then it progresses that is the nature of things.
Evolve or die.

I think you're missing my point a little, my point is that the moment something sounds different, I mean to me, it's all techno, whatever that is electronic, groundbreaking, pushing it forward, unfortunatly it seems to me that there are a lot of people who when they hear something that falls out of the boomtishboomtishboomtish, seem to think that it's not techno, because it doesn't go boomtishboomtishboomtish, therefore the whole thing is blighted because the moment that someone does something really out there and different, loads of people say "Oh, that's not techno, you can't mix it, play it at a party etc etc"... I'll still be working on different stuff anyway, whether anyone will be calling it techno or not is anyones guess...

[dirty_bass]

No I get that, but screw those people.
Cos 2 years later they`ll be saying how they were always into this new type of techno, and they`ll be trying to make it themselves.

[crime]

No I get that, but screw those people.
well, completely, but the problem comes when you want to sell or play this different stuff and you're known for doing techno, people seem to want the same over and over.. I know you've just got to do it, but it becomes a little disheartning when people arn't feeling it...

[TechMouse]

this thread got me thinking......

it would be cool to see a live techno set but with folk playing with electroinc intruments.

someone on an electric drum kit...one playing sths live, maybe on jamming the fx....some live vocoded vocals....think it would be sweet.

I had an idea the other night for an "acoustic" drum machine.

You'd get a step sequencer, then wire it up to some animatronic stuff to set off a kickdrum pedal, or hit a cymbal or whatever - do it for a whole drumkit. You'd retain the rock-solid timing essential to Techno, but get a really interesting and moreover different sound because of the physicality.

Might sound a bit crap overall, but would certainly make a visually interesting live show.

[dirty_bass]

Totally, I despair at peoples general need to put you in a box.
"Oh he made that, therefore that`s what he does"

People resist change, what can I say.

It`s totally disheartening, but don`t let that discourage you.

You may not win the war, but the fight can be fun.

[gumpy green]

this thread got me thinking......

it would be cool to see a live techno set but with folk playing with electroinc intruments.

someone on an electric drum kit...one playing sths live, maybe on jamming the fx....some live vocoded vocals....think it would be sweet.

Subhead always have Phil doing a live drumming thing on his roland drum pad thing, and Vogel generally plays keys live when he's playing live....
Maybe you want to check out Liddell or Supercollider, they're utilising these concepts.. there is other stuff out there if you look outside the box....

thanks for the info...will checkit...

saw many a live set but none using these "live" techniqes...

OTB-
Seriously fukk the pianist, the guatirist and the shoe tapper your mom knows! Fukk all this nonsense!

that is a very sad attitude for someone whos supposed to like music.......i like any style of music and luv to see someone play an intrument well......

too many folk like techno and thats it..........sad as fuk IMO.......far too many great tracks out ther to limit yerself to just techno......

i luv my hard as nails shit techno(and pretty much all techno) but yall still catch me listening to shit like "headz" albums/complimantions then yall catch me listening to the jam/ska....

how anyone can say that wathcing say santana on guiter is nonsence beats me

[OriginalTechnobastard]

Hmmm. I personally wouldn't like to know about Santana showing off his guitar. But thats my taste. Yeah I like watching some bands live and can stand few songs outside my usual perimeter, but when it comes to passion its my techno and electro all I care about. You know, some of the people around me feel the same way as you. I disagree! There are too many bullshiteee out there. When I wrote that comment I was just talking about other forms of music and its inferiority to Techno. The comment was a backlash against all this old and narrowminded opinions people have about Techno music. My destination is electronic music(usuallly done with keyboards). The rest is pretty shitte! To you I may be limitted, to me I only care for the best :lol:

[OriginalTechnobastard]

I think Techno and Electro are the most forward and future orientated music out there. Thats why people might have the same mind-frame as me. I'm sick listen to old ways of music. Boring men! Can't get into it. I have been removed from that too long now :snooty: !

[dirty_bass]

I wouldn`t say it is the most future orientated music.
It is good, but there are other types of music that push the boundaries as well.
In terms of being musically progressive, I find some of the contemporary composers are far more ahead.

[gumpy green]

dont get me wrong techno is defo my passion but i dont limit myself to techno on its own.......

yer missin out son......thers soo much good stuff out ther besides electronic music.....(altho it is the best IMO)

i was like you when i was younger...all music is crap except rave......

then i grew up a bit and gave other shit a chance.......cos as soon as i used to hear a track if it wasent boom boom then it was in one ear out ther other...

now if you "listen" to it not "hear" it as you do do so with techno, listening for all the elements comin in and out and getting to feel the groove/melody , you will like alot of it.........no human can only like the sounds of one style.....

techno is pretty forward thinking, i agree but thers heaps of other shit just as far ahead.....tons of hiphop is just as good if not better than techno.....

Tell you - mixmaster mikes new shit is just fukin amazing........check out his album for forward thinking....tremendoes.

[tocsin]

How come you got such an axe to grind on this anyway Tocsin?

Because I just grew real tired of dealing with the same pompous shit from people in techno that I was used to getting from progressive rockers. There's no room for it at all in techno which is why I won't humor it in the slightest.

[Jimfish]

yeah you gotta watch those pesky progressive rockers..

[SlavikSvensk]

yeah you gotta watch those pesky progressive rockers..

they seem to be making a comeback...mars volta #4 album in US. bizarre...

as for grumpy...i agree...i listen to lots of non-techno music...modern classical, indie rock, african drumming, hip-hop, etc. why limit oneself? take what you can from other forms of music and make your techno stronger in the process!

[Evil G]

How come you got such an axe to grind on this anyway Tocsin?

Because I just grew real tired of dealing with the same pompous shit from people in techno that I was used to getting from progressive rockers. There's no room for it at all in techno which is why I won't humor it in the slightest.

maybe you need to hang out with a different croud? i know plenty of chin stroking music snobs (i'm probably one myself) but they all put the music first, and the production second. i suppose if i ran into some people as you describe, i wouldn't like them either.

[OriginalTechnobastard]

Yeah but I'm not a young kid! 0'm not old but not young. Neither like the colour purple :lol: ! There isn't that much good stuff out there! The medians is boring. We have the music which pushes boundaries and have the most nonlimit in music. We are the best :lol: and the limited outside music is very scared of this. Techno and electro and some good house is only thing that gives me goose bumps and make me rock my body, fuoock the rest seriously. Most of these people think it sounds like a gameboy and montone but we know the point. How can anyone even suggest the games market in the first place? Nice way to make your music sound credible guys :clap: :clap: Well done!
I have surrounded myself with loads of other music. Funny, because after I talked to you I went to a Mexican restaurant with Santana music where people compare the music to Santana. There was this kunt doingtango to it in his chair! He was aperrvy kunt thinking he knew the best moves and music with soul in the world :rambo: Bastardio mothakunt he was no doubt! Then the same night I have seen a band doing a cover version of my favourite band of all time Pixies! So I am surrounded and I do know. But elecctronic music is different. We need to stick by it. The kinetics which I always found the most important element about anything is in abundance. FUkkk it, I love my Dima, Ferox, Hacker! :shock:

Hip hop is shite. I don't respect anything by it. All talk and false impressions. They do have underground by I still don't like their overlayer. Just like some people can't get around tunes with no vocals :snooty:

dont get me wrong techno is defo my passion but i dont limit myself to techno on its own.......

yer missin out son......thers soo much good stuff out ther besides electronic music.....(altho it is the best IMO)

i was like you when i was younger...all music is crap except rave......

then i grew up a bit and gave other shit a chance.......cos as soon as i used to hear a track if it wasent boom boom then it was in one ear out ther other...

now if you "listen" to it not "hear" it as you do do so with techno, listening for all the elements comin in and out and getting to feel the groove/melody , you will like alot of it.........no human can only like the sounds of one style.....

techno is pretty forward thinking, i agree but thers heaps of other shit just as far ahead.....tons of hiphop is just as good if not better than techno.....

Tell you - mixmaster mikes new shit is just fukin amazing........check out his album for forward thinking....tremendoes.

[Mindful]

No I get that, but screw those people.
Cos 2 years later they`ll be saying how they were always into this new type of techno, and they`ll be trying to make it themselves.

bravo :clap:

[Mindful]

as for grumpy...i agree...i listen to lots of non-techno music...modern classical, indie rock, african drumming, hip-hop, etc. why limit oneself? take what you can from other forms of music and make your techno stronger in the process!

and erm.......bravo :clap:

[OriginalTechnobastard]

Nope! Maybe new beat and classical something to open the arts, but best inspiration is the machine, life, feeel. :clap: :clap:

[Mindful]

The reason listening to all forms of music can benifit you production is if you understand how a piece of music works you can then use it in your own way so if you want to make a techno track jazzy or whatever you know how to do so and what elements are needed ect.
Other forms of music help you to see a bigger picture while life,oppression,the machine,human nature and the way of the world ect are for insperation(as you said)

Inspiration gets you started but knowlege helps you to carry that inspiration on to somthing more.

[Mindful]

But you like what you like.
And thats the way it should be.
Just because I like to hear all forms of music by no way means you should does it?

But techno is my true love

[OriginalTechnobastard]

Nope I'm a kkunt! An uninspritational kunt! And All I want to listen to Soulshaker :snooty: I think I know what he is trying to without you spelling shite for me(no offence)! So lets party and let the beat hang!

[Mindful]

:shock: erm I think maybe you took me wrong


Nope I'm a kkunt!

you said it :clap:

[OriginalTechnobastard]

Yep better then all the other music lovers! I hate the other shite! Not worth a asylumseekapplication!

[OriginalTechnobastard]

:shock: erm I think maybe you took me wrong


Nope I'm a kkunt!

you said it :clap:
very ' 93 :oops:

[OriginalTechnobastard]

The reason listening to all forms of music can benifit you production is if you understand how a piece of music works you can then use it in your own way so if you want to make a techno track jazzy or whatever you know how to do so and what elements are needed ect.
Other forms of music help you to see a bigger picture while life,oppression,the machine,human nature and the way of the world ect are for insperation(as you said)

Inspiration gets you started but knowlege helps you to carry that inspiration on to somthing more.

Yeah but I hate jazzy techno :lol: ! I know what you are saying. Use the other forms for your technique but I say start from 0! Dictate what you feel with the instruments you have. I find many of the other styles uninspring but not always. Most of the other music is restrained a format. but we are not

[OriginalTechnobastard]

:shock: erm I think maybe you took me wrong


Nope I'm a kkunt!

you said it :clap:

It takes one to know one ;)

Seriously very childish. I know what he was saying :doh:

[Mindful]

:shock: erm I think maybe you took me wrong


Nope I'm a kkunt!

you said it :clap:

It takes one to know one ;)

Seriously very childish. I know what he was saying :doh:

:lol: only messing geezer

wasnt realy backing up anyone elses opinions just esspressing my own.

And I aggree with some of what your saying realy I can see that techno and electronic music has enuff forms to take from allready but those forms came from somwhere originaly.

[OriginalTechnobastard]

Are you saying they are sums of parts instead of whole? I always think techno and electro although had parts from other forms of music sometimes, as a more of bass orientated and heavy sound. Which is a first of its kind. But also the music itself includes synths and keyboard only with some samplers, and drum combination. Because keyboards and synths are so heavily used its again unique. And sometimes help from computers. But its outer space sounding thing and able to rock up and down to it , its one of its kind. No other music can do this. What I been saying is we need to credit what Techno and Electro is. A unique sound that captures movement. Something that you feel. When other forms music come to it, its not the same. Maybe the combination of two can give you something better, but the other forms of music alone sound singular. Besides Techno is known for atmosphere. Atmosphere can be captured through life experience, a movie, or someone you meet :lol: You don't need to shuffle other forms of music to it. You might borrow a section but that doesn't really mean you like the whole song from that form of music. I personally don't mind some of the songs in the background, but I wouldn't say I really listen to it. It just means I appreciate the background music more then Robbiewhatshisname. I can see the point of live bands though. That does offer at the time, something different.

[gumpy green]

Yeah but I'm not a young kid! 0'm not old but not young. Neither like the colour purple :lol: ! There isn't that much good stuff out there! The medians is boring. We have the music which pushes boundaries and have the most nonlimit in music. We are the best :lol: and the limited outside music is very scared of this. Techno and electro and some good house is only thing that gives me goose bumps and make me rock my body, fuoock the rest seriously. Most of these people think it sounds like a gameboy and montone but we know the point. How can anyone even suggest the games market in the first place? Nice way to make your music sound credible guys :clap: :clap: Well done!
I have surrounded myself with loads of other music. Funny, because after I talked to you I went to a Mexican restaurant with Santana music where people compare the music to Santana. There was this kunt doingtango to it in his chair! He was aperrvy kunt thinking he knew the best moves and music with soul in the world :rambo: Bastardio mothakunt he was no doubt! Then the same night I have seen a band doing a cover version of my favourite band of all time Pixies! So I am surrounded and I do know. But elecctronic music is different. We need to stick by it. The kinetics which I always found the most important element about anything is in abundance. FUkkk it, I love my Dima, Ferox, Hacker! :shock:

Hip hop is shite. I don't respect anything by it. All talk and false impressions. They do have underground by I still don't like their overlayer. Just like some people can't get around tunes with no vocals :snooty:

dont get me wrong techno is defo my passion but i dont limit myself to techno on its own.......

yer missin out son......thers soo much good stuff out ther besides electronic music.....(altho it is the best IMO)

i was like you when i was younger...all music is crap except rave......

then i grew up a bit and gave other shit a chance.......cos as soon as i used to hear a track if it wasent boom boom then it was in one ear out ther other...

now if you "listen" to it not "hear" it as you do do so with techno, listening for all the elements comin in and out and getting to feel the groove/melody , you will like alot of it.........no human can only like the sounds of one style.....

techno is pretty forward thinking, i agree but thers heaps of other shit just as far ahead.....tons of hiphop is just as good if not better than techno.....

Tell you - mixmaster mikes new shit is just fukin amazing........check out his album for forward thinking....tremendoes.

fair enuf, you clame you dont like anything really outside techno etc...

i still find it hard to understand how this can be possible to anybody really moved by music......what about some drum and bass???

and that hiphop is shite comment is pure ignorance......nothing more.....for a start hiphop is not music.........rap is..... and ther so many different rap songs that are not faulse(sure some are but thers shit techno too).. krsone dont rap about all this bling bling/killin you shit......he educates folk.

[OriginalTechnobastard]

I do hate most of the other forms of music :lol: ! I just wanted to have my chicken fajita :lol: and some mexican band was playing in the restaurant. The second live I went to was because the band played a pixies song and few decent indie. And I wanted to have more beer :lol: