Ghost writers

[gumpy green]

heard of this in hiphop wer an mc that cant write lyrics pays someone who can to write them for them and then he mc's these over whateva beat.

now,

ive heard of this in techno where someone gets a producer along side them to write the track......then they clame its ther track.

hope this isnt too widespread in techno cos imo it sucks.

have yall heard of this happening much or is this just a rare occurance????

[TechMouse]

ive heard of this in techno where someone gets a producer along side them to write the track......then they clame its ther track.
I think it's called "getting an engineer".

I seem to remember reading a DJ Mag article a while ago with Timo Maas where he pretty much said he has three guys who write his tunes for him, and he pops his head round the door at the end of the day and says "yeah, I like that" or "no, I don't like that" etc.

Think (hope?) it's less widespread in Techno as it's less widespread and more production driven than other kinds of music.

[RDR]

heard of this in hiphop wer an mc that cant write lyrics pays someone who can to write them for them and then he mc's these over whateva beat.

now,

ive heard of this in techno where someone gets a producer along side them to write the track......then they clame its ther track.

hope this isnt too widespread in techno cos imo it sucks.

have yall heard of this happening much or is this just a rare occurance????

Worms, Can - now opened!

Yeah i've seen this happen a lot. To be fair to the people involved they did put XXXXX vs XXXXX on the track. but if you didnt know em you'd think that was truth.

But how different is it for pop artists who get given a song by their publishers to sing on stage?

There are many song writers out there who record companies would NOT want to put on stage due to their lack of appeal.. (shallow i know but im talking about overweight uglies here...) but who have MASSIVE abilities as song writers. (it also applies to folks who dont want to be in the public eye)

I dont see it being any different with hip hop. my mates a dope rap song writer... but he's a west yorkshire honkey fella. cant really see him on stage with 60 pence now, but what he writes is good.

Its an age old story in music.

[FuK-NuT]

shite state of afairs....!

[TechMouse]

Worms, Can - now opened!

Yeah i've seen this happen a lot. To be fair to the people involved they did put XXXXX vs XXXXX on the track. but if you didnt know em you'd think that was truth.

But how different is it for pop artists who get given a song by their publishers to sing on stage?

There are many song writers out there who record companies would NOT want to put on stage due to their lack of appeal.. (shallow i know but im talking about overweight uglies here...) but who have MASSIVE abilities as song writers. (it also applies to folks who dont want to be in the public eye)

I dont see it being any different with hip hop. my mates a dope rap song writer... but he's a west yorkshire honkey fella. cant really see him on stage with 60 pence now, but what he writes is good.

Its an age old story in music.

Ah, those immensely photogenic Techno people...

http://www2.uol.com.br/circuitotechno/fotos/circuito_41/IMG_4152.jpg

[RDR]

Cwoorrr! whos tha...


Oh shit. :doh:

[Heroes]

commisioned techno, hate it,

well the bee gees are still going, so to is elton john. so i gues that means bailey and leibing will be a round for a while to come.

oooooops naughty naughty someones not had enough sleep.....

[Jay Pace]

I think ghosting its fairly common.

Different genre's certainly - Goldie never engineered any of his music. It was still all his music though. Without him there would have been no creative steer.

With technology getting so advanced I think it is pretty crippling having to be a sound engineer, mixdown engineer, mastering engineer and creative producer all at once. Probably why you see so many successfull creative partnerships - each person brings something different to the table. Other people can be more objective about the results.

This is how it works for the rest of music - partnerships with shared skills creating outstanding results.

Computer produced music is insular enough as it is.

I think slating people for recognising that their skills are creative and not technical is very narrowminded.

Production should always be credited - but artistic input is more valuable.

jus my 2c

[TechMouse]

Production should always be credited - but artistic input is more valuable.
Though incredibly hard to quantify...

[RDR]

Production should always be credited - but artistic input is more valuable.
Though incredibly hard to quantify...

I have a special ruler for that.....




oh hang on, thats for something else..

[FuK-NuT]

bailey and leibing will be a round for a while to come.

.....


Bloody shocking, espesh after reading an interview where liebing was
banging on about bring a more heavy metal feel to techno....i right pal!!

;)

[The Overfiend]

commisioned techno, hate it,

well the bee gees are still going, so to is elton john. so i gues that means bailey and leibing will be a round for a while to come.

oooooops naughty naughty someones not had enough sleep.....
You mean Redhead & Wooden :shhh:

[dirty_bass]

There`s a difference between getting someone to engineer, or assist production, and just downright do it all for you.
The problem lies also with the person doing the engineering.
If you have a huge hand in what goes on then you should get co producer creit, and it`s your responsibility to get it.
If your sitting there doing everything and all the other guy is doing is going "yeah, I like that" then you are being the creative part of the deal.

Ghost writers suck. How anyone can have the Ego to claim the creativity of someone elses work is beyond me. It`s dishonest and I question these individuals whole motivation.

[TechMouse]

Ghost writers suck. How anyone can have the Ego to claim the creativity of someone elses work is beyond me. It`s dishonest and I question these individuals whole motivation.

Money?

[gumpy green]

There`s a difference between getting someone to engineer, or assist production, and just downright do it all for you.
The problem lies also with the person doing the engineering.
If you have a huge hand in what goes on then you should get co producer creit, and it`s your responsibility to get it.
If your sitting there doing everything and all the other guy is doing is going "yeah, I like that" then you are being the creative part of the deal.

Ghost writers suck. How anyone can have the Ego to claim the creativity of someone elses work is beyond me. It`s dishonest and I question these individuals whole motivation.yeh thats what i was hearing-

some folk just sit ther saying yes do this do that, i like this, and someone else is doing the producing....

mmmmmmmmmmmmm, not right imo

[TechMouse]

Perhaps "bespoke production" would be a better term.

[gumpy green]

the real reason i ask is cos i want to find someone to do that for me so i can release music and get gigs. ;)

[networker]

yeh thats what i was hearing-

some folk just sit ther saying yes do this do that, i like this, and someone else is doing the producing....

mmmmmmmmmmmmm, not right imo[/quote]

and why is it always a dj with no knowledge of the rudiments of music?
i used to hire out my studio years back to pay the rent. some guy said to me in there "can you make that 'BANGIN' sound go up"
what!!!!!? i says
turns out he wanted a buildin rollin snare drum in a break.
i should have bounced his head up the steps to the front door and said "what? like that?"
and before you say anything. NO INDUSTRIAL SECRETS WERE RELEASED TO THIS TIT

[killarava2day]

I can't understand as to how these certain producers just sit back and can accept that their creativity and experience is not being acknowledged in a public forum. Sure it might pay for the mortgage and a flash car, but respect would be far more satisfying, for me, I think...although I must admit that I dream for a BMW M5.

[networker]

I can't understand as to how these certain producers just sit back and can accept that their creativity and experience is not being acknowledged in a public forum. Sure it might pay for the mortgage and a flash car, but respect would be far more satisfying, for me, I think...although I must admit that I dream for a BMW M5.

SINK OR SWIM M8

the m3 is indeed a wicked car but you gotta admit it sounds like a bloody moped

[Sunil]

Well from once sticking up for Liebing before on this forum when people were having a pop at him, I've now noticed how little credit he deserves for the sound he apparantly developed, and you just need to listen to any Andre Walter 12" to hear it. I could imagine some of the guys we're talking about doing collabs with Eric Morillo if it got them further up that ladder, sad but true I think.

In saying this I've interviewed Liebing and Bailey and asked them about this before, and neither of them hide the fact that they use a co-producer, in fact Liebing did credit Walter as the main force of the Stigmata releases. Bailey does maintain that he has the biggest input into the tune writing, but says that Hades and Redhead are handier in the studio than him. While these ghost producers may be happy to hide in the background it's not particularly admirable that someone else is taking all the credit. That said, this is no new phenomenon in techno. Loads of producers have used engineers or co-producers in the past... DJ Hell is an obvious example.

[Jay Pace]

A film director doesn't know the ins and outs of the cutting room, post production, makeup, lighting & special FX, but will still happily take the credit for the direction. And rightly so.

A band will have lyrics, arrangement, performance & production credits.

The architect Gehry is renowned for giving people his vision without much steer how they are to achieve it.

Classical sculptors used to have workshops full of statues their apprentices worked on. And sure as eggs the apprentices were not credited with the statues they made, as they were made under someone elses direction.

Plenty of poetry and literature has been practically unreadable prior to the intervention of a talented editor. Author still takes credit for the vision though.

Vision and direction are the key features of music.

Computer music is still in its infancy compared to other art forms.

[dirty_bass]

A film director doesn't know the ins and outs of the cutting room, post production, makeup, lighting & special FX, but will still happily take the credit for the direction. And rightly so.

A band will have lyrics, arrangement, performance & production credits.

The architect Gehry is renowned for giving people his vision without much steer how they are to achieve it.

Classical sculptors used to have workshops full of statues their apprentices worked on. And sure as eggs the apprentices were not credited with the statues they made, as they were made under someone elses direction.

Plenty of poetry and literature has been practically unreadable prior to the intervention of a talented editor. Author still takes credit for the vision though.

Vision and direction are the key features of music.

Computer music is still in its infancy compared to other art forms.

So you use a ghost producer then ;)

[Sunil]

Bloody shocking, espesh after reading an interview where liebing was
banging on about bring a more heavy metal feel to techno....i right pal!!



Well, he wants all the kids that buy Slipknot CDs to buy his CD too.
And guess what his and Speedy J's forthcoming LP is called?
"Metalism".

[dirty_bass]

Bloody shocking, espesh after reading an interview where liebing was
banging on about bring a more heavy metal feel to techno....i right pal!!



Well, he wants all the kids that buy Slipknot CDs to buy his CD too.
And guess what his and Speedy J's forthcoming LP is called?
"Metalism".

Hey can anyone hear the BeeGees?

"tradgedy"

http://images.art.com/images/PRODUCTS/LARGE/10102000/10102308.jpg

[gumpy green]

Well from once sticking up for Liebing before on this forum when people were having a pop at him, I've now noticed how little credit he deserves for the sound he apparantly developed, and you just need to listen to any Andre Walter 12" to hear it. I could imagine some of the guys we're talking about doing collabs with Eric Morillo if it got them further up that ladder, sad but true I think.

In saying this I've interviewed Liebing and Bailey and asked them about this before, and neither of them hide the fact that they use a co-producer, in fact Liebing did credit Walter as the main force of the Stigmata releases. Bailey does maintain that he has the biggest input into the tune writing, but says that Hades and Redhead are handier in the studio than him. While these ghost producers may be happy to hide in the background it's not particularly admirable that someone else is taking all the credit. That said, this is no new phenomenon in techno. Loads of producers have used engineers or co-producers in the past... DJ Hell is an obvious example.
makes me wonder why they do it...

i wouldnt want my name on a track that i knew i couldnt write.....unless...... :?:

[gumpy green]

is this why soo many folks dont play live aswell????

cos they coudnt find someone that looks like them to do the work.

[FuK-NuT]

A film director doesn't know the ins and outs of the cutting room, post production, makeup, lighting & special FX, but will still happily take the credit for the direction. And rightly so.

A band will have lyrics, arrangement, performance & production credits.

The architect Gehry is renowned for giving people his vision without much steer how they are to achieve it.

Classical sculptors used to have workshops full of statues their apprentices worked on. And sure as eggs the apprentices were not credited with the statues they made, as they were made under someone elses direction.

Plenty of poetry and literature has been practically unreadable prior to the intervention of a talented editor. Author still takes credit for the vision though.

Vision and direction are the key features of music.

Computer music is still in its infancy compared to other art forms.

So you use a ghost producer then ;)

:lol:

[TechMouse]

A film director doesn't know the ins and outs of the cutting room, post production, makeup, lighting & special FX, but will still happily take the credit for the direction. And rightly so.
Direction is not cinematography, is not editing, is not CGI etc. I think most people appreciate this, and by and large people get appropriately credited on films.

Unfortunately there's a lot more mystique in music production, and so it's much easier for due credit to get handed out inappropriately. It's the same kind of mentality that allows the Britneys of this world to masquerade as "artistes" when in fact they're little more than glorified session singers.

I guess at the end of the day everybody knows exactly how much time / effort they've put into whatever they claim to have done, and they have to live with it. I know I wouldn't be happy if I'd been credited with a load of stuff that I knew in my heart of hearts was someone else's work.

[dan the acid man]

is this why soo many folks dont play live aswell????

cos they coudnt find someone that looks like them to do the work.

im going to get around that problem by getting someone to dress in a full gorilla suit :lol: :lol:

[TechMouse]

is this why soo many folks dont play live aswell????

cos they coudnt find someone that looks like them to do the work.

im going to get around that problem by getting someone to dress in a full gorilla suit :lol: :lol:

You doing jungle sets now?

(I'll get me coat...)

[Jay Pace]

So you use a ghost producer then ;)

If I did I'd want much better results ;)

Two good friends of mine fell out over this. One very talented D&B dj, the other a well established producer. They collaborated and the result was the biggest selling track the producer had ever written, released on Renegade Hardware and considered one of the best tracks of the year.

They fell out massively because the producer refused to recognise the contribution of the dj. He felt that he made the track - the technical work was his, it was him sitting in front of the computer - ergo it was all his work.

The dj knew what would work on the dancefloor and had a vision for how it should sound. Having direction made all the difference.

Said producer is know doing good stuff on planet Mu but may never see the same record sales.

Credit where credit's due.

Tricksy one.

[gumpy green]

is this why soo many folks dont play live aswell????

cos they coudnt find someone that looks like them to do the work.

im going to get around that problem by getting someone to dress in a full gorilla suit :lol: :lol:

i thought you were a little hairy but i wouldnt say you looked like a gorilla ;)

[gumpy green]

So you use a ghost producer then ;)

If I did I'd want much better results ;)

Two good friends of mine fell out over this. One very talented D&B dj, the other a well established producer. They collaborated and the result was the biggest selling track the producer had ever written, released on Renegade Hardware and considered one of the best tracks of the year.

They fell out massively because the producer refused to recognise the contribution of the dj. He felt that he made the track - the technical work was his, it was him sitting in front of the computer - ergo it was all his work.

The dj knew what would work on the dancefloor and had a vision for how it should sound. Having direction made all the difference.

Said producer is know doing good stuff on planet Mu but may never see the same record sales.

Credit where credit's due.

Tricksy one.

i see your point.....defo one to think baout but...

i can hear shit in my head that i want to put onto my track, been ravin it up for 13 or so yrs so i no what will rock the crowd on the dancefloor etc...

now i havent got the skillz to put these ideas onto a track.

so i have 2 choices........1 get a ghost writer or this could be a little hard work and effort......LEARN HOW TO USE ABLETON OR WHATEVA HARWARE SOFTWARE i want and do it myself..

1 way stands out to be much more satisfying to myself.

[dan the acid man]

:oops: :oops: :lol:
actually thinking about this, i wonder if theres big producers out there producing rock albums etc, who dont do any engineering, as most of these kind of albums are engineered by other people, and when you see those making of documentarys, you vey rarely see the producers twiddling any knobs

[TechMouse]

:oops: :oops: :lol:
actually thinking about this, i wonder if theres big producers out there producing rock albums etc, who dont do any engineering, as most of these kind of albums are engineered by other people, and when you see those making of documentarys, you vey rarely see the producers twiddling any knobs
Producing in a "rock" context is different to producing in an electronic context.

90% of the work is positioning mics and eliciting a good performance from musicians.

[Jimfish]

I used to do this a lot a few years ago and have probably more than a dozen records that i wrote floating about with other peoples names on them. I have to say that all the people who ever came to do this were complete tools and didnt have a clue about what is needed to make a sweet track. Most of them were just cheesy knobs wanting to inflate thier egos a little. I am sure there are some examples where this is not true, but generally i have found that the kind of people who want to 'use an engineer' (in the dance music sense) are more often than not, complete ****ing retards..

Hey then there is 'ghost djing' - apparently dave pierce (the fat trance guy) used to have someone back stage doing the mixing while he stood out the front soakin' up the love and doing the whole jesus on the cross bit while pretending to mix occasionally.. ****ing makes my stomach turn

[TechMouse]

Hey then there is 'ghost djing' - apparently dave pierce (the fat trance guy) used to have someone back stage doing the mixing while he stood out the front soakin' up the love and doing the whole jesus on the cross bit while pretending to mix occasionally.. **** makes my stomach turn
Does anyone else find that borderline offensive?

[gumpy green]

I used to do this a lot a few years ago and have probably more than a dozen records that i wrote floating about with other peoples names on them. I have to say that all the people who ever came to do this were complete tools and didnt have a clue about what is needed to make a sweet track. Most of them were just cheesy knobs wanting to inflate thier egos a little. I am sure there are some examples where this is not true, but generally i have found that the kind of people who want to 'use an engineer' (in the dance music sense) are more often than not, complete **** retards..

Hey then there is 'ghost djing' - apparently dave pierce (the fat trance guy) used to have someone back stage doing the mixing while he stood out the front soakin' up the love and doing the whole jesus on the cross bit while pretending to mix occasionally.. **** makes my stomach turn

agree...

that ghost djing is just lame utter lame......im only glad its getting spun to folks that prob dont care

[orac]

Hey then there is 'ghost djing' - apparently dave pierce (the fat trance guy) used to have someone back stage doing the mixing while he stood out the front soakin' up the love and doing the whole jesus on the cross bit while pretending to mix occasionally.. **** makes my stomach turn

don't know him but...hahaha what a bitch! i'm angry when i'm reading about people like this, wtf is this, yeah c'mon let's destroy techno lol

[TechMouse]

Hey then there is 'ghost djing' - apparently dave pierce (the fat trance guy) used to have someone back stage doing the mixing while he stood out the front soakin' up the love and doing the whole jesus on the cross bit while pretending to mix occasionally.. **** makes my stomach turn

don't know him but...hahaha what a bitch! i'm angry when i'm reading about people like this, wtf is this, yeah c'mon let's destroy techno lol

Well, I hardly think "the tw*t in the hat" constitues Techno, but I see your point.

[Jimfish]

mind boggling aint it.. i dont know if he still does it or not.. the guy who used to be his ghost dj that i met said he stopped around mid 90s - not sure if he got a new one or not, after allmost 20 years at it must have finally learned to mix you would think

[Sunil]

I used to do this a lot a few years ago and have probably more than a dozen records that i wrote floating about with other peoples names on them. I have to say that all the people who ever came to do this were complete tools and didnt have a clue about what is needed to make a sweet track. Most of them were just cheesy knobs wanting to inflate thier egos a little. I am sure there are some examples where this is not true, but generally i have found that the kind of people who want to 'use an engineer' (in the dance music sense) are more often than not, complete **** retards..


Yeah, there are many people that think they just need a day or two in the studio (without ever producing before) and suddenly they'll have their first release ready. I think this probably goes on a lot.

[Traxx]

So you use a ghost producer then ;)

If I did I'd want much better results ;)

Two good friends of mine fell out over this. One very talented D&B dj, the other a well established producer. They collaborated and the result was the biggest selling track the producer had ever written, released on Renegade Hardware and considered one of the best tracks of the year.



What was the tune?

[Jay Pace]

now i havent got the skillz to put these ideas onto a track.

so i have 2 choices........1 get a ghost writer or this could be a little hard work and effort......LEARN HOW TO USE ABLETON OR WHATEVA HARWARE SOFTWARE i want and do it myself..

1 way stands out to be much more satisfying to myself.

I love making music. I love it for the love of making it.

Trouble is, it isn't all that good. Learning ableton or whateva is the tip of a very big iceberg. People dedicate their lives to mastering sound design and you need to recognise that you will never be even nearly as good as they are. By comparison your your music will always sound bad. Production is a fine art.

You can however hire these people to provide the technical nouse you lack. Or, if you are pushed for time, and skint - try and befriend them.

Would anyone like to see my puppies? I have sweeties too...

[Jay Pace]

So you use a ghost producer then ;)

If I did I'd want much better results ;)

Two good friends of mine fell out over this. One very talented D&B dj, the other a well established producer. They collaborated and the result was the biggest selling track the producer had ever written, released on Renegade Hardware and considered one of the best tracks of the year.



What was the tune?

Warehouse

[gumpy green]

I used to do this a lot a few years ago and have probably more than a dozen records that i wrote floating about with other peoples names on them. I have to say that all the people who ever came to do this were complete tools and didnt have a clue about what is needed to make a sweet track. Most of them were just cheesy knobs wanting to inflate thier egos a little. I am sure there are some examples where this is not true, but generally i have found that the kind of people who want to 'use an engineer' (in the dance music sense) are more often than not, complete **** retards..


Yeah, there are many people that think they just need a day or two in the studio (without ever producing before) and suddenly they'll have their first release ready. I think this probably goes on a lot.

aye right...ive been @ it for a few hrs and still havent got anything near where i would want to release.....

[Sunil]

So you use a ghost producer then ;)

If I did I'd want much better results ;)

Two good friends of mine fell out over this. One very talented D&B dj, the other a well established producer. They collaborated and the result was the biggest selling track the producer had ever written, released on Renegade Hardware and considered one of the best tracks of the year.



What was the tune?

Warehouse


That well established producer's new album is great ;)

[Traxx]

Indeed.

[Jay Pace]

I know. I really hope it does well.

His live sets are cracking too.

*shameless plug*

Tim Exile - Brighton - September 8th - BlackBox

[Sunil]

I know. I really hope it does well.

His live sets are cracking too.

*shameless plug*

Tim Exile - Brighton - September 8th - BlackBox

I hope they start pressing all of the Planet Mu stuff on vinyl instead of some CD only releases :rambo:

He's pretty much at the top of my list of people to see, that EP on Mosquito too, was a killer.

[dan the acid man]

mind boggling aint it.. i dont know if he still does it or not.. the guy who used to be his ghost dj that i met said he stopped around mid 90s - not sure if he got a new one or not, after allmost 20 years at it must have finally learned to mix you would think

well i turned on the radio last year to hear him attempting to mix live and it didnt go too well :lol:

[gumpy green]

mind boggling aint it.. i dont know if he still does it or not.. the guy who used to be his ghost dj that i met said he stopped around mid 90s - not sure if he got a new one or not, after allmost 20 years at it must have finally learned to mix you would think

well i turned on the radio last year to hear him attempting to mix live and it didnt go too well :lol:

wish folks would just fuk these cunts off and let talented folks do it.

too many times ive saw shite djs(biggish names) when id rather see some one decent to the job...known or unkown.

techno is a bit too like fashion sumtimes for me liking. Name over quality.

[Traxx]

I hope they start pressing all of the Planet Mu stuff on vinyl instead of some CD only releases :rambo:


Big purple bad boy takes the piddle :rambo:

He's on in liverpool @ jasbof on sept 3rd...

[loopdon]

I know. I really hope it does well.

His live sets are cracking too.

*shameless plug*

Tim Exile - Brighton - September 8th - BlackBox

i wanted to ask: "exile?"

coz there's a q&a with him going on at dogsonacid.com atm...

[AcidTrash]

nothing wrong with it at all. some of the best music I have is "commissioned" music. Some producers left to their own devices would just keep churning out the same stuff for ages and need to be pushed out of that rut occaisionally. Fresh ideas with a proven production ethos makes for better music.