Everyone Has Gone Digital?!

[Joseph Isaac]

So i'm speaking with a friend of mine at SOG Research (a major booking agent for a number of techno acts | www.sogresearch.com) and he was telling me that he wa speaking with Mike Huckaby (one of the artists on his roster) and was saying how bizarre it was in Miami that almost everyone was using CDs/Laptops. Huck stated quite literally that almost everyone was swapping hard drives and CDs and hardly anyone was handing out vinyl. He went on to state that almost everyone that dj'd in one form or another, used a laptop or CDs. The only people that used vinyl were huck and well, Jeff Mills.

Please some refute this! This is entirely depressing...Was anyone there that can deny this claim?

[Joseph Isaac]

For some reason the link doesn't work because of the end parentheses:

www.sogresearch.com

[eyes without a face]

does it matter? check the post from Acidtrash, its basically exactly the same subject matter!!!!

[eyes without a face]

i.e vinyl vs CD

sorry if that looked a bit arsy actually haha "Does it matter" but honestly, i dont care if people swapped cds', records or sexually transmitted diseases in miami!

[g]

why is it depressing?

[The Overfiend]

I respect and enjoy when joe raises his voice man so i appreciate whatever debate or comments he has regardless if anyone else priorly stated

[slobodan]

This is entirely depressing...Was anyone there that can deny this claim?

you are depressing.

[Joseph Isaac]

This is entirely depressing...Was anyone there that can deny this claim?

you are depressing.

Actually, I'm all for digital uses...I'm an Ableton junkie myself. My point was that hardly any vinyl is being handed and/or used...That is what to me is a bit depressing (viz. are industry insiders the only ones able to share new music at a "music conference")? I was not there so i really am looking for someone who maybe was there and can deny this is the case.

[g]

vinyl is an outmoded, outdated, inefficient, inconvenient, crap sounding, heavy, expensive, pain in the ass waste of time format. has been for 15 years.

but until recently it was the format directly connected to the only tools we had to use. and it was standardized. i.e. if you went somewhere to dj you didn't have to worry about whether or not your records were going to work. it was also most cost-effective and transportable solution AT THE TIME.

but even if you don't like the idea of laptop djing and still have an attachment to manual beatmatching, the days of the vinyl medium, on the whole, are over. thank god.

(and no, my thousands of records are not for sale ;))

[dirty_bass]

This is entirely depressing...Was anyone there that can deny this claim?

you are depressing.

bye bye

not one good thing has ever been written by you

[Internal Error Records]

careful listening to what people say.

people see what they want to see.

i didnt see a single laptop on a stage this year.

in fact. Marco Carola (who used a laptop last year and it crashed on him), was using vinyl this year with adam beyer.

[xfive]

So i'm speaking with a friend of mine at SOG Research (a major booking agent for a number of techno acts | www.sogresearch.com) and he was telling me that he wa speaking with Mike Huckaby (one of the artists on his roster) and was saying how bizarre it was in Miami that almost everyone was using CDs/Laptops. Huck stated quite literally that almost everyone was swapping hard drives and CDs and hardly anyone was handing out vinyl. He went on to state that almost everyone that dj'd in one form or another, used a laptop or CDs. The only people that used vinyl were huck and well, Jeff Mills.

Please some refute this! This is entirely depressing...Was anyone there that can deny this claim?

Are you sure he's speakin of the techno guys?
I have a feeling that IF this is true.... that it was more in the tech-house, minimal, and house department.... I could be wrong...

[Joseph Isaac]

careful listening to what people say.

people see what they want to see.

i didnt see a single laptop on a stage this year.

in fact. Marco Carola (who used a laptop last year and it crashed on him), was using vinyl this year with adam beyer.

Thanks, this is what i was looking for. Cheers...

[dtl]

The day you can cue/ bang out some tricks with a cd (Sold, not copied) track as quickly as a 12", is the day I will move on, which should be now.... But I think everything else is in place for this apart from tunes selection on those Mp3 sites, I want it raw and rough....

[dirty_bass]

it will happen, and label owners need to make the jump, because the whole scene is in an inbetween limbo that is doing no one any good

[Internal Error Records]

it will happen, and label owners need to make the jump, because the whole scene is in an inbetween limbo that is doing no one any good

as a label owner i can safely say i will never make the jump until there is money in it.


no money = no mp3 or digital.

until labels can make money from digital, djing with digitial is the same as pproudly saying "yeaha i stole your tracks"

unless of course you bought the vinyl first anyways then do whatever you want.

vinyl is the medium of the techno industry.

if a distro placed a purchase order for cd's, i would fill it.

but guess what, distros dont order cds.

[dirty_bass]

Not yet, but I`ve spoken to a fair few distributers and the heat is on with vinyl.
The industry as a whole needs a shake up otherwise it`ll just strangle itself

Don`t get me wrong, I love vinyl, I have stacks of the shit, but I`ve got one foot hovering over the future and I`m just waiting for more people to wake up to it and incite change.

[Komplex]

it will happen, and label owners need to make the jump, because the whole scene is in an inbetween limbo that is doing no one any good

as a label owner i can safely say i will never make the jump until there is money in it.


no money = no mp3 or digital.

until labels can make money from digital, djing with digitial is the same as pproudly saying "yeaha i stole your tracks"

unless of course you bought the vinyl first anyways then do whatever you want.

vinyl is the medium of the techno industry.

if a distro placed a purchase order for cd's, i would fill it.

but guess what, distros dont order cds.

Cool. Stick to vinyl if it does the job for you and the artists on your label.
It won't stop anyone from copying the music to mp3 tho, it never did.

[Internal Error Records]

Cool. Stick to vinyl if it does the job for you and the artists on your label.
It won't stop anyone from copying the music to mp3 tho, it never did.

the real crazy thing is - illegal copying of mp3's doesnt hurt the vinyl industry.

a vinyl junky cant spin an mp3.

[gumpy green]

Cool. Stick to vinyl if it does the job for you and the artists on your label.
It won't stop anyone from copying the music to mp3 tho, it never did.

the real crazy thing is - illegal copying of mp3's doesnt hurt the vinyl industry.

a vinyl junky cant spin an mp3.

so if vynil died and most folk copied ther stuff(which i think would happen) wed be fuked...producers would prob get even less kick back.

why buy if you can file share wav's with some other folk... i prob would get alot for free if i was mixin on cd which i know is wrong but at the end of the day id still do it.

[gunjack]

ppl don't want to pay for music anymore. that is the bottom line. so we have to go back to being diverse as artists. seperation of the wheat from the chaf and all that. i hate the way folks are so stuck into ONE STYLE and laugh at others or talk shit from envy because they can't make various types of music themselves. i mean, i would never make a trance record or a progressive record, but i enjoy making hip hop, dub music, west coast/detroit house, chicago hard house stuff, freejazz, cut n paste music, ambient, hard electro.... all these kids talk like techno is the ****ing answer and i am just too old and too stuck in my ways bang out 24 hours a day. a time and place for everything. those of us diverse enough, musically, will use the current changes in the ç"industry" to motivate us for creating something distinct, unique and based on what we feel rather than persuing the GENRE RACE toward a finish line that doesn't exist.

[Internal Error Records]

so if vynil died and most folk copied ther stuff(which i think would happen) wed be fuked...producers would prob get even less kick back.

.


if vinyl died there would be no stuff to copy. most good producers are doing this at least partly for the money. and vinyl is the only way to make money at this.

selling mp3's still has a long long long way to go.

[dirty_bass]

ppl don't want to pay for music anymore. that is the bottom line. so we have to go back to being diverse as artists. seperation of the wheat from the chaf and all that. i hate the way folks are so stuck into ONE STYLE and laugh at others or talk shit from envy because they can't make various types of music themselves. i mean, i would never make a trance record or a progressive record, but i enjoy making hip hop, dub music, west coast/detroit house, chicago hard house stuff, freejazz, cut n paste music, ambient, hard electro.... all these kids talk like techno is the **** answer and i am just too old and too stuck in my ways bang out 24 hours a day. a time and place for everything. those of us diverse enough, musically, will use the current changes in the ç"industry" to motivate us for creating something distinct, unique and based on what we feel rather than persuing the GENRE RACE toward a finish line that doesn't exist.

Wow, you pulled those words right out of my brain man :shock:
Someone else sees the way.

[Joseph Isaac]

I've actually considered doing my minimal label all online and CD based...The CDs would be set up so you could listen to them as regular, but would also contain data tracks for the digitial mixer/remixer.

With people like Kompakt going and creating an all "itunes" style site, the pressure to moving to digital is on. I think we must embrace it or begin to wallow in our own self-pity...

[curly]

I think what is important is the music, not what format it is delivered on, after all thats what we are all into. This is where records have the advantage. They have a built in quaility control system, They are usually mastered by a pro, and then a distrubutor has to like them(or at least think his custommers will), Then the record shop owner must also like them.
mp3, can be put on the web by anyone for anyone, from my own experiences alot of these sound ok, untill you play them againt a shop bought record, then the diffrences show.
But reciently this has changed, with record sales on the down, labels are trying to save money, less mastering, cheeper presses, no test presses ect, Now I a buying records that also don't stand up, good tunes, but lack of sound quality
There is need for a change,What is needed is a source of pro mp3's and cd's at cheep prices, There are far less overheads, so even at cheeper prices, the profit margin could still be the same.If this is cheep enough there would be no need for piracy

:doh: whoops just woke up.

human nature is to get something for nothing, so piracy is here to stay. but we cant let this kill techno like it currently is, Embrace the change and follow the market, rather than lagging behind, this will also make it accessable to those who have not got decks,

[detfella]

I think what is important is the music, not what format it is delivered on, after all thats what we are all into. This is where records have the advantage.

yeah definately, if a really good techno track was released it shouldn't matter what format. surely djs could use either and if its good enough people will buy it.

vinyl sales in rock have gone up (i know its slightly diff) but i think its still valid. if techno is about new technological we should be making AI techno by now, didn't kraftwerk start with robots in the 60's.

[sash]

why don't the people who run the party's only let the dj's that mix vinyl mix at their party's, that way dj's gotta buy vinyl and keep the labels in business? just a thought....

[Internal Error Records]

ok. everyone stop for a second and make sure you acknowldge that -

DISTROS DONT ORDER CD/DIGITAL!!!!!!!!


a label will ship on any format a distro is willing to pay for.


stop pretending a few hundred (or thousand) bedroom digifiles can change an entire industry just because a topic can be bitched about on a forum which is 90% opinion and nearly no facts (10% being filler).

[Internal Error Records]

ok. everyone stop for a second and make sure you acknowldge that -

DISTROS DONT ORDER CD/DIGITAL!!!!!!!!


a label will ship on any format a distro is willing to pay for.


stop pretending a few hundred (or thousand) bedroom digifiles can change an entire industry just because a topic can be bitched about on a forum which is 90% opinion and nearly no facts (10% being filler).

that came out much harsher than it should have. my apologese in advance.

[djshiva]

my personal opinion is whatever works for you, use it.

i personally like spinning records cuz i am a hands on kinda girl (with turntables...get yer minds outta the gutter... ;p ), but i like the fact that there are more options so that people can use what works best for them. plus, trading files and cds of yer own stuff is definitely nice if you haven't gotten it pressed yet. no waiting for white labels! (i know someone will crucify me for this, but whatever). i also like it cuz it makes things a bit more egalitarian. so the big guys get white labels and play new hot shit? screw em. get cds and files from all your unsung techno producer friends and blow em away with shit they ain't heard.

(i have to admit that i am gonna need a chiropractor when i am 50 for my poor vinyl luggin' back, so there are some other upsides to the new technology)

when someone invents a robotic record bitch that can fly for free, then we will have truly reached the pinnacle of this technology. ;)

p.s. sorry...mucho caffeinated...

[Heroes]

vinyl is an outmoded, outdated, inefficient, inconvenient, crap sounding, heavy, expensive, pain in the ass waste of time format. has been for 15 years.

but until recently it was the format directly connected to the only tools we had to use. and it was standardized. i.e. if you went somewhere to dj you didn't have to worry about whether or not your records were going to work. it was also most cost-effective and transportable solution AT THE TIME.

but even if you don't like the idea of laptop djing and still have an attachment to manual beatmatching, the days of the vinyl medium, on the whole, are over. thank god.

i disagree and agree, if that happens then theres gonna be a whole drop out of people who will work standard jobs because they cant survive off making records, quality will drop, and getting paid to support a scene will be lost. I think this is wishfull thinking by some who look at it as the only way to get the foot in a some what closed door, however i think it has its positives also, it will go back to how it used to be people will get booked on how they perform, rather than being booked because they made "or had made" for them good records

(and no, my thousands of records are not for sale ;))

no way is vinyl crap sounding, its all down to the mastering, but ive never heard cds get that transfered weight as you do when a vynle is cut, that needle gliding through the grooves just fattens it so much, i mean lets face it the cd/dj player isnt a new thing, i remember seeing one a good 12 years ago at a friends audio store. but sound wise i take records anyday. It wont be long before "thank god" we will be able to at least drop these mp3 crap dj units and swap for full blown wav or aiff. i mean lets face it mp3 has only surfaced due to a rubbish internet speed network, but with standard homes getting now between 1.5 and 4meg connections it wont be long before there gone for good, i think probably before vinyl if were lucky....

the thing i also like about listening to djs with the minimal setup of "vinyl a pair of decks and a good old alan and heath" is because the digital age has given rise to all these little tweakable poorly "made in china" effects units that dj's think it a god given rule to F*** with every 30 seconds

i disagree and agree, if that happens then theres gonna be a whole drop out of people who will work standard jobs because they cant survive off making records, quality will drop, and getting paid to support a scene will be lost. I think this is wishfull thinking by some who look at it as the only way to get the foot in a some what closed door, however i think it has its positives also, it will go back to how it used to be people will get booked on how they perform, rather than being booked because they made "or had made" for them good records....

[Komplex]

[quote=g]vinyl is an outmoded, outdated, inefficient, inconvenient, crap sounding, heavy, expensive, pain in the ass waste of time format. has been for 15 years.

but until recently it was the format directly connected to the only tools we had to use. and it was standardized. i.e. if you went somewhere to dj you didn't have to worry about whether or not your records were going to work. it was also most cost-effective and transportable solution AT THE TIME.

but even if you don't like the idea of laptop djing and still have an attachment to manual beatmatching, the days of the vinyl medium, on the whole, are over. thank god.

i disagree and agree, if that happens then theres gonna be a whole drop out of people who will work standard jobs because they cant survive off making records, quality will drop, and getting paid to support a scene will be lost. I think this is wishfull thinking by some who look at it as the only way to get the foot in a some what closed door, however i think it has its positives also, it will go back to how it used to be people will get booked on how they perform, rather than being booked because they made "or had made" for them good records

(and no, my thousands of records are not for sale ;))

no way is vinyl crap sounding, its all down to the mastering, but ive never heard cds get that transfered weight as you do when a vynle is cut, that needle gliding through the grooves just fattens it so much, i mean lets face it the cd/dj player isnt a new thing, i remember seeing one a good 12 years ago at a friends audio store. but sound wise i take records anyday. It wont be long before "thank god" we will be able to at least drop these mp3 crap dj units and swap for full blown wav or aiff. i mean lets face it mp3 has only surfaced due to a rubbish internet speed network, but with standard homes getting now between 1.5 and 4meg connections it wont be long before there gone for good, i think probably before vinyl if were lucky....

quote]

"fatness/warmth/coldness/meaningless buzzword" comes from the production, recording and mastering process more than anything.

Remember that vinyl was a cheap mass market consumer format, just like tapes, cds, mp3 etc.. They all have their flaws but out of all of them, cd (or wav audio) provides the best representation of the original recording (actually dvd's would be even better but thats not as accessible as cd yet). And if they sound sh1t, its because the original recording and the mastering done on it is sh1t. Whether vinyl sounds "better" than cd is just a personal oppinion tho. And when you take crap overworked club sound systems into account the whole argument about sound goes right down the toilet anyway so the format you mix with depends entirely on your personal prefference. Whether you mix purely off vinyl or with final scratch playing wav audio, it doesn't f*cking matter... its music.

Anyway, this sort of conversation is going nowhere cus vinyl is a very big issue and loved by many people. We all understand that and its totally cool. I've said it before, 1200's wont be disapearing anytime soon so you don't have to worry about a thing. Just don't bitch if the people of tomorrow don't partake in the whole retro vinyl movement when theres better ways to distribute and express ones music. It's the year 2005.

Choice is better than no choice.

[Komplex]

Well those quotes got f*cked up nicely :(

Can we get the [edit post] thing happening on this board?

[Heroes]

no bitchin here, just saying that vinyl adds a fatness or something that ive never got from digital, and because at the cutting stage you get professinal mastering again, theres always a certain forced quality control before it hits the street. Because we get paid for producing records through vinyl sales you can do that. Now the trouble starts when the wanna be mp3 fruityloop djs who has no quality control "cant have playing mp3" starts pumping out all there unmastered or poorly mastered fodder on the clubs. phew now thats stepping forward?. I can hardley see them paying the £200 "average" mastering price to improve there material when they wont get a penny back for it can you? i mean the place where i get my stuff done has speakers probably the same price as my studio, can you imagine the state of it? i do believe that the greed of some labels "mostly" the majors, the distributors of past and present and the shops has helped its decline, there is nothing to play with anymore in vinyl prices, ive never gotten back more than £2.00 per record so its just a case of getting the sales and a certain clientel that understands and supports this great scene, i mean look at it now How many virgin, sony, or warner backed techno releases do you see. I mean in the mid 90s warner were the main people behind harthouse, probaly because sven, hardfloor and the others were selling buckets of the vinyl they looked at another cash pot now they hardly do S***. And personally "thank" F*** for it, and whys that? iam guessing cause the moneys not in it after there raping. There probably too busy fighting over which ones gonna get the contract for the "big brother bonus cd clubs hits, with a bonus pull out nadia poster". too much sell out even from within, lets see what the next 2 years bring thats gonna be the interesting one i think

[g]

It wont be long before "thank god" we will be able to at least drop these mp3 crap dj units and swap for full blown wav or aiff.
...but you can do that right now, today.


...has given rise to all these little tweakable poorly "made in china" effects units that dj's think it a god given rule to F*** with every 30 seconds
lol, very true.


...however i think it has its positives also, it will go back to how it used to be people will get booked on how they perform, rather than being booked because they made "or had made" for them good records....
exactly. this needs to happen.

i freely admit that i am of two minds about the whole thing. i love vinyl, i'm not getting rid of mine, and i still buy plenty. but on the whole unfortunately it aint gonna last. and while i have a romantic attachment to vinyl, i truly love the ever-more-increasing availability to legal digital formats. for me, it means i am buying and listening to a lot more music, in many more genres, than ever before.

[DELTA9MDA]

back to the beginning of this topic: i was at ultra music fest and yes there were a couple of lap tops(josh wink) and yes, for every turntable there was a cd player.
so yes im refuting what you said.
watched carl cox for and hour.
he played both recs and cds. mostly recs.

watched tiesto, oakey and a few others so i could get an idea why people love them (and thier shit, dog help me) and for the most part i saw records. no lap tops.

at last years wmc, i saw frankie bones and some others, and everyone was playing records.

[tocsin]

it will happen, and label owners need to make the jump, because the whole scene is in an inbetween limbo that is doing no one any good

as a label owner i can safely say i will never make the jump until there is money in it.


no money = no mp3 or digital.

until labels can make money from digital, djing with digitial is the same as pproudly saying "yeaha i stole your tracks"

unless of course you bought the vinyl first anyways then do whatever you want.

vinyl is the medium of the techno industry.

if a distro placed a purchase order for cd's, i would fill it.

but guess what, distros dont order cds.

But, common listeners and an increasing number of DJs do order mp3s directly through webpages without ever bothering with the distributor. It's really just a matter of time. The question is whether you want to be experienced and cozy when things shift or whether you want to play catch up.

[tocsin]

ok. everyone stop for a second and make sure you acknowldge that -

DISTROS DONT ORDER CD/DIGITAL!!!!!!!!


a label will ship on any format a distro is willing to pay for.


stop pretending a few hundred (or thousand) bedroom digifiles can change an entire industry just because a topic can be bitched about on a forum which is 90% opinion and nearly no facts (10% being filler).

Let's also stop pretending that most of the labels we like are moving 10,000+ pressings. In an "industry" where a run is sometimes as limited as 500-700 pressings, a few hundred bedroom "digifiles" are a significant market factor that should be taken into consideration. I used to buy my records directly from a distributor due to a friend. He stopped working there, the music I liked stop coming in and I pretty much stopped buying records entirely. This was years ago. All the new music I hear is acquired online. If I knew where to actually buy mp3s of quality, rather than getting them in a 64-128kbit mix hosted on the web, I'd start buying tracks again. But, from what I've seen, none of the music/labels that I particularly like has taken this step yet. It's either released via CD/vinyl through a label or the artist hosts it themself and lets people download it for free. I also really don't know what you mean by saying distributors don't order CD/digital. As I mentioned in another thread, the most
money I've seen roylaty wise is from a CD release. More people bought the CD than the vinyl in numbers. I've also seen the tracks all over the place on Soulseek. I'm not going to say that everyone would buy them. But, I don't doubt for a second that there aren't enough people using filesharing to get such tracks who are like myself and might shell out a buck or two here and there for one or two high quality mp3s.

[Komplex]

ok. everyone stop for a second and make sure you acknowldge that -

DISTROS DONT ORDER CD/DIGITAL!!!!!!!!


a label will ship on any format a distro is willing to pay for.


stop pretending a few hundred (or thousand) bedroom digifiles can change an entire industry just because a topic can be bitched about on a forum which is 90% opinion and nearly no facts (10% being filler).

Let's also stop pretending that most of the labels we like are moving 10,000+ pressings. In an "industry" where a run is sometimes as limited as 500-700 pressings, a few hundred bedroom "digifiles" are a significant market factor that should be taken into consideration. I used to buy my records directly from a distributor due to a friend. He stopped working there, the music I liked stop coming in and I pretty much stopped buying records entirely. This was years ago. All the new music I hear is acquired online. If I knew where to actually buy mp3s of quality, rather than getting them in a 64-128kbit mix hosted on the web, I'd start buying tracks again. But, from what I've seen, none of the music/labels that I particularly like has taken this step yet. It's either released via CD/vinyl through a label or the artist hosts it themself and lets people download it for free. I also really don't know what you mean by saying distributors don't order CD/digital. As I mentioned in another thread, the most
money I've seen roylaty wise is from a CD release. More people bought the CD than the vinyl in numbers. I've also seen the tracks all over the place on Soulseek. I'm not going to say that everyone would buy them. But, I don't doubt for a second that there aren't enough people using filesharing to get such tracks who are like myself and might shell out a buck or two here and there for one or two high quality mp3s.

[Komplex]

I've gone on a personal crusade to buy music only cd's now (or mp3 if I can't get it on cd).

I've wanted heaps of vinyl only releases to be available on cd just because I like the music and actually want to listen to it too :(

[Internal Error Records]

ok. everyone stop for a second and make sure you acknowldge that -

DISTROS DONT ORDER CD/DIGITAL!!!!!!!!


a label will ship on any format a distro is willing to pay for.


stop pretending a few hundred (or thousand) bedroom digifiles can change an entire industry just because a topic can be bitched about on a forum which is 90% opinion and nearly no facts (10% being filler).

Let's also stop pretending that most of the labels we like are moving 10,000+ pressings. In an "industry" where a run is sometimes as limited as 500-700 pressings, a few hundred bedroom "digifiles" are a significant market factor that should be taken into consideration. .

listen closer!!!!!

LABELS WILL SHIP OUT ANY MEDIUM PAID FOR!!!!
AND OUR LARGEST CUSTOMER DONT ORDER DIGITAL.

come on dude, you are a lawyer. you understand that you cant sell something that isnt getting paid for.

VINYL GETS PAID FOR.


wow, i really abused those caps. sorry for screaming. lol

[dirty_bass]

we need to incite change before vinyl doesn`t sell any more.

[Internal Error Records]

we need to incite change before vinyl doesn`t sell any more.


i think i see the breakdown in the communication here.

unless i am wrong... you are saying 'vinyl is doomed anyways, so all you vinyl lovers give it up and move into the new medium'

i dont understand this - i mean, explain it to me... why do digiheads care what vinyl lovers use?

digiheads seem to have a nazi-esque obcession with stamping out vinyl.

i love vinyl. i will never stop using it. and i will produce it as long as it sells.

[dirty_bass]

there`s no mis communication on my part.
I love binyl too.
But things have to change, do you honestly think it will go on forever.
At some point sales will drop enough where other mediums have to be considered, and the old and the new will run parallel until vinyl slowly wanes.

It won`t (hopefully) happen too quickly, but it will happen.

I don`t want to be like the people who said "oh the internet, that`ll never work, just a gimmick"

[Internal Error Records]

there`s no mis communication on my part.
I love binyl too.
But things have to change, do you honestly think it will go on forever.



lol. dood.
vinyl should have died 30 years ago. it didn't. in fact techno exploded onto vinyl at the same time cd's took over the music world. that should tell you something.

the digi-nazi's are turning this forum into a playground of bullies picking fights just to hear themselves proclaim the inevitable.

and for what? its just being rude.

leave the vinyl lovers in peace.

[Komplex]

leave the vinyl lovers in peace.

and vice versa...

[tocsin]

listen closer!!!!!
LABELS WILL SHIP OUT ANY MEDIUM PAID FOR!!!!
AND OUR LARGEST CUSTOMER DONT ORDER DIGITAL.
come on dude, you are a lawyer. you understand that you cant sell something that isnt getting paid for.
VINYL GETS PAID FOR.
wow, i really abused those caps. sorry for screaming. lol

Then maybe you should find a different distributor. I can only speak from my own experience. As an artist, the most sales occurred for tracks that I worked on which came out on CD. As far as the bedroom digifile is concerned, you don't need a distributor for them. That's the beauty of it. You can cut that middleman right out. That middleman is what annoys so many of the bedroom digifiles anyways. Jump on Soulseek and see if any of your releases are floating around in full. If they are, I don't see what you have to lose through selling MP3 off of a webpage.

[schlongfingers]

Yeah of course distributors don't order digital files, that would be bizarre - why would shops stock MP3's?

[Heroes]

15 months ago the main problem was getting the raw vinyl to press with as it was so in demand, so i dont think its doing so bad as a media format, you have to also take into consideration that we have like another 10 new EU state members from such counties as the Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Malta, Poland, Slovakia and Slovenia. Ive played almost all these countries and i consider them really important, they love there vinyl even when shipping and import costs made the records so expensive, if we can get proper distribution into these areas then its looking good again i think. I mean the future is digital iam sure to a degree, or are we just caught up in a disposable revolution that wants "new new new" i for one am fed up of the speed of stuff, cd, md, dvd, dual dvd, hd umd, what next, Theres a nice exclusivity with vinyl that you can control and as a label owner i find it a bigger turn on than Jordan "not Michael Jordan" turning up on my doorstep with a truck full or jelly singing happy birhday to you.... To make some nice limited releases is always a nice concept and all that will be gone, however it may be the dawning of new concepts, personally i cant see it. the positives i guess are no production costs for the label and a lot more producer freedom, but i think the biggest challenge is piracy, sony tried with cds when the burners 1st hit the market, but distributors advised against it because they were getting so many returns because of problems with cd players not recognising the discs.

cant wait for china to turn into techno heads, 1 billion souls to convert to the wax....

[audioinjection]

15 months ago the main problem was getting the raw vinyl to press with as it was so in demand, so i dont think its doing so bad as a media format, you have to also take into consideration that we have like another 10 new EU state members from such counties as the Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Malta, Poland, Slovakia and Slovenia. Ive played almost all these countries and i consider them really important, they love there vinyl even when shipping and import costs made the records so expensive, if we can get proper distribution into these areas then its looking good again i think. I mean the future is digital iam sure to a degree, or are we just caught up in a disposable revolution that wants "new new new" i for one am fed up of the speed of stuff, cd, md, dvd, dual dvd, hd umd, what next, Theres a nice exclusivity with vinyl that you can control and as a label owner i find it a bigger turn on than Jordan "not Michael Jordan" turning up on my doorstep with a truck full or jelly singing happy birhday to you.... To make some nice limited releases is always a nice concept and all that will be gone, however it may be the dawning of new concepts, personally i cant see it. the positives i guess are no production costs for the label and a lot more producer freedom, but i think the biggest challenge is piracy, sony tried with cds when the burners 1st hit the market, but distributors advised against it because they were getting so many returns because of problems with cd players not recognising the discs.

cant wait for china to turn into techno heads, 1 billion souls to convert to the wax....

hell yeah dude

[Internal Error Records]

you also have to look at what that $1,500 for a pressing buys you.

that 1,500 not only buys you 500 pressings, but it buys you a shit load of promotion and marketing. the vinyl industry is self advertising via all the steps of the process.


$1,500 for marketing will never very bring 500 sales to your digital medium.

before you yes yes it will. prove it. QUOTE your source.

[Heroes]

And how pissed would ya be if all ya bought media got deleted by mistake, or ya suffered a crash, But before we get "the well back it up" reply, its always easier said than done, i for one just never get around to backing stuff up, bad but true, i guess iam not the only one. Also i like to thought of the physical media so i can apreciate the effort and see what ive purchased, more than "jeffmills_thebells.wav". Also rememeber theres t least some sort of resell value to the physical media. i mean this unprotected digital format is a great ground for sub illegal distribution. i for one am not really into it, it would work if everyone respected it, i for one would as i believe thats truly the only way forward, i run very very very few cracks maybe like 1 to 2% and they are only the ones i cant justify the price off, if i find something i use it to test it then if i think its worth the price tag and they look like they are pushing boundries in there technology i buy to support it. this is the only way digital media of anytype will truly work. they need to profit like anything to give them the means to carry on..

[dan the acid man]

no, your not the only one that doesnt always back stuff up :oops:

[crime]

cant wait for china to turn into techno heads, 1 billion souls to convert to the wax....
what I'm weathering the storm for...

[Sunil]

Also i like to thought of the physical media so i can apreciate the effort and see what ive purchased, more than "jeffmills_thebells.wav"..

Exactly.

Vinyl's going no-where, it's just slowing down a bit now. As long as vinyl is being produced in some shape or form then it's cool, it's not like Rolling Stones re-issue LPs won't be selling in 10 years time, so why wouldn't dance music vinyl not be selling either?

[Internal Error Records]

also, like i was hitting on before.

its impossible to afforably market digital media. (mp3's)

i would rather spent $1800 to release an artists record, and know that 700 copies have been bought by fans than spend $0 on a project and hope 20 people download it.

the more intelligent thought that goes into this the more it proves digital has the efficient appeal of technology but very little impact on an industry.

another minus to digital is the upkeep and maintence of a website. with vinyl you just drop it on the world and it circulates in a week or two. not the slow dribble of downloads over months.

[dirty_bass]

that`s why digital needs a physical medium, and a package.
Hence CD
Downloads aren`t the way.
But vinyl isn`t the only way either.

[Internal Error Records]

that`s why digital needs a physical medium, and a package.
Hence CD
Downloads aren`t the way.
But vinyl isn`t the only way either.

uggg.. i can't believe im agreeing with you :-)

but the numbers i am eyeballing support cd's.

(other than the current industry thinking and consumer demand)

[tocsin]

Is there some reason why you need to limit releases to one medium? This is what I find inherently bullshit about the "prove it" comments. Sell records, sell CDs and sell MP3s. If you can find mp3s of your releases floating around, there is your proff that there is a demand for mp3s of your label's music. You can give it a whirl or, like so many others, you can play catch up when other labels have established such a practice and become a go to point for other people looking to do the same.

[Sunil]

that`s why digital needs a physical medium, and a package.
Hence CD
Downloads aren`t the way.
But vinyl isn`t the only way either.

Indeed, but CDs are already here, how can they be re-packaged in such as way to make them sellable again? Offer albums at single prices? Include mpegs on the discs, or free posters/ key rings?? :) A few fancy CD decks on the market won't create a massive demand for CDs to be sold by labels. Most people who now use exclusively CDs will be as happy to download from the web, esp. if .wavs for download come into operation.

Maybe there is room for everything, there's no reason why not, but the laws really have to get tough on file sharing/illegal downloading.

[dirty_bass]

Well that`s the point.
We sit in limbo right now
Vinyl is dying, but everyone still clings to it.
Piracy is rife, everybody has a god damn ipod these days etc
CD mixers with full platters are still establishing themselves in the market.
No one knows what to do.
Record distribtuion is a sham affair, with tussles over terrortory and some countries just not covered at all.
Stagnation both with the business, and to be honest, with the music for the most part, isn`t helping.

[slavestudios]

i dont care what format it is..

if its a rockin 12, bang on..
if its a rockin cd, bang on..


one thing i CANNOT have is ppl stealin material & distributing it via Sloulseek etc..

and ppl who turn up with Reason on a laptop, press play on a sequenced track then claim 'live set'

look, from what ive read, vinyl has one vital component which comes from a by product of the oil business.. due to the US of A and its lil tantrum, this by product will no onger be finacially viable come 2010..



do, according to this... we're buggered..

[dirty_bass]

well, vinyl can be recycled.
But recycled vinyl tends to be more brittle, and you get impurities that cause bubbles and stuff.

[slavestudios]

ive got a few Trax 10s & 12s.. i know all about it lol


sure all thpse pop remix 12s in charity shops can be melted down again i guess lol

[slavestudios]

but then again, who knows what the future & technology brings..

we didnt see LIVE comin, so who knows whats around the corner :lol:

[Ritzi Lee]

I think i'm gonna sign with these guys:
www.dance-tunes.com...
It's like a digital recordstore / mp3 downloading...

But i'm also still going to do vinyl pressings.

Anyway, with this output I can make more exposure
to do digital mp3 releases, besides vinyl releases.
No overhead times, and cheaper!

[OriginalTechnobastard]

I agree with whats been said about the fatness feel of vinyl. You can`t compare the sound from cd that to a vinyl :nono: ! Lets be real here. We all heard vinyls and cds. Cds just sound flat compare to vinyls. It might look more expensive and have its advantages, but vinyls(more classy look :cool: ) in terms of sound vibrations to your ear, just sound better. I really don`t understand why people would try to argue otherwise :eh:! Hmmmmmmm :evil:

[Ritzi Lee]

I agree with whats been said about the fatness feel of vinyl. You can`t compare the sound from cd that to a vinyl :nono: ! Lets be real here. We all heard vinyls and cds. Cds just sound flat compare to vinyls. It might look more expensive and have its advantages, but vinyls(more classy look :cool: ) in terms of sound vibrations to your ear, just sound better. I really don`t understand why people would try to argue otherwise :eh:! Hmmmmmmm :evil:

That really depends on the quality of vinyl m8!
I've also heared a lot of bad pressings.
And believe me, there are more bad pressings then good ones....

[Heroes]

the thing is the only reason mp3 came about was not due to its purity in sound thats for sure, it came about becuase of the size of storage around at the time and the internet speeds. it was popular and surfaced when 40 gig hard drives were considered the nuts and bt isdn 128 was the fastests residential conection. now computers rarely ship with less than 120gig, ipods can be bought in 60gig and the average residential connection is between 1mbit - 4mbit, unless you live in sweden of course, and if thats the case you can benefit from residential connections ranging anywhere between 8mbit - 28mbit. I give mp3's 5 more years max. the thing i love about the vinyl apart from its sound is the availabilty to keep piracy down to the minimum thus ensuring i get paid in full for my work....if thats a crime not to want the digital age then so be it. But all you people who dont depend on selling records to put food on the table have to think for a second, how would you feel at the end of a long hard week the boss turned round and said i know ya done sixty hours but heres the money for 15 of those? what iam trying to say is id like to get paid for what i do, the current state of technology + attitude + internet wont allow that, the piracy is too ripe to allow it, thats where vinyl and the record deck works for me because it keeps piracy to its utmost lowest, is it selfish to have this attitude? no i dont think so...

[The Overfiend]

I agree with whats been said about the fatness feel of vinyl. You can`t compare the sound from cd that to a vinyl :nono: ! Lets be real here. We all heard vinyls and cds. Cds just sound flat compare to vinyls. It might look more expensive and have its advantages, but vinyls(more classy look :cool: ) in terms of sound vibrations to your ear, just sound better. I really don`t understand why people would try to argue otherwise :eh:! Hmmmmmmm :evil:

That really depends on the quality of vinyl m8!
I've also heared a lot of bad pressings.
And believe me, there are more bad pressings then good ones....
return on investment put some dollar into it and this wont or shouldnt happen

[dirty_bass]

I agree with whats been said about the fatness feel of vinyl. You can`t compare the sound from cd that to a vinyl :nono: ! Lets be real here. We all heard vinyls and cds. Cds just sound flat compare to vinyls. It might look more expensive and have its advantages, but vinyls(more classy look :cool: ) in terms of sound vibrations to your ear, just sound better. I really don`t understand why people would try to argue otherwise :eh:! Hmmmmmmm :evil:

Dude, that`s just opinion.
I run a very good soundsystem, along with my mate who runs an even phatter and better rig, who is part of our collective
And play for play, the same tune, on CD (original master) and vinyl
CD sounds better.
Clearer
Deeper
Crisper.
Frequency response on CD is just better. Fact,
Yeah you get that added bit of warmth on vinyl, but if a track has been mastered properly on CD, then that`s not an issue.

Most techno is mastered on a digital medium
Then transferred to vinyl
Then played through digital signal processing (that most soundsystems use these days)

Sound quality isn`t really an issue at all any more

[crime]

happy with vinyl myself personally, I think it sounds fatter myself, and especially notice it when I've cut records from cd to vinyl, great feeling when you hear the test cut for the first time, but each to their own eh?

[dirty_bass]

Yeah, there is something more tangible about having a big black pizza with your grooves on, admittedly.

[Internal Error Records]

Is there some reason why you need to limit releases to one medium? This is what I find inherently bullshit about the "prove it" comments. Sell records, sell CDs and sell MP3s. If you can find mp3s of your releases floating around, there is your proff that there is a demand for mp3s of your label's music. You can give it a whirl or, like so many others, you can play catch up when other labels have established such a practice and become a go to point for other people looking to do the same.

HI Low-Key,
Good to meet you last night at the DDR show. (he rocks)

Like you just said, releasing on multiple medium is probably the best idea if a label can afford it. A problem inherint with dance labels is severe poverty. Like a label has to choose between one medium or another. But I do agree with you. I would happily spend $990 on 1000 retail ready cd's if a distro placed an order for "ier-003 - 500 12", 900 cd" we'll see if that ever happens. . .

[MARKEG]

Let's get this straight. CD's put a top end on your tracks that vinyl just cant do. But vinyl, puts a bottom end on your tracks that CD's cant do.

So what's best?? Who cares as long and the music goes forward. Aphex Twin ala 1992 is some of the best music I ever heard but the top end is shite compared to these days.

And here comes in Hereos point. If you're a producer, you need to put food on the table if you're involved in this shit 24/7. So ppl like Hereos and anyone who's soley a techno producer need an income off this. We're not being gready, we just need to put food on the table. Techno at the mo doesnt allow for this without SERIOUS SERIOUS hard work. MP3 is killin artists like Hereos, and me, and anyone involved in techno. Be honest.

So then how does something innovative come out of something that doesnt allow ppl to survive or buy the equipment that the damn commercial software or hardware industry has thrown upon us musicians???

F it, take it to grass roots level, we all need to stop being TWATS and be able to make a little bit of cash from our records. Have we not got the intelilligennce to do this or are MP3's gonna make us bow down and submit. F That.

[dirty_bass]

Let's get this straight. CD's put a top end on your tracks that vinyl just cant do. But vinyl, puts a bottom end on your tracks that CD's cant do. ?

Erm if you check the frequency response, CD actually has better bass too.
As you have to roll off the bass at the cutting stage for vinyl (and you can`t have a wide stereo bass field etc) due to the needle not beeing able to handle the bass vibrations.

It`s kinda being pedantic really.
The point is, I think we need to get on top of the new mediums, before they get on top of us.
And yes piracy is a huge problem, but really, what the hell can we do about it?
It`s basically allways gonna be there, and is an issue of morality. So until people are educated about the harm they are doing with piracy, we are all up the pooper.

[MARKEG]

ok, i'm up for anyone telling me i'm wrong but i truly believe that the bass end of cd's sounds shitter than vinyl. anyway, f that, let's get back to the real shit. what are we gonna do about this??

[Internal Error Records]

ok, i'm up for anyone telling me i'm wrong but i truly believe that the bass end of cd's sounds shitter than vinyl. anyway, f that, let's get back to the real shit. what are we gonna do about this??

its no secret that im personally obsessed with vinyl. but i'll concede that i would press cd's as well as vinyl if a distro would order them. in return i would like to hear the mp3 fanatics concede that mp3's are not a profitably viable medium.

[Komplex]

f that, let's get back to the real shit. what are we gonna do about this??

Set up an online techno distribution centre that deals with all formats. Vinyl, CD, and if people want mp3 (which I don't really like either).

A network that makes it easier for people to access artists and labels worldwide and get music in the formats which they want (or which the lables have available)...

Even if its just a searchable database thing with links, info, contacts, outlet locations or urls to online shops. It would be a step in the right direction.

I'm sick of the vinyl vs/digital recordings argument. Its as stupid as analogue vs digital studio/synths arguments.

[crime]

Frequency response on CD is just better. Fact

well I just found this at http://www.badenhausen.com/VSR_History.htm


Nowadays, high performance calculation techniques and electronic components allow the design of high accuracy phono pre-amplifiers that are guaranteeing a frequency response of 10 to 25,000 Hz at a linearity of ±0.1 db, and a THD factor of less than 0.001%. The S/N ratio, of special importance for digital audio, can be easily hold at nearly 100 db by High-Tec semiconductors.

If I'm not mistaken CD audio specification goes no lower than 20hz, in which case the frequency response on vinyl actually goes lower (I could be wrong although I'm pretty sure)
Anyhow, I stumbled across another page of interest, which contains some pretty simelar arguments as what is going on here, this time between Audiophile types, check it: http://alcor.concordia.ca/~kaustin/cecconference/current/1364.html

At the end of it all though, I don't think everyone is going to stop buying records just because a few types in miami have "Gone digital" so to speak..

[crime]

Erm if you check the frequency response, CD actually has better bass too.
As you have to roll off the bass at the cutting stage for vinyl (and you can`t have a wide stereo bass field etc) due to the needle not beeing able to handle the bass vibrations.

I would have thought the reason for rolling off the bass is because the frequency response of vinyl is lower... sorry, don't want to get pedantic on you or anything, but I've just been looking at the specs of vinyl, couldn't find any cd specs (why is it when you search for something loads of stuff you don't want comes through).. anyway, correct me if I'm wrong, pull out the specs if you can find it, but I'm sure there is a reason why Laurie and Guy were mastering to 2" tape instead of digital format before cutting a while back....

[dirty_bass]

Well, MP3 IS a success for the mainstream now.
Ipod is a perfect example of this.
Not that I like mp3 as a format.
All you get is data, no art, no info, it makes it feel cheap, and I think devalues the music in some way.
I think we may have to accept mp3 as an alternative format, but really, given the choice, it would be CD and Vinyl for me. At least there is a physical product for the money. And with the product comes the image that completes the ideal of the product.
It`s something I think we are all going to face.
I really hate the mp3 generation. As for the most part the mp3`s in illegal distribution are of such a low quality.

[crime]

I like mp3 as a means to check stuff out, find old stuff (not just techno or electronic stuff) that I can't find in shops and that kind of thing, but if I like something I have to go and get it, I think the drop in sales has more to do with the fact that we're over 15 years on from acid house and things need a big shake up.. I remember the excitement of buying records back in 94/95, because you really didn't know what was going to come next.. ten years on and you have a lot more artists, labels and releases, and a lot of ground has already been covered i.e. the blank canvas that there once was has been filled..

[dirty_bass]

Frequency response on CD is just better. Fact

well I just found this at http://www.badenhausen.com/VSR_History.htm


Nowadays, high performance calculation techniques and electronic components allow the design of high accuracy phono pre-amplifiers that are guaranteeing a frequency response of 10 to 25,000 Hz at a linearity of ±0.1 db, and a THD factor of less than 0.001%. The S/N ratio, of special importance for digital audio, can be easily hold at nearly 100 db by High-Tec semiconductors.

If I'm not mistaken CD audio specification goes no lower than 20hz, in which case the frequency response on vinyl actually goes lower (I could be wrong although I'm pretty sure)
Anyhow, I stumbled across another page of interest, which contains some pretty simelar arguments as what is going on here, this time between Audiophile types, check it: http://alcor.concordia.ca/~kaustin/cecconference/current/1364.html

At the end of it all though, I don't think everyone is going to stop buying records just because a few types in miami have "Gone digital" so to speak..

These stats are based on a perect situation.
Vinyl will never meet it`s quted optimum stats.
Especially not in a club
A number of factors contribute to this, such as needle quality, alignment, bibration, vinyl imperfections etc
Vinyl should have a large dynamic range in theory with headroom of about 98db
In reality your average pressing has about 60, due to stereo width and above factors combined.

Especially the fact that most clubs have knacked decks, with bad vibration insulation, crap styluses, and average amplification processing and amp quality (all usually stuck through a hideous dynamic killing limiter), not to mention a sound engineer who has set up the rig for generic music use, it really is (the CD vs Vinyl) a totally meaningless argument.

It`s all academic really as the difference is psychological and not really audible at the end of the day.

As a rig engineer I will say that on most decent soundsystems these days, the signal will go digital at some point, so the analogue "warmth" of the vinyl still gets digitised. Sometimes at 16bit, but hopefully more often
at 24 bit these days.

I do have to say, if you play digital format, on a mixer with digital in and out, into digital processing, then into speakers.
It sounds sooo damn good you would cream your pants.
It`s like a mega volume hi fi.

[crime]

f that, let's get back to the real shit. what are we gonna do about this??

Set up an online techno distribution centre that deals with all formats. Vinyl, CD, and if people want mp3 (which I don't really like either).

as anyone checked out the Just music site BTW? I think they're selling MP3s of all current releases they're distributing, which is definitely a step forward.... Also Bleep.com cover a lot of the warp stuff, and a few other labels so it is happening....

[Komplex]

f that, let's get back to the real shit. what are we gonna do about this??

Set up an online techno distribution centre that deals with all formats. Vinyl, CD, and if people want mp3 (which I don't really like either).

as anyone checked out the Just music site BTW? I think they're selling MP3s of all current releases they're distributing, which is definitely a step forward.... Also Bleep.com cover a lot of the warp stuff, and a few other labels so it is happening....

For sure. Many people are doing it. Its just a pain in the arse trying to track it all down and find what you're looking for. A big database website, something like Discogs would be ideal to use as a tracker for finding out where and on what format labels sell their music.

And just a side note, I think it would be beneficial if more people in the techno community looked outside the square and noticed what people in other scenes are doing and took note of their sucesses and failures in this whole vinyl/cd/mp3 business.

[dirty_bass]

The psy scene almost survives entirely in the digital domain.
I think we can have all sides and facets.
I`ve just never met more aversion to new formats in any other scene other than techno.

[crime]

I`ve just never met more aversion to new formats in any other scene other than techno.

Is there really a true aversion to new formats in techno? or is it just people gobbing off about it on forums?

[dirty_bass]

Well it`s a subject I talk a lot about, and most people I encounter get kind of glazed expressions as soon as you mention anything other than vinyl.
Except when I deal with people in other scenes, who are on it already, and look at me like I`m a retard.

[crime]

I mean, Tarrida was playing in Tresor on saturday, and he had, not final scratch, but another very simelar device which basically was the same thing, I forget the name of it... Maybe it's more of a UK thing, in germany right now it seems everyone is doing live acts more.. in fact it's getting to the stage where you get booked to play live that it's hard to find space with the 5 other live acts that are there.. I'm actually getting on a retro tip and getting right back into playing records, mainly to find inspiration and provide support to music that isn't being played so much, and to generally pay my respects...
I mean it's ridiculous, 7 live acts including subhead and myself in dresden next weekend, god know's how we're going to find the space to set up, thank god the Treibwerk has pretty big stage area...

[dirty_bass]

Nah, it`ll just be 7 laptops
hehe

[crime]

thursday, I should have said... been so confusing having massive parties here in berlin everynight as the tresor is closing... Steve Bicknall, Jay Denham, Dave Tarrida and subhead in the tresor, josh wink in the globus, on a thursday.. nuts...

[crime]

Nah, it`ll just be 7 laptops
hehe

I wish! it's more groovebox action here...

[Ritzi Lee]

Vinyl has a narrower freq. range then CD.
There's a nice explenation on this subject on the NSC enterprise website.

[Ritzi Lee]

2 Mark EG:
You were talking about surround sound in the producer forum.
Well I know for 100% that this is not possible on vinyl!

[OriginalTechnobastard]

I agree with whats been said about the fatness feel of vinyl. You can`t compare the sound from cd that to a vinyl :nono: ! Lets be real here. We all heard vinyls and cds. Cds just sound flat compare to vinyls. It might look more expensive and have its advantages, but vinyls(more classy look :cool: ) in terms of sound vibrations to your ear, just sound better. I really don`t understand why people would try to argue otherwise :eh:! Hmmmmmmm :evil:

Dude, that`s just opinion.
I run a very good soundsystem, along with my mate who runs an even phatter and better rig, who is part of our collective
And play for play, the same tune, on CD (original master) and vinyl
CD sounds better.
Clearer
Deeper
Crisper.
Frequency response on CD is just better. Fact,
Yeah you get that added bit of warmth on vinyl, but if a track has been mastered properly on CD, then that`s not an issue.

Most techno is mastered on a digital medium
Then transferred to vinyl
Then played through digital signal processing (that most soundsystems use these days)

Sound quality isn`t really an issue at all any more
Nope. Cds are clearer but it doesn't have the feeling of that you being there feel. Thats just the way it is.

[SYMPTOM RECORDS]

Is there some reason why you need to limit releases to one medium? This is what I find inherently bullshit about the "prove it" comments. Sell records, sell CDs and sell MP3s. If you can find mp3s of your releases floating around, there is your proff that there is a demand for mp3s of your label's music.

That's exactly how I feel. Have to admit, when the first DJCD-players hit the parties years and years ago, I was spitting on DJs who were spinning CDs when I was all vinyl myself ;) luckily I got my head sorted - the point is the music itself, not the medium although I love vinyl, but it's not the reason why I'm into this stuff - the music is. Nowadays illegal MP3 file sharing proves that there's a real need for digital music files, and this discussion wouldn't be happening if CDs and digital music files were something we could completely overlook.

We are running a small digital distribution company foryourears.com (labels like Asymmetric, Jaxx stuff etc) so I think I can share some of our thoughts here. One of the main reasons for putting this together is something that's already said in this thread: people are waiting for new markets for vinyl with techno spreading into new countries etc, but what we are thinking is completely new markets for techno with people who don't own turntables, don't go out to parties/clubs for whatever reasons, but still like the music. Vinyl is a pretty restricted format in case you don't have a turntable, or you happen to live in a country where the distros don't deliver. CD is more widespread, but as said, most tech labels don't do CDs.

But also as Internal Error Recs already wrote, the vinyl thing is pretty self-promoting. That's why we don't believe (or even want) this thing to turn completely into only digital music files without a physical package in the future. The point is that all the mediums should support each other so this thing can move forward. If you already press vinyls or do CDs with your label, it doesn't cost you anything to add digital music files into your catalogue and see if you can sell some more - probably to people who aren't buying vinyls or CDs. Does that hurt anyone?


-markku/symptom

[TechMouse]

I mean, Tarrida was playing in Tresor on saturday, and he had, not final scratch, but another very simelar device which basically was the same thing, I forget the name of it...
Serato Scratch probably. I keep reading about it - esp. in more Hip Hop orientied forums, where people rate it because it tracks better than FS - hence better for turntablism. It's more solid as well, by all accounts.

On the point of mp3's - does anyone actually buy them / download them to play out? I have done this in one or two very rare occasions where it would be completely impossible to get hold of a better quality version. i.e. you can't get the vinyl, or a CD. And I felt bad, but I think I got away with it. I'd normally completely trust CDs though...

re: CDs. There is no lower bound on CDs for frequency response. If anyone has that Tipper CD with all the bass tones at the end, they'll know that once you get much below 40Hz you might as well not bother anyway - it's just taking up audio headroom which would be better used by other stuff. The 35Hz tone made our Genelec studio sub do some funny things, but we were buggered if we could HEAR it do anything sensible. This becomes a different ball game with big systems, but we're probably just splitting hairs over one or two Hz.

Anyway, I seem to remember someone explaining to me that vinyl has next to no bass on it when pressed, as otherwise the needle would jump all over the shop. That's why records sound weak if you accidentally plug your turntable into the Line socket instead of the Phono socket. The Phono socket runs the signal through an EQ curve which boosts the bass right back up. It looses definition in this process - and this is the "warmth" you hear people talking about. Though why this degradation can't be simulated if people really want it is beyond me...

So, on to high frequencies...

As I was saying in some other post, if you go by the Nyqust Sampling theorem then to avoid unwanted extra harmonic distortion then your sampling rate has to be twice the highest frequency you want present in your signal. This is the theoretical maths used by telecomms engineers when they're sending extremely high frequency signals down fibre optic cables etc.

http://www.animalbehavioronline.com/soundperception.html

Anyway, look at this link, and you'll find that the range of hearing is from 20Hz to 20,000Hz - or 20kHz. CDs are samples at 44.1kHz, so that's well over twice the highest frequency in human hearing, so we're fine there.

Past that, it's up to you if you think the 16-bit resolution of CDs is enough to accurately represent the dynamic headroom of a vinyl cutting. It totally depends of the depth of the cut - which is then a complete science in of itself.

I'd be very interested to put some vinyl devotees - myself included, if I'm being completely honest, I love 'em - through a blind taste test. Or, even better, a similar test to the one which proved the Placebo Effect in medicine. I would bet good money that if you think it's coming off a record, you'll swear blind it sounds better.

Anyway, back to work.... :evil:

[tocsin]

in return i would like to hear the mp3 fanatics concede that mp3's are not a profitably
viable medium.

The only reason I don't concede that is because not enough people do it yet. But, every time you see a kid with MP3s, he is a potential lost mp3 sale. He could also just be a pirate. But, you never know. Since piracy will exist regardless, I just don't see a reason not to sell high quality MP3 (or any other digital format) off of a webpage. Especially if a label already has webspace. Personally, I think it makes the moral bit harder to ignore. The accessability argument surrounding a limited number of runs goes out the window. I don't see how selling MP3s off of a webpage is going to increase piracy either. At worst, it would probably stay about the same. So, if you're already losing out on some sales as a result of people using P2P networks, why not test out the water and see if anyone's willing to buy? Selling at $1-$2 a song probably will get you a nicer return than what you get through a distributor per record.

[Internal Error Records]

in return i would like to hear the mp3 fanatics concede that mp3's are not a profitably
viable medium.

I don't see how selling MP3s off of a webpage is going to increase piracy either. At worst, it would probably stay about the same. So, if you're already losing out on some sales as a result of people using P2P networks, why not test out the water and see if anyone's willing to buy? Selling at $1-$2 a song probably will get you a nicer return than what you get through a distributor per record.

this is a good point.
many distro's and shops that are close with you, get offended if you directly sell your merchandise (of any medium) to djs for less money than your to wholesale buyers.

for example, if you stood to loose a large enough distro account, you might essentially have to charge $9 for a 4 track mp3 'ep' anyways.

[gunjack]

cant wait for china to turn into techno heads, 1 billion souls to convert to the wax....

sorry bro, but bwahahahahahaha you really think the chinese would go out and buy original copies of techno records in mainland china? the bootleggers would build a lathe out of balsa wood and cut copies themselves before ordering 12"s ;) and how would you even ship to mainaland china???? dang bro you are optimistic and that is cool, but mark my words: china aint gonna convert to wax.

[gunjack]

Anyway, I seem to remember someone explaining to me that vinyl has next to no bass on it when pressed, as otherwise the needle would jump all over the shop. That's why records sound weak if you accidentally plug your turntable into the Line socket instead of the Phono socket. The Phono socket runs the signal through an EQ curve which boosts the bass right back up. It looses definition in this process - and this is the "warmth" you hear people talking about. Though why this degradation can't be simulated if people really want it is beyond me...


:doh: ummmm no dude, go do your homework. vinyl sounds like that because it needs a poreclain preamp.

[TechMouse]

Anyway, I seem to remember someone explaining to me that vinyl has next to no bass on it when pressed, as otherwise the needle would jump all over the shop. That's why records sound weak if you accidentally plug your turntable into the Line socket instead of the Phono socket. The Phono socket runs the signal through an EQ curve which boosts the bass right back up. It looses definition in this process - and this is the "warmth" you hear people talking about. Though why this degradation can't be simulated if people really want it is beyond me...


:doh: ummmm no dude, go do your homework. vinyl sounds like that because it needs a poreclain preamp.
Yes, you're right - my mistake. Same net effect though.

Also, have a read of this: http://www.bbc.co.uk/1xtra/1xmusic/recording/masteringp06.shtml


When you're working digitally, pretty much the same limitations apply to the sound of the engineer's mastering workstation as to the final CD.

With vinyl, the limits aren't so obvious and there are certain things which will sound fine in the studio but not so great when transferred onto a vinyl master.

For example, really extreme stereo effects on bass sounds and kick drums don't tend to cut very well.

That means that there may be compromises which will be needed when mastering for vinyl and that's why you need to find an experienced engineer and to be there while they're working.
You have to make compromises with your sound when cutting a vinyl?

Surely not...

[TechMouse]

Ah, here we go... the definitive word on the subject from SOS.

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/aug04/articles/computermastering.htm


Vinyl is an unforgiving medium, and mastering for it is extremely difficult. Its dynamic range is a puny 50dB or so, even with decent vinyl, compared to the 80dB or more we enjoy with even the most basic digital media.

Bass is also troublesome. Bass waveforms have a very wide excursion and, with stereo, if the left and right channels are even slightly out of phase, the stylus can 'jump the track' as it tries in vain to follow different curves for the right and left channels. We take concepts like stereo bass for granted now, but back in the days of vinyl bass had to be mono.

[OriginalTechnobastard]

Let's get this straight. CD's put a top end on your tracks that vinyl just cant do. But vinyl, puts a bottom end on your tracks that CD's cant do.

So what's best?? Who cares as long and the music goes forward. Aphex Twin ala 1992 is some of the best music I ever heard but the top end is shite compared to these days.

And here comes in Hereos point. If you're a producer, you need to put food on the table if you're involved in this shit 24/7. So ppl like Hereos and anyone who's soley a techno producer need an income off this. We're not being gready, we just need to put food on the table. Techno at the mo doesnt allow for this without SERIOUS SERIOUS hard work. MP3 is killin artists like Hereos, and me, and anyone involved in techno. Be honest.


Men I was thinking the same. There needs to be some kind of lock to stop mp3. Its not fair on the artist.

So then how does something innovative come out of something that doesnt allow ppl to survive or buy the equipment that the damn commercial software or hardware industry has thrown upon us musicians???

F it, take it to grass roots level, we all need to stop being TWATS and be able to make a little bit of cash from our records. Have we not got the intelilligennce to do this or are MP3's gonna make us bow down and submit. F That.

[schlongfingers]

How exactly do you propose to stop MP3's?

It's like trying to ban radio, or television, or little mobile phones.

Technology exists, there's no point fighting it, you have to move with it.

[tocsin]

F it, take it to grass roots level, we all need to stop being TWATS and be able to make a little bit of cash from our records. Have we not got the intelilligennce to do this or are MP3's gonna make us bow down and submit. F That.

BTW, Mark. You need to keep in mind that not everyone is submitting to MP3. I've always been a huge supporter of audio compression tools to facilitate the transfer of music and started doing it with my own as soon as I had the means. Just about anything I've ever touched, finished or not, has been put up on my webspace or soulseek at some point. So, with some artists, there might be a bit of an ideological difference. With the way I view MP3, I'm sure I could be viewed as that annoying kid like the DJ who will play for free and undercut all those hard working DJs who are so much better and need to make a living. The free exchange of information has been an ideal of held sacred now for a majority of the time I've been on this earth. Now, I certainly don't care and can respect if an artist does not want their work spread around for free. But, what I find frustrating, particularly in the techno scene, is the "with us or against us" attitude that seems to go along with it. And considering I can't think of 1 techno artist who hasn't, at some point in time, illegally sampled copyrighted material, the stance against MP3 and filesharing is often borderline hypocritical. The way people can stop being twats is through trying to find a means to work with advancing technology rather than fighting it. Working with it will encourage people to be fluid and possibly discover someting completely new and beneficial in the process. Working against it will inevitably lead to rigidity and eventual frustration when you find that, for the most part, a hugh number of visible people simply are never going to give a **** whether or not you can put food on your table because of your music. Especially if they think they can do the same thing themselves.

On a grassroots level, try starting a space for MP3/WAV/whatever sales. Hell, at this point, I've blabbed about the idea enough that I'd be willing to help set the thing up. Wit the piracy that does occur, what does anyone have to lose?

[Komplex]

This reminds me of the whole "rebelling" thing that gets mentioned.

People, musos and dj's across the scenes and genres are rebelling against the bulsh!tness associated with the established, even "exclusive" "we won't listen to or play it unless its on vinyl" mentality.

Shit is hitting the fan. In a big way.

It will come down to adapt and evolve or be prepared to sooner or later become obsolete.

The kids of today didn't grow up with records and tape players so there is no connection on that level. What makes everyone think that they will suddenly drop their cd's, ipods and whatnot to hunt down (actually go out of their way, find and fork out for stupidly overpriced) pieces of black plastic which they can't even hear conveniently? Cus it sounds "warmer"? Cus the established labels fear piracy?

Last time I checked, soulseek had sh!tloads of copied vinyl only releases. Why is that? Maybe cus people don't want them on vinyl but thats all they are force fed with. Now theres something to rebel against. Those guys are probably thinking "f*ck you guys. Shove that vinyl in your 40 year old asses, we want something better"

Sorry but with techno's tiny audience and no airplay or decent media presence there's only one way to make it ACCESSIBLE again for the next generation. Adapt and evolve.

Techno was all about futurism. What happened to that? Oh yeah, it got arse-raped by money grabbing labels and dodgy distributors. "Buy vinyl, its cool. Buy lots of discs with loops and you can be cool too. Oh no, people aren't dumb anymore. The drugs have become weak. They want proper music! What to do now? Lets blame something that has nothing to do with the actual problem. Yeah, lets blame cd's, mp3's, filesharing, technology, the kids of today, your mum, his mum etc...."

That sort of attitude is just too RIAA styles for my liking.


SORRY about the drunken rant guys. No more for me tonite ;)

[dirty_bass]

Last time I checked, soulseek had sh!tloads of copied vinyl only releases. Why is that? Maybe cus people don't want them on vinyl but thats all they are force fed with. Now theres something to rebel against. Those guys are probably thinking "f*ck you guys. Shove that vinyl in your 40 year old asses, we want something better"

Never really thought of this. Good point.

the rest of your post was a bit strong, but I can`t say I disagree.

[Komplex]

Last time I checked, soulseek had sh!tloads of copied vinyl only releases. Why is that? Maybe cus people don't want them on vinyl but thats all they are force fed with. Now theres something to rebel against. Those guys are probably thinking "f*ck you guys. Shove that vinyl in your 40 year old asses, we want something better"

Never really thought of this. Good point.

the rest of your post was a bit strong, but I can`t say I disagree.

I guess that post had an in your face "edge" ;)
I'll tone it down from now on before someone takes it the wrong way.

[tocsin]

There's no reason why a shop couldn't be setup strictly DIY either. It's just a question of looking into the economics to figure out how much you can charge for mp3 and how economical it would be. The costs would essentially be bandwidth, space, service charges for credit cards. The bandwidth and server space issues are easy enough to deal with since the cataloging of files can be distributed over different servers on the net which would be invisible to an end user. Since the style of music here is largely a labor of love for many computer geeks, it's possible that you'd find a good number of people that would give out server space for next to nothing if not free, or for the ability to legally play the songs on their server in their home. If you use something like paypal, from the quick look I've done, they charge about 3% per transaction plus a $0.30 transaction fee. So, the question from there would just be figuring out an implementation that would make it affordable. Itunes sells tracks for $0.99.
You could be competitive with using something like paypal through using a points system where people purchase X number of downloads in one shot to keep the $0.30 paypal transaction fee from eating into costs too much. Then, there is also the option of selling your music through already existing services as well like Itunes. Ihave not found what the exact cost break down is for Itunes as far as payment is concerned. But, one advantage they do offer is that they will hit up that Ipod market and there is DRM in their formats for people who are concerned. Hell, one could always take advantage of both. Those are just two means I thought about this morning. There are likely more. Honestly, I think the hardest thing would be the same as the past, letting people know that your music exists. And there is no reason why, in the process of going the digital route, one would need to stop cutting vinyl either.

[j_s]

The kids of today didn't grow up with records and tape players so there is no connection on that level. What makes everyone think that they will suddenly drop their cd's, ipods and whatnot to hunt down (actually go out of their way, find and fork out for stupidly overpriced) pieces of black plastic which they can't even hear conveniently? Cus it sounds "warmer"? Cus the established labels fear piracy?

Last time I checked, soulseek had sh!tloads of copied vinyl only releases. Why is that? Maybe cus people don't want them on vinyl but thats all they are force fed with. Now theres something to rebel against. Those guys are probably thinking "f*ck you guys. Shove that vinyl in your 40 year old asses, we want something better"



this is a very good point. i don't dj. i have no real alliegance to vinyl. but if i want to actually buy the music i like, i ain't got a choice - it's either pay for a medium thats expensive and a hassle to use, skank from p2ps, or go without. course i could rip the vinyl, or download as well as buy the wax, but i shouldn't really need to do that. plus i'm wasting a load of money on materials that i don't actually want.

is it all that surprising that techno doesn't much when the vast majority of releases are aimed only at djs, as opposed to music fans in general?

[davethedrummer]

so .....
we need to decide on a standard cd player
so everyone cen get used to it
and we can introduce the skill factor again
because we will all need a benchmark that we understand.


true?

[davethedrummer]

so .....
we need to decide on a standard cd player
so everyone cen get used to it
and we can introduce the skill factor again
because we will all need a benchmark that we understand.


true?

[Adverse]

This reminds me of the whole "rebelling" thing that gets mentioned.

People, musos and dj's across the scenes and genres are rebelling against the bulsh!tness associated with the established, even "exclusive" "we won't listen to or play it unless its on vinyl" mentality.

Shit is hitting the fan. In a big way.

It will come down to adapt and evolve or be prepared to sooner or later become obsolete.

The kids of today didn't grow up with records and tape players so there is no connection on that level. What makes everyone think that they will suddenly drop their cd's, ipods and whatnot to hunt down (actually go out of their way, find and fork out for stupidly overpriced) pieces of black plastic which they can't even hear conveniently? Cus it sounds "warmer"? Cus the established labels fear piracy?

Last time I checked, soulseek had sh!tloads of copied vinyl only releases. Why is that? Maybe cus people don't want them on vinyl but thats all they are force fed with. Now theres something to rebel against. Those guys are probably thinking "f*ck you guys. Shove that vinyl in your 40 year old asses, we want something better"

Sorry but with techno's tiny audience and no airplay or decent media presence there's only one way to make it ACCESSIBLE again for the next generation. Adapt and evolve.

Techno was all about futurism. What happened to that? Oh yeah, it got arse-raped by money grabbing labels and dodgy distributors. "Buy vinyl, its cool. Buy lots of discs with loops and you can be cool too. Oh no, people aren't dumb anymore. The drugs have become weak. They want proper music! What to do now? Lets blame something that has nothing to do with the actual problem. Yeah, lets blame cd's, mp3's, filesharing, technology, the kids of today, your mum, his mum etc...."

That sort of attitude is just too RIAA styles for my liking.


SORRY about the drunken rant guys. No more for me tonite ;)

oh man get drunk more often.

[GothamGrooves.com]

I saw plenty of peeps usng vinyl and/or dex with laptop. We gave out a lot f cd promos ourselves to fans. But we had plnety of vinyl to give away as well..

[SYMPTOM RECORDS]

There's no reason why a shop couldn't be setup strictly DIY either. It's just a question of looking into the economics to figure out how much you can charge for mp3 and how economical it would be. The costs would essentially be bandwidth, space, service charges for credit cards.

No there isn't a reason, but if you like to sleep at nights it could be wiser to make a non-exclusive deal with some existing smaller digimusic shop - there's probably more profit for the label in it than if trying to run it yourself when you calculate all the costs. First of all the amount of work when building a working and reliable (plus secure, it's peoples money we're dealing with here) digital music shop isn't a joke. For example, there were three of us working on our Foryourears.com (http://www.foryourears.com) and it took us about 6 months to put together the first version. Even PayPal payments aren't that easy when done properly (real-time payments).

Hosting (bandwidth, backups..) is going to cost you. You can distribute files, but that requires more technical solutions (how to make sure files cannot be downloaded without payments). Credit card payment option is probably going to cost you $$$ per year. Add paying taxes to the calculation and remember to pay GEMA or a similar copyright association so they won't have to shut you down.

The most hardest thing however is the support and maintenance. Something like this requires someone to look over the shop every day - the hosting company might have problems, a hard disc can break down, there could be a programming error, someone doesn't know how to download and is pissed if you don't reply in a couple of hours max. Adding new stuff and producing content takes time. The point being: if a customer pays money to download tracks, the thing must operate 100% reliable. And when it's people + computers, things are going to break down and need immediate actions, mostly every day.

[SYMPTOM RECORDS]

It's just a question of looking into the economics to figure out how much you can charge for mp3 and how economical it would be.

Forgot one point: there's going to be fixed costs even if you don't sell a single MP3. So it cannot be calculated quite that simply.

[TechMouse]

so .....
we need to decide on a standard cd player
so everyone cen get used to it
and we can introduce the skill factor again
because we will all need a benchmark that we understand.


true?
Is there actually anyone out there who can't get their head round a CDJ?

[tocsin]

No there isn't a reason, but if you like to sleep at nights it could be wiser to make a non-exclusive deal with some existing smaller digimusic shop - there's probably more profit for the label in it than if trying to run it yourself when you calculate all the costs. First of all the amount of work when building a working and reliable (plus secure, it's peoples money we're dealing with here) digital music shop isn't a joke. For example, there were three of us working on our Foryourears.com (http://www.foryourears.com) and it took us about 6 months to put together the first version. Even PayPal payments aren't that easy when done properly (real-time payments).
Hosting (bandwidth, backups..) is going to cost you. You can distribute files, but that requires more technical solutions (how to make sure files cannot be downloaded without payments). Credit card payment option is probably going to cost you $$$ per year. Add paying taxes to the calculation and remember to pay GEMA or a similar copyright association so they won't have to shut you down.

Well, I never implied it would be easy. But, that shouldn't be a factor. Regardless, I don't think it's quite as dificult either if you take advantage of what is already available. For example, I stumbled across a PHP script that creats links which both hide the true location of a file and expire. It can also be set up to e-mail such hidden links to a user witha time limit and IP address restriction once a successful Paypal transfer goes through. The files can be stored on any server. The script costs a whopping $24 as I recall. Pursuing the existig digital distribution is a good idea too. But, in the quick scan I did for them, most seem to want exclusive deals. For example, CDBaby.com will submit your work to a number of them. But, this costs $40-$50 initially and they take 9% of every sale made. So, the digital stores they supply must take less or they'd make no profit. I just haven't seen an exact number/percentage figure for what Itunes take out of a sale. The only problem I see with the paypal route is in a technical implementation to make it profitable and competitive. If someone buys one song for a buck and that's it, paypal is going to take $0.33 off that dollar. So, if you set something up along a points type system where the initial minimum payment was $5, and you charged $1 per track, Paypal would take $0.45 out of the transfer and, dividing the remaining cash by 5,you end up making $0.91 per track which is exactly the same range as you'd get through something like CDBaby without the larger startup fee. As fr distributing and hosting the files, how many people here have webspace they'd be willing to donate? I know I've got plenty.


The most hardest thing however is the support and maintenance. Something like this requires someone to look over the shop every day - the hosting company might have problems, a hard disc can break down, there could be a programming error, someone doesn't know how to download and is pissed if you don't reply in a couple of hours max. Adding new stuff and producing content takes time. The point being: if a customer pays money to download tracks, the thing must operate 100% reliable. And when it's people + computers, things are going to break down and need immediate actions, mostly every day.

It's still doable. It's just a matter of people putting their heads together and testing systems out. The nice thing is that, when it comes to e-commerce, lots of people have forged a path for it already and have made their code public. Nothing works 100% effective ever. But, even taking the negative into consideration, I just don't see how it's a losing situation.

[tocsin]

And look who's taking the lead. From the Truelove Newsletter:

Music Downloads are becoming an ever more popular way to purchase music. Now through our online store
as well as the vinyl and Cds on sale you can purchase full stereo Mp3's of new releases, as well as
rare and previously deleted items, for only 99p. Newly added Mp3's include the extremely rare
Magnetic North and brand new releases from leading Techno labels Stay Up Forever, Hydraulix and RAW.
If the Mp3 you after is not available don't worry! New Mp3's are added all the time to our database
so keep checking back regularly to see if it has become available.
********************
>> The all new Digital Collective
The Digital Collective Series is finally here. Exclusive to truelove.co.uk this series will showcase
our finest djs and forthcoming releases across our various labels well ahead of release date.
Each high quality, full stereo, un-edited MP3 mix is between 30 and 45 minuets long and is great for
getting you warmed up for your night out or to hear future releases available to buy in the mix.
Each mix costs only £3.49 which is great value for money and will feature as many as 15 tracks
seamlessly mixed by a leading dj from the techno scene!! Thats less then 25p per track!
Digital Collective 1.0
First up to launch the series is Aaron Liberator.
Aaron's style of music covers everything from house to hard techno, whilst keeping it funky and
trippy with a freestyle attitude.
To Download or preview goto www.truelove.co.uk/digital

[davethedrummer]

so .....
we need to decide on a standard cd player
so everyone cen get used to it
and we can introduce the skill factor again
because we will all need a benchmark that we understand.


true?
Is there actually anyone out there who can't get their head round a CDJ?

of course not ( well maybe.....)
but what i mean is in the clubs.
cd players really vary in "feel" and design and i would very much like it to become a bit more standardised so i can get used to one type. and really get into it.

i use cds a bit these days so its becoming an important subject for me.

[Komplex]

so .....
we need to decide on a standard cd player
so everyone cen get used to it
and we can introduce the skill factor again
because we will all need a benchmark that we understand.


true?
Is there actually anyone out there who can't get their head round a CDJ?

of course not ( well maybe.....)
but what i mean is in the clubs.
cd players really vary in "feel" and design and i would very much like it to become a bit more standardised so i can get used to one type. and really get into it.

i use cds a bit these days so its becoming an important subject for me.

I hear ya there. Probably when all the companies get their shit sorted with vinyl feel cd decks (with the platter, like the pinoeer models). Things will be easier because they will all funtion the same.

But from a personal point of view, I think the Final scratch and Serato option is better for traditional dj's. It's the same way as using regular turntables, same skills but you hook your laptop up with all your tracks in WAV format. So it will be pretty much laptops replacing a crate of records but everything else remains the same. Instead of digging in the crate you load up the next track and its back to mixing the traditional way.

Cd's are cool as a way to sell music. The physical product is there, and so are the means to distribute it (post/shops etc). Its flexible, you can play them wherever (cd players everywhere) and you can rip it to a laptop for mixing or use a cd deck IF thats your thing. With mp3 you still have the problem of downloading a large file which is lame if people have slow conections...

[OriginalTechnobastard]

I've nothing against mp3s. I listen to them myself. It can be great use to push your music to unknown places. We are not being arsey or tight with vinyls. I just got a problem with people ripping each other's harddrives for songs and never buying music. Thats not right. Don't buy it if you don't like it that much, but if you do, you should buy the music. Mp3s are great for lives and rare stuff that is impossible to get. And vinyls are worth it for the 'warm' factor. Without a doubt. Anyone telling you otherwise is not right.

[TechMouse]

of course not ( well maybe.....)
but what i mean is in the clubs.
cd players really vary in "feel" and design and i would very much like it to become a bit more standardised so i can get used to one type. and really get into it.

i use cds a bit these days so its becoming an important subject for me.
Fair enough.

Though I reckon 9 times out of 10, if a club is gonna fit CD Decks they put in Pioneer. This is certainly the case in any club I've ever played round here. There's differences across the various different models but by and large all the Pioneers have the same modus operandi.

So, I'd go with that.