The MP3 question.

[massplanck]

howdy.

I'd guess that a lot of people here use Soulseek et al to download music etc. I'm just wondering what sort of effect this has when people just download mp3's burn them to CD and DJ out with a load of tracks they never paid for or didnt even bother trying to hunt down.

I dunno I seem to be in the minority i think when i say I very very very rarely have an mp3 on my PC that i didnt pay for\i dont own on vinyl. Thats not to say I might not download the odd track or album to find out about a particular artist but then i usually make a decision to bin it or buy it. Even doing this is rare for me though. Supporting the artist and all that.

I have just been enraged because I was told by someone on another forum (heated argument) that they only download music because 'to keep ahead of the pack' they need the latest tunes and by the time it comes out on wax the tune isnt worth playing no more. Obviuosly this person is a clown of the highest order but other explanations given were 'i wouldnt have bought it anyway' or 'i dont have much money to spend on music' (after paying the broadband bills/ buying a pc/ top of the range CD deck/drugs/booze etc tec)

Sorry what set me off was a good mate you used to buy lets say the odd bit of music being handed 100 gigs of tunes and proclaiming that he wont have to spend any more on music for the year. He's not a DJ or anything, just your average joe soap but he did by the odd CD before all this shit started.

I dunno. Is there an ethical argument against someone who downloads hideous amounts of music and then plays these track out on CD decks the whole time & proclaiming they are a great dj with an interest in the scene?

[TechMouse]

I dunno. Is there an ethical argument against someone who downloads hideous amounts of music and then plays these track out on CD decks the whole time & proclaiming they are a great dj with an interest in the scene?
Yes.

If they're playing stuff downloaded illegally, then they're stealing from record labels. Most small record labels exist on a knife-edge anyway, and rely on the very small amount of money they get from people buying their records in order to keep going.

If you aren't paying for your tunes, then you're contributing the the demise of small record labels.

[massplanck]

I'm firmly in that camp myself TechMouse.

The scary thing was that in this argument i was pretty much on my own which is pretty disheartening for the future. Some people have different agendas though ie.. people who do spend money on music but download tracks that couldnt be found like (deleted classics) or stuff that goes for 100 euros on ebay or something. There is a small case for that alright but the problem is you cant go around inspecting peoples hardrives to find out how sincere they are.

[TechMouse]

I'm firmly in that camp myself TechMouse.

The scary thing was that in this argument i was pretty much on my own which is pretty disheartening for the future. Some people have different agendas though ie.. people who do spend money on music but download tracks that couldnt be found like (deleted classics) or stuff that goes for 100 euros on ebay or something. There is a small case for that alright but the problem is you cant go around inspecting peoples hardrives to find out how sincere they are.
In all fairness, I have played tunes off CD, some of which I have downloaded on MP3 - but there are only three circumstances...

1) It's unreleased - i.e. a friend's track, or something.

2) It's a joke - i.e. a one off, one play thing which I wouldn't buy normally.

3) I cannot, for the life of me, track down a copy on wax.

[dan the acid man]

if were talking dance music then i have very few mp3's anyway, most of the mp3's i own are mix sets, and the small ammount of tracks i own, i own on vinyl too, one day i may get round to ripping all my vinyl as wav files, but to be honest it would take me ages, but i will do it someday.

as for other styles of music, then yes, i do sometimes try before i buy, but if i like it, i go and buy it

[SlavikSvensk]

i got in a huge argument with a friend of mine about this. his attitude is that he's being counter-cultural or something by ripping music. i told him that when he downloads mp3s of electronic artists, he's not fighting some corporate evil, but attacking the feeble economy of dance music, and making it harder and harder for this whole thing to work.

but there is one other ethical point to make...

is this ethically different from using pirated software? if so, why?

[UngratefulNinja]

I also rarely play tracks off cd.

If its something from a friend, or something I cannot find for the life of me (and believe me, I've tried, because there's only a handful of tunes I have been unable to track down) I'll have it on mp3 on my comp and may burn it to cd to play out.

Other than that however, I've always played just about everything on vinyl, because I know that without that kind of support (unless you run a good mp3 download service :) ) the music I love wouldn't be here in the same way it is today.

[gumpy green]

if anybody spots an artist doing this -playing out live in clubs earing cash from ripping folks off .....GRASS THEM UP.ther stealing from our scene and we want it to survive....dont we?

[FILTERZ]

it is not different from using pirated software its the same thing
stealing

[TechMouse]

it is not different from using pirated software its the same thing
stealing
Agreed.

The difference is, I can afford to spend a bit of money on vinyl now and then.

I can't afford to spunk a load on software.

[dan the acid man]

it is not different from using pirated software its the same thing
stealing

i agree, but micorosft are a bunch of money grabbing monopolising twats, allegedly :lol:

[Barely Human]

it is not different from using pirated software its the same thing
stealing

i agree, but micorosft are a bunch of money grabbing monopolising twats, allegedly :lol:

But then you could get into an ethics roundabout if you are illegally downloading a track made by an artist who used a cracked copy of fruityloops and a load of ripped samples :doh:

Work that one out... :shock: :lol:

[dan the acid man]

im sure every artist has used an illegal piece of software at some time

[Francisco Scaramanga]

When napster first hit the news a years back, I thought it was the greatest thing since sliced bread, and downloaded feckloads of stuff. To be fair, it wasnt ever really dance music though, more like if there was some band that only ever did one good tune and I couldent be asked to buy the whole album I'd just download that one tune.

And I used to have no doubt thousands of pounds worth of cracked software as well.

But I slowly felt more and more guilty about it, and eventually decided to be honest about it all, and not rip people off (it helps that I have more money now than I did then).

So now I dont. I am admittedly using a ripped off copy of Reason 3, but I will pay for it, I only got a copy of Reason 2.5 6 months ago or something (and thats a bought copy) and now that I know Reason 3 is worth a few more bucks I'll dish it out when I can.

As for MP3's, I am still on soulseek, and I do use it, but primarily to download mixes, which I dont have any moral/ethical issues with. I also download the occasional track to check it out, but if I like it, I'll buy the real thing. If I dont like it, although it may still live on my hard drive, I dont listen to it, and so dont really feel guilty about having downloaded it. Every so often stuff like this gets rounded up and deleted anyway.

As for playing out with tunes that I've downloaded, well, I have played a few old funk tracks and that sort of thing, but they are impossible to find on any format, and the artists who did them may well be dead anyway, so I dont get bothered about that, but thats about it.

Downloading and playing out new tunes is unforgiveable if you ask me. If someone slipped in a classic or two that are impossible to get on vinyl I could probably forgive them, but not if its something that could easily be bought in the local record shop.

[SlavikSvensk]

i feel the same way, man...i can't use cracked software anymore because i know companies like propellerheads and native instruments make their whole livelihood off a very small number of sales. it does burn me up, though, that they price everything so high.

as for playing mp3s...i wouldn't do it because i don't want to steal from the community i feel a part of.

[daviec]

if anybody spots an artist doing this -playing out live in clubs earing cash from ripping folks off .....GRASS THEM UP.ther stealing from our scene and we want it to survive....dont we?

I got worried about this the other night when I was playing. I bought a legal mp3 from Xpress Beats, and burnt it to CD to play out. If you seen me in the club about to play a CDR with the track name handwritten on it, how would you react. How can you tell wether or not I paid for that track?

[RDR]

My attitude is that i wont download music i have paid for at some time in my life.

I also download mixes off radio 1 that i missed, although i dont keep em forever, if i like a tune ill go and search for it, but i need to hear a tune a few times to decide as i prefer music with longevity rather than stuff that wont last.

As for MP3 - either the way in which we pay for it changes or the industry dies. simple.

It works like this.

Everyone who isnt in the business and has the access will rip it, it doesnt even appear on their radar as a crime.

[massplanck]

hmmm.

How is downloading cracked software different from stealing music? Its not but....

I would hope that any producer who releases/makes money from their music/performances would be using legit software or at least making a decent effort towards sorting it out. Just look in the free VST plugins folder for some great stuff to use with your er.. :crackup: ed copy of cubase.

I suppose the difference is that :crackup: ed software is generally as unstable as **** where as a copy of a mp3 is well.. a perfect copy. The instabilty of cracked versions of software et al drives or should drive a sane headed person who wants to take his music a step further into shelling out. Anyone who takes the piss and is getting a bit of an income from music & doesnt think about this shout be shot with their own ball of shite. If software didnt exist would you still be making music regardless? yess ... but on what ? shit you saved for.

[massplanck]

I got worried about this the other night when I was playing. I bought a legal mp3 from Xpress Beats, and burnt it to CD to play out. If you seen me in the club about to play a CDR with the track name handwritten on it, how would you react. How can you tell wether or not I paid for that track?

We'd question you backstage afterwards with the help of the doormen.

[Barely Human]

hmmm.

How is downloading cracked software different from stealing music? Its not but....

I would hope that any producer who releases/makes money from their music/performances would be using legit software or at least making a decent effort towards sorting it out. Just look in the free VST plugins folder for some great stuff to use with your er.. :crackup: ed copy of cubase.

I suppose the difference is that :crackup: ed software is generally as unstable as **** where as a copy of a mp3 is well.. a perfect copy. The instabilty of cracked versions of software et al drives or should drive a sane headed person who wants to take his music a step further into shelling out. Anyone who takes the piss and is getting a bit of an income from music & doesnt think about this shout be shot with their own ball of shite. If software didnt exist would you still be making music regardless? yess ... but on what ? shit you saved for.

I dont know what cracked versions you have been using, but the ones i have used work perfectly. A crack only bypasses the registration issues and has nothing to do with the core program...

[crime]

hmmm.

I would hope that any producer who releases/makes money from their music/performances would be using legit software or at least making a decent effort towards sorting it out.

trouble is it's a bit hard when you don't make any money because everyone downloads your music..

[Will]

When napster first hit the news a years back, I thought it was the greatest thing since sliced bread, and downloaded feckloads of stuff. To be fair, it wasnt ever really dance music though, more like if there was some band that only ever did one good tune and I couldent be asked to buy the whole album I'd just download that one tune.

And I used to have no doubt thousands of pounds worth of cracked software as well.

But I slowly felt more and more guilty about it, and eventually decided to be honest about it all, and not rip people off (it helps that I have more money now than I did then).

So now I dont. I am admittedly using a ripped off copy of Reason 3, but I will pay for it, I only got a copy of Reason 2.5 6 months ago or something (and thats a bought copy) and now that I know Reason 3 is worth a few more bucks I'll dish it out when I can.

As for MP3's, I am still on soulseek, and I do use it, but primarily to download mixes, which I dont have any moral/ethical issues with. I also download the occasional track to check it out, but if I like it, I'll buy the real thing. If I dont like it, although it may still live on my hard drive, I dont listen to it, and so dont really feel guilty about having downloaded it. Every so often stuff like this gets rounded up and deleted anyway.

As for playing out with tunes that I've downloaded, well, I have played a few old funk tracks and that sort of thing, but they are impossible to find on any format, and the artists who did them may well be dead anyway, so I dont get bothered about that, but thats about it.

Downloading and playing out new tunes is unforgiveable if you ask me. If someone slipped in a classic or two that are impossible to get on vinyl I could probably forgive them, but not if its something that could easily be bought in the local record shop.

You can upgrade 2.5 to 3 for about £70 can't you?

[crime]

I dont know what cracked versions you have been using, but the ones i have used work perfectly.
I like the way you left the urls on your sig so they can chase you up without much bother... ;)

[massplanck]

hmmm.

I would hope that any producer who releases/makes money from their music/performances would be using legit software or at least making a decent effort towards sorting it out.

trouble is it's a bit hard when you don't make any money because everyone downloads your music..

Yeah. Thats the paradox i'm afraid. Then again you couldnt make music if you didnt have the software ( if you use software that is)

Thing is. Its probably about time every techno track in history was put into a huge databass where people downloaded a track for say 99c. I dunno something like an underground itunes with every release ever available.

Lets say someone want the last four release on Crime records on mp3 format and is more than willing to pay... where can the punter go to to get this?

How is Warps mp3\album download thingy doing does anybody know?

[SlavikSvensk]

uTunes?

[SlavikSvensk]

trouble is it's a bit hard when you don't make any money because everyone downloads your music..

there's money in techno? ;)

[Joseph Isaac]

Thing is. Its probably about time every techno track in history was put into a huge databass where people downloaded a track for say 99c. I dunno something like an underground itunes with every release ever available.


Excellent idea. I would love to organize something of this sort. However, i believe you would run into a number of issues:

1) First and foremost, financing. A project of this magnitude will REQUIRE a hefty sum of captial to pay for research, contracting, licensing, legalities, insurance, server space, web fees,and the list goes on and on. One could posit that you [the company] may decide to provide the infrastructure, but the majority of the "lesser known" labels approach you with their music to be hosted and licensed, but this is of minimal effect to the overall cost in order for something like this to be profitable (yes, it has to be profitable for something of this magnitude must not be simply sustainable, but able to generate earnings). Think about it, major companies such as Napster, Realnetworks, Apple, and most recently Yahoo, all provide "itunes" style services, yet only the two larger-cap companies are the only ones returning positive earnings and they are all publicly traded (i.e. shares are held by the public thus generating substantial amounts of workable capital)!!! Moreover, those positive earnings for Apple and Yahoo are not related to their download services, but other products and services.

2) Politics. Yes, politics. Who will and won't want to be a part of it? Who controls it? Who is affected? How are they affected? Will the heads from Detroit support it? Or for that matter will heads from different geographic areas support it and others not? How will it be advertised? Will it be marketed? Does the undergroundness of the music get lost in all the red tape? Politics will no doubt play a part in a massive database of catalog after catalog of years worth of underground music. I mean look at what happened to DEMF and what it has evolved into with regard to the political implications...

3) Finally, major labels/big business. Let's say a major holdings firm accepts the most astounding business proposal ever to fund such a project. Now imagine something like this being profitable in say 5 years. Eventually big business will eventually need to do [and what they already do]what they call on Wall Street "growing their company" by "mergers and acquisitions." If something that is a profitable commodity to say Universal, BMG, Sony, or EMI approaches the owner(s) of such a label with a ridiculous offer (which may only be fractional to the conglomerate) with a huge settlement buyout, stock options and the like, well, let's be realistic folks, I think everyone has their price. Now MANY will argue against this point, because of the whole "screw the man, f*ck the establishment, punk snot dead" schpiel, but those people would be opposed to something like this in the first place.

I hate to sound like a jaded pessimist and I apologize for getting off topic, but out of everything I've read so far, this stuck out the most and it inspired me to write.

Plus I've been writing essays on topics in metaphysics, ethics, Nietzsche, and Spinoza nonstop for the past 3 weeks so arguing seems to be flowing freely. :cool:

[The Overfiend]

Send me some of those reports Joe.
Also Great points from a monopoly perspective. :clap:

[Komplex]

Thing is. Its probably about time every techno track in history was put into a huge databass where people downloaded a track for say 99c. I dunno something like an underground itunes with every release ever available.


Excellent idea. I would love to organize something of this sort. However, i believe you would run into a number of issues:

1) First and foremost, financing. A project of this magnitude will REQUIRE a hefty sum of captial to pay for research, contracting, licensing, legalities, insurance, server space, web fees,and the list goes on and on. One could posit that you [the company] may decide to provide the infrastructure, but the majority of the "lesser known" labels approach you with their music to be hosted and licensed, but this is of minimal effect to the overall cost in order for something like this to be profitable (yes, it has to be profitable for something of this magnitude must not be simply sustainable, but able to generate earnings). Think about it, major companies such as Napster, Realnetworks, Apple, and most recently Yahoo, all provide "itunes" style services, yet only the two larger-cap companies are the only ones returning positive earnings and they are all publicly traded (i.e. shares are held by the public thus generating substantial amounts of workable capital)!!! Moreover, those positive earnings for Apple and Yahoo are not related to their download services, but other products and services.

2) Politics. Yes, politics. Who will and won't want to be a part of it? Who controls it? Who is affected? How are they affected? Will the heads from Detroit support it? Or for that matter will heads from different geographic areas support it and others not? How will it be advertised? Will it be marketed? Does the undergroundness of the music get lost in all the red tape? Politics will no doubt play a part in a massive database of catalog after catalog of years worth of underground music. I mean look at what happened to DEMF and what it has evolved into with regard to the political implications...

3) Finally, major labels/big business. Let's say a major holdings firm accepts the most astounding business proposal ever to fund such a project. Now imagine something like this being profitable in say 5 years. Eventually big business will eventually need to do [and what they already do]what they call on Wall Street "growing their company" by "mergers and acquisitions." If something that is a profitable commodity to say Universal, BMG, Sony, or EMI approaches the owner(s) of such a label with a ridiculous offer (which may only be fractional to the conglomerate) with a huge settlement buyout, stock options and the like, well, let's be realistic folks, I think everyone has their price. Now MANY will argue against this point, because of the whole "screw the man, f*ck the establishment, punk snot dead" schpiel, but those people would be opposed to something like this in the first place.

I hate to sound like a jaded pessimist and I apologize for getting off topic, but out of everything I've read so far, this stuck out the most and it inspired me to write.

Plus I've been writing essays on topics in metaphysics, ethics, Nietzsche, and Spinoza nonstop for the past 3 weeks so arguing seems to be flowing freely. :cool:

I don't think thats needed. Even if labels, even vinyl labels release all their back-catalog through random online stores, all thats required is a central, text based database to link everything up. With search functions and sorted by categories. Discogs style.

You search up a label and all links to any online stores selling their music would come up. Simple and easy and not run by anyone with a particular agenda. NO POLITICS.

[SlavikSvensk]

it would be very cool. i know i'd pay $1 for mp3s...

but...practically speaking...how would labels deal with all the paperwork and credit card shizznizzle for $1 or $2 orders? i mean, with itunes, it's one bill for all the songs you buy. this one could potentially have like 14 different P.O.s for a single order...

[SlavikSvensk]

i'm exhausted and don't know if that came out coherent...am i making sense?

[TechMouse]

I dont know what cracked versions you have been using, but the ones i have used work perfectly. A crack only bypasses the registration issues and has nothing to do with the core program...
I dunno man.

These programmers are getting smarter and smarter, and I know for a fact that a lot of high end software these days relies upon copy protection which de-optimizes the code unless a valid key or dongle etc. is in place.

I'm convinced this is the case with Cubase SX 2 and upwards.

Possibly this is negligible on a high-end PC, but when you're at the lower end of the system requirements spectrum, you can really feel it.

[massplanck]

I dont know what cracked versions you have been using, but the ones i have used work perfectly. A crack only bypasses the registration issues and has nothing to do with the core program...
I dunno man.

These programmers are getting smarter and smarter, and I know for a fact that a lot of high end software these days relies upon copy protection which de-optimizes the code unless a valid key or dongle etc. is in place.

I'm convinced this is the case with Cubase SX 2 and upwards.

Possibly this is negligible on a high-end PC, but when you're at the lower end of the system requirements spectrum, you can really feel it.

I tend to agree. I cant be bothered with all the messing around anymore. I'm saving up for my legit copies of cubase + abeleton.

also. Is it possible that software companies share cracked registration numbers information amoungst themselves and give each other the go ahead to 'ruin' cracked software when the user is installing another app. For a few mates of mine this seems to have been the case when abelton suddenly stopped working and started complaining about need a correct registration key. It knew it was a cracked copy... but only after some new VST plugins were installed.

[crime]

Yeah. Thats the paradox i'm afraid. Then again you couldnt make music if you didnt have the software ( if you use software that is)

Well, as I say, I use hardware, bottom line, the way I look at it is it's no different to people copying tapes back in the day, there's no point debating what you're going to do about it when it's impossible to do anything about it.. the only thing I can think of that might actually work to some extent is to make the CDr manufacturers and manufacturers of things like final scratch, MP3 players etc to charge a levy on their products to contribute to people who are having their stuff copied (Like what happened with blank tapes in the 80s).. then what will happen is the majors will cream all this money leaving the small artists/labels with zilch.. thiings such as "databases of every techno track" just ain't going to work, who is going to compile it when there isn't much money in it? My thoughts personally over all of this is if it ever got so bad that I couldn't make ANY money out of records I would stop releasing and only play live, and play a fresh live set every time, then leave the mp3 crew to do my releasing and promoting for me.. I earn most of my money from performance anyway, so really it doesn't make much odds..

the bottom line is, you are never going to stop people downloading, so there's no point in worrying about it, if your music is really good people will buy it anyway...

[massplanck]

I dunno. Maybe we cant complain about mp3 downloads untill someone actually comes up with a decent solution where people can actually pay for them.

hmmm. what about mp3 licensing being given to online shops & downtown stores to sell music as mp3? Leave it in their hands to sort out the nitty gritty.

I dunno crime. you might have a few more quid in your pocket if it was possible to legitimately download your music from somewhere.

[TechMouse]

the only thing I can think of that might actually work to some extent is to make the CDr manufacturers and manufacturers of things like final scratch, MP3 players etc to charge a levy on their products to contribute to people who are having their stuff copied (Like what happened with blank tapes in the 80s)
They do this already.

Consumer CD-R's have a small tax on them.

Also, I think somewhere in Europe (Scandanavia possibly?) recently introduced a per-GB tax on mp3 players, which has done stupid things to the price of some units - e.g. the 40GB iPods. Which is, IMHO, dumb.

[crime]

Also, I think somewhere in Europe (Scandanavia possibly?) recently introduced a per-GB tax on mp3 players, which has done stupid things to the price of some units - e.g. the 40GB iPods. Which is, IMHO, dumb.

Why? is it dumb I mean... explain why it's dumb...

[crime]

I dunno crime. you might have a few more quid in your pocket if it was possible to legitimately download your music from somewhere.

Possibly, but legal downloads are not going to stop illegal downloads are they? As I say, if you're going to lose sleep over this issue, you'll be an insomniac for the rest of your life, cos it's not going to go away...
And as I say, if the music is strong enough, you'll sell ok, not everyone in the world downloads music.....

[gumpy green]

Also, I think somewhere in Europe (Scandanavia possibly?) recently introduced a per-GB tax on mp3 players, which has done stupid things to the price of some units - e.g. the 40GB iPods. Which is, IMHO, dumb.

Why? is it dumb I mean... explain why it's dumb...

if you were using your ipod to only put on legal albums you owned then you have the rights to the music and shouldnt be paying a anuther fee.

just make records and yall be alright.....tons of djs kicking about who luv wax and no piricy atol.

[TechMouse]

Also, I think somewhere in Europe (Scandanavia possibly?) recently introduced a per-GB tax on mp3 players, which has done stupid things to the price of some units - e.g. the 40GB iPods. Which is, IMHO, dumb.

Why? is it dumb I mean... explain why it's dumb...

Why should a 40GB iPod be subject to twice the tax of a 20GB iPod? What if I promise to only use 20GB, and use the rest of the storage to move round data files to and from work?

Also, what about other caveats... for example: if I load my iPod with only tunes which are either my own, or those of friends whose permission I have - should I be able to claim my tax back? What about mixsets, freely downloadable from the net?

On a related note - how will they guarantee me, the consumer, that my tax is going to the correct people? Why should Britney-effing-Spears get a small percentage of my tax contribution, when I doubt that (for example) Blackout Audio will get a penny. It's a stupid, impossible-to-accurately-regulate, DUMB system.

It's dumb because they're trying to force the existing outdated music business model (i.e. you give us money, we give you music in some format) onto a market which has a completely different dynamic.

The people pulling the strings at the top of the entertainment business tried this shit on with cassette decks when they came out. Courts said "no". They tried it on when VCRs came out - "It'll kill the movie industry!" they screamed. Courts said "no". They tried it on with CD writers when they became more widespread. And now that everyone and their mother has access to broadband internet and it's easy to get free mp3, they're trying to squeeze every last penny out AGAIN.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - sooner or later some bright spark who's far smarter than me will come up with a way of getting this right, and will make a shitload of money for his trouble.

[crime]

ah, I getcha, like if all your music is legit why should you pay this extra levy? fair point...

[crime]

Make records and yall be alright.....tons of djs kicking about who luv wax and no piricy atol.

well, this is what I think.. Life is somewhat easier in germany so I don't get so riled i.e. thinking I'm missing out on $$$ etc, APART from the beurocracy, trying to go legit here at the mo, it's like a scene out of the film Brasil going to the finazamt to get a tax number.. at least everything works here pretty much..

[massplanck]

I think my point is that the next generation are starting to ditch wax (dont hit me) for CD decks because then you can spin pretty much anything in the way you spin vinyl. They have also been born into the whole P2P where as most older producers\dj's think vinyl is gonna last forever or something. As for the 'its will kill the music industry' issue well yes it could if its not sorted out soon. The difference when you copied tapes back in the day was that it was a job in itself to find the person with the album & then to copy the tape. Now you have pretty much every album ever free at the click of the mouse.

Like i said i got riled over this after a DJ told me he burns latest releases from P2P to CD and then plays them out. This is the way the kids are starting to do things unfortunatley. As for people handing each other Gbs and Gbs of stuff... thats a bit more than just 'copying a tape'.

I dunno. Live performances & merchandising seems to the sure fire way to bring in a bit of cash. Doesnt mean the music shouldnt either though.

How is WARPS online mp3\album download thingy doing (second time i have asked this) . Its Seems like a good model for things.

[SlavikSvensk]

bottom line is...PAY FOR YOUR MUSIC, KEEP TECHNO ALIVE!

[Joseph Isaac]

I don't think thats needed. Even if labels, even vinyl labels release all their back-catalog through random online stores, all thats required is a central, text based database to link everything up. With search functions and sorted by categories. Discogs style.

You search up a label and all links to any online stores selling their music would come up. Simple and easy and not run by anyone with a particular agenda. NO POLITICS.

Hmm sounds interesting. However, the streamlining of backed catalogs of thousands of labels into a single entity is overlooked with this approach. I'm not saying it wouldn't work, just pointing out some problems with it.

Massplanck suggested a single entity that has the database of all the music. If I understand you correctly, the music will be spread out amongst multiple online "mp3 stores" where you go a "main" text-based site to search for whatever track/catalog and it returns results from the number of mp3 stores where the catalogs/tracks are available with urls linked to the sites. That seems okay, but it for

1) its not in reference to what massplanck suggested and

2) there still exists a facet of control/power meaning someone/some entity will still have to develop the text-based site and create simple search functions or license searching from google . This still falls under the problem of financing and secondly, if it is something that isn't profitable or even sustainable, it may difficult to find someone who is willing to devote daily upkeep of such a site (open source maybe?, nah too many problems with that).

3) I was discussing an "itunes" style site and what problems would arise from it. The concept was to have a massive database of nearly all backstock and current stock of underground techno. There are advantages to this approach for all hindrances of the aforementioned model are minimized such as the payment system...who gets paid? How much? How are they paid? Who takes care of the licensing? If I understand your approach correctly then it seems each individual website that has the tracks/catalogs would have to handle this on their own. If there are 10+ sites, then this could create a number of financial and communication barriers especially with artists and labels getting paid.

I'm not bashing your idea, but i have been thinking about doing something like this for quite some time and it seems terribly difficult...

Thoughts?

[SlavikSvensk]

hmm...like gemm for mp3s...but i still think there is a serious problem when it comes to accounting. how are all the little labels and stores going to process tons and tons of orders for $1 tracks? for little labels, profit margins might need to be a but higher...

[ndamico]

as an artist you could be safe about it .......release only cd's that are mixed.........and all unmixed tracks on vinyl.....if some asshole wants to mix a MP3 ripped from vinyl than thats his lack of style and need for sound quality.....(no offense if any of you do). I personally am not satisfied with the sound quality of cd's and am still hoping that a more than stereo, higher freqeuncy/bitrate medium would come out....and be accepted.
I just recently built a studio with a friend and we went all legal...which I am proud of. I have no problem with cracked software ...just to try something. But I hate to say it ....not a soul is gonna install my legal software .....and I rarely lend legal CD's to people ....cause most poeple steal like there's no tomorrow..........even starving artists......
Hey man/woman ...you got the itch and not the cash ....by all means do what you need to do to make some choons........but for god sakes have respect for yourself .....your peers ...and the music ....and pay the people that make it possible for you.

[massplanck]

:clap:

a man wth passion.

[massplanck]

I know cataloging every single techno track ever released would be a littel bit too much but..

maybe we should just wipe the slate clean and figure out how little techno labels can start start pulling together to sell mp3's under some sort of umbrella.

You cant complain about people dowloading stolen music if the only way to download it is by stealing if you know what i mean.

[crime]

How is WARPS online mp3\album download thingy doing (second time i have asked this) . Its Seems like a good model for things.

Bleep.com?
Not sure, probably ok I would have thought, I mean it must generate some revenue, but I would imagine it's an older audience that are interested in warp, so are maybe more respectful ofpaying for stuff... as I say though you can come up with this way and that way to get around the problem, but the bottom line is it's never going to stop....

[TechMouse]

as an artist you could be safe about it .......release only cd's that are mixed.........
Currently, the Breaks scene is getting a lot of DJs (particularly in Spain) cutting tunes out of mixes and re-ediing the beginning and end.

True, it would be a bit more difficult with Techno, but still - not foolproof.

[sash]

howdy.

I dunno. Is there an ethical argument against someone who downloads hideous amounts of music and then plays these track out on CD decks the whole time & proclaiming they are a great dj with an interest in the scene?



Last week i had a mix at this club and noticed all the residents were mixin downloaded mp3's.
I looked at my box of vinyl then their case of cd's and thought man ive spent so much time and $ collecting these tunes, and these dudes have probably spent f**k all time downlading all the latest tracks for the cost of the blank disks.

It bothered me, so i asked one of the dudes why he steals all his music. His reply was something like "well i don't do this seriously. It's just a hobby and a bit of fun. If i was serious id love to get into vinyl but at the moment i just cant afford it". Even though he's 'not serious' he is the resident dj collecting a few hundred $ each night + he's a qualified electrician so $ really isn't an issue (gotta pay off that jet ski i guess.....".

The other thing that bothered me was that much of their stolen music was then imported to programs like ableton where they pre mixed fx tricks then burnt to disk. This sucked cuz while they're struggling to match their beats, some pre mixed fx trick is goin off and everyone thinks the dj's r doin it live. But on the flip side i felt like i gotta push myself harder and create my own build ups (like Adam Beyer ;) )

i gotta say though when i come up against a dj with cd's, i feel a sense of pride in a odd kinda weird way.

[Sunil]

Last week i had a mix at this club and noticed all the residents were mixin downloaded mp3's.
I looked at my box of vinyl then their case of cd's and thought man ive spent so much time and $ collecting these tunes, and these dudes have probably spent f**k all time downlading all the latest tracks for the cost of the blank disks.

It bothered me, so i asked one of the dudes why he steals all his music. His reply was something like "well i don't do this seriously. It's just a hobby and a bit of fun. If i was serious id love to get into vinyl but at the moment i just cant afford it". Even though he's 'not serious' he is the resident dj collecting a few hundred $ each night + he's a qualified electrician so $ really isn't an issue (gotta pay off that jet ski i guess.....".

The other thing that bothered me was that much of their stolen music was then imported to programs like ableton where they pre mixed fx tricks then burnt to disk. This sucked cuz while they're struggling to match their beats, some pre mixed fx trick is goin off and everyone thinks the dj's r doin it live. But on the flip side i felt like i gotta push myself harder and create my own build ups (like Adam Beyer ;) )

i gotta say though when i come up against a dj with cd's, i feel a sense of pride in a odd kinda weird way.

These guys you mention don't deserve to be playing in a club. Club managers/promoters should be wide to these people and have them ****ed out. Although I guess many mightn't care about it.

What annoys me is the guys that'll do their research in the shop, then go home and download the tracks, or the others that will actually copy down the names to a piece of paper as they are listening. It doesn't happen often at our shop, next time it does though there'll be trouble :rambo:

[sash]

[quote="Sunil"] Club managers/promoters should be wide to these people and have them **** out. Although I guess many mightn't care about it.

quote]

The pressure of owning a club must b intense i assume. I don't think most managers/ promoters couldn't give a toss about illegal music being played at their clubs as long as the 'right' music is being played.

[Sunil]

The pressure of owning a club must b intense i assume. I don't think most managers/ promoters couldn't give a toss about illegal music being played at their clubs as long as the 'right' music is being played.

Exactly.

It's a shame djs such as these are employed though. Getting paid to steal from the scene basically. **** them.

[MARKEG]

howdy.

I dunno. Is there an ethical argument against someone who downloads hideous amounts of music and then plays these track out on CD decks the whole time & proclaiming they are a great dj with an interest in the scene?



Last week i had a mix at this club and noticed all the residents were mixin downloaded mp3's.
I looked at my box of vinyl then their case of cd's and thought man ive spent so much time and $ collecting these tunes, and these dudes have probably spent f**k all time downlading all the latest tracks for the cost of the blank disks.

It bothered me, so i asked one of the dudes why he steals all his music. His reply was something like "well i don't do this seriously. It's just a hobby and a bit of fun. If i was serious id love to get into vinyl but at the moment i just cant afford it". Even though he's 'not serious' he is the resident dj collecting a few hundred $ each night + he's a qualified electrician so $ really isn't an issue (gotta pay off that jet ski i guess.....".

The other thing that bothered me was that much of their stolen music was then imported to programs like ableton where they pre mixed fx tricks then burnt to disk. This sucked cuz while they're struggling to match their beats, some pre mixed fx trick is goin off and everyone thinks the dj's r doin it live. But on the flip side i felt like i gotta push myself harder and create my own build ups (like Adam Beyer ;) )

i gotta say though when i come up against a dj with cd's, i feel a sense of pride in a odd kinda weird way.

honestly mate don't worry about it. these guys will be in and out like fashion. dont' blame ableton, don't blame MP3's. ANYONE CANN BEATMATCH. it's not about this, it's about programming, it's about dropping the right sound at the right moment. i play 100% vinyl still when i play out, but let me on ableton for an hour and do the same thing and I WOULD get the same response. why? it's not ableton. it's the way you portray your music, the passion you show and the way you present your sound. i remember when ppl looked down their noses at CD's and then now they're everywhere.

technology doesn't scare me, but it scares too many ppl, even though they dont admit it. so they slag it. but SKILL and DEVOTION and PASSION shines through 100% of the time in music. DON T even worry about it. use it for what it is if you think it will improve your sound, but don't worry about it.



:twisted:

[man_d]

Last week i had a mix at this club and noticed all the residents were mixin downloaded mp3's.
I looked at my box of vinyl then their case of cd's and thought man ive spent so much time and $ collecting these tunes, and these dudes have probably spent f**k all time downlading all the latest tracks for the cost of the blank disks.

It bothered me, so i asked one of the dudes why he steals all his music. His reply was something like "well i don't do this seriously. It's just a hobby and a bit of fun. If i was serious id love to get into vinyl but at the moment i just cant afford it". Even though he's 'not serious' he is the resident dj collecting a few hundred $ each night + he's a qualified electrician so $ really isn't an issue (gotta pay off that jet ski i guess.....".

i gotta say though when i come up against a dj with cd's, i feel a sense of pride in a odd kinda weird way.

I know you said that bloke fessed up about not paying for those tunes but I'm quite surprised that people seem to be immediately assuming they've nicked them from a p2p network.

My other half always has loads of tunes with him on cd when he's playing somewhere. Never occured to me that anyone would think the tracks were stolen, cos they're not. The decks and mixer are hooked into the Mac so he can play a record through and record it onto the hard drive, then burn it onto cd. I don't think there's anything wrong with doing that, but would you assume the tracks weren't paid for, rather than something he bought and put into a different format? Weird, I'd never thought might look like that's what he's done.

He does it so he's got more stuff he can play without giving himself a hernia carrying tons of vinyl about. I know another dj who does the same thing so he can mix a tune from one side into the track on the flipside without having to carry two copies of the same record about.

I never got into p2p sharing, mainly because you couldn't do it on a Mac. Napster didn't work and it all seemed a big too much trouble if you ever *did* manage to find anything to then download it on dialup!

[lunatrick]

I don't believe the practise is that widespread - how many people are going to bother recording a record, so they can give it away for nothing on p2p? not that many surely in techno terms, as stated above it would be more likely people recording cd's for their own use, to save carrying around the vinyl. If CD seems the way to go, then maybe the small labels should just start selling cd singles? I realise this will push up their manufacturing costs tho.... Personally I rip my cd's I've bought to my computer just for ease of listening,
but one thing that nobody on here has mentioned is the effect of p2p has had on the music buying public's appetite.....it has increased it. Music sales in the uk in 2004 were the largest recorded in history, now I know this doesn't necessarily translate into sales for small labels around these parts, and you could argue that the mainstream artists are just selling more copies cheaper...............but it proves a point - the more music people have (illegal or not) the more they want, remember video didn't kill the cinema - it re-invented it.

I'm sure we will soon see labels selling downloads, some have already started - truelove, trackitdown and no doubt lots of others. Paying a quid for a banging track is a bargain, add 20 pence for a blank cd and voila! and is probably more profitable for the label who only a make a quid or two on a 12", before long everybody will be offering this service or getting another company to offer it for them, it's inevitable, it's just that there will be a period of instability as the market settles down, but to steal tracks at that price is taking the p*ss, I'd rather have a top quality guaranteed to play to the end track and pay my money.

Personally though I would rather watch somebody mix on a pair of decks (vinyl or CD) than watch a laptop set.....'Hey dude check out my mouse action...' :lol: :lol: it's not very rock and roll is it?

[dirty_bass]

honestly mate don't worry about it. these guys will be in and out like fashion. dont' blame ableton, don't blame MP3's. ANYONE CANN BEATMATCH. it's not about this, it's about programming, it's about dropping the right sound at the right moment. i play 100% vinyl still when i play out, but let me on ableton for an hour and do the same thing and I WOULD get the same response. why? it's not ableton. it's the way you portray your music, the passion you show and the way you present your sound. i remember when ppl looked down their noses at CD's and then now they're everywhere.

technology doesn't scare me, but it scares too many ppl, even though they dont admit it. so they slag it. but SKILL and DEVOTION and PASSION shines through 100% of the time in music. DON T even worry about it. use it for what it is if you think it will improve your sound, but don't worry about it.



:twisted:


That post is so on point you could prick yourself with it.
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[dirty_bass]

I don't believe the practise is that widespread - how many people are going to bother recording a record, so they can give it away for nothing on p2p?

Pick a new techno release
wait about a week
and search on soulseek
you`ll find it

[lunatrick]

I don't believe the practise is that widespread - how many people are going to bother recording a record, so they can give it away for nothing on p2p?

Pick a new techno release
wait about a week
and search on soulseek
you`ll find it

must admit I've never done it - and I'm suprised - mostly use soulseek for mixes..there's some sad and wierd people out there.............

[djfurness]

i buy absolute shedloads of vinyl and i do use the odd cd as well....mainly for tunes i havent been able to buy for whatever reason....its no argument i suppose.....but for every roni size track ive downloaded....theres 3 records of his in my box.....its impossible to be able to afford to buy every type of music i like to listen to.....but i do try and balance it out and i contribute as much as i can back into the scenes i listen to....if i get paid £800 in a month....guarenteed £200 of it goes on vinyl....the rest on rent etc....i cant actually contribute more....
again though i mainly use cds for classic that are unavailable to buy anymore and for tunes that have been available for download for free (theres plenty about on artists sites etc!)

[RDR]

SKILL and DEVOTION and PASSION shines through 100% of the time in music. DON T even worry about it. use it for what it is if you think it will improve your sound, but don't worry about it.:

:clap:

Thats EXACTLY the way i view it.

there aint no plug in for passion or devotion. word.

for my 2p, there isnt a substitute for enjoying yourself behind a pair of decks. screw three decks, screw technical sasha maven style innovation i still prefer to see someone play who ENJOYS what they do.

As for the MP3 issue, im in the camp that says it doesnt matter what format you play in , if you can make it yours then its yours. Yes - style matters, content matters, programming i totally agree is a beast!.

I love vinyl - the warmth is perfect, fat and in perfect harmony with the human ear.

long live vinyl - although hoping it will... im not sure.

I look at things like this - music is eternal. recorded music has really only been around for the last 100 yrs or so. of that 100 years it really is only in the last 20 years that its been available to the common or poor person. music delivery is changing... the way that people listen and pay for music is changing.

im not in the know enough to see what the result will be, but im pretty sure that the DJ will change - we have to - change = motion.

i got more to add, but i'dlike to hear what others have to say.

[SlavikSvensk]

technology changes things, though it's not necessarily good or bad, just different.

there's room for people spinning vinyl AND ableton sets.

why should there only be room for one?

[dan the acid man]

honestly mate don't worry about it. these guys will be in and out like fashion. dont' blame ableton, don't blame MP3's. ANYONE CANN BEATMATCH. it's not about this, it's about programming, it's about dropping the right sound at the right moment. i play 100% vinyl still when i play out, but let me on ableton for an hour and do the same thing and I WOULD get the same response. why? it's not ableton. it's the way you portray your music, the passion you show and the way you present your sound. i remember when ppl looked down their noses at CD's and then now they're everywhere.

technology doesn't scare me, but it scares too many ppl, even though they dont admit it. so they slag it. but SKILL and DEVOTION and PASSION shines through 100% of the time in music. DON T even worry about it. use it for what it is if you think it will improve your sound, but don't worry about it.



:twisted:


That post is so on point you could prick yourself with it.
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:


ouch, anyone got a plaster, this post says it all :clap:

[jesus]

Thing is. Its probably about time every techno track in history was put into a huge databass where people downloaded a track for say 99c. I dunno something like an underground itunes with every release ever available.

#yes!. they're doing something similar on doa, linking with some established online mp3 place .check it-
http://www.dogsonacid.com/showthread.php?s=0bad3d7f0cda6e226b5e0e622606f942& threadid=297934&perpage=20&highlight=pendulum&page number=1

maybe mark could try and hook something like this up, for the new site.

[tocsin]

This topic has come up too much for me to do another long rant about it. I have a different view than a number of people here I guess (at least those who are vocal). I'm fine with people who download my own music or others and play it out. Would I prefer it the other way? Absolutely. But, I absolutely love the advancements in technology that have been made it possible for me to be able to distribute my own music. and listen to music of others, without having to deal with the same bottom line business oriented channels of the past. For all the nay saying, MP3 and other technological advancements have pushed us forward. If techno is as dying as a number of the people who like to piss on advancements like MP3 say it is, well, MP3 and the net is one of the reasons why the industry hasn't been able to shove us into a shelf of obscurity. We no longer need the ways and channels of the past to keep us alive or accessable. We can do what we do, middle fingers blazing, without any industry suit's help or promotional pushes. Take the positives with the negatives and realise we have a good thing.

[Komplex]

www.foryourears.com seems to be well on its way with the whole online download thing and its mainly techno and breaks oriented.

I still call for the database idea that links releases to where they are available online (and physically). I would do it myself but I'm no net coding guru... The internet can be used so well for cataloging and hunting down music...

Is anyone chummy with the guys who run www.discogs.com?

They have everything in place for such a thing. It would only be a matter of taking the base code, sexing it up and changing a bit of text around. Information is contributed by label owners, shop owners and anyone who joins up then gets verified by the mods before being posted online.

Once the structure is in place, it doesn't take much to add an entry. A couple of minutes tops. It would consist of non hyped/promotional release info (such as name, tracks, date released, credits etc) and store locations/urls.

[SlavikSvensk]

This topic has come up too much for me to do another long rant about it. I have a different view than a number of people here I guess (at least those who are vocal). I'm fine with people who download my own music or others and play it out. Would I prefer it the other way? Absolutely. But, I absolutely love the advancements in technology that have been made it possible for me to be able to distribute my own music. and listen to music of others, without having to deal with the same bottom line business oriented channels of the past. For all the nay saying, MP3 and other technological advancements have pushed us forward. If techno is as dying as a number of the people who like to piss on advancements like MP3 say it is, well, MP3 and the net is one of the reasons why the industry hasn't been able to shove us into a shelf of obscurity. We no longer need the ways and channels of the past to keep us alive or accessable. We can do what we do, middle fingers blazing, without any industry suit's help or promotional pushes. Take the positives with the negatives and realise we have a good thing.

welcome back, man!

i think there are 2 issues...not sure whether you are responding to people who are against illegal downloading or against people spinning cds or whatever using mp3s.

a lot of people are against digital delivery because they are vinyl traditionalists. others, like me, don't really care about that, but just think the end user has an ethical responsibility within the techno community to pay for music to use playing live or djing unless the artist and label want to give it up for free.

[Joseph Isaac]

I know cataloging every single techno track ever released would be a littel bit too much but..

maybe we should just wipe the slate clean and figure out how little techno labels can start start pulling together to sell mp3's under some sort of umbrella.

You cant complain about people dowloading stolen music if the only way to download it is by stealing if you know what i mean.


I'm all about the pulling together method...we're all we have left. :clap:

And your last statement, EXCELLENT point! I can't agree with you more.

[Joseph Isaac]

honestly mate don't worry about it. these guys will be in and out like fashion. dont' blame ableton, don't blame MP3's. ANYONE CANN BEATMATCH. it's not about this, it's about programming, it's about dropping the right sound at the right moment. i play 100% vinyl still when i play out, but let me on ableton for an hour and do the same thing and I WOULD get the same response. why? it's not ableton. it's the way you portray your music, the passion you show and the way you present your sound. i remember when ppl looked down their noses at CD's and then now they're everywhere.

technology doesn't scare me, but it scares too many ppl, even though they dont admit it. so they slag it. but SKILL and DEVOTION and PASSION shines through 100% of the time in music. DON T even worry about it. use it for what it is if you think it will improve your sound, but don't worry about it.



:twisted:

All over it like white on rice. Well done. :clap:

[tocsin]

welcome back, man!

Thanks. I had a rreally good time out in Romania and Hungary. I met some really nice guys in Budapest. On a side note, for anyone who is in the area, there is a party they are doing with some hardcore and hard techno. Lenny Dee is spinning in Budapest for the first time in 10 years. http://gabber.kingdom.hu/kingdom.php


i think there are 2 issues...not sure whether you are responding to people who are against illegal downloading or against people spinning cds or whatever using mp3s.

a lot of people are against digital delivery because they are vinyl traditionalists. others, like me, don't really care about that, but just think the end user has an ethical responsibility within the techno community to pay for music to use playing live or djing unless the artist and label want to give it up for free.

I'm kind of talking about all of it since I think when people get stuck on laws and ethics, they make things too black or white and ignore positive greys. It is a fact that I would not have heard a number of artists' music, some who post here, if not for the ability to pirate music with something like soulseek as a result of MP3. The music just isn't for sale around where I am. Yet, with free communication systems that allow for discussion and the downloading of music, I'm aware of some good people and music which, otherwise, I would have absolutely no knowledge. The people I know who are really into the music buy what they like in the end. The hardcore pirates remind me largely of kids who dubbed and traded mixtapes in that they were never buying the vinyl anyways. Other music genres or scenes have suffered setbacks as popularity comes and goes in waves. I'm just not seeing how it's any different for techno. Thus, I find the notion of placing heavy blame on hobbyists who are actually still into a style of music to be really misguided. The majority of people are not usually inclined to support people who they think are acting like dicks. When I see people blaming an audience for a decline in sales, and using examples here and there of some unknown and unplacable DJ using pirated music to make money as a justification for some pretty heavy and *gasp* "negative" attitudes and talking towards a majority of people who are just music fans in the end, I think it's counterproductive. As for any idea as to what technology is superior and what should be used when it comes to playback, I can just ignore that. I do way too much with digital technology to really care all that much about what some people scattered across the globe on webboards would think about that if they saw me using it. It just reminds me of the "rockers" I've mentioned in other threads who used to bitch about people using a drum machine instead of a drummer.

[SlavikSvensk]

well, i have a sort of mixed opinion on downloading...i don't think it's so bad for mixes. i just think djs should pay for music used to play out as an ethical obligation to the community. there are already ways to get vinyl...juno, planetx, etc. it would be nice to have a paid online service for mp3s, like has been suggested here.

again, i think it's up to the individual to do this...

[gunjack]

mp3 killed the cd star.

[sash]

honestly mate don't worry about it. these guys will be in and out like fashion. dont' blame ableton, don't blame MP3's. ANYONE CANN BEATMATCH. it's not about this, it's about programming, it's about dropping the right sound at the right moment. i play 100% vinyl still when i play out, but let me on ableton for an hour and do the same thing and I WOULD get the same response. why? it's not ableton. it's the way you portray your music, the passion you show and the way you present your sound. i remember when ppl looked down their noses at CD's and then now they're everywhere.

technology doesn't scare me, but it scares too many ppl, even though they dont admit it. so they slag it. but SKILL and DEVOTION and PASSION shines through 100% of the time in music. DON T even worry about it. use it for what it is if you think it will improve your sound, but don't worry about it.



:twisted:

yeah i hear ya chief :-)

[Francisco Scaramanga]

I just had a thought about this, if we are going to be giving shit to people who are playing ripped off mp3's, then really we should also be giving shit to people who are buying/playing records with uncleared samples on them. And I'd be willing to bet that pretty much everyone on this board has a few tracks with samples that were never cleared. In fact, probably more than a few, as I know there are loads of techno artists and labels out there who sample, and no doubt alot of them never actually get round to sorting out permission to use a sample.

I dont really blame them, cause I've made tunes with samples in them, and I doubt I'd ever get permission to use them (some of the artists I've ripped include Micheal Jackson, Nine Inch Nails, Rose Royce, Peaches, Lyn Collins - these sort of people might get funny about it), but I still play them out, and would even go as far as to release them as bootlegs if I ever got the chance.

So what do people reckon? The way I see it, buying/playing records with uncleared samples is stealing from an artist in a similar way to downloading mp3's, yet this is probably even more common a practice than playing ripped off mp3's - so should everyone burn their User records then or what?

[gumpy green]

who would care-
say you ripped of bad by micheal jackson and did release it on a proper label and sold 500-1000 copys.

what could they really sue you for??

200 quid......so fuks

[TechMouse]

what could they really sue you for??
Damages.

[tocsin]

People in the techno industry who give a shit about piracy are just like most other people. They never cared until it affected them. It was perfectly ok to pilfer sampler after sample, pirate software for creativity purposes, sell drugs to buy gear, and use a pair of bolt cutters to use someone else's property to throw a party. Let some years pass where people can go a bit more legit, and all of a sudden it's no longer cool if they are the other guy who has to deal with punks acting like they did. I still don't think this justifies any person pirating anything, btw. But, for people who will break laws to do what they want, they have no soapbox to stand on for this issue.

[SlavikSvensk]

People in the techno industry who give a shit about piracy are just like most other people. They never cared until it affected them. It was perfectly ok to pilfer sampler after sample, pirate software for creativity purposes, sell drugs to buy gear, and use a pair of bolt cutters to use someone else's property to throw a party. Let some years pass where people can go a bit more legit, and all of a sudden it's no longer cool if they are the other guy who has to deal with punks acting like they did. I still don't think this justifies any person pirating anything, btw. But, for people who will break laws to do what they want, they have no soapbox to stand on for this issue.

well, that's a good point, but i think for me, at least, i'm not suggesting anyone be prosecuted or anything...i just think people have a responsibility to the community...maybe people have a responsibility to the makers of software...but that's another issue...

[Joseph Isaac]

People in the techno industry who give a shit about piracy are just like most other people. They never cared until it affected them. It was perfectly ok to pilfer sampler after sample, pirate software for creativity purposes, sell drugs to buy gear, and use a pair of bolt cutters to use someone else's property to throw a party. Let some years pass where people can go a bit more legit, and all of a sudden it's no longer cool if they are the other guy who has to deal with punks acting like they did. I still don't think this justifies any person pirating anything, btw. But, for people who will break laws to do what they want, they have no soapbox to stand on for this issue.

Man hitting the nail on the proverbial head is your forte! Such an excellent point. Now that many are "grown up" and/or "legit" they are calling the kettle black. I don't defend pirating of underground music either, but let's be realistic here and note the hypocrisy that exists.

As a side note, I may get totally flamed for this, but ITS MY OPINION. The major record industry conglomerates whine and produce press that they are "losing major revenue" from shared music. However, what they don't note is that their profit margins are still growing every year! Yes, this is a fact and you can research it at any of the major financial websites. ( www.bloomberg.com www.forbes.com ) In 2002 EMI said they lost something around 8-9% in CD sales, yet their profit margin was still up 13% for the year! So boo hoo to them...I feel that's what they get for forcefeeding the market (at least the American market) with a wave of factory produced boy bands and shitty rappers. Its power to the people and as long as the product sucks sales will go down anyway, which is exactly what has been documented as the major reason for the decline in sales! Not the pirated/shared music files, but there has been a shift in the quality of music being released and the public is responding by refusing to purchase it!

[gumpy green]

what could they really sue you for??
Damages.

how much cas/damage could a techno track get them......i doubt it would be worth it.

[davethedrummer]

we sampled clint eastwood
i hope he doesn't come round looking for damages
man with no name.....yikes!

[SlavikSvensk]

we sampled clint eastwood
i hope he doesn't come round looking for damages
man with no name.....yikes!

so, do you feel lucky punk?



http://www.space-debris.com/spy_eastwood_dirtyHarry_LG.jpg

[tocsin]

how much cas/damage could a techno track get them......i doubt it would be worth it.

Ask the KLF. ;)

[gumpy green]

we sampled clint eastwood
i hope he doesn't come round looking for damages
man with no name.....yikes!

lol.

klf- who sued em.???

mind you they prob made a fair bit of cash in the day...

yer average underground techno record aint gonna make that much, maybe £1000 if you real lucky, so say that was the case, then they could surely only get a max of £1000 outta ya :scratch: :scratch:
not worth worrying about IMO(if this is the case)

[crime]

I tell you what is a more damaging thing to techno than mp3s, labels that don't pay their artists...

[crime]

who would care-
say you ripped of bad by micheal jackson and did release it on a proper label and sold 500-1000 copys.

what could they really sue you for??

200 quid......so fuks

test case:
Si Begg vs The beach boys (True story)

Beach boys lawyers: hello we're representing the beach boys, and we understand you released a record with an uncleared sample from our clients, how many of this record did you actually sell?

Si Begg: oh, about 5000.

Beach boys lawyers: oh, oh, ok, we'll be in touch... click brrrrrrrrrrrr...

basically they are not interested unless there is serious money to be made i.e. a lot more than off 5000 records

[gumpy green]

just what i thought.

and even if they did go for it i doubt it would be any fee that couldnt be payed so id defo not have a problem sampling stuff.

id just be like take the 500 quid and fuk aff.....then id sell more crack and be back on top. ;) ;)

[sash]

who would care-
say you ripped of bad by micheal jackson and did release it on a proper label and sold 500-1000 copys.

what could they really sue you for??

200 quid......so fuks

test case:
Si Begg vs The beach boys (True story)

Beach boys lawyers: hello we're representing the beach boys, and we understand you released a record with an uncleared sample from our clients, how many of this record did you actually sell?

Si Begg: oh, about 5000.

Beach boys lawyers: oh, oh, ok, we'll be in touch... click brrrrrrrrrrrr...

basically they are not interested unless there is serious money to be made i.e. a lot more than off 5000 records

sweet....i'm goin straight to the video store c what i can find. Now where's that 'Warriors' DVD? :-)

[Francisco Scaramanga]

I wasnt so much thinking about samples from things like the beach boys or clint eastwood as I was thinking about people who sample other techno tracks to make their own techno tracks - think ignition technician as a prime example. They may well clear their samples I dont really know, but there are plenty of things that get released with that sort of sampling in them, that dont get cleared.

Anyway its just a thought I had, I dont really care that much, as I said I've sampled all sorts, and dont really care about clearing it, but one thing I will say is I've never sampled another techno track, all my samples come from other genres of music, and the artist will probably never know, so I dont really care.

[SlavikSvensk]

sweet....i'm goin straight to the video store c what i can find. Now where's that 'Warriors' DVD? :-)

man, that's the kind of priceless film you gots ta OWN!

[tocsin]

klf- who sued em.???

mind you they prob made a fair bit of cash in the day...

yer average underground techno record aint gonna make that much, maybe £1000 if you real lucky, so say that was the case, then they could surely only get a max of £1000 outta ya :scratch: :scratch:
not worth worrying about IMO(if this is the case)

I think the better question to ask is who HASN'T sued the KLF. ;) But, anyways, there big music lawsuit involved "What Time is Love." The offending sample that basically got another person ownership credits in the song? Some bullshit quick vocal snippets from a Wanda Dee album. She sued, settled out of court, claimed that she was "responsible for their hits" and "co-wrote the songs" and even began touring as "The KLF feat. Wanda Dee." So, there was one particular artist who didn't like getting sued and fought back in a way that every musician industry whore would envy. ABBA sued them as well and they had to destroy their recordings as a result. I'm sure you can find more if you do a search online.

Now, as for the "underground" component, how do you know if your song is going to be a hit? Or, if one is the type of person prone to bitch about people stealing one's music, why is it ok to steal from others? The answer is what I posted earlier. A good amount of techno musicians have turned into hypocrites or a sad parody of what they used to be. Then, some just jumped in with the same intentions of every other artist in the mainstream industry that wants to make a buck first and foremost. I kind of like the fact that the KLF, after sampling the shit out of so many people, often in some pretty obnoxious ways, burned a million pounds that they made through their music. There's a fun statement. And then there's people more like us who piss and moan about losing a few cents here and there when someone downloads a track they pasted together holding unlicensed slices of music belonging to other artists. "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" or something like that. ;)

[TechMouse]

I kind of like the fact that the KLF, after sampling the shit out of so many people, often in some pretty obnoxious ways, burned a million pounds that they made through their music. There's a fun statement. And then there's people more like us who piss and moan about losing a few cents here and there when someone downloads a track they pasted together holding unlicensed slices of music belonging to other artists. "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" or something like that. ;)

:clap:

[Joseph Isaac]

And then there's people more like us who piss and moan about losing a few cents here and there when someone downloads a track they pasted together holding unlicensed slices of music belonging to other artists. "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" or something like that. ;)

Awesome. :clap: