Forget MP3 - The future is WMA with Digital Rights Managment

[Antinoise]

While everyone is looking behind their shoulder bitching about people sealing music MP3's everyone has been blind to the future. Microsoft’s latest Windows Media Audio 10 (.WMA) that has DRM (Digital Rights Management) is uncrackable thus far. Windows also releases updates to windows that constantly secure it even further.

Final Scratch currently supports WMA but not the latest version with DRM.. Why I don't know... I'm sure in the next release Final Scratch, as well as all other legit digital media players will support WMA with DRM and we will enter a new generation of secure music.

The only down side to this is Mac is too stubborn to support WMA. This is going to end up hurting Apple in all their audio and video business models unless they open their eyes. (Ipod, Itunes...etc) (****Related but unrelated.... Napster’s new pay $10.00 per month model (which uses WMA) kills the 99c iTune’s model... And now ITunes can't adopt such a model because the mp4 encryption they use is not secure enough to let people download all the music they want...... buy stock in Napster, sell your Apple stock)

Yes there will always be people that will record the output to an input, but my feeling is as long as its inherently secure, it will work. There will always be a layer of thievry amongst us. The fact is: a system that sells artist mastered WMA files over the web is so efficient there is way more to be gained than lost.

It is the furture, I can't believe it has yet to be discussed on this forum. Embrace it!!

[g]

i was going to ignore the maven thing.. nothing new about that

but the day wma is the future of anything....

dude.

no.

[Antinoise]

...the day wma is the future of anything....

dude.

no.
Whatever... keep swinning upstream with your eyes closed....
Its been out for 6 months and still uncracked...

[dirty_bass]

Wow, thanks for that. Very interesting.
An uncrackable (or at least difficult to crack) digital media is just the ticket. :clap:

[eyes without a face]

very interesting post, altho the quality of WMA needs to improve if this way to develop into a marketable media

i dont know the technical specs of WMA but the files i have in this format just seem a bit below par sound quality wise

but this is a good point, one most will brush aside straight away but definately something to think about at least

[schlongfingers]

Someone will hack it, it's software at the end of the day.

[acidsaturation]

So how does this work?

Does this mean that the players will only support files that have been purchased?

So what if you want to put files on a CD you own onto an mp3 player??

I'm confused...

[gumpy green]

Someone will hack it, it's software at the end of the day.yeh just record it digitally/line in then save as wav.........easy

[TechMouse]

Someone will hack it, it's software at the end of the day.yeh just record it digitally/line in then save as wav.........easy
Yeah, I was just gonna say this.

Fundamental flaw of anything playing on a PC is that you can always grab it from the back of the soundcard. Whatever encryption there is, whatever clever file format, whatever software jiggery-pokery, it's still playing - and you can do a noiseless recording of that in your OS.

Yes, there's a marginal loss in quality (and I mean marginal), but I doubt you could hear it - especially if you record at a very high sample rate and then dither.

[tocsin]

Wow, thanks for that. Very interesting.
An uncrackable (or at least difficult to crack) digital media is just the ticket. :clap:

There is no such thing. While I haven't tried this out: http://home.wanadoo.nl/lc.staak/freeme.htm

[mrbenn]

You can get WMA to MP3 convertors at the moment


http://www.wma-mp3.com/

But I agree the WMA provides slightly more security, so it is worth looking into, also WMA's can be recorded at a fairly good standard now about 340kb I think

[Joseph Isaac]

Break it down to assembly code and crack it. Only a matter of time.

[Antinoise]

You can get WMA to MP3 convertors at the moment


http://www.wma-mp3.com/


All current WMA to MP3 converters do not work on WMA with DRM (digital rights managment). Its a whole different layer of security.

I just tried the Freeme program.. It would not crack the WMA's (with DRM) that I have.

[gumpy green]

why is ther a need to crack it???

why not just play it into soundcard and record it in real time as wav??with good soundcard/software you wont notice the difference in quality.

[g]

Whatever... keep swinning upstream with your eyes closed.....

LOL. you sound like a televangelist.

a) you don't want to give M$ that much control over your work. trust me. they have a very backward way of thinking about your privacy; i.e. if it suits them, great. otherwise, pfffft.
b) DO NOT rely on them to maintain a consistent format/implementation. a complete library of WMA files has a much higher likelihood of someday being a completely useless library.
c) anything is crackable. ANYTHING. before all this, records could be (re)recorded, CDs could be copied en masse. there's no such thing as secure in this respect. it's just that, like general information & the internet, digital media has made the already very shareable music out there easier to share. it's not like piracy was born yesterday. hello? china?
d) personally i've never encountered a WMA format (including 10) that didn't sound like crap and wasn't a total hassle to deal with.
e) anything from M$ that is supposedly that secure almost positively has the application "phone home" dealio -- M$ is monitoring you and you can be sure it's not just your DRM usage. you've just invited Big Brother in for tea.

all that said, if it works for you, cool. go for it.

but don't try to tell me the earth has just changed rotation because Microsuck has just released yet another self-serving product. doesn't it strike you as odd that they are on version TEN of this format and pretty much the whole world still thinks it's a joke?

[mrbenn]

a) you don't want to give M$ that much control over your work. trust me. they have a very backward way of thinking about your privacy; i.e. if it suits them, great. otherwise, pfffft.
b) DO NOT rely on them to maintain a consistent format/implementation. a complete library of WMA files has a much higher likelihood of someday being a completely useless library.
c) anything is crackable. ANYTHING. before all this, records could be (re)recorded, CDs could be copied en masse. there's no such thing as secure in this respect. it's just that, like general information & the internet, digital media has made the already very shareable music out there easier to share. it's not like piracy was born yesterday. hello? china?
d) personally i've never encountered a WMA format (including 10) that didn't sound like crap and wasn't a total hassle to deal with.
e) anything from M$ that is supposedly that secure almost positively has the application "phone home" dealio -- M$ is monitoring you and you can be sure it's not just your DRM usage. you've just invited Big Brother in for tea.


Some interesting points there, I see what you mean about giving microsoft to much controll over your work, most microsoft programs have alot behind the scenes stuff going on which absoloutly anhilates any privacy you would like on your PC. Most microsoft software is shite, windows for example is a big pile of wank as are publisher & word.

I want an apple mac! [/quote]

[Joseph Isaac]

why is ther a need to crack it???

why not just play it into soundcard and record it in real time as wav??with good soundcard/software you wont notice the difference in quality.


Eggsactly! This is what i do for the satellite radio (Sirius) "exclusives". No way to stop recording...

[Komplex]

I think all this copy protection is a bit of a wank.

There is no way to stop piracy and there NEVER was. If theres a will theres a way and its usually pretty easy too (as demonstrated each and every time). Vinyl, tape, cd, its always easy to copy.

I wish record companies and kunts like the RIAA would stop whining about lost sales because of pirating. Lets face it, if people don't want to buy music, they won't and you can't force them to either. There are too many factors involved.

Just keep the format simple, easy to operate with, realistically priced to manufacture and make sure you put GOOD music on it.

[dirty_bass]

well, some form of encryption to at least make it a bit more difficult is a good thing.
Obviously you can never eliminate it.
but at the moment it is a little over the top.

[Jimfish]

i dont understand what it would actually do?
does it mean you buy a WMA file and and you can only play it back on the pc you bought it on or somthing?
if so that sounds wank, if not then what does it do?

[eyes without a face]

i think if this was to work it would be alongside the vinyl, multi-format release with the online distributors offering the WMA file for download instead of the mp3?

not sure tho really!

[tocsin]

i dont understand what it would actually do?
does it mean you buy a WMA file and and you can only play it back on the pc you bought it on or somthing?
if so that sounds wank, if not then what does it do?

That's basically the jist of it.

[Antinoise]

i dont understand what it would actually do?
does it mean you buy a WMA file and and you can only play it back on the pc you bought it on or somthing?
if so that sounds wank, if not then what does it do?

With Napster tracks for example you can register 3 PC's to work with the WMA's that you buy. You can unregister and register new computers as your computer setup changes...

And look, regarding all the posts to this point…….. the original point of this thread is not to turn it into a Microsoft sucks post or to debate weather WMA will ever be cracked... The point is that it’s a strong format that is safe to the average user. The "MP3" name alone just has too much bad blood associated with it, it scares everyone. WMA is a welcome coming. Soon every new online retailer of mainstream music (Napster, Yahoo, Rapsoity….. everyone except ITunes) will use WMA. It’s not going to be an obscure format any longer. I imaging in the next release of windows or further updates to WMA it will only get stronger.

[j_s]

i dont understand what it would actually do?
does it mean you buy a WMA file and and you can only play it back on the pc you bought it on or somthing?
if so that sounds wank, if not then what does it do?

With Napster tracks for example you can register 3 PC's to work with the WMA's that you buy. You can unregister and register new computers as your computer setup changes...

what about burning discs, using on mp3s players etc?

[schlongfingers]

And look, regarding all the posts to this point…….. the original point of this thread is not to turn it into a Microsoft sucks post or to debate weather WMA will ever be cracked... The point is that it’s a strong format that is safe to the average user. The "MP3" name alone just has too much bad blood associated with it, it scares everyone. WMA is a welcome coming. Soon every new online retailer of mainstream music (Napster, Yahoo, Rapsoity….. everyone except ITunes) will use WMA. It’s not going to be an obscure format any longer. I imaging in the next release of windows or further updates to WMA it will only get stronger.

There's an awful lot of assumption going on here.

It may be a 'strong' format now, but only to those who dont know how to record their output to their input, and within no time at all the format will be hacked and even that small amount of technical knowledge will not be necessary to rip the audio.

People aren't scared of MP3, it's a pretty established format, it's players are ubiquotous, people are at home with handling MP3's and are very very unlikely to start dumping it in favour of MP3 becauuse it offers no benefit to them, the end consumer. In fact it is a hindrance, it's difficult to transfer to their preferred listening format, suffers in its native state from a lack of playback methods, is incompatable with DJ tools and portable players and most importantly offers no improvement in sound quality, in fact it degrades to many ears.

Download centres aren't going to succesfully force a format on its consumers, they will just lose business. It's like Blockbuster ripping all its DVDs and videos off the shelves and stocking only Betamax.

[dirty_bass]

What`s a video?

[tioneb]

The thing making you think the DRM wokrs is that the software you are using to convert WMA to mp3 doesnt work. Fair enough.

BUT :

1) You want to transfer your music from your PC to your mp3 player. Hopefully it should work (otherwise, why purchase digital music?).

2) You want to play your file on another PC or mp3 player. Hopefully you can (otherwise, why purchase digital music? a legally bought CD can be played in every CD player on the earth).

So either these two points do not work and then this new format is totally unusable, otherwise it means these files can be exchanged and playe do,n every PC / mp3 player on the earth so i dont really see how can illegal copies could be avoided.

[Komplex]

The thing making you think the DRM wokrs is that the software you are using to convert WMA to mp3 doesnt work. Fair enough.

BUT :

1) You want to transfer your music from your PC to your mp3 player. Hopefully it should work (otherwise, why purchase digital music?).

2) You want to play your file on another PC or mp3 player. Hopefully you can (otherwise, why purchase digital music? a legally bought CD can be played in every CD player on the earth).

So either these two points do not work and then this new format is totally unusable, otherwise it means these files can be exchanged and playe do,n every PC / mp3 player on the earth so i dont really see how can illegal copies could be avoided.

Exactly. Its just microsoft being idiots and trying to buy into the whole digital music thing while pretending to offer piracy protection.

[420gang]

now its cracked................. :rambo:

and u can compress to mp3 easily,......................bye

[dirty_bass]

now its cracked................. :rambo:

and u can compress to mp3 easily,......................bye
Great, more free downloads for you then ey?

[Apex Beat]

Hmm, I suppose I pick and choose when it comes to piracy (I guess thats the consumer in me hehe) but I hope I'll always support the small techno and electronic music lables (I dont really care about downloading the latest chemical brothers album however, although thats gone in the recycle bin much faster than it took to download). It kinda annoys me to see kids rocking laptops and not paying for anything they're playing, considering I've spend a few thousand on vinyl in the past three years... Which I'm glad about, I dont mind knowing my money is making glenn wilsons toast in the morning or paying for Paul baileys electricity bills, as long as they keep banging out mental shit.

[tocsin]

Can someone please explain to me this concern about piracy? I never remember this being a concern in techno. Did you feel guilty when you got a mix tape from a DJ? Have you included full set lists with every mix you've ever done? Have you contacted and negotiated a price with artists for any materials you've sampled (there is no five second rule)? Have you contacted every artist who's track you used on a mix and paid appropriate royalties (giving the mix away for free doesn't change this requirement)? I never ever saw this shit come up until people thought they could be rockstars with techno. At one point, it seemed that techno damn near prided itself on how fast and easilly it could take rearrange the sounds of others, often within the genre. Seriously, how many of you get burnt if you see some kid with your tracks on Soulseek? How many of you get pissed if you hear someone playing a digital copy of your music? Hell, when's the last time you saw royalties for a DJ playing your track publicly
anyways? Hell, how many people here have paid for all the tools they use to right music? What's arguably worse? Downloading a $0.06-$0.10 for listening purposes or downloading $500+ software to write music and sell it? I can understand not approving of piracy. But, it seems people have gotten a little overly anal about it.

Something to ponder. Considering how many people here probably share the opinion that techno is saturated with crap releases because of kids with software who rightly believe that they can learn to produce the music themselves, is adopting a similar tired stance of the RIAA, or making it increasingly dificult through technology for people to hear music, going to do anything but encourage people to give you 2 middle fingers and possibly ram them up your ass as they get more proficient with their own music? Those of you who have legally purchased everything you use to cut a track and get high and mighty on me. The rest of you, however, are pretty much hypocrites if you'll scold others who, when it comes to the royalty payments one would earn from sales, have stolen les money with their entire digital music collection than a number of producers have stolen by just downloading one effects plugin pack.

[TechMouse]

Well said that man.

[OriginalTechnobastard]

Really? Don't you think once we see the music get better, that he has a point? Its easy writing replies, but when you got nothing out with nothing to backup your yap, its pure nonsense to me. Again I don't see his point.

[OriginalTechnobastard]

Can someone please explain to me this concern about 2 middle fingers and possibly ram them up your ass .

Your business is your business. No need to tell us all about it m8! :lol:

[OriginalTechnobastard]

Again, why don't people just do their music and stop moaning about people's opinions. If anything, it should encourage you to make better music. Correct?

[Dave Elyzium]

havent read the replies so sorry if someones mentioned this already but whats top stop recording the mp3 as audio and rippiong to cd, mp3 etc?

[SlavikSvensk]

The rest of you, however, are pretty much hypocrites if you'll scold others who, when it comes to the royalty payments one would earn from sales, have stolen les money with their entire digital music collection than a number of producers have stolen by just downloading one effects plugin pack.

you make a good point, but there are two issues here, that i see a big ethical line between. the first is grabbing something for personal consumption (e.g. a dj set off soulseek), the other is grabbing something to profit off of (e.g. an mp3 used in a dj set). i can't imagine too many people on here being upset about the former, but the latter is a different story...and it's not like sampling, unless you are sampling a large chunk of a tune and not changing it...but this is techno we're talking about, not house... :shock: as for using cracked software...that's another story..i'd also be curious to see how people view that...

the bottom line, though, is that techno, like everything else in life, is ruled by the cruel math of economics. when you rip mp3s and use them in paid dj sets, you are ripping off the producers, who should be compensated for their work, and unlike 50 cent or metallica or another RIAA pet, techno producers aren't really asking for much.

[tocsin]

I just see it as small potatoes. A lot of DJs charge money for their mixes to cover the costs of tapes, CDs and other miscellaneous expenses. But, I've never heard anyone bitch about not getting paid royalties for their track being on some DJs mix. I've never known any techno producers who, upon hearing a DJ play one of their tracks publicly, going up to that DJ to make sure they'll be reporting their setlist to ASCAP or something similar. And, to be honest, I don't know a soul getting paid DJ bookings who is using stolen music. Most of the people I know who can demand good money for spinning a set are sent the tracks for free via promo. As I said earlier, for the producer who has done everything square, they can get high and mighty and I'll respect their opinion. But, for those who pirate themselves, whether through software, sampling or both, they feel the same to me as a politician with a junk habit pushing for harder sentences on junkies. It gets hard to take after awhile.
"Do as I say, not as I do!" ;)

[Komplex]

very well said tocs.