Ok guys lets face it.

[AcidTrash]

In my humble opinion...

Much though we may try to deny it vinyl is on its way out for the reason illustrated below...

http://shopping.search.ch/images/products/large/4e/zumi-cdx1.jpg

That and pressing tunes is stupidly expensive for producers who give up virtually everything in the way of financial income to make the music we need. This is killing it in my view and this CD deck is the answer to my prayers.

The scene in my view does need a shake up as the same names keep cropping up on flyers and records and it's hard to go to a UK club and not have heard virtually every other track if you have your eye on the ball. Fresh blood is needed and the answer is here.

I've heard some reasonably innovative ideas on how to revive vinyl but technology has finally spoken and it just aint gonna happen. I for one will be purchasing one of the above CD decks because it looks and behaves like a real deck which means I can now play my own tracks and the tracks from some of the excellent unpublished producers from this site.

SO what is needed and I would very much like to see BOA being the vehicle of this is some kind of high quality audio sales system. I would happily spend £2.50 on a single high quality MP3 especially if I knew that money would go to the artist. It's a crying shame that some of the producers on BOA don't see a penny for their effort. After all, you'd pay any other specialist.

I also think given that this CD deck will cause a surge in MP3 usage that producers should definately stop putting whole, uninterupted track up for download. If people want you music enough to download it then they want it enough to pay £2.50 for it. You deserve it, why not ask for it?

Of course this is all subject to debate and just my opinion. I would like to hear your thoughts as to how we might protect what we do. There may well have been a fall in sales of music, accross the board, regardless of genre, however this does not mean there is not still an insatiable demand for it. Let's take what we deserve. Music kit doesn't just buy itself.

Of course the anti-corporate music part of me is screaming in my ear that this music is about freedom and we should just get it out there but there has to be a limit. Being skint is no freedom at all and if DJ's are willing to spend £6 on a record then they'll be delighted to get the same for half the price surely?

The technology inside the CDX1 makes CD's sound every bit as good as vinyl and if tunes are mastered properly (usually the DJ's assessment) then it will sound good whatever. Instead of trying to revive the old market, let's plan on ceasing the next one.

Your thoughts please.

[machina]

how does the technology inside make it sound every bit as good as vinyl? cd is digital vinyl is analog... there's no way to reproduce the warmth of vinyl in a digital format unless you "simulate" it - and that would be dumb.

machina

[AcidTrash]

how does the technology inside make it sound every bit as good as vinyl? cd is digital vinyl is analog... there's no way to reproduce the warmth of vinyl in a digital format unless you "simulate" it - and that would be dumb.

machina

The one I played with sounded awesome and is actually better for scratching than a 1210 because of it's added stability. I'm pretty convinced this thing sounds as good. Besides, party crowds don't care if it's vinyl or not. Psytrance DJ's are almost exclusively CD's these days and I've heard some pretty convincing CD sets.

[Evil G]

i hate the sound of mp3, and can barely stand the sound of cds, but you are right about the economics. i'm planning to give in to the digital age as soon as 24 bit dvd-audio decks come out.

[AcidTrash]

besides, availability and playablity of new music by new people WILL win over.

[gunjack]

bah, the death of vinyl means the death of producer's income, therefore, you will see ALOT of producers STOP MAKING TECHNO because there is nothing to eat. :doh:

[AcidTrash]

bah, the death of vinyl means the death of producer's income, therefore, you will see ALOT of producers STOP MAKING TECHNO because there is nothing to eat. :doh:

Unless we get clever. Tesco 19p noodles suck.

[killarava2day]

Is this sort of talk discussed in the house scene?

I've rarely seen it mentioned, and vinyl releases have exploded in house over the past couple of years.

Are house DJs taking to digital, FS and the like...can't say I've seen many use it.

If there was going to be a major shift like this, wouldn't it occur in the mainstream scene first? Which seems to be really set though in their own ways, and vinyl is a major part of that.

[gumpy green]

never.........im a vinyl purist.......i luv the autheticity of it. and the fact that owning the vinyl supports the artist and as it cant be copied you have to get the orig which is harder than using slsk....gives you that collectors feeling...

like stamp collectors wouldnt want digital pics of stamps theyd rather spend 5pounds on getting the real one.

and i agree if we stop getting wax itll only affect our scene...in a bad way i think

[pablo_sonic_terrorist]

MP3 is NOT the answer! It is killing music and people are paying for MP3's that cost the same price per track as a CD album.

It is a music industry led load of bollocks and i hope it dies in a horrible expensive (to the mass music industry) way.

If you are a producer and you spend an hour getting your ride sounding just right, with a tiny reverb on it, spend hours mixing down your track, then mastering it, and you have just the balance you want amongst the sounds. Then some cu*t rips it off as an mp3, you listen to it and there is just something missing from your highly polished ride you spent hours on in total. Well I'd be well pissed off!

It is true the PsyTrance scene is almost all cd deck led, though is this not led by a huge compilation cd market?

Techno is different, it has always been vinyl led and we must continue to support this format, its part of our culture.

[loopdon]

move fearwards!


i wouln't mind using one of those, tbh i'd luv to.

i think the need for pressing stuff on vinyl in order to be real (still a helluva lot of crap out there on vinyl concerning it's not as easy as putting up a cd), how many trax i would have liked, but having to buy 2-3 weak ones as well on that ep just really got to me many a time.

not everybody is in a promo-pool..... i think this is something to consider as well...


let's see what the future may bring, i am absolutely sure that these things are going to be massive.

[pablo_sonic_terrorist]

I think it is a step in the right direction to have a cd deck to play your own tracks off, but for christ sakes support the labels cos the economics of techno are ****ed up enough!

[schlongfingers]

MP3 is NOT the answer! It is killing music and people are paying for MP3's that cost the same price per track as a CD album.

It is a music industry led load of bollocks and i hope it dies in a horrible expensive (to the mass music industry) way.


MP3 is not killing music, it's enabling worldwide distribution of music within seconds - it's opening up different music to a world market whereas in the past labels have had to rely on complex international distribution agreements.

It's most certainly NOT a 'music industry led' idea, EMI etc did not INVENT digital encoding, they hated it initially and spent millions fighting against Napster etc. In time however they inevetably (and sensibly) began to ignore their pitchfork squads and pockmark inspectors in favour of informed analysis of the benefits of digital distribution - which is why all major labels are now using digital distribution as a major part of their business.


If you are a producer and you spend an hour getting your ride sounding just right, with a tiny reverb on it, spend hours mixing down your track, then mastering it, and you have just the balance you want amongst the sounds. Then some cu*t rips it off as an mp3, you listen to it and there is just something missing from your highly polished ride you spent hours on in total. Well I'd be well pissed off!

This is down to the bitrate, if it's ripped at high quality it's fine, if it's low quality it's shit.


Techno is different, it has always been vinyl led and we must continue to support this format, its part of our culture.

For me the idea behind techno is the man-machine combination in pursuit of new sounds - vinyl is purely and simply a playback mechanism.

[schlongfingers]

I think it is a step in the right direction to have a cd deck to play your own tracks off, but for christ sakes support the labels cos the economics of techno are **** up enough!

The labels need to think for themselves, analyse their distribution, cut out middlemen and concentrate on A&R and promotion.

My 25p

[jesus]

bah looks shite- if it played cd and vinyl then i would think about it. all they had to do was stick a tonearm on there somewhere :roll:

[Mucky Beats]

vinyl sales are slipping away... that is a horrible FACT . But i think we still have years left of dj playing vinyl. I mean look at the response you get when you talk of the death of the vinyl...people still love the sound and style of use of it! As do I and all the dj's i know...But we at the fat collective are investing in a cd deck because it's a wick way of testing your tunes on a crowd! thats why the two can work together for now.

[TechMouse]

vinyl sales are slipping away... that is a horrible FACT . But i think we still have years left of dj playing vinyl. I mean look at the response you get when you talk of the death of the vinyl...people still love the sound and style of use of it! As do I and all the dj's i know...But we at the fat collective are investing in a cd deck because it's a wick way of testing your tunes on a crowd! thats why the two can work together for now.
Agreed - there are enough people to get passionate about it, so it's not on the chopping board just yet. However, I don't understand why people get quite so defensive. Getting hot under the collar and stressing about "the death of vinyl" isn't going to win anyone over - if anything it just saps any confidence people may have left in the medium. If records are so much better than the alternatives then there's nothing to worry about, is there?

[dirty_bass]

Facing the inevitable. embracing it, and then getting on top of it before you get left in the wake is what it is all about.

There is no debate about the death of vinyl.
It is simply happening now.
The technology was never there for DJ`s to replace it
Now it is, these new CD players offer the manual control that DJ`s moan about.
Audio wise it is superior to vinyl as CD has none of the nasty frequency cuts that vinyl has, and of course you get no phasing problems.
Plus most of the music is recorded digitally anyway, either onto dat or CD, so the argument that vinyl is analogue and sounds better is a little bit of a no goer these days.
Who records techno to 1 inch tape and then masters to vinyl to keep all the stages analogue?
no one.

The only thing we need is a good system of distribution.
And some way of getting the money to the artisits.

mp3 is wack sound quality.

I think Wavs tracks, sold on CD singles, so you still get a product.

[AcidTrash]

" and of course you get no phasing problems"

How do you mean?

[miss bass]

I vote that everyone in techno stops saying BAH

[TechMouse]

Audio wise it is superior to vinyl as CD has none of the nasty frequency cuts that vinyl has, and of course you get no phasing problems.
Plus most of the music is recorded digitally anyway, either onto dat or CD, so the argument that vinyl is analogue and sounds better is a little bit of a no goer these days.
Who records techno to 1 inch tape and then masters to vinyl to keep all the stages analogue?
no one.
I was going to say something along these lines, but previously such statements have put me in some fairly hostile situations with vinyl purists - but do the research...

People who moan about the lack of low end in CDs - well, THAT's bollocks. CD audio is sampled at 44.1kHz - so according to the Nyquist theorem (in short: you must have a sampling rate of twice the highest frequency present to avoid adding extra harmonics) they can take any frequency BELOW 22.05kHz, with no lower bound. Compare this with the fact that bass is actually rolled off from a recording before pressing to vinyl (so the needle doesn't jump all over the shop) and then re-added when playing - which is why you need a preamp for turntables.

Then, if you look here (http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2003/ChrisDAmbrose.shtml) you'll see that "The range of hearing for a healthy young person is 20 to 20,000 hertz" - so even the high end should be fine.

Past that it's just a case of bit-depth.

PS I love records too, I'm just not afraid of new things either.

[XIM]

Does anyone know if it is possible to encrypt a digital code into an analogue signal?

[AcidTrash]

I vote that everyone in techno stops saying BAH

YES PLEASE!! I'm with you.

[AcidTrash]

Does anyone know if it is possible to encrypt a digital code into an analogue signal?

Encrypt? Either I'm being pedantic or I missed atrick somewhere.

[AcidTrash]

Audio wise it is superior to vinyl as CD has none of the nasty frequency cuts that vinyl has, and of course you get no phasing problems.
Plus most of the music is recorded digitally anyway, either onto dat or CD, so the argument that vinyl is analogue and sounds better is a little bit of a no goer these days.
Who records techno to 1 inch tape and then masters to vinyl to keep all the stages analogue?
no one.
I was going to say something along these lines, but previously such statements have put me in some fairly hostile situations with vinyl purists - but do the research...

People who moan about the lack of low end in CDs - well, THAT's bollocks. CD audio is sampled at 44.1kHz - so according to the Nyquist theorem (in short: you must have a sampling rate of twice the highest frequency present to avoid adding extra harmonics) they can take any frequency BELOW 22.05kHz, with no lower bound. Compare this with the fact that bass is actually rolled off from a recording before pressing to vinyl (so the needle doesn't jump all over the shop) and then re-added when playing - which is why you need a preamp for turntables.

Then, if you look here (http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2003/ChrisDAmbrose.shtml) you'll see that "The range of hearing for a healthy young person is 20 to 20,000 hertz" - so even the high end should be fine.

Past that it's just a case of bit-depth.

PS I love records too, I'm just not afraid of new things either.

I have no idea what you're saying there bud but I beleive you.

[miss bass]

hehe

This thread is scary really. Just thinking about all the possiblities with cd decks etc, but i still love my beloved vinyls.

Production is the way forward production is the way forward
production is the way forward

i think aswell as cds its the live sets too which are / have taken over.

[XIM]

Sorry I’ll rephrase myself.

Would it be possible to have vinyl that you can/could also store digital-data, kind of like a cd/vynil and then will have the best of both worlds!!!
;)

[gumpy green]

Sorry I’ll rephrase myself.

Would it be possible to have vinyl that you can/could also store digital-data, kind of like a cd/vynil and then will have the best of both worlds!!!
;)

mmm good point.....how on earth are you meant to skracth or juggle cds...

[gunjack]

Production is the way forward production is the way forward
production is the way forward

what does that mean? producing records? producing farts?!

[TechMouse]

Sorry I’ll rephrase myself.

Would it be possible to have vinyl that you can/could also store digital-data, kind of like a cd/vynil and then will have the best of both worlds!!!
;)

mmm good point.....how on earth are you meant to skracth or juggle cds...

CDJ-1000?

I've seen people scratch on these no problem.

The new Technics CD players even give you a spinning platter.

[Tony]

Audio wise it is superior to vinyl as CD has none of the nasty frequency cuts that vinyl has, and of course you get no phasing problems.
Plus most of the music is recorded digitally anyway, either onto dat or CD, so the argument that vinyl is analogue and sounds better is a little bit of a no goer these days.
Who records techno to 1 inch tape and then masters to vinyl to keep all the stages analogue?
no one.
I was going to say something along these lines, but previously such statements have put me in some fairly hostile situations with vinyl purists - but do the research...

People who moan about the lack of low end in CDs - well, THAT's bollocks. CD audio is sampled at 44.1kHz - so according to the Nyquist theorem (in short: you must have a sampling rate of twice the highest frequency present to avoid adding extra harmonics) they can take any frequency BELOW 22.05kHz, with no lower bound. Compare this with the fact that bass is actually rolled off from a recording before pressing to vinyl (so the needle doesn't jump all over the shop) and then re-added when playing - which is why you need a preamp for turntables.

Then, if you look here (http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2003/ChrisDAmbrose.shtml) you'll see that "The range of hearing for a healthy young person is 20 to 20,000 hertz" - so even the high end should be fine.

Past that it's just a case of bit-depth.

PS I love records too, I'm just not afraid of new things either.

:clap:

[Tony]

even if vinyl becomes outmoded as a new release product, that still doesnt stop the fact that all of us crazy bastards have tonnes of the stuff. it wont just go away.

[Mucky Beats]

Sorry I’ll rephrase myself.

Would it be possible to have vinyl that you can/could also store digital-data, kind of like a cd/vynil and then will have the best of both worlds!!!
;)

mmm good point.....how on earth are you meant to skracth or juggle cds...

CDJ-1000?

I've seen people scratch on these no problem.

The new Technics CD players even give you a spinning platter.

yeh as far as i know the new technics is about as close to a "deck" as you can get in the cd thing... but i don't reckon the dmc will be using them!!! :help:

[AcidTrash]

Sorry I’ll rephrase myself.

Would it be possible to have vinyl that you can/could also store digital-data, kind of like a cd/vynil and then will have the best of both worlds!!!
;)

mmm good point.....how on earth are you meant to skracth or juggle cds...

CDJ-1000?

I've seen people scratch on these no problem.

The new Technics CD players even give you a spinning platter.

yeh as far as i know the new technics is about as close to a "deck" as you can get in the cd thing... but i don't reckon the dmc will be using them!!! :help:

I already seem scratch masters usin the technics.

[xfive]

I see its the bi-monthly vinyl vs cd war again... yippee!! Maybe we can all choose opposite sides for arguments sake... :lol:

[audioinjection]

:lol:

[xfive]

Does anyone know if it is possible to encrypt a digital code into an analogue signal?

http://www.beigerecords.com/artists/8bitcs.html

[Francisco Scaramanga]

I've been of the opinion that vinyl should die for along time now. Not a popular opinion I know - but for fecks sake, we are into TECHNO! That has to do with "technology". So you would have thought people into techno are into pushing new technology to its limits, like really going out on a limb and seeing what can be done with all the different little gizmo's available to us.

Instead, alot of the techno scene seems to be totally hung up on the OLDEST way to record and play back music - records. Fair enough, stick with what you know and all that, but I reckon some of the stuff thats coming out now, and some of the stuff that will be out in 5 years, will allow those willing to embrace it to blow everything else out of the water.

I don't reccomend having record burnings or anything, and I intend to keep my records and turntables for a long long time, but we musn't be afraid of something new, especially when its such an improvement.

Here's another thought - I'll bet alot of musicians couldent even bear the thought of a synth when they first started appearing. But the idea of a synth/keyboard or whatever is accepted by all now - and pianos are still going strong. So perhaps there is room for everything. In fact, you still come across the odd harpsichord - and they were outmoded hundreds and hundreds of years ago.

[dirty_bass]

Sorry I’ll rephrase myself.

Would it be possible to have vinyl that you can/could also store digital-data, kind of like a cd/vynil and then will have the best of both worlds!!!
;)

mmm good point.....how on earth are you meant to skracth or juggle cds...

Who cares!!
hehe
seriously, you can scratch with CD`s, as the wav is actually prescanned into the memory of the CD player, so you are manipulatin gthe wav itself and not the CD.
So scratching, for those of you that like that old sound, can do it.

[dirty_bass]

Screw vinyl
Screw Mp3
Screw CD
Screw DVD
I`m going for holochips

It`s techno innit
;)

[dan the acid man]

Screw vinyl
Screw Mp3
Screw CD
Screw DVD
I`m going for holochips

It`s techno innit
;)


:lol: :lol:


i actually think wav is the way forward, much better than mp3s

[j_s]

Does anyone know if it is possible to encrypt a digital code into an analogue signal?

yeh - it happens every time you play a cd.

[j_s]

Screw vinyl
Screw Mp3
Screw CD
Screw DVD
I`m going for holochips

It`s techno innit
;)


:lol: :lol:


i actually think wav is the way forward, much better than mp3s

or lossless compression formats like flac.
tho in all honesty, decent quality mp3s sound fine to me....

[eyes without a face]

yet another vinyl is dying, its the end/its not the end of the world thread. and there was me thinking "ooo ive not checked the boards in a day or 2, maybe ive missed something really important"... evidently not! how many times is this argument/discussion going to be had?

here is what i think, and its this simple.... vinyl will never die out completely, as Tony said there is that much of it around that it simply cant just die out, yes sure manufacture and production of vinyl will cease one day, but it wont happen overnight.... and what the **** does it matter what medium the music is on, i thought the main thing that counted was the MUSIC! People are getting picky and technical and yes ok thats needed sometimes, people know CD's are ultimately better for sound quality when played out because there is no phasing problems, no bass feedback off the needles etc etc, but really, honestly, does it make a shred of difference what the music is on as long as the music is there? unless ur in this for the money of course and ur ultimate care is record/ep sales

instead of scaremongering about the death of vinyl, techno and life as we know it, why cant people see that it would be better alround to put ur energies into actually making some music, embracing new technologies and doing something PRODUCTIVE!

:bash:

[Mucky Beats]

IS EVERYONE MISSING THE MAIN POINT HEAR... HOW THE **** IS MARK E.G GONNA SMASH A CD OVER HIS HEAD!!!!!! it just wont work ... :crackup:

[Jimfish]

Screw vinyl
Screw Mp3
Screw CD
Screw DVD
I`m going for holochips

It`s techno innit
;)

psychic projection is the new way foward mate, read it in last months dj mag ;)

[audioinjection]

i dont really care where it goes, i love vinyl, cds are cheap

i'll still buy both if possible

[AcidTrash]

I see its the bi-monthly vinyl vs cd war again... yippee!! Maybe we can all choose opposite sides for arguments sake... :lol:

Same time next next month then? hehehe

[AcidTrash]

IS EVERYONE MISSING THE MAIN POINT HEAR... HOW THE **** IS MARK E.G GONNA SMASH A CD OVER HIS HEAD!!!!!! it just wont work ... :crackup:

Thats quote of the week.

[Internal Error Records]

everyone forgets that the clubs mostly have tech-1200's. and if you are lucky, crap cd decks.

as long as djs are using what the clubs supply, it will be 1200's.


i dont see how people sweat cd decks when in 20 years there has never even been another turntable that could replace a 1200.

[dirty_bass]

People as a whole, resist change.

[Internal Error Records]

People as a whole, resist change.

EXACTLY!

especially the types of people who open/run clubs. they are obcessed with 'industry standards'

it is absolutly mind baffling that 99.5% of clubs have tech-1200's and nothing else.

this is because of one thing. People want it that way.

Techno exploded onto vinyl during the 80's despite the simutaneous emergency of cd.

that says only one thing- "enough people want techno on vinyl for the industry to continue"


dice it, hate it, philosophize it any way you want. the fact is. many mediums exist now, and its not stopping the flow of vinyl to its lovers.

[mrbenn]

dirty_bass wrote:
Screw vinyl
Screw Mp3
Screw CD
Screw DVD
I`m going for holochips

It`s techno innit



psychic projection is the new way foward mate, read it in last months dj mag





Do we have all have to mediatate to recieve the projections? this could be a whole new era for clubbing :lol:

seriously though, I dont think a complete move to CD's should be made as the 16bit 44.1KHz standard quality just doesnt cut it. When the standard playback rate on CD decks is 24bit 96KHz I think we can justify laying the vinyl to rest as it wont be able to compete with that kind of quality.

[g]

why not use vinyl controllers to play back 24/96 files?

[Internal Error Records]

why not use vinyl controllers to play back 24/96 files?


why wont digiheads just accept that many of us are djs because WE LOVE VINYL


all the technological progress on earth cant replace that!!!

[The Overfiend]

Gil I wish we wopuld have spoke when I was sober.
I love how you think man.

[Internal Error Records]

Gil I wish we wopuld have spoke when I was sober.


Talk about a small window of opportunity. heheheh



I love how you think man.

thank you :-)

[g]

why not use vinyl controllers to play back 24/96 files?


why wont digiheads just accept that many of us are djs because WE LOVE VINYL


all the technological progress on earth cant replace that!!!
lol... not trying to change your mind about that. i love it too.
just simply responding to mrbenn's query

[g]

or i should say.. i love it too, i'm just happy not to carry it around :twisted:

[Internal Error Records]

or i should say.. i love it too, i'm just happy not to carry it around :twisted:

have you seen SOS's arms? that doesnt happen carrying around an Ipod.

[g]

haha.. can't say that i have.

[g]

haha.. can't say that i have.

[dirty_bass]

dirty_bass wrote:
Screw vinyl
Screw Mp3
Screw CD
Screw DVD
I`m going for holochips

It`s techno innit



psychic projection is the new way foward mate, read it in last months dj mag





Do we have all have to mediatate to recieve the projections? this could be a whole new era for clubbing :lol:

seriously though, I dont think a complete move to CD's should be made as the 16bit 44.1KHz standard quality just doesnt cut it. When the standard playback rate on CD decks is 24bit 96KHz I think we can justify laying the vinyl to rest as it wont be able to compete with that kind of quality.


your totalyy wrong mate there was a very educated post about this on this thread, read it.

most clubs I go to now have a nice set of denons or poineer decks in them now

[dan the acid man]

or i should say.. i love it too, i'm just happy not to carry it around :twisted:

have you seen SOS's arms? that doesnt happen carrying around an Ipod.



haha, nice one :lol:

[dirty_bass]

No he got those arms from carrying DJ`s with bad attitudes all the way to coney island so he could throw the body into the sea. :lol:

Don`t phuck with buck, cos buck will phuck you up.

[Komplex]

here is a solution to everyones problems:

Vinyl lovers: stick to vinyl and don't bitch about shit. Just get over it and keep using vinyl cus 1200's won't be disapearing any time soon. You have nothing to worry about.

Digital doods: Stop bagging vinyl. Just do your thing and don't get involved in the vinyl purist bitchness. There's nothing to prove. Let the music do the talking.

[Internal Error Records]

here is a solution to everyones problems:

Vinyl lovers: stick to vinyl and don't bitch about shit. Just get over it and keep using vinyl cus 1200's won't be disapearing any time soon. You have nothing to worry about.

Digital doods: Stop bagging vinyl. Just do your thing and don't get involved in the vinyl purist bitchness. There's nothing to prove. Let the music do the talking.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[acidsaturation]

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

I second that.

I love both.

[fatcollective]

here is a solution to everyones problems:

Vinyl lovers: stick to vinyl and don't bitch about shit. Just get over it and keep using vinyl cus 1200's won't be disapearing any time soon. You have nothing to worry about.

Digital doods: Stop bagging vinyl. Just do your thing and don't get involved in the vinyl purist bitchness. There's nothing to prove. Let the music do the talking.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

:clap: :clap: :clap: cool boys, im sick of all this vinyl bitchin, it makes me sad! :cry:

[gumpy green]

here is a solution to everyones problems:

Vinyl lovers: stick to vinyl and don't bitch about shit. Just get over it and keep using vinyl cus 1200's won't be disapearing any time soon. You have nothing to worry about.

Digital doods: Stop bagging vinyl. Just do your thing and don't get involved in the vinyl purist bitchness. There's nothing to prove. Let the music do the talking.

aye......ill be sticking with the decks for now, and i await to see folks doing good stuff with cds. i personally cant see no better use for them apart from maybe a slightly better sound quality(which i dont hear much diff between cd and vynil anyway), one day they may even get the cds to play in time with each other without having to beatmatch, great fun eh, not.

but they cant full represent a true vynil feel, not yet anyway, i think all they have is backward/forward motion sensor, which real vynil has much more (its got vibrations effects whcih are important for skratching-which aint old btw, its still very much evolving whether you understand it or not)

i think cds will eventually take the fun outta playing

[gumpy green]

saying that i think i will end up getting one of the cd decks once i have written some of my own tunes, so i can play em out.

will be adding it to the 2 1210's tho. 2 decks plus 1 cd, think that would be good.

[Barely Human]

I think someone needs to invent a viable multitrack medium. Lets say an 8 track on a cd, so you could take different parts of of the mix live. I think that could be quite intresting. As for cds that beatmatch themselves - its already available, and im all for it. Why should you have to beat match? It doesnt make the music any better, all it does is distract your attention away from being creative. Since most people can beat match pretty decently with a bit of practice, i hope we see an end to this anoyance as soon as posible.

[gumpy green]

As for cds that beatmatch themselves - its already available, and im all for it. Why should you have to beat match?


why should you have to maunually do anything?

why even bother taking yer shot off the t in golf, why not just stick the ball in the whole.

why have goalkeepers in footy, in fact why not just do away from the whole 2 teams and just have someone kick a ball over an empty goal all the time.

or get racing cars on tracks so you dont need drivers..

its all about the sport/art/whatever..........


im sure someone could write a script that would write a tune for you using random samples and random patterns but would that be any good.

what about using a cheat on a computa game so you can complete the level no sweat.....fun time ahead for som

[Barely Human]

As for cds that beatmatch themselves - its already available, and im all for it. Why should you have to beat match?


why should you have to maunually do anything?

why even bother taking yer shot off the t in golf, why not just stick the ball in the whole.

why have goalkeepers in footy, in fact why not just do away from the whole 2 teams and just have someone kick a ball over an empty goal all the time.

or get racing cars on tracks so you dont need drivers..

its all about the sport/art/whatever..........


im sure someone could write a script that would write a tune for you using random samples and random patterns but would that be any good.

what about using a cheat on a computa game so you can complete the level no sweat.....fun time ahead for som

Why should we have to care about something that doesnt effect the content of the music you are playing?? Just to make thongs hard for yourself? Just to look cool infront of your mates? To be "better" than someone at something??

Id rather concentrate on making the mix different, being able to add in as many different sources as i can to make the music different and original. I like to hear new music. I like to hear new music changed "live", but most people seam to think that this just means pulling off a perfect mix.

Is beatmatching that hard really? No, all it does is distracts from the actual music. Yes, it can be fun, but to be honest, im sick of it. It hinders me in producing something new and original.

Dont get me wrong, i love decks. But i use them for a different purpose. I am a turntablist. I have perfomed in the DMC championships. That shit is hard to learn, and that is using the deck as a musical instrument. Beat matching 2 techno records is not. Its not hard, its not clever, and its certainly not original.

[TechMouse]

im sure someone could write a script that would write a tune for you using random samples and random patterns but would that be any good.
I read an interview with Aphex Twin once where he pretty much claimed he had done this, and he's been one of the most consistantly inventive and prolific electronic artists of all time. But yeah, you're right... what's the point eh?

Anyway, if you want to be a vinyl purist, and spend oodles of time perfecting the beatmatch then go ahead, who is anyone else to stand in your way? I'm sure everyone will stroke their chin, and applaud the accuracy with which you aligned the two recordings.

I'll be over here trying to do stuff that other people haven't thought of yet.

Oh, and the music / sport analogy doesn't work on any level whatsoever.

[gumpy green]

well i can keep the beatmatch no sweat and control 2 fx units at the same time..........not very easy but thats whats the buety of it. seeing someone control all that is fairly impressive.

yer right staright forward beatmatching is easy but then again who wants to straight forward beatmacth, thats not advancing shit.

IQ- yeh as ive said beatmatching is easy and not doing much for me....thats why yav got to add shit on top of it to be considerred a good dj by me.

glad yer into turntablism , as am i, been in scotlands dmc final back in 2000 when i was into battles......lets hear some of yer stuff.

hears some o my techno-turntablism.

http://www.diversefrequencies.co.uk/temp/sekonz_skratch_example.mp3
http://www.diversefrequencies.co.uk/temp/sekonz_nervehammer_routine_plus_cuts.mp3
http://www.diversefrequencies.co.uk/temp/sekonz_juggle_with_fx_intro.mp3

i like the nervahammer juggley thingy.....to me thats pushing djing forward not using machines to do it......go live pa for that...IMO

[gumpy green]

I'll be over here trying to do stuff that other people haven't thought of yet.

Oh, and the music / sport analogy doesn't work on any level whatsoever.

what are thes new things....lets hear it then..

and the music / sport analogy does im sorry......... i couldve used other shit apart form sport...

[TechMouse]

what are thes new things....lets hear it then..
As and when I feel I've done something worth anyone listening to, I'm sure I'll stick it up in the Filez section. At which point your input will be very gratefully recieved. ;)

and the music / sport analogy does im sorry......... i couldve used other shit apart form sport...
Sport works on the premise that someone is the best at something.

You can't be "the best" at music, as it's all subjective. So, in lieu of celebrating anyone's superiority, I base my enjoyment on the diversity, creativity and "magic" (for want of a better word) involved.

So, yes, cheating at sport is stupid because you're not really achieving.

It's ok to "cheat" at music though, because there is no "winning", everyone's just enjoying the ride.

Anyway, you could argue that basic DJing is "cheating" too because the tunes have all been recorded in a studio - this is, of course, an old argument which gets on the tits of just about everyone in the electronic music scene.

The counter argument is that dance music pushes the boundaries, and there's stuff you can make in the studio that you could NEVER do live. You're saying "I'm playing records because it lets me do stuff I couldn't do otherwise". Now, where have I heard a similar statement before...?

[gumpy green]

mmmmm see yer point.....

still ill be keeping my djing live and wax and i recon ill still put on a more inovative set than most using cds will....for me one of the things i like about djing is its manul rawness.......i aint got no probs with folks going on ther seperate ways, i do actually like to see it sometimes(we got jamie ball playing for us soon using tractor to mix all his own tracks).. some may say this is cheating, i dont, fair enuf the mixin of the tracks is kiddies play as it does it for you pressinj a button but the work thats went into the tracks is ALOT(and worth a great deal in my eyes). so overall his set will be off the hook.

me personally- i may however build on my djing by adding some live boxes into the setup to do these new creative things....got a su700 that i need to get going with the dekx.....just no patterns in it yet cos im lame when it comes to production..

but when it comes to djing for me its gotta be wax and i cant see producers stoppin using it cos i recon theyd make less.....i wont change over as do most folk i know that dj.

[gumpy green]

also i think you can be better at music than someone else...

motzart was well better at music than any techno track ive ever heard....infact most o the great classical composers are on the next level...not many techno producers are.

BUT id rather listen to all you guys.....

[TechMouse]

Indeed.

Some of the best sets I've seen over the last year have been people playing with boxes / laptops, as well as CDs and also vinyl. People can do wonderful stuff with all of them, and no doubt someone will be doing something else amazing with equally improbable tools in the years to come.

Exciting innit. ;)

[gumpy green]

Indeed.

Some of the best sets I've seen over the last year have been people playing with boxes / laptops, as well as CDs and also vinyl. People can do wonderful stuff with all of them, and no doubt someone will be doing something else amazing with equally improbable tools in the years to come.

Exciting innit. ;)

yup. and ther will be folk also doing new stuff with deks that cant be done on hardware. ;)

it is looking good.

[dirty_bass]

When anything new comes along it is always resisted.
The internet was said to be rubbish, now look at us, and what a state the postal service is in because of email.
PC`s were poopooed as a production tool, and now loads of top studios are using serious software based set ups.
The car was resisted and now everybody drives.

Change is inevitable.

The signs are all there.
The FACT is that vinyl sales are down across the board.
Distributers are falling down quicker than a bunch of irish sailors on St Patricks day.
Each summer (always a difficult time for vinyl sales) things are getting tighter and tighter.
Yet still people would rather bury their head in the sand rather than except what is happening.
Eventually the current system will no longer be able to sustain itself.
And that means simply that a lot of artists we all love and respect will have to devote their time to something other than making techno music.
Artists need money to survive.

Techno is a progressive music. In all aspects we embrace new technology except with the medium it is transmitted on. Vinyl for gods sake?

Change will happen, and I would dearly love to wake more people up to it, so we can get together and seriously try to work out a way of pushing forward into the digital age in a way that will allow us to continue to do what we do.
At the moment everyone is fighting over a very small market for sales and distribution etc, and like a lake full of fish that is drying up, sooner or later the fish begin to eat each other to make more room.

Sentimentality and resistance will not help. I have sunk a lot of money into vinyl, and it hurts to let it go, but it has to happen.

This doesn`t mean vinyl should be thrown away. But people should realise what is inevitable and embrace it. We can have our cake and eat it, vinyl and a new format can survive together until people make the full transition.

But the fact is we need to start change.

[TechMouse]

But the fact is we need to start change.
... and the rewards will be great for the people who get in there first.

[Francisco Scaramanga]

I play my own tunes off my laptop, but don't have a copy of tractor - I use PCDJ red, which doesent mix them automatically. But I can't be fecked to actally make all the pitch adjustments live, so I have a number of copies of each tune, each one at a certain speed, so if I want to play at 135, all my tunes are already that speed. Or 140, or 145, or whatever, just takes sorting it out ahead of time. People have given me some shit for this in the past (calling me a cheater, etc.), but I always have the same reply - seeing as I am making all the tunes myself, and I have the power to make them easy to mix (making the speeds the same, pre storing cue points, etc.) I would have to be a grade A fool not do this, as it would be making things harder for myself, for no good reason.

I can get the tunes together well quick smart, which means I have spare time, so I can get the fx going, get a third or fourth track going, or sling a bit of drum machine over the top and get ill with the beats (or have a slurp of drink and roll a fag, hehe). Personally I find this much more fun than fecking about trying to get two records in time with each other.

Another thing - I use high quality MP3's as well as wav's, and honestly cannot tell the difference between them. Maybe on some amazing headphones or in some super acoustic listening booth with £10,000 speakers, but to the average ear, as long as your mp3s are of a sufficent quality, I reckon theres no difference.

[dirty_bass]

generally the people who say it`s cheating are the ones who have spent sooo much time learning to mix with vinyl, that it`s all they know and to see someone doing something new and different just narks em.

The art of mixing is not in the mechanical process of getting two pieces of petroleum product to rotate in unison, keeping the audio recording on it in beat sync. That`s something anyone can do with practiice.

The art is in the mix, the choice of tune, the EQing, the mix point, reading the crowd, taking chances with selection etc.

Who cares what process you get the result by.
Personally if the vinyl would get itself in time I would be very happy, cos it gives me more time to do the mixing.

Mobile phones are cheating.
You should travel to see the person you want to talk to and do it face to face.

[detfella]

but there's also art in finding the mix i think, something which ableton doesn't do cos everything can be made to be bang on before the set even starts

it's good to watch people almost lose control of a mix then bring it back

[Francisco Scaramanga]

I don't know alot about ableton, but it looks well interesting, definately someting I'll be looking into soon. But I like being able to have two tracks going through two channels on a mixer so that you can EQ them properly, or drop bits out, or whatever else you might do when mixing records. Maybe abelton does this, I dont know. I would be chuffed if it did though. In the meantime, I love my PCDJ red, its so simple, yet so effective.

[gumpy green]

DB- are vinyl sales down as a whole or is it just "per item" cos i recon sales would be up as a whole from whats going on around me...

but satying that ther are far more folk releasing tracks now so if records sales as a whole were up the individual artist could still be selling less.

i dunno what its like globally but around here i think vinyl is on the up.

i wouldnt say im or others are resisting change either, if i thought cds would be good id be adding it right now to my setup but, as ive said the only thing i can see a use for them for djing is to play my own tracks or stealing folks work.

[dirty_bass]

If sales were on the up distributers wouldn`t be falling down.
Actual volume of sales IS down, distributers don`t care about individual label sales as a rule, it`s the volume to them, as it`s all the same.
So yes there is more stuff, going into a shrinking market.
I`m not saying this for fun, it`s how it is.
Most record shops will say the same thing.

things maybe ok in edinborough by your perception, but edinborough is hardly gonna support the worldwide market.

[detfella]

anyone care to share figures with us? i seem to remember about 5-7yrs ago (head-shit-memory) sales where around 1000-2000 for an average techno release, is that about right?

[g]

you have too many zeros in there now.

[dirty_bass]

I think where once a good release was between 5 and 10 thousand
you are doing very very well now days if you hit 1500

[The Divide]

I tend to think that were not looking deep enough when talking about the recent decline in sales. For me anyways I think there’s a lot more to it than the format its sold on. Instead of blaming the format the 1st thing I would blame is the music, another thing which I feel is often overlooked is the way that it’s promoted/sold online. I don’t know about you guys but these mp3 compression rates aren’t even listenable for me and I don’t blame people for not buying records after listening to those.

I’m all for this digital thing now but I think that more needs to be done to help people purchase music. Simply changing the format isn’t enough for me.

Speaking of which, are there any good online stores which have decent mp3 previews?

[dan the acid man]

Speaking of which, are there any good online stores which have decent mp3 previews?

i cant say ive seen any, although having said that, one local record shop has some of the worst listening stations know to man, with crap headphones, cheap decks powered by crackly amps :doh:

[Internal Error Records]

I think where once a good release was between 5 and 10 thousand
you are doing very very well now days if you hit 1500


bare in mind - there are 10 times more producers than 7 years ago.

i will bet dollars to donuts the exact numbers of sales havent changed.

[dirty_bass]

I think where once a good release was between 5 and 10 thousand
you are doing very very well now days if you hit 1500


bare in mind - there are 10 times more producers than 7 years ago.

i will bet dollars to donuts the exact numbers of sales havent changed.

Overall sales have gone down.
OVERALL sales, thats everything, not sales of individual sales of labels.
There aren`t really that many more labels, as loads have disapeared.
The market isn`t that overfilled except in schranze.

And no, it`s not just down to mp3

There are a few other factors. But the Ipod age is the main factor.

Wake up and smell the copy.

Sales in music overall have gone down.
People just want something for nothing.

There is also the fact that DJing simply isn`t as popular as it was.
People now realise that after a few years, they are not gonna be the next tiesto or cox, and they (the bandwagon jumpers) have moved on to some other pipe dream of fame (big brother or something equally trite)

Is there a solution?

I don`t know. I do know that the current system we all use is pretty crap.
The artists get rinsed, returns can give you false sales figures, yadayadayada

We have a method of collective communication now.

And rather than making every excuse under the sun, to deny the facts. We should be sorting it out.

[The Divide]

There is also the fact that DJing simply isn`t as popular as it was.
People now realise that after a few years, they are not gonna be the next tiesto or cox, and they (the bandwagon jumpers) have moved on to some other pipe dream of fame (big brother or something equally trite)

Hahahahaha ****in ell man who you hanging around with? Nasty Nick? :lol:

Most the people I know stopped the djing because of how expensive it became, how there wasn’t much coming out of any interest and because of other life commitments like having kids, working, etc. Me thinks a lot of that’s due to growing up, stopping drugs and other social changes. I wouldnt say the passions gone tho

One thing is for sure, the club scene is definitely taking off this year so far. Im hoping there will be more younger people getting into it. The usual croud is getting a bit old now.

[The Divide]

Well not old old. Just older

[Internal Error Records]

Overall sales have gone down.
OVERALL sales, thats everything, not sales of individual sales of labels.
There aren`t really that many more labels, as loads have disapeared.


ok this has got to be put to an end

quote your source

what is your source for your information?

[Ginjin]

These threads always open a can of worms :lol:

[Francisco Scaramanga]

I can guarantee that overall sales, of all types of music, on all formats, everywhere in the world, are MASSIVELY down. Not just a little, but loads. But this doesent concern me, cause thats all to do with pop music being shit really. So there could still be room in there for say techno to be shifting more than years ago - but somehow I doubt this. I work in a major record store (they should really be called CD stores now though), and we used to get in a fair bit of techno on vinyl, including the odd really good release, now we dont even stock vinyl, and the only technoish CD's I can think of in the shop are a copy of Fear and Loathing 2, the Stacy Pullen fabric CD, and I think that might be it actually.

The dissapearance of all vinyl, and techno cd's, has all happened in the last 2 years by the way.

[The Divide]

On the commercial market…

I have done a bit of recent research on EMI and what’s been going on with its business structure and its recent fiscal problems. Download pdfhere if your interested. (http://www.forbiddensilence.co.uk/EMI/DJF_EMI_CASE_STUDY.pdf)

Something worth pointing out

Where global music sales have reduced the actual overall consumption of music went UP. There are more people are listening to more music than before which is due to illegal downloads making music more accessable. Unless the way they collected this data is wrong or they fiddled it.

[The Divide]

I can guarantee that overall sales, of all types of music, on all formats, everywhere in the world, are MASSIVELY down. Not just a little, but loads.

35-45%

[Internal Error Records]

I can guarantee that overall sales, of all types of music, on all formats, everywhere in the world, are MASSIVELY down. Not just a little, but loads.

35-45%

quote your source

[dirty_bass]

Overall sales have gone down.
OVERALL sales, thats everything, not sales of individual sales of labels.
There aren`t really that many more labels, as loads have disapeared.


ok this has got to be put to an end

quote your source

what is your source for your information?

This is from conversations I have had with various distributers, artists, and label owners.
I`m not gonna put anyone in it by quoting directly.
Look into it yourself and you will see.
Why would I say any of this for fun?
I`m trying to point to the fact that we need to get ahead of the game here, personally, I don`t care if everyone goes down with the ship.
I would prefer people communicate and sort it out.

[detfella]

big shop i work at: (not much techno)

all sales have increased year on year (for past 7yrs i've worked there). music market still has growth over last couple of yeas but only a small %, the dvd market has exploded (games to follow apparently...tho i dont believe this). dvd now makes the most money in the store, when it used to be cds.

cd singles are now almost defunkt, most people won't pay £4 for 3 tracks when they can pay £10 for the full album.

vinyl sales have increased as well, but the sheer number of vinyl released nowadays (all genres) means we dont stock much techno anymore because there's not enough room. plus we send them all over to basement traxx ;) would be interesting to see if paul is willing to say how well sales are going

[Internal Error Records]

This is from conversations I have had with various distributers, artists, and label owners.
I`m not gonna put anyone in it by quoting directly.
Look into it yourself and you will see.
Why would I say any of this for fun?
I`m trying to point to the fact that we need to get ahead of the game here, personally, I don`t care if everyone goes down with the ship.
I would prefer people communicate and sort it out.

This is all good and noble. And Im not point fingers at you. But many people here think there own experiences and 'what they have seen' applies everywhere. This type of information can do more bad than good.

Maybe its my fault for being a business analyst, but i just dont see much 'fact' on this forum that is certifliable fact.

I would sincerly like to see an intelligent split between personal opinions and what people claim to be facts(even if they are facts in his/her own world).

[dirty_bass]

Talk to people, get the facts about the industry.
Your in the states right, you of all people should know the plummet of the vinyl industry

[Internal Error Records]

Talk to people, get the facts about the industry.
Your in the states right, you of all people should know the plummet of the vinyl industry

actually, as a professional, you have to ask if the person you are requestign information is qaulified to render an accurate appraisal.

the fact is. running a label is easy as hell. its just alot of work. alot of EASY work.

people think they are doing enough to get the job done, but get unsatisfactory results and then blame the industry.

so no, talk to a bunch of people who speak from their own experiences does not render an acurate appraisal of the state of the industry.

[Komplex]

Maybe its my fault for being a business analyst, but i just dont see much 'fact' on this forum that is certifliable fact.


So pepole who live this sh1t and report about what happens around them aren't allowed to state what they see, hear and experience as fact? Where do facts come from in the first place? The people who are there doing it and involved with the scene. Its up to you to weed out things that aren't relevant to you and your part of the world. This site is sort of a global gathering, theres people on here from many continents so what may be fact for someone in London may not apply to someone in Philly.

This isn't a corporate meeting at Sony, nobody is even getting paid for their time to post here let alone research things in depth to include quoted "facts" in their posts. Those doods at corporate labels probably make half of their sh1t up to please their bosses anyway! We don't need to please anyone here, some people probably even like to piss each other off ;)

[Internal Error Records]

once again. im not going to defend tha value of USABLE information.

enjoy your communal mis-information. good luck making important decisions with it.

[dirty_bass]

Talk to people, get the facts about the industry.
Your in the states right, you of all people should know the plummet of the vinyl industry

actually, as a professional, you have to ask if the person you are requestign information is qaulified to render an accurate appraisal.

the fact is. running a label is easy as hell. its just alot of work. alot of EASY work.

people think they are doing enough to get the job done, but get unsatisfactory results and then blame the industry.

so no, talk to a bunch of people who speak from their own experiences does not render an acurate appraisal of the state of the industry.

So talking to shops, distributers and label owners isn`t enough?
does santa have the answer then?

[Internal Error Records]

So talking to shops, distributers and label owners isn`t enough?
does santa have the answer then?

ok ok. im not hear to bash individual experiences. and yes talking to these organizations is very good for getting THEIR information.

but i would like to see people stop aplying their expeirences to the whole world.

this forum is a global community. and from my first day here i have preached that the techno scene is banging and doign very well. but, thats my experience.

[dirty_bass]

So talking to shops, distributers and label owners isn`t enough?
does santa have the answer then?

ok ok. im not hear to bash individual experiences. and yes talking to these organizations is very good for getting THEIR information.

but i would like to see people stop aplying their expeirences to the whole world.

this forum is a global community. and from my first day here i have preached that the techno scene is banging and doign very well. but, thats my experience.

Yes but to appraise any situation then you collate as much information form as many sources as possible so as to get a good average.
THEIR information as you put it, when applied as a whole, is THE information.
Who else do we talk to, encyclopedia salesmen?
bus drivers?
I fail to see your point.

[The Divide]

I can guarantee that overall sales, of all types of music, on all formats, everywhere in the world, are MASSIVELY down. Not just a little, but loads.

35-45%

quote your source


Enders report, ‘Piracy – Will it kill the music industry?’ concluded that “digital piracy cost about 35-40% of the reduction in the size of the global music market last year”. Enders Analysis – Europe March 2003

Its in the pdf I just posted. See pdf page 11 onwards (sourced in the footnotes) :study:

Ill post some of them here...


Edison Media Research - Survey found that the heaviest downloader’s have the most negative influence on sales. Among those who have downloaded more than 100 files, roughly 16% of respondents, CD purchases dropped 61% from last year. A year ago heavy downloader’s purchased an average of 28.9 CDs a year versus the current average of 11.3 CDs. - Edison Media Research – May 2003



Global music sales fall by 7.6% in 2003 – some positive signs in 2004
• Global music sales down for a fourth consecutive year
• Illegal file-sharing hits markets internationally
http://www.ifpi.org – the recording industry world sales April 7, 2004


Even company looses at the MCPS and PRS society...


However the combined effects [for company losses] of:
Flat or falling audio-product volumes in the UK and continental Europe
Flat or decreasing dealer prices
Lower service income in(..)
Lower interest income(..)
Have put considerable pressure on the MCPS’ financial possition - MCPS newsletter – Sandra Cox, executive director

There has definitely been a decline in sales within the commercial market. As for techno, I wouldn’t know where to find the info but I would say its more than just a spreading out of sales over loads of smaller independent labels. Why? Because when I was young I knew loads of people personally out every weekend spending about 40-80 pounds on new records. Everything was new and exciting. Now I don’t see as many young people into it nowadays. You look at the crowds in Leeds and generally speaking it’s mostly the people who were into it 5 + years ago without as many new faces. Surely if the distributors are going down then its a sign that they aren’t moving as many units as they should.

However, the global markets picking up again both in CD sales and legitimate music downloads. See google for more :study:

[Sunil]

There are very little official facts or figures you are going to attain on the record industry and its sales, most of them are not specific enough and few of them are ever very up to date. The best information is usually the off the record stuff from distributors or shops, as that's the most accurate and up to date stuff.

Three years ago I was in the planning process of starting a distribution company, however within a short enough time I realised what a bad idea it was. For my market research I had to get my facts and figures of how other distributors were doing, how much they sold etc. It was at this stage of the game that I realised what a brick wall I was up against in terms of getting proper statistics back. Here in Ireland there were little recorded statistics on record sales, in fact the best study I could find was an overall chart of annual CD sales in Irish shops over the last 3 previous years, which was pretty useless to me.

My next step was to speak to distributors in Ireland and find out some figures but they were generally very guarded on giving out information on anything relating to their business or even vague indications of unit sales. In one sense I suppose they could have viewed me as a potential competitor in the future, however if sales or business were in as high a position as, say 3 years previous.. then I'm sure the unwillingness to divulge information would not have been so strong. I think this kind of thing is pretty much across the board, no-one wants to go opening their mouth when things are tight, and there's not a whole lot to be shouting about anyway. Likewise any of the independent or government bodies set up to do studies or offer information on the industry, weren't very helpful.. the simple facts were that no-one had been commissioned to do studies and of the ones that were being carried out, not much co-operation was coming back (apparantly) from the relevant sources or businesses.

Upon shelving my idea of distribution, I have instead worked in a record shop for the last three years. In that period I've noticed a marked drop in sales, not just in techno.. but across the board, right into other forms of music and into the CD market. I hear lots of facts and figures from other distributors, shops, labels and so on and none of it sounds particularly healthy at the moment.

With regard your average punter coming into the shop, few of them actually buy in bulk anymore, many of them are only looking for particular records or producers and are unwilling to accept anything else (mainly Picotto/Fergie techno converts), and others again just aren't into it anymore.

2005 has been a dreadfully slow year for releases so far, however I don't see this as a bad thing, maybe it means that some people are thinking a bit more about what they put out, and maybe other labels are just realising they can't make much money at it anymore.

[interferron]

mp3 is wack sound quality.


I just have to comment on that, which in my opinion is just something people seem to keep repeating without even bothering to check the facts (that is: listening for yourself).

There are so many different ways and settings when encoding MP3s that you cannot just generally say "MP3 is wack". I've started to convert my vinyl records to MP3s and used a whole lot of time investigating different encoders and possibilities, using Genelec studio monitors and high-quality headphones to A/B compare the original vinyl sound versus high-quality MP3 sound when done properly. I decided to go for LAME for encoding using Variable Bitrate MP3s which average at 256kbit/sec and go as high as 320kbit/sec when needed, and really I can't hear any difference between the digital file and the original vinyl at home or when playing PA.

Point: there's no single "MP3" format, some encoders and lower settings are wack, but it can be used to procude high-quality files.

[TechMouse]

Point: there's no single "MP3" format, some encoders and lower settings are wack, but it can be used to procude high-quality files.
Then there's the Ogg format...

Not so widely supported, but allegedly "better".

I can't really comment as my speakers aren't good enough.

[RDR]

interesting opinions. i dont know whats right and what isnt.

Ill ask my mates who run a record shop how sales are. they sell vinyl exclusively.

i personally hope vinyl doesnt die out. its ace.

[The Divide]

If we are going to talk about changing the format we may aswell talk about doing it to its full capabilities

Hows about some 24 bit 96k audio :love: when high speed internet takes off. Could take music beyond the usuall 16 bit 44.1k CD audio :love:

Music in surround sound anyone?

Mp3s = I would like to see the death of those things in the next few years if the internet speeds up

[gumpy green]

after speaking with variosu djs about this EVERY ONE SAID FUK THE CD....

so i challenge all producers that think cd is the way to go to start doing CD ONLY releases and see wher you get.... i recon 1 of 2 options ------ 1. yall force folks to use cd or 2. yall not sell very many.........the latter i think.

every dj ive spoken too is a vinyl luver and will continue supporting it until something better comes out(the cd is not a better tool for djing as discussed by many djs at the weekend)

[dirty_bass]

People as a whole resist change.

[gumpy green]

People as a whole resist change.unless its a change for the better.

ive changed my setup about 4times since i started djing and will again no doubt.

but not for summin thats gonna push my style backwards....cds would just not suit me and would hamper me getting on with caining it....for the folks that play a record for 3 mins then blend the next one in the cds will do em...and the cds with automatic beatmatching will suit them even more i recon. go for it folks....

[dirty_bass]

That`s a slightly childishly biased opinion.
To imply that you can`t make rapid mixes with CD is a typical comment from someone who fears change, and I know your not like that.
And auto beat matching would be fantastic.
Put in CD, wait a few seconds and BAM, you can mix, and get on with the important business.
Just you you spent years learning to beatmatch, there`s no reason to poo poo a device that would take out the bullshit mechanical process, to give more time for the creative part of mixing.

Change will happen.
Vinyl will not be able to sustain the market.
So when no labels can afford to do vinyl any more, then what do you do?
It won`t happen immediatley, but to think vinyl will just go on forever in some kind of cosy unreality like The Good Life, is very naieve.

Some DJ`s are so up their own arses with their self inportance that they forget people like to hear a tune, rather than a trick or something every 5 seconds, and a billion tunes per hour.
A combination of all styles is the answer, and as with new technology, it needs to be brought into the current situation, because the world is leaping forward, and techno DJ`s are standing still.

[Sunil]

i personally hope vinyl doesnt die out. its ace.

I don't see it happening anytime soon. As long as pressing plants can keep their heads above water, and that some labels still want to press vinyl in the knowledge that it mightn't make them too much money (if any at all) then the future is safe. Vinyl has a collectible value for music enthusiasts, and if it was a great record or better still, a rare one.. then it may hold some kind of value in 10 or 15 years time.

If Jeff Mills, Autechre, Aphex or the next big thing released 'the' album or single of this decade next week, there would be widespread demand for it on vinyl, far more so than any other format. That isn't going to change, many people don't give two hoots which format is technically better, indeed many people are not even aware which may be superior. When push comes to shove the romantic side of people comes out to support vinyl, it's the real deal.. a large object, a chunk of hard plastic.

I think if music became better then the demand for vinyl might improve, right now much vinyl out there just isn't value for money.

[Sunil]

That`s a slightly childishly biased opinion.
To imply that you can`t make rapid mixes with CD is a typical comment from someone who fears change, and I know your not like that.
And auto beat matching would be fantastic.
Put in CD, wait a few seconds and BAM, you can mix, and get on with the important business.
Just you you spent years learning to beatmatch, there`s no reason to poo poo a device that would take out the bullshit mechanical process, to give more time for the creative part of mixing.
.

Steve, you are not a DJ. I don't see how you can poo poo an active DJ who most obviously prefers spinning vinyl, and sees no reason for change. I'm afraid you are the ignorant one here, because you are not listening to or trying to understand someone's reasons for wanting to use vinyl. Outside the subject of techno, where it's at, or how groundbreaking musically techno sets are or can be; there's a physical action of using vinyl that people enjoy. Respect that.

[gumpy green]

That`s a slightly childishly biased opinion.
To imply that you can`t make rapid mixes with CD is a typical comment from someone who fears change, and I know your not like that.
And auto beat matching would be fantastic.
Put in CD, wait a few seconds and BAM, you can mix, and get on with the important business.
Just you you spent years learning to beatmatch, there`s no reason to poo poo a device that would take out the bullshit mechanical process, to give more time for the creative part of mixing.

Change will happen.
Vinyl will not be able to sustain the market.
So when no labels can afford to do vinyl any more, then what do you do?
It won`t happen immediatley, but to think vinyl will just go on forever in some kind of cosy unreality like The Good Life, is very naieve.

Some DJ`s are so up their own arses with their self inportance that they forget people like to hear a tune, rather than a trick or something every 5 seconds, and a billion tunes per hour.
A combination of all styles is the answer, and as with new technology, it needs to be brought into the current situation, because the world is leaping forward, and techno DJ`s are standing still.

honestly cds could not support some of the stuff i do.........
ive actually tryed and they just dont work. the only sensors on cd deck ive saw is a backwards forward sensor(seeing if the platter is moving in either of 2 ways and speed of movement).....that does not represent a true vinyl, you cannot vibrate a cd deck and create the same noise as a real deck..

saying that cds will have some advantages but none yet that really take my fancy.

i cant see the differnece in sales figures if it was on cd either.....why would more folks buy more cds to mix than vinyl.....i suppose cds are cheaper to produce but i dont think they would end up selling any cheaper. Plus piracy would take a huge dent out the sales....

Well maybe one day vinyl will die but ill own enuf buy then to keep going. I just like it....... but i dont think it will die, i can remember the boy in our local decks shop tellin my mates this excact same thing about 10yrs ago, so they went and bought bmx's instead....now 1 o them has decks...wished hed never listened to the boy in the shop.

i agree about some djs being up ther own arse...... its great when i come along and pull them out. ;)

and yes alot off techno djs are standing quite still, this has nothing to do with not using technology, they just dont push the artform as much as it should/could be.

[dirty_bass]

I`ve been DJing for years and years, I choose not to anymore.
I own a stupid amount of vinyl.
I`m not poo pooing any DJ who plays it. But making up stuff about the versatility of other formats is a bit duff.
I`ve tried the other forms of technology as I try to keep abreast of it, and not only have I found it to be more creative and innovative to use, but also you have the option of using a non degrading high quality source of media.

I understand the reasons for people wanting to stay with vinyl and it is mostly resistance to change.

I love vinyl, but I am under no illusion as to the longevity of it beyond a collectors folly in the future.

I understand fully the shit of mp3. You get no product at the end of the day, and it is nice to have something for your money. Something tangible. Hence at the moment CD is the only other option, and the current technology finally brings it alongside vinyl (only fear of technology is holding it back a bit, in the same way that classical instrumentalists feared the advent of the electric guitar etc)
I`m not saying people need to burn their vinyl, but honestly there needs to be a serious collecitve chat by people in the industry to face the current problems, and to assess what we can do to help the future of techno.
Their shoudln`t even be an argument of vinyl versus CD, it is a useful technology.
It`s techno for gods sake, we`re supposed to be dealing with the future here. More people should be using both formats than currently are because of uninformed stigma.


All change is resisted, look at anything new, it always was resisted at the start, someone has to play devils advocate to bring things forward. What I`m saying is not to harm the scene in any way.

[gumpy green]

why would the cd be better for the techno ecomomy/sales?

if a single cd was £5 as was a single LP.

then folk would still buy the same amount......only thing i can see happening is more profit(dunno how much more the artist would get) as production costs would be well down....but i really do think piricy would totally fuk shit up, Were all going to have at least 4-8mb connections soon(prob higher the time for vinyl to die, if it did).. so, stealing tunes would be so easy, why buy?

it would be nice to think that folk would support ther artists and buy the orig but folk just like stuff for free. i can just see some folks "tune collection" if this was to happen...theyd have about every tune ther is and wouldnt have bought any of it.

[Sunil]

Thing is that some people use vinyl in different ways, cuing up with vinyl can be a lot faster for some people or indeed more natural. As for talk of auto beat matching, I really don't like that idea I have to say, will these contraptions play your set for you as well?!

The problem with decks or more than 2 decks at once is that it encourages the DJ to play the same sounding records for the whole set, and puts showmanship above the music in most cases... finding that happy medium is obviously desirable.

I definitely think people need to look for that alternative to a third deck, be it a laptop, CD deck, a microphone or whatever! And to introduce more elements other than a loop that's the same as on the decks. Many of the current techno icons for fast mixing don't play inspiring music, others pretend to play on a massive DJ set up when they are doing little more than pressing a few FX and playing the same record again and again... we have to move beyond that and make things (and the quality of musical delivery) genuinely more exciting again. There's a whole world of music out there, techno needs to be less incestuous.

[dirty_bass]

why would the cd be better for the techno ecomomy/sales?

if a single cd was £5 as was a single LP.

then folk would still buy the same amount......only thing i can see happening is more profit(dunno how much more the artist would get) as production costs would be well down....but i really do think piricy would totally fuk shit up, Were all going to have at least 4-8mb connections soon(prob higher the time for vinyl to die, if it did).. so, stealing tunes would be so easy, why buy?

it would be nice to think that folk would support ther artists and buy the orig but folk just like stuff for free. i can just see some folks "tune collection" if this was to happen...theyd have about every tune ther is and wouldnt have bought any of it.

Ok well your figures for CD singles are based on the majors, and not on a system that could be set within the techno market.

It would be much easier to run things internationally as shipping would be so much cheaper. And curently vinyl shipping is sick. Causing places like south america to be a no go area (without accounbting for their crazy tax as well)

Production costs are lower, I`m sure we could sell the CD`s for a lower price than vinyl, and still improve the amount that goes to the artist.

As fo piracy effecting things.
Erm
It already is, you can go to soulseek and find anything that is on vinyl pretty much straight away.
So changing to digital format I don`t think will make a huge difference to the scurge of piracy.

[dirty_bass]

As for talk of auto beat matching, I really don't like that idea I have to say, will these contraptions play your set for you as well?!
.

Come on, lets not get immature here.
Beat matching is a mechanical skill, and is not what mixing is about.
A machine won`t be able to eq for you, or choose the tune, or choose the right place to mix depending on the way the crowd is going, or make little tricks that edge on the tension or whatever.

If you slapped a piece of vinyl straight on the deck and it was in as soon as it hit the platter, imagine how much of a cool mix you could do.

It makes the important part of mixing easy. Lets not pretend here that beatmatching is some amazing feat.

[Sunil]

As for talk of auto beat matching, I really don't like that idea I have to say, will these contraptions play your set for you as well?!
.

Come on, lets not get immature here.
Beat matching is a mechanical skill, and is not what mixing is about.
A machine won`t be able to eq for you, or choose the tune, or choose the right place to mix depending on the way the crowd is going, or make little tricks that edge on the tension or whatever.

If you slapped a piece of vinyl straight on the deck and it was in as soon as it hit the platter, imagine how much of a cool mix you could do.

It makes the important part of mixing easy. Lets not pretend here that beatmatching is some amazing feat.

hehe, no-one's being immature.
Cuing up fast is a skill in itself, why not recognise that?
Ever heard of Jeff Mills?
I don't feel I'm talking to someone here who DJs themselves or thinks like a DJ.. that's fine though ;)

Beatmatching is part one in the cycle of mixing a record. Nobody said beatmatching is an amazing feat, but it's a basic skill that DJs should have to attain.

[gumpy green]

about the cd sales thing...yeh i can see shipping tons of records would cost alot so yeh that is defo a good thing. but even at that i get alot of stuff from abroad and the shipping aint too bad....comparred to foks like juno- SHOCKING IMO, ive only ordered from them a couple of time cos of this....how much money they couldve made from me if ther shipping was cheaper.

ive had stuff over from germany that didnt cost too much, like 15 records costing maybe 7-8 quid for postage. but yes defo would save some money for folks selling/producing records.

but cmon surely the piricy thing will fuk shit up.....sure ther are foks dling loads of illegal tracks but ther arnet playing them out(mostley), djs are still buying records to play out, it would only be folk dling em to listen to..

if it remianed strictly wax then djs have to buy tracks..

about beatmatching....that is a dj skill and yes could be replaced but then whers the fun.....its so pleaseing to have held 2 tracks togther whilst equing mashing up effects all at the same time....iITS WHAT IS ABOUT, amanual skill.

leave the automation to live sets......

im totally with you about adding some other stuff to the dj setup......i plan on doing that sometime in the next yr or so....got a su700 that i think could work rally well with the deks. wanna be able to add my own vocals and noises over some tracks, think this may work well.

but ill still be keeping it all manual.

[eyes without a face]

is this still going?

i cant believe how some people just wont accept the argument Steve is putting over here, especially regarding sales, the mans speaking truth!

as for the technologies, damn, they are here already, so why do people talk like they are waiting for aliens to land with these new cd decks? the new technics and pioneers emulate a turntable 100% and thats the truth... 100 total english %... there is nothing any dj on here or anywhere could not do on it compared to a proper technic... apart from something like shaking the deck and getting the feedback, which im not sure why anyone wud want to do anyway really, especially in a packed club and risking the needle jumping, but anyways.....

can we move on people? can those who are afraid of new technologies and who are happy to sit in their bedroom on a heap of vinyl in 5 years please just accept that this change will happen, it already is but i mean one day itl b here, and vinyl will no longer be the primary format for techno releases, regardless of how many friends u may have who claim its still alive and kicking.... and can those who do embrace this change just errr i dunno... keep embracing it?

[gumpy green]

one thing you cant do is

needle dropping.

thats wher you hav stickers on yer record to guid the needle to the excact spot you want. hence droppin it right in where you want. that is an art in itself nevermind what comes after it. i suppose you could do it with cds if you could tell them the excact time to go to but this would take longer than lifting the record and droppin it on...but then again not many techno djs can be arsed learning shit like this.

ill await to see this change and its effects...i for one think itll damage the sales but then again i could see this as a good thing, folk wont be in it for the money....., then only folk with the passion will do it, maybe less release but higher quality.

[Sunil]

is this still going?

i cant believe how some people just wont accept the argument Steve is putting over here, especially regarding sales, the mans speaking truth!


All this crystal ball gazing annoys me. Many labels lose money already, what happens if labels make better records? They could sell more, right? Why do we all assume that vinyl will just crumble and that'll be it? That every single label going will just go "Yeah, we've had enough" and stop pressing vinyl? Many labels lose money anyway, but continue regardless. Some labels I'm sure are selling more records now than they did when they started out. CD and vinyl sales are down, and by that reckoning we could say CDs are on their way out too, couldn't we? (there are some people who already say this)

People don't have to embrace CD decks fully. There's no doubt that they are useful machines, but not everyone needs or wants them to perform. Not everyone would enjoy the clinical nature of auto beat matching for instance, however they might like a CD deck just for playing their own tracks, alongside decks.. why can that not continue unchanged, I don't understand? It doesn't have to be one or the other, discard vinyl or else you aren't embracing the future.. that's rubbish.

[eyes without a face]

i dont mean discard it or fall at ur peril literaly, but one day, and i mean literaly here, vinyl production will stop... there will be one release that will be, and im talking officially in the eyes of the labels, manufacture's, the last record pressed to vinyl for distribution in the global market, there will b people pressing bootlegs up and what have u, and this maybe not in our how do i put it, "techno timescale" it maybe years after we all think, and sales will switch over completely to CD.... i just mean its silly and very strange to really not realise this will happen one day, and as ive just said it may not happen so that it affects us, but it will happen!!!..... i for one hope i never have to switch over to CD djing totally but if it has to be it has to be, im a total vinyl addict and cant even imagine it but over the next few years who knows what will happen... who knows how even further developed will technologies become in the switch over to the more digital age?.... time will tell

one thing you cant do is

needle dropping.

thats wher you hav stickers on yer record to guid the needle to the excact spot you want. hence droppin it right in where you want. that is an art in itself nevermind what comes after it. i suppose you could do it with cds if you could tell them the excact time to go to but this would take longer than lifting the record and droppin it on...but then again not many techno djs can be arsed learning shit like this

but this is real old skool hip hop stuff and ok u might enjoy doing this and u may do it really really really well, but practically, in a packed, techno club full of ur average punter whose out to have a good time, this is going to go relatively unoticed, unless u are at the top of ur game like someone like Dave Clarke where ur everymove is pretty much under scrutiny during the whole set... it makes sense to put more effort into the basic practicalities of djing such as beatmatching etc which again im sure u do just fine im not questioning any or your's or anyone else's skills for that matter, im a dab hand on the old turntables if i do say so myself but its not the be all and end all where im concerned its whats coming out the speakers at the end of the day....

which is pretty much what the whole thing boils down to for me..... whats coming out of those lovely speakers :)

[dirty_bass]

I`m leaving this now as it`s really not going anywhere.

I hope that things can be worked out by sensible people within the industry.


ill await to see this change and its effects...i for one think itll damage the sales but then again i could see this as a good thing, folk wont be in it for the money....., then only folk with the passion will do it, maybe less release but higher quality.

I hate it when I see statements like this.
I think most of the money motives have gone from techno, I doubt there are many people in it purely for the money, if you wann make money, then do house.
However artists are allowed to be recompensated for their work, and if you expect quality techno to go on being made to allow you to play records, when the artists recieve no recompense, then you are under an illusion.
The person that sells the vinyl at the shop gets paid, the person you buy your petrol from to drive your car to the record shop, gets paid, the postman who delivers the records to the shop gets paid.
Why shouldn`t the artist get something for the work he or she is making that gives these other people their jobs.



Regardless of the argument, that shouldn`t even be an argument, but more of a discussion to solve the problem.
Change is coming, and if not coming, it is most definitely needed.
The whole system is creaking now.
We currently sit in a state of limbo.
Vinyl`s future is uncertian.
No one really knows which format will be the dominant one in the future, and most people won`t even discuss it.
So currently we sit in this kind of wierd situation, where all the distributers and labels, are kind of scrabbling and shuffling on this sinking ship, to get to the highest point, no one has an idea about what to do, no one is even bailing any water out, and some people have their eyes closed and deny even the excistance of the approaching water.

Will things settle down to a reduced level and just stay that way?
Will there be a second dance explosion?
Will people suddenly reject all the new technology and go back to vinyl?
Will the market finally crash and only those who have jumped to the awaiting speedboat survive?

Who knows, but things need to be acknowledged for us to even begin to move ahead.

[Craig McW]

TBH I don't care which way it goes, but I ain;t ripping everything to CD and buying CDJs like those till they become standard in clubs I play at.

I'm considering the final Scratch option, hopefully they got to AIF format soon, then my decision will be made. Till then I'll buy vinyl.

And even after that, I'll buy vinyl.

But hey, my opinion doesn't count for shit really.

[Komplex]

Yes it does Craig. Everyones oppinion counts.

I think the final scratch (and serato) option is the one everyone is forgetting about when mentioning cd's. CD's are just a delivery format. You put the audio from cd's onto your computer into whatever format you want and then mix however you want to. Is that logical or am I dumb or something? The skill and feel of using vinyl doesn't disapear and you can intermix with old vinyl favorites straight off the decks.

[Craig McW]

Greg, that is exactly why I'm considering it. I take the format with me wherever I go, it's easy, and it incorporates vinyl.

Just MP3 is a shitty format.

[gumpy green]

one thing you cant do is

needle dropping.

thats wher you hav stickers on yer record to guid the needle to the excact spot you want. hence droppin it right in where you want. that is an art in itself nevermind what comes after it. i suppose you could do it with cds if you could tell them the excact time to go to but this would take longer than lifting the record and droppin it on...but then again not many techno djs can be arsed learning shit like this

but this is real old skool hip hop stuff and ok u might enjoy doing this and u may do it really really really well, but practically, in a packed, techno club full of ur average punter whose out to have a good time, this is going to go relatively unoticed, unless u are at the top of ur game like someone like Dave Clarke where ur everymove is pretty much under scrutiny during the whole set... it makes sense to put more effort into the basic practicalities of djing such as beatmatching etc which again im sure u do just fine im not questioning any or your's or anyone else's skills for that matter, im a dab hand on the old turntables if i do say so myself but its not the be all and end all where im concerned its whats coming out the speakers at the end of the day....
)

no this is not limited to hip hop......its them who(mostely) are doing it but its part of the art of djing....thats my point, not many in techno really want to do anything but blend/mix.....

they seem to forget that thers a pure art form sitting right in front of them.

for me djing aint all about the music, its about the manual skills that you use to "paint your picture". Some set could sound equally as good without tricks and just tunes but then i dont think the dj has been working his art. Same with production, thers tunes that are simple that sound good.

anyway i agree, this topic is really going no wher now....we shall just have to wait and see what the future holds.....hopefully it all.

[eyes without a face]

i didnt say it was limited to hip hop dude, i said it was old hip hop shit... which it is... people using it in techno have developed the idea from seeing the hip hop kids doing, so to feel that its doing something new is not right, because its not, its impressive sure and probably a wikid feeling to pull off, ut its not doing anything to further djing and there are so other many tricks that dont take as much pre-thought i.e putting stickers on ur records, that make the room go off just as well if not more

but i agree this post is going nowhere, im out!

[TechMouse]

one thing you cant do is

needle dropping.

thats wher you hav stickers on yer record to guid the needle to the excact spot you want. hence droppin it right in where you want. that is an art in itself nevermind what comes after it. i suppose you could do it with cds if you could tell them the excact time to go to but this would take longer than lifting the record and droppin it on...but then again not many techno djs can be arsed learning shit like this.
Cue points?

Have you ever actually used a CD deck? Or are you just guessing...

[slavestudios]

this is going to go relatively unoticed, unless u are at the top of ur game like someone like Dave Clarke


HA HA HA HAAAAAA


cds.. if you like em. use em.. if you dont, dont.

but will ppl stop trying to convince everyone else they are right ?

would it kill someone to accept others may feel differently ?


jesus... this argument has been done to death..

GIVE IT UP & GO DO SOMETHING LESS BORING INSTEAD :)

[TechMouse]

As for talk of auto beat matching, I really don't like that idea I have to say, will these contraptions play your set for you as well?!
Mate, you sound almost as if you're actually scared that these computers are gonna come in and steal all your DJ gigs!

Lets be clear: I'm comfortable in the knowledge that there are things I am always going to be better than a computer at doing. Picking the right records, reading the crowd, knowing when to drop the bass back in for maximum effect etc. Whatever your little tricks are, their your little bits of artistic flair, and a machine has no hope in hell of emulating them.

All Steve is saying is that given the knowledge of the relative BPMs of two pieces of music, a computer will be much better at getting them playing at the same speed, and in time - and will do it much faster than anyone here.

Exploit the computer for what it's good at - number crunching (no one expects you to do DSP in your head, do they) - and free up more time for you to do the fun stuff. Unless you find beatmatching fun, in which case go ahead, enjoy.


Ever heard of Jeff Mills?
No, who is he?

[TechMouse]

jesus... this argument has been done to death..

GIVE IT UP & GO DO SOMETHING LESS BORING INSTEAD :)
For sure man, you're right.

It is pointless trying to argue a case of differing opinion... I just think some people have missed the point of what's being said. No one is trying to plead superiority, just acceptance.

[OriginalTechnobastard]

In my humble opinion...

Much though we may try to deny it vinyl is on its way out for the reason illustrated below...

http://shopping.search.ch/images/products/large/4e/zumi-cdx1.jpg

That and pressing tunes is stupidly expensive for producers who give up virtually everything in the way of financial income to make the music we need. This is killing it in my view and this CD deck is the answer to my prayers.

The scene in my view does need a shake up as the same names keep cropping up on flyers and records and it's hard to go to a UK club and not have heard virtually every other track if you have your eye on the ball. Fresh blood is needed and the answer is here.

I've heard some reasonably innovative ideas on how to revive vinyl but technology has finally spoken and it just aint gonna happen. I for one will be purchasing one of the above CD decks because it looks and behaves like a real deck which means I can now play my own tracks and the tracks from some of the excellent unpublished producers from this site.

SO what is needed and I would very much like to see BOA being the vehicle of this is some kind of high quality audio sales system. I would happily spend £2.50 on a single high quality MP3 especially if I knew that money would go to the artist. It's a crying shame that some of the producers on BOA don't see a penny for their effort. After all, you'd pay any other specialist.

I also think given that this CD deck will cause a surge in MP3 usage that producers should definately stop putting whole, uninterupted track up for download. If people want you music enough to download it then they want it enough to pay £2.50 for it. You deserve it, why not ask for it?

Of course this is all subject to debate and just my opinion. I would like to hear your thoughts as to how we might protect what we do. There may well have been a fall in sales of music, accross the board, regardless of genre, however this does not mean there is not still an insatiable demand for it. Let's take what we deserve. Music kit doesn't just buy itself.

Of course the anti-corporate music part of me is screaming in my ear that this music is about freedom and we should just get it out there but there has to be a limit. Being skint is no freedom at all and if DJ's are willing to spend £6 on a record then they'll be delighted to get the same for half the price surely?

The technology inside the CDX1 makes CD's sound every bit as good as vinyl and if tunes are mastered properly (usually the DJ's assessment) then it will sound good whatever. Instead of trying to revive the old market, let's plan on ceasing the next one.

Your thoughts please.

Haven't really been reading all of the messages in this forum but I have a question. Was this message presented for test marketing purposes and or approvals? If so here is a :clap: !
No seriously. If you gonna get it, get it. I might buy one for portability purposes but vinyls sound different then a cd. More authentic so it will always be better :cool:

[gumpy green]

one thing you cant do is

needle dropping.

thats wher you hav stickers on yer record to guid the needle to the excact spot you want. hence droppin it right in where you want. that is an art in itself nevermind what comes after it. i suppose you could do it with cds if you could tell them the excact time to go to but this would take longer than lifting the record and droppin it on...but then again not many techno djs can be arsed learning shit like this.
Cue points?

Have you ever actually used a CD deck? Or are you just guessing...

used one yes......... never saw how to get straight to a certian point, say just b4 the break or a certain sample.

hows it done? does the cd player save it drop in points in its memory or summin?

[gumpy green]

GIVE IT UP & GO DO SOMETHING LESS BORING INSTEAD :)

what like work, fuk that id rather skive ;)

hope all is well pete

[TechMouse]

hows it done? does the cd player save it drop in points in its memory or summin?
Yeah, pretty much.

You can save cue & loops points for many, many CDs to the memory of your CD deck. If you've got the higher-end models (CDJ-1000, I think) you can dump these to a flash card which you can stick in the CD decks in the club you're playing at later.

That's just the tip of the iceberg too.

I'm just sitting around waiting for the cost of these things to come down.

[djshiva]

I see its the bi-monthly vinyl vs cd war again... yippee!! Maybe we can all choose opposite sides for arguments sake... :lol:

HAHAHAHA...love it...

[gumpy green]

hows it done? does the cd player save it drop in points in its memory or summin?
Yeah, pretty much.

You can save cue & loops points for many, many CDs to the memory of your CD deck. If you've got the higher-end models (CDJ-1000, I think) you can dump these to a flash card which you can stick in the CD decks in the club you're playing at later.

That's just the tip of the iceberg too.

I'm just sitting around waiting for the cost of these things to come down.

sound fairly good. depending on the size of memory you have that does sound interesting......if you could easily save 500 records data then it would be well good.

still wont be as fun mixin tho, pressing buttons.

i enjoy the manual aspect of it but will keep my eye on the cd dek developments.....may have to add one to the 2 1210's in a yr or 2 if things get better with them.

cant ever see me stopping the vinyl tho......just luv mixin on it, it almost my life ;) as you can tell from my arguments....lol

[djshiva]

or i should say.. i love it too, i'm just happy not to carry it around :twisted:

have you seen SOS's arms? that doesnt happen carrying around an Ipod.

you should see my neck and shoulder muscles.

hard as a rock. i don't think i can get that kinda workout with cd cases, but hey... :lol:

[gumpy green]

just read the future music review of it at lunch.

thers some things on ther that do take my fancy.....looks a good tool.

[gumpy green]

why cant you edit yer posts....this is a bit anooying sometimes...

anyway- i also see thay have them set out much better, like how i use my decks, at 90degrees, defo a good move, can undertand why folks want deks the "conventional"way it makes them further apart and yer left dek needle is in the way.

[AcidTrash]

That`s a slightly childishly biased opinion.
To imply that you can`t make rapid mixes with CD is a typical comment from someone who fears change, and I know your not like that.
And auto beat matching would be fantastic.
Put in CD, wait a few seconds and BAM, you can mix, and get on with the important business.
Just you you spent years learning to beatmatch, there`s no reason to poo poo a device that would take out the bullshit mechanical process, to give more time for the creative part of mixing.

Change will happen.
Vinyl will not be able to sustain the market.
So when no labels can afford to do vinyl any more, then what do you do?
It won`t happen immediatley, but to think vinyl will just go on forever in some kind of cosy unreality like The Good Life, is very naieve.

Some DJ`s are so up their own arses with their self inportance that they forget people like to hear a tune, rather than a trick or something every 5 seconds, and a billion tunes per hour.
A combination of all styles is the answer, and as with new technology, it needs to be brought into the current situation, because the world is leaping forward, and techno DJ`s are standing still.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[AcidTrash]

As for talk of auto beat matching, I really don't like that idea I have to say, will these contraptions play your set for you as well?!
.

Come on, lets not get immature here.
Beat matching is a mechanical skill, and is not what mixing is about.
A machine won`t be able to eq for you, or choose the tune, or choose the right place to mix depending on the way the crowd is going, or make little tricks that edge on the tension or whatever.

If you slapped a piece of vinyl straight on the deck and it was in as soon as it hit the platter, imagine how much of a cool mix you could do.

It makes the important part of mixing easy. Lets not pretend here that beatmatching is some amazing feat.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[AcidTrash]

is this still going?

i cant believe how some people just wont accept the argument Steve is putting over here, especially regarding sales, the mans speaking truth!

as for the technologies, damn, they are here already, so why do people talk like they are waiting for aliens to land with these new cd decks? the new technics and pioneers emulate a turntable 100% and thats the truth... 100 total english %... there is nothing any dj on here or anywhere could not do on it compared to a proper technic... apart from something like shaking the deck and getting the feedback, which im not sure why anyone wud want to do anyway really, especially in a packed club and risking the needle jumping, but anyways.....


Yeah pretty much

[FILTERZ]

why cant we have both

[AcidTrash]

why cant we have both

Economies of scale dear boy.

Whats the point of a record player if no-ones making records?

Unless of course someone comes up with an infallable way of cheaply manufacuring vinyl at home in the same way a CD burner works.

[gumpy green]

why cant we have bothwe will......dont let these folks tell you otherwize.

its been getting said for yrs......ther just too many vinyl junkies out ther for it to happen, just now or in the next 5yrs

and even when/if it does, itll not be in our life time.....if it did tho- i have enuf records to keep me going now, and thers still loads kicking about in shops..

actually when folks start sellin theyr recs to buy cds im gonna snap em all up ;) n the cheap.

[gumpy green]

why cant we have both

Economies of scale dear boy.

Whats the point of a record player if no-ones making records?

Unless of course someone comes up with an infallable way of cheaply manufacuring vinyl at home in the same way a CD burner works.

but ther will still be producers doing records, the ones that luv records.......ive not heard many saying ther stoppin..mind you i only know a few.

who on here that releases tracks is going to stop making vinyl and start making cds instead??? the change will be slow so im not worried(yet).

[tocsin]

how does the technology inside make it sound every bit as good as vinyl? cd is digital vinyl is analog... there's no way to reproduce the warmth of vinyl in a digital format unless you "simulate" it - and that would be dumb.

machina

None of the instruments I use to make music nowadays, nor most of anyone else who's music I've been listening to a lot over the past 8 years, is analog in the slightest. So, really, I couldn't care less if the medium I have a song on in the end is either vinyl or CD.

As for the comments someone made about producers losing income, I really fail to see how that has anything to do with the medium something is pressed on. If it's a "duh" thing then please explain it to me since the mechanicals I see from vinyl or CD aren't any different in number and, generally, I see more roaylties coming back my way through CD sales than I ever have through vinyl.

[dirty_bass]

Lets just stop this now.
There is so much fear going on about inevitable change that it`s frightening me. New technology is here, I say, at least try it before you discount it totally.

The facts about sound reproduction are all in this thread for anyone moaning on about "vinyl is analogue" so that isn`t even in question.

Essentially things are ropey with the scene right now.

Expect more distributers to fall down this summer.

[AcidTrash]

Time for a threadlock and consign this one to the gutters of history?

[tocsin]

I'd still like to know why people think that dwindling vinyl use means less money for the artists. I'm just not following this. On a side note, the last mix where a track written by myself and the other guys I work with will see some money from was only released on CD. So, a DJ played the song off of CD in his set and the mix was being sold at the last Hellbound party I guess. I'm just confused on this one as I don't see how vinyl is necesarilly beneficial or harmful for producers in regards to sales. Vinyl sells to one specific crowd. CDs sell to another crowd or a mixed crowd when it comes to recording medium preferences.

[dirty_bass]

I'd still like to know why people think that dwindling vinyl use means less money for the artists. .

basic economics?
Less sales = Less money.

[tocsin]

Ok. Now, how many artists/producers here limit themselves to only being released on vinyl? I know I don't.

[Sunil]

As for talk of auto beat matching, I really don't like that idea I have to say, will these contraptions play your set for you as well?!
Mate, you sound almost as if you're actually scared that these computers are gonna come in and steal all your DJ gigs!

Not at all. I'm holding out for the super dooper model that'll give oral sex everytime the crowd cheer.



Lets be clear: I'm comfortable in the knowledge that there are things I am always going to be better than a computer at doing. Picking the right records, reading the crowd, knowing when to drop the bass back in for maximum effect etc. Whatever your little tricks are, their your little bits of artistic flair, and a machine has no hope in hell of emulating them.

I didn't think we were talking about computers? Anyway I go with what you are saying, it leads to the same reason why I'm not interested in replacing vinyl with CD.


All Steve is saying is that given the knowledge of the relative BPMs of two pieces of music, a computer will be much better at getting them playing at the same speed, and in time - and will do it much faster than anyone here..

Well to be honest I am far more interested in using a computer in preference to a CD deck, I see far more possibilities to using a laptop in tandem with decks.



Unless you find beatmatching fun, in which case go ahead, enjoy...

Yes I do find beat matching fun, it's a terrible pity that such a basic enjoyment of Djing should be scoffed at. I mean what do we want to do, completely kill the live aspect of DJing as we know it? Things are so calculated and clinical these days as it is (which is what turns a lot of people off the music).. auto beat matching is only going to add to that. It comes down the the same old thing though.. if there were better music to play, we wouldn't be getting as flustered over CD vs Vinyl as sales would not be suffering as much. Good music = more sales.

Btw. guys, I think many of you are completely neglecting to realise that ALL music sales are down, not just vinyl. So vinyl is going to die, we are all going to die too, but until some of you can put a rough time frame on when this may come about then it's pretty much an unvalidated arguement. Vinyl may decrease in popularity but it's not going anywhere anytime soon, I challenge anyone here to try and prove otherwise.

[dirty_bass]

If things carry on as they are, I can see a high percentage of labels stopping vinyl production within the next 2 years. Whether by their own choice or not.

[Sunil]

If things carry on as they are, I can see a high percentage of labels stopping vinyl production within the next 2 years. Whether by their own choice or not.

Sure, but there's no guarantee that things will just die off, it may be the digital revolution but vinyl's been around a long time, plus I'm sure you'll agree that the vast amount of producers out there will want their music to hit wax rather than anything else. As they say: As long as there's a will, there's a way ;)

[audioinjection]

yeah, i doubt vinyl will ever go away

[Sunil]

[quote=dirty_bass]If things carry on as they are, I can see a high percentage of labels stopping vinyl production within the next 2 years. Whether by their own choice or not.

It's definitely not healthy now, and there's many producers who release little these days and others that are about to jump ship.. this is the shit reality alright. Wish I knew the answer.. maybe less distributors, and of those left that they have a stricter control over what goes out? Hmm, but then they wouldn't make money. Maybe labels need to be more cautious, clever and astute in business before they go starting labels, otherwise they will truly lose their bollocks, and swamp the market more than it actually needs.

[dirty_bass]

It`s a combination of things, but it needs to be discussed.

Peronally as a producer, I can`t wait for the vinyl to change to something other than vinyl.
Vinyl has so many abberations you have to correct for, bass phasing, top end, stereo field, loudness, track length compared to bass size, cutting speed.
It`s very rare your master will sound the same once it goes to vinyl.

[eyes without a face]

this thread has almost made me lose my will to live........

oh shit........

there it goes.....

[The Divide]

this thread has almost made me lose my will to live........

oh shit........

there it goes.....

I heard you felt that way when the spice girls split up scotty :lol:

Come on guys cheer up

MUSIC WILL NEVER DIE

[eyes without a face]

dont bring up that era mate please.... it was a bad time..... i still cant bring myself to open "Spice World" on DVD that i got for xmas

[detfella]

if we lived in a free world no of this shit would matter!

[Craig McW]

What sh1ts me the most is how expensive all the new technology is. I mean come one, who has that much dosh for a CDJ or Final Scratch, and all the money needed for production tools.

I'm starving as it is. And I work full time as a designer!

[dirty_bass]

Price will fall.

[TechMouse]

As for talk of auto beat matching, I really don't like that idea I have to say, will these contraptions play your set for you as well?!
Mate, you sound almost as if you're actually scared that these computers are gonna come in and steal all your DJ gigs!
Not at all. I'm holding out for the super dooper model that'll give oral sex everytime the crowd cheer.
Ah, that's the pleasure 2000 - they stock those in Soho.



Lets be clear: I'm comfortable in the knowledge that there are things I am always going to be better than a computer at doing. Picking the right records, reading the crowd, knowing when to drop the bass back in for maximum effect etc. Whatever your little tricks are, their your little bits of artistic flair, and a machine has no hope in hell of emulating them.
I didn't think we were talking about computers? Anyway I go with what you are saying, it leads to the same reason why I'm not interested in replacing vinyl with CD.
Who wants to replace? I love my vinyls. I just don't hate CDs.



All Steve is saying is that given the knowledge of the relative BPMs of two pieces of music, a computer will be much better at getting them playing at the same speed, and in time - and will do it much faster than anyone here..
Well to be honest I am far more interested in using a computer in preference to a CD deck, I see far more possibilities to using a laptop in tandem with decks.
To be honest, most consumer electronics devices these days are computers. They have generic microprocessors loaded with some kind of OS / firmware with the instructions to do their task. This is much cheaper than making dedicated hardware. I have no doubt this is true of CD decks. When I say "a comupter" I mean a programmable, electronic device. Don't kid yourself that a PC is any "cleverer" than your Microwave. It's just got less restrictions.



Unless you find beatmatching fun, in which case go ahead, enjoy...
Yes I do find beat matching fun, it's a terrible pity that such a basic enjoyment of Djing should be scoffed at. I mean what do we want to do, completely kill the live aspect of DJing as we know it? Things are so calculated and clinical these days as it is (which is what turns a lot of people off the music).. auto beat matching is only going to add to that.
Fair enough, I have to cave to this one - I quite enjoy simple mixing too. But I'm not averse to the idea of letting a computer (or CD deck or whatever) do it while I try something else for a bit.

[TechMouse]

What sh1ts me the most is how expensive all the new technology is. I mean come one, who has that much dosh for a CDJ or Final Scratch, and all the money needed for production tools.

I'm starving as it is. And I work full time as a designer!
Too right... £800 is taking the piss.

I can't for a minute believe even a top-of-the-range CD deck is much more expensive to manufacture than a turntable.

[gumpy green]

as sales goes up production goes up hence price falls.....always the same with new technology.

[Internal Error Records]

as sales goes up production goes up hence price falls.....always the same with new technology.

*IF* sales go up. If early sales do not compensate for research & development costs, cost overruns can shut a product release down.

Through out history many fine pieces of technology died early deaths due to price being too high.

[gumpy green]

as sales goes up production goes up hence price falls.....always the same with new technology.

*IF* sales go up. If early sales do not compensate for research & development costs, cost overruns can shut a product release down.

Through out history many fine pieces of technology died early deaths due to price being too high.

yeh If......and i doubt it will,yet.

[dirty_bass]

Technics aren`t stupid, they`ve done virtually nothing to the 1200`s forever cos they knew they didn`t need to.
Now they`ve brought out a CD deck.
They know exactly what they are doing