All label owners please read

[MARKEG]

This is one for all the label owners who post on this site.

All these vinyl/MP3 debates recently really have led us no-where. And I think this is because none of these formats are 100% keeping the dance/electronic scene in business.

So here's my thoughts, based upon something I was reading today. The club scene is just a healthy as it always was, people are just as enthusiastic about music as they always were. CDJ's are now replacing decks as centre spot in the clubs. DJ's are gradually swapping over. It really is inevitable. Vinyl is making no money, but neither are Mp3's. Yet DJ's are burning off their collections onto CD, burning from mp3 to CD. Record labels are now promo'ing off CD. So what's the common factor here? That's right - the CD.

So tell me why us, as record labels are not making CD's? Why can we not change? There's obviously a demand, and like I say, nothing has drastically changed in the club scene. The market is there, the CD's arent. Well the answer to this is easy. Record shops don't buy them in because a) labels don't make them b) they'd have to have shelves put in and CD listening posts (cost) c) The very name 'Record shop' means it's a record shop and this means more reluctance to change d) 6,000 other reasons.

OK, so tell me this. If there was a way where you could send your finished wav to a shop, a one stop shop for techno music, THEY press it up, THEY sell it and you get a split of the profit, would you do it? Of course you would. You're going to bypass the distribution companies and begin on the path to keeping a physical product but changing with the times. Now I believe the demand is there. So I'm going to put my money where my mouth is here. We have a site of 7000 members. Why the hell don't all the labels on here sell CD's on the site. Oh that's right - there is no shop on here. WRONG.

The new site is done. All I have to do is add the new Blackout Audio logo to the top. It's a full-on Portal and there's a shop in there too. BINGO.

You send me the wavs and the artwork, I sell them on the site, We work out a deal. The more labels I can get interested in this, the cheaper the pressing will be. If we can turn this new shop on the new site into a one stop shop for techno music on CD and it is known as such, I really think we can turn this whole problem around for alot of labels out there.

I don't know many other techno sites with this many members and a shop attached. It seems the perfect solution. If the record shops and distributors wont change, we have to.

Let me know your thoughts on this here, and PM me if you're seriously interested. I will look into costings as soon as I know there's enough labels that want to do this. Let's keep it to established labels for now or ones that have got at least 5 releases under their belts, then we can expand and take this perhaps to the stage where we're at last giving the up/coming talent a way to start a label. Look, let's give it a shot, even if we all only try it with one release at first and a run of let's say 100 each.

I'm also interested in hearing from any member in the UK that would want to get involved in the shop side of this ie processing the orders, sending out etc. You'd obviously get paid for it too and you never know how this all may end up :) If we all club together, I know we can make a difference here.

Let me know. :)

[Jay Sanders]

Brilliant Idea if you ask me Mark... always thinking of the future you are mate... it deffinately makes the difference!!

[Jay Sanders]

I just realised aswell... a load of House lables have been selling CD's for well over a year or so now, Labels like Subliminal and Defected..... I know that House is more Comercial and there is a lot more money to be made.... But hey, it must be working!!

Saves having to buy the Vinyl and then burn it all on to CD if you prefer that format.

[jon connor]

:clap: :clap: :clap: fairdooze ;) would be cool man.

[dan the acid man]

sounds like a plan

http://www.legendarytv.com/the_a-team/images/George_Peppard_hannibal_2.jpg

[LOCKED]

Really like the idea , but surely , all that it would take is one asshole to buy a cd , stick it on soulseek or whateva , then everyone would download it for free ? Or am i missing somat ?

[dan the acid man]

Really like the idea , but surely , all that it would take is one asshole to buy a cd , stick it on soulseek or whateva , then everyone would download it for free ? Or am i missing somat ?

its happening now, so i dont really see the difference to be honest.

[acidsaturation]

I guess it's easier to rip from a CD and stuck it up on a fileshare, but yeah, it does happen - it's inevitable, but if we worried about that too much no one'd release anything.

I think it's a good idea and should get tunes out to more people.

And if it does take off enough so that the name and idea gets recognised that upcoming talent can start getting stuff out by it, and people will notice them, trust the quality 'cos its got blackout as a name behind the distro then even better.

Hope this takes off!

[Mindful]

cool

[Joseph Isaac]

a) labels don't make them



Not true...I'm already one step ahead.

Check it:

www.modernrecordingcompany.com

Here I have a CD in finished form, mastered, shrinkwrapped, with opening jewel case and slick artwork. I'm only selling them for a whopping $7 (plus S&H) which is cheaper than most EPs! There are 12 tracks on there, 4 EPs worth of music, which will eventually be put out on vinyl. So if you do the math, that's 4 EPs x $10 USD = $40 USD for 4 records, but is only $7 on CD. I would prefer to do it all on CD, but there are still many who are vinyl elitists and I want to cater to them as well so for that I plan on doing short runs on vinyl.

I have distribution through Complete in NYC, but that's only for the vinyl (for now). I am distributing these myself and have done fairly well so far. Also, I believe with a more professional looking package (as opposed to a white label with an artist most have never heard of) more people will be prone to check it out. If anything its my was of advancing promotion for the vinyl itself.

There are drawbacks to this, mainly that there is no guarantee of the return on the CDs, but with multiple CD duplicators out there (at least in the States), the prices become cheaper than 100-150 white labels.

I believe the DIY method MUST be reclaimed by musicians and label owners alike. Some new method of promoting quality music must be arranged. I feel strongly that your store on BOA will work, but in the meantime I must do what I can on my own to promote my labels...

[jon connor]

sounds like a plan

http://www.legendarytv.com/the_a-team/images/George_Peppard_hannibal_2.jpg

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

:clap: :clap: :clap:

[Ritzi Lee]

it looks to me like the early idea of a record pool with a member list and a contribution price.

[audioinjection]

i think its a good idea and im surprised not many people have jumped on this already

i'd like to see how this works out

[MARKEG]

if i'm being honest, i think the reason why it's not happened is the distro's are all saying 'no we can't sell cd's', presicely because of the reasons why record shops wont/can't shift over.

you need a customer base to sell cd's. and a way of listening to them before buying. and you need to see them all neatly laid out. what better way than to start to sell your cd's on the net to a customer base of 7,000 people. after word spreads I'm sure everyone will know about it who needs to know. I'll even promote the hell out of this in the press, cause this is one area i totally understand.

we're all in a strong position here. rather than just talking all day long about the state of techno or which tracks we love, we all need to be doing something.

the new site has a store, a radio, an event calender, hell, there's shit loads on it. not just things that labels owners can be doing, but also things that joe bloggs at home can be doing to get more involved in the techno scene. anyway, you'll see.

oh and before someone says it, there may be issues here with distributors if you have p+d. well 1st of all ask them what the position is on this and if it's a no do, we create a purely cd label 'from the makers of xxx'. although you must be established or a label that has got a little bit of a rapor. we want to give this the best kick start we can. remember, if it works we can then get totally new labels involved later.

meanwhile i was also looking into cd burners - print them ourselves to get the costs right down. can someone answer me a question? is there a cd burner out there that prints to shop style cd's rather than the green backed cd-r crappy things? preferably one that does in bulk (perhaps 20 a time or something).

[dan the acid man]

also, i can see alot of people wanting to buy both cd's and vinyl, i know i would

[MARKEG]

well yeah. the key is to keep the quality control. sort if like an already a+r'ed shop if you get me. if there's labels out there that want to sell records in the shop too, my idea was for them to have an admin area on the shop where they can u/l mp3 snippets and graphics and when the orders come in they get an automatic email teeling them who's paid and what their address is. they then send out direct from their end, thus cutting out the distro. which means they have to sell much much less to break even. but this is the next idea. i was going to do this first but with there being such a need to do something about the cd market, i thought i'd focus on the cd project first ;)

[Dave Elyzium]

I can't see anything but success for this idea.
I think it is important like you said to start with a small group of established names and labels to start with to build a quality image. I have to confess the first thing I thought was "great I can get my tunes on this" but I have to agree that it is important to build on quality not quantity. You dont want this turning into a free for all!

Great idea Mark I really hope this work sout respect for having the sack to put the ball in motion as it were!

[Komplex]

If there was a way where you could send your finished wav to a shop, a one stop shop for techno music, THEY press it up, THEY sell it and you get a split of the profit, would you do it? Of course you would. You're going to bypass the distribution companies and begin on the path to keeping a physical product but changing with the times. Now I believe the demand is there. So I'm going to put my money where my mouth is here. We have a site of 7000 members. Why the hell don't all the labels on here sell CD's on the site. Oh that's right - there is no shop on here. WRONG.

Interesting idea. I'm a big fan of the cd and its possibilities... one thing I'm a bit iffy about is the need to have a store press them up? It's easy enough for a label to do a high quality run of cd's, much much cheaper than vinyl. And the label would know exactly how many they are getting made etc...

Also, how would the shop be able to ensure a high standard of prints/pressings and how/why would this be better (for the labels) than stocking a label's finnished product directly?

[Komplex]

well yeah. the key is to keep the quality control. sort if like an already a+r'ed shop if you get me. if there's labels out there that want to sell records in the shop too, my idea was for them to have an admin area on the shop where they can u/l mp3 snippets and graphics and when the orders come in they get an automatic email teeling them who's paid and what their address is. they then send out direct from their end, thus cutting out the distro. which means they have to sell much much less to break even. but this is the next idea. i was going to do this first but with there being such a need to do something about the cd market, i thought i'd focus on the cd project first ;)

Nevermind my previous post!

You said exactly what I was thinking, should of read the whole thread before posting :)

[jon connor]

Really like the idea , but surely , all that it would take is one asshole to buy a cd , stick it on soulseek or whateva , then everyone would download it for free ? Or am i missing somat ?


:eh: good point locked .

[TechMouse]

meanwhile i was also looking into cd burners - print them ourselves to get the costs right down. can someone answer me a question? is there a cd burner out there that prints to shop style cd's rather than the green backed cd-r crappy things? preferably one that does in bulk (perhaps 20 a time or something).

Think you'd be wanting something like this (http://www.cd-writer.com/), Mark.

[TechMouse]

Really like the idea , but surely , all that it would take is one asshole to buy a cd , stick it on soulseek or whateva , then everyone would download it for free ? Or am i missing somat ?


:eh: good point locked .

Hmmm, well, it's only marginally less effor than recording your vinyl onto the PC through a half-decent A/D converter and then doing the same...

I think the point is that if the music is available at competitive prices in an easy format then people will be more prepared to buy it.

I noticed that recent statistics published by independant researchers made the point that people who admit to illegally downloading music, on average actually spend more on legal music than people who don't download illegally... by the way.

[pablo_sonic_terrorist]

Why can't we have recordings of records, maintaining the sound and analog warmth, whilst being in a handy format?

Don't get me wrong i :love: my vinyl but if there is going to be no-one left who can afford to make it in 5 years, for the sake of underground music in the future we need to act now.

[wrong]

Everything sounds right and in theory its a very good idea (and maybe in practice too).. but am i the only person here whose every instinct is screaming NO NO NO NO... I can't explain why.. but i'm getting random words flashing through my brain, accompanied with an irrational feeling of panic:

I love everything about vinyl except maybe the price, but if everyone switched to cd's i don't think they'd be much cheaper.. what about the weight of the vinyl in your hand, the smell of a dusty box of old gems, the tradition and the history associated with vinyl, the satisfaction of pulling the disc out from a virgin inner sleeve, the gloss on the vinyl winking at you as you draw it from it's sheath, the warm crackle as you apply the needle, the horror of realising your favourite tune is scratched, and then the thrill of the hunt for a replacement, getting out of bed to play the other side.. i know , the word dinosaur will spring to mind but i ****ing hate cd's... feels like you don't actually own it for real.

come on people... hehe i know i'm not alone here


No, mark... it really is a great idea , but i'd just feel wrong to be pressing my label onto cd's,although maybe a vinyl run AND a small cd run wouldn't hurt.. i know lots of people who are into the music who just buy cd's...... but then , they usually buy mix cd's hmmmmmm . **** i'm feeling all confused now :doh:

[Dustin Zahn]

The reason I haven't done anything with CDs thus far is because I haven't found a place with prices I am happy with. For such a cheap and easy to produce medium, the bulk rates for producing CDs are still too high.

[TechMouse]

I love everything about vinyl except maybe the price, but if everyone switched to cd's i don't think they'd be much cheaper.. what about the weight of the vinyl in your hand, the smell of a dusty box of old gems, the tradition and the history associated with vinyl, the satisfaction of pulling the disc out from a virgin inner sleeve, the gloss on the vinyl winking at you as you draw it from it's sheath, the warm crackle as you apply the needle, the horror of realising your favourite tune is scratched, and then the thrill of the hunt for a replacement, getting out of bed to play the other side..
The feeling of dread when you realise your most beloved record has been scratched to buggery under your recordbox...

The general ugliness of a warped record, however it happened...

The horror of finding that your copy of "Out of Space" has developed a really nasty regular "popping" sound over the last minute or so...

The jaw-grinding sound of the needle jumping out of the groove when the decks at BluePrint get slightly more of a nudge than they should have done, and your two records spinning wildly out of control...

[Jay Pace]

Mark, I respect what you are doing but I think you are missing the point.

Its not about format. Its about content.

The main conclusion from the whole vinyl/mp3 piracy debacle was that people stopped caring as much about what format their music came on.
People were happy to listen to crappy bitrate MP3s because they were convienient, and very cheap if not free. Whilst people love vinyl, they care more about having the music thats on it. CDs are just another format. A distribution medium for the music that lives inside it.

CDs will be replaced by something else in a few years time, rendering all the CDJs redundant.

Hands up who owns a "state of the art" tape deck? Old skool 8 track?
Minidisc seperates & walkman?

Formats will always evolve, and associated technology will die with it.

The beauty of digital is that music is for the first time format independent. People can do whatever they want with it. By all means sell CDs, but sell it digitally as well. Else you run the risk of ending up right back where you started a few years down the line.

[Internal Error Records]

Im happy to see the enthusiasm and comradery of Black Out Audio. But another reality besides cds, is that the 1000 or so performing dj's on this forum can not force the sales-base into converting to cdj's.

although djs maybe lo0king at cd's, the vast majority (all of the) promoters i have seen, dont even book cd-djs' because its just another technical hastle that has gotten easy to avoid by booking a vinyl dj instead.

the hidden control of the dj industry is the event promoter.

you might get a club to buy cd-decks. good luck getting the little fish to invest in more gear.

(all respect due, the little fish are where most of my gigs come from)

[Will]

That's a good point, at least if people play mp3's off a laptop they can just take a laptop instead of a record bag, a laptop's not much hassle, but having to take or sort CD decks, a lot of people and clubs don't have them. It's a good idea catering for people into CD's, but mp3's would be better, especially for a shop on the net.

Bass heavy music are selling their stuff on mp4, I think you can only play them with itunes and they're only 128kbps, but it's an interesting idea. They only cost 99 cents per track, which isn't much at all, but it'd be pure profit and negates all the shipping hassles etc if you live in another country, which is a major advantage. And there'd be no running out/re-run malarkey!

[dan the acid man]

That's a good point, at least if people play mp3's off a laptop they can just take a laptop instead of a record bag, a laptop's not much hassle, but having to take or sort CD decks, a lot of people and clubs don't have them. It's a good idea catering for people into CD's, but mp3's would be better, especially for a shop on the net.

Bass heavy music are selling their stuff on mp4, I think you can only play them with itunes and they're only 128kbps, but it's an interesting idea. They only cost 99 cents per track, which isn't much at all, but it'd be pure profit and negates all the shipping hassles etc if you live in another country, which is a major advantage. And there'd be no running out/re-run malarkey!

well im sure people will buy cd's and rip them to mp3 themselves and play them on their laptops, id much rather do this, at least then ive got an audio cd and mp3 for my money.

like i said earlier, i will continue to buy vinyl, but i'd also like to buy a cd version of my favourite tracks too, as a good back up

[Will]

You could always burn them to cd though, probably be more cost effective for everyone involved. Plus you could get hold of them straight away and not have to worry about shipping and customs if it's from another country... I mean with vinyl, once you take postage into account I may as well catch a train to manchester and buy them from a shop, rather than over the internet.

[Komplex]

You could always burn them to cd though, probably be more cost effective for everyone involved. Plus you could get hold of them straight away and not have to worry about shipping and customs if it's from another country... I mean with vinyl, once you take postage into account I may as well catch a train to manchester and buy them from a shop, rather than over the internet.

But with the internet you've gotta take bandwidth and download time into account too. Add to that time to burn off the cd's and add to that the fact that its still mp3 and not uncompressed audio (even after you decompress it and burn it). CD is much better in this situation and you have a physical backup for when your hard drive sh!ts itself and you haven't backed up your collection. And you can have artwork, info and stuff. MP3 REALLY sucks for getting the whole idea across.

Best solution is to offer both, the customer gets to choose, the customer is always right when it comes to what they want. You can tell them what you want them to want but they can just as easily say "fuk you, I don't want your crappy music on your crapy -insert choice of media-".

[The Divide]

Its a great idea, as mentioned earlier I do think you should look into both CD's and selling online lossless audio.

[Internal Error Records]

i dunno about all this back and forth on the topic. sure its good philosophy, but its all this laptop and mp3 and mp4 and being a damn data librarian.....


being a dj is about instant gratification and rocking a party..... not about showing how you can find another use for your Information Technology degree.


drop the technology, and focus on the techno!

[Mike Wazowski]

I sure like the idea, but still have my thoughts.
I see our market divided in two: vinyl and mp3
Cd fits at the mp3 side of the market.
Then why would you create extra costs by burning cds and send them
by post if you have the possibilities of downloading the music?

I think that cds are a step in the process that has already been taken or skipped in the market from vinyl and mp3 because of the arguments mentioned above.

But as far as I know there isn't yet anything as your idea, and there is a market for it, but it's get smaller as there are more and more people get fast acces to the internet.

[wrong]

i dunno about all this back and forth on the topic. sure its good philosophy, but its all this laptop and mp3 and mp4 and being a damn data librarian.....


being a dj is about instant gratification and rocking a party..... not about showing how you can find another use for your Information Technology degree.


drop the technology, and focus on the techno!


:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[TechMouse]

drop the technology, and focus on the techno!
Right... lets see you knock together some tunes without any Technology.

That 909 can go back to the shop for a start.

In fact, lets f*ck off your 1210s as well.

Come on, I want full on acousti-Techno all the way.

What do you mean Microphone?

[Internal Error Records]

drop the technology, and focus on the techno!
Right... lets see you knock together some tunes without any Technology.

That 909 can go back to the shop for a start.

In fact, lets f*ck off your 1210s as well.

Come on, I want full on acousti-Techno all the way.

What do you mean Microphone?

easy there trigger.

i dont think i need to back up the idea that techno and technology are not the same thing.

[The Divide]

drop the technology, and focus on the techno!
Right... lets see you knock together some tunes without any Technology.

That 909 can go back to the shop for a start.

In fact, lets f*ck off your 1210s as well.

Come on, I want full on acousti-Techno all the way.

What do you mean Microphone?

To be honest I didn't much sense in that statement too. Whats the difference between a 'data library' and a box of records if at the end of the day its all about whats coming out of the speakers? Well apart from the sound of vinyl warmth (which I'm sure can be digitally recreated in an age when we can put a man on the moon)

Also, I think we should be thinking beyond mp3 now, the Internet's getting pretty fast and lossless audio will/is becoming more popular. Infact maybe somewhere down the line music will go beyond 16bit 44.1khz CD audio, well its a possibility.

But even if it doesn't setting all that aside a big bonus here for me is one simple thing. People can make music and not really give a shit about what labels going to take it up as via the www more possibilities have arisen. I'm hoping thats going to bring more positive change withing not just techno music, but all genres. Theres not enough people taking risks. Its all about 'will this sell, work on the dance floor, will someone take this up, is it an A side B side or whatever'.

As for the people worried about money as a result of piracy, well I'm sure there wasn't really any money in electronic music when it first started up and for most people there never really was. Back then it was just people passionate about music, getting a club going, etc. People should just appreciate the fact that their music is getting around which should be the main reason they got into music production in the first place.

[Internal Error Records]

my point is that this forum is a skewed demographic because everyone here is computer literate.

in the rest of the techno/dance world - - - its not shocking to see many djs at any party in particular that have not finished high school or college and just dont have the interest in 'playing' music on a laptop.

that fact is - there is an impenetrable demographic that will not budge from vinyl.

and after all that, i'll say it again - i spin vinyl because i like it. its fun. laptops are not fun.

(of course that last is my opinion. but you get my gest).

[Joseph Isaac]

that fact is - there is an impenetrable demographic that will not budge from vinyl.

and after all that, i'll say it again - i spin vinyl because i like it. its fun. laptops are not fun.

(of course that last is my opinion. but you get my gest).

Good point, but is this demographic a demographic that provides sustainability for record labels that only release vinyl? To my experience, this is not the case...

And i have a ton of fun performing on my laptop. I think Ableton is a great program.l :twisted:

[Internal Error Records]

that fact is - there is an impenetrable demographic that will not budge from vinyl.

and after all that, i'll say it again - i spin vinyl because i like it. its fun. laptops are not fun.

(of course that last is my opinion. but you get my gest).

Good point, but is this demographic a demographic that provides sustainability for record labels that only release vinyl? To my experience, this is not the case...

And i have a ton of fun performing on my laptop. I think Ableton is a great program.l :twisted:


Those attempting to 'reconcile' the two mediums into one will probably have to accept that a large segment of djs will never stop spinning vinyl.

The overall quality of vinyl will improve if all the shoddy labels think its acceptable to take the cheap way out by using mp3s. The $1,200 'decision barrier' really tests a labels commitment to a song.

For me - its vinyl or nothing. 'Vinyl or Zero'

[TechMouse]

drop the technology, and focus on the techno!
Right... lets see you knock together some tunes without any Technology.

That 909 can go back to the shop for a start.

In fact, lets f*ck off your 1210s as well.

Come on, I want full on acousti-Techno all the way.

What do you mean Microphone?

easy there trigger.

i dont think i need to back up the idea that techno and technology are not the same thing.

Agreed.

But I think you should either embrace Technology as a whole or not at all.

I cannot understand this "I like this Technolgoy for music, but I refuse to accept this other Technology, that's just not right" mentality.

People keep coming back to this again and again, but at the end of the day it's what comed out of the speakers that matters. How it gets there is academic, and I'll freely admit I'm often down the front having a nosey. But if the music was mindblowing then I'd be equally impressed whether it was a pure decks & mixer setup, a load of Korg Electribes, or someone using a laptop.... I'd certainly never sit around saying any method is superior or inferior.

[webassassin]

i dunno about all this back and forth on the topic. sure its good philosophy, but its all this laptop and mp3 and mp4 and being a damn data librarian.....


being a dj is about instant gratification and rocking a party..... not about showing how you can find another use for your Information Technology degree.


drop the technology, and focus on the techno!


took the words outta my mouth :clap:

[MARKEG]

drop the technology, and focus on the techno!
Right... lets see you knock together some tunes without any Technology.

That 909 can go back to the shop for a start.

In fact, lets f*ck off your 1210s as well.

Come on, I want full on acousti-Techno all the way.

What do you mean Microphone?

easy there trigger.

i dont think i need to back up the idea that techno and technology are not the same thing.

Agreed.

But I think you should either embrace Technology as a whole or not at all.

I cannot understand this "I like this Technolgoy for music, but I refuse to accept this other Technology, that's just not right" mentality.

People keep coming back to this again and again, but at the end of the day it's what comed out of the speakers that matters. How it gets there is academic, and I'll freely admit I'm often down the front having a nosey. But if the music was mindblowing then I'd be equally impressed whether it was a pure decks & mixer setup, a load of Korg Electribes, or someone using a laptop.... I'd certainly never sit around saying any method is superior or inferior.

guys why don't you start a new topic ;)

this would be a great topic but it's not really focusing this one is it

:)

[TechMouse]

guys why don't you start a new topic ;)

this would be a great topic but it's not really focusing this one is it

:)
On the contrary Mark, I think it's very relevant here...

Whether or not digital downloads / CDs are "acceptable" to DJs and other people in the music industry is going to play a major part in their success (or failure) as a medium. Their "acceptability" is often blighted by the fact that some people will not accept anything but vinyl as the appropriate format for their Techno to come on.

I'm all for good music at a reasonable price - whatever format it comes on.

Though it's gonna be a while before I can afford some CD decks.

[The Divide]

Check this out...

http://www.allen-heath.com/UK/news_story.asp?view=263

Looks like a step forwards

[MARKEG]

no this is a step backward man.

we need cd's. i'm adament this is the way to go.

my opinion that's all ;)

[g]

and you can't use cd decks with that because....?

[TechMouse]

and you can't use cd decks with that because....?
Err... well, you can... but only with some CD decks...

Which ultimately makes it no different to any other DJ mixer.

[Paul Zykotik]

that fact is - there is an impenetrable demographic that will not budge from vinyl.

and after all that, i'll say it again - i spin vinyl because i like it. its fun. laptops are not fun.

(of course that last is my opinion. but you get my gest).

This is the current demographic though. The CD revolution has been heralded for some time but never before has it been as widespread as it is now, and that popularity will continue to increase. Sure, a lot of the people out there now would prefer it all on vinyl, but give it another 3 or 4 years and you've got a whole new load of people into it who won't have been surrounded by the techno scene as a near-total vinyl environment. There's a good chance their expectations won't be to have the tunes they like on vinyl.

[Scott Kemix]

i think you have a choice. I will always prefer a solid chunk of vinyl to mix over a cd anyday. I think the addition of the cdj is a good thing, but just to play some unreleased stuff or stuff you cant get on vinyl anymore. Also i think the cdj's are far to flimsy to take your anger out and express yourself whilst in the mix. The format for underground music must be mostly vinyl and should stay that way

[schlongfingers]

Yes definately CDs, the sound of CD's skipping is so very techno.

[Scott Kemix]

Yes definately CDs, the sound of CD's skipping is so very techno.

?

[Jay Pace]

i think you have a choice. I will always prefer a solid chunk of vinyl to mix over a cd anyday. I think the addition of the cdj is a good thing, but just to play some unreleased stuff or stuff you cant get on vinyl anymore. Also i think the cdj's are far to flimsy to take your anger out and express yourself whilst in the mix. The format for underground music must be mostly vinyl and should stay that way

"Must" and "should" aren't going to hold back the tide mate.

I'm sorry to see it go, but its pretty much inevitable.

Get final scratch. Then you can use vinyl and play digital. Best of both stylee...

[Scott Kemix]

i think you have a choice. I will always prefer a solid chunk of vinyl to mix over a cd anyday. I think the addition of the cdj is a good thing, but just to play some unreleased stuff or stuff you cant get on vinyl anymore. Also i think the cdj's are far to flimsy to take your anger out and express yourself whilst in the mix. The format for underground music must be mostly vinyl and should stay that way

"Must" and "should" aren't going to hold back the tide mate.

I'm sorry to see it go, but its pretty much inevitable.

Get final scratch. Then you can use vinyl and play digital. Best of both stylee...

This is only my opinion, one of many,and dont think this will hold back the tide. Its not entirly gone yet though, and things like final scratch and playing mp3's is not my idea of a good quality sound

[schlongfingers]

Yes definately CDs, the sound of CD's skipping is so very techno.

?

Sorry that was unclear, I was referencing Mark EG's comment that he feels CDs are the way forward. Personally I think they are fundamentally flawed as they aren't even as durable as vinyl - they are susceptable to scratching and nothing sounds shitter than a skipping CD in a DJ set, hugely offputting both to the listeners and to the DJ.

I love digital as well as vinyl, but feel that hard disk playback of digital files is a much much more reliable method than from a disk that is susceptable to scratching, corrupting, snapping and damage from liquid.

[Scott Kemix]

Yes definately CDs, the sound of CD's skipping is so very techno.

?

Sorry that was unclear, I was referencing Mark EG's comment that he feels CDs are the way forward. Personally I think they are fundamentally flawed as they aren't even as durable as vinyl - they are susceptable to scratching and nothing sounds shitter than a skipping CD in a DJ set, hugely offputting both to the listeners and to the DJ.

I love digital as well as vinyl, but feel that hard disk playback of digital files is a much much more reliable method than from a disk that is susceptable to scratching, corrupting, snapping and damage from liquid.

totally agree, but still not feeling the 'tinny' sound that digital gives off

[schlongfingers]

In terms of comparison with CDs, the tinny sound can only be down to the soundcard or the bitrate imho

[herman]

To be honest here I think the point is being missed quite a bit here , the main reason sales are in the toilet compared to just a few years ago is almost exclusively down to the fact the genre is tied so closely to vinyl.

I.E the only people buying Techno (on the whole) is dj's because your average punter just doesn't want turntables etc at home just to play some tunes , hence the popularity of mix cd's etc (and then the subsequent collapse of that market due to the initial rush of downloading), In my opinion the answer to the current problems comes in finding a way to reach your average punter to buy music again instead of just downloading it for free from soulseek or it's equivalent , the tide is turning though in the UK alone in the first six months of 2004 there was 500,000 legal downloads and in the first six months of 2005 there was 10,000,000 and that is still only 2% of the music market in the UK.

I really don't think the format is the issue here as digital is the way forward to tie yourself to another format like CD is a pretty pointless exercise the best way forward is to be distributing digital files (be they mp3,mp4,wav,aiff,flac, whatever) and letting people decide on there own preferred method of playback themselves, the digital times are coming faster than anyone could have predicted now and I will be as sad as anyone when Vinyl finally becomes extinct but to be honest I can't see anything else now.

[Scott Kemix]

so is this where being a dj ends? No vinyl no dj's? Or will this change its format to? The new era of Digital DJ's!!! hehehehehe :lol:

[Jay Pace]

To be honest here I think the point is being missed quite a bit here , the main reason sales are in the toilet compared to just a few years ago is almost exclusively down to the fact the genre is tied so closely to vinyl.

I.E the only people buying Techno (on the whole) is dj's because your average punter just doesn't want turntables etc at home just to play some tunes , hence the popularity of mix cd's etc (and then the subsequent collapse of that market due to the initial rush of downloading), In my opinion the answer to the current problems comes in finding a way to reach your average punter to buy music again instead of just downloading it for free from soulseek or it's equivalent , the tide is turning though in the UK alone in the first six months of 2004 there was 500,000 legal downloads and in the first six months of 2005 there was 10,000,000 and that is still only 2% of the music market in the UK.

I really don't think the format is the issue here as digital is the way forward to tie yourself to another format like CD is a pretty pointless exercise the best way forward is to be distributing digital files (be they mp3,mp4,wav,aiff,flac, whatever) and letting people decide on there own preferred method of playback themselves, the digital times are coming faster than anyone could have predicted now and I will be as sad as anyone when Vinyl finally becomes extinct but to be honest I can't see anything else now.

:clap: :clap: Could not agree with this more :clap: :clap:

[JohnnySideways]

very good idea.i hate to admit to myself that this CD thing is happening...but it is.
The Psy trance scene(:dontevengothere: ) is 95% CD's only now, and they still make money despite the likes of Kazaa,Soulseek etc

[Scott Kemix]

what do we all prefer honestly though, vinyl or cds? Maybe cds will be cheaper, but is this the main reason for it becoming alot more popular as a format in the dance music scene.

[Jay Pace]

I love Vinyl, but I hate paying £8 for a tune that then gets stolen, scratched or lost.

I now love paying 80p for new tracks. And I buy sooo much more music...

Its all about music. Format is nothing.

[rowland the bastard]

vinyl is not making any cash, mp3's arnt, whats the point in doing cd's? one eprson will buy it and post it on the web so everyone else can download it for free

[rowland the bastard]

vinyl is not making any cash, mp3's arnt, whats the point in doing cd's? one eprson will buy it and post it on the web so everyone else can download it for free

[Scott Kemix]

if you love vinyl then stick by it, and the thing is not all titles are available on cd. The most i pay for a vinyl when i purchase is around £5-7, and i dont mind paying this, thats if it is all about the music anyway

[djshiva]

Im happy to see the enthusiasm and comradery of Black Out Audio. But another reality besides cds, is that the 1000 or so performing dj's on this forum can not force the sales-base into converting to cdj's.

although djs maybe lo0king at cd's, the vast majority (all of the) promoters i have seen, dont even book cd-djs' because its just another technical hastle that has gotten easy to avoid by booking a vinyl dj instead.

the hidden control of the dj industry is the event promoter.

you might get a club to buy cd-decks. good luck getting the little fish to invest in more gear.

(all respect due, the little fish are where most of my gigs come from)

well, here's two ideas.

1) i am not worried about becoming a "cd-dj" cuz the bulk of my collection is always gonna be vinyl. but i am more than willing to pay for cds for one reason: vinyl is less bang for the buck (2-4 tracks for a ten dollar import) than a cd (potentially 8-12 tracks for about the same price).

and frankly, gigs aren't paying enough these days to justify the cost of keeping in new tunes. no more shelling out 200 bucks a week on records for me. i just can't afford it.

2) put the cd dj in your booking contract. if someone wants you to play, then frankly, they can look around and find at least one cd player. you can rent them, you can borrow them...and they're easy as hell to learn on the fly.

i have been supplementing with cds for some time now, both albums on cd and cd demos of tracks from friends and fellow techno geeks. to me, it's easier to do that and request a cd player at gigs than it is to afford a new laptop and final scratch. since my income is riding the poverty line and dj gigs aren't paying much, it's more cost effective to supplement with digital media. i looooove my vinyl, and will buy it when i have the dough, but frankly, cds are a nifty way to bring along some good old school and brand spankin' new tracks.

PLUS, quite honestly, the majority of people who buy vinyl are djs, and it would be nice if labels could survive and thrive by expanding their listening audience. might result in some more adventurous projects as well...

i have always liked the fact that if you buy tunes from itunes or beatport, you can skip the filler too. so many times i shell out 10 or more USD for a record that really only has one track i like and one or two fillers that go nowhere. be nice to skip the filler and just get the tunes i dig.

forgive the rambling. sill caffeinating...

[MARKEG]

yeah cheers for all your thoughts on this guys. some very interesting stuff.

my conclusion is i'm going to try to go for this. even if it's only a few of my fave labels and more of our own product. the new site has the facility for it so why the hell not give it a go. if it's messes up, well it messes up - you live and learn. thanks for everyone who's replied via pm. i'm still building up that list of interested labels, so if you havent told me you're interested, please let me know!!!

now all i have to do is work my ass of and try to get this site up as quick as possible. then you really will see the potential ;)

[tocsin]

what do we all prefer honestly though, vinyl or cds? Maybe cds will be cheaper, but is this the main reason for it becoming alot more popular as a format in the dance music scene.

There is only one thing I prefer about vinyl. And it's an "old dog" thing. Simply, I find it easier to mix with records than CDs. That's it. There is nothing else about the medium that I find appealing. Thankfully, Final Scratch bridged the gap for me. I can spin my own tracks in digital format, pan and reverb out the kicks as much as I want, and it poses no problems. While cost is definitely a factor to take into consideration, I'd be a liar if I said that was my primary concern. But, yeah, I also like the ability of getting 12 to 15 songs for just slightly more than I pay for an import vinyl with 2-4 tracks.

Oh, and Herman is right on the ****ing money.

[Scott Kemix]

what do we all prefer honestly though, vinyl or cds? Maybe cds will be cheaper, but is this the main reason for it becoming alot more popular as a format in the dance music scene.

There is only one thing I prefer about vinyl. And it's an "old dog" thing. Simply, I find it easier to mix with records than CDs. That's it. There is nothing else about the medium that I find appealing. Thankfully, Final Scratch bridged the gap for me. I can spin my own tracks in digital format, pan and reverb out the kicks as much as I want, and it poses no problems. While cost is definitely a factor to take into consideration, I'd be a liar if I said that was my primary concern. But, yeah, I also like the ability of getting 12 to 15 songs for just slightly more than I pay for an import vinyl with 2-4 tracks.

maybe you find it easier to mix with vinyl than cds, but its just not the same is it? Pushing the tiny platter of a cdj with your forefinger does not do nowt for me at all, as opposed to putting a brand new vinyl on a solid plate of steel. Also i have witnessed on many occasions in clubs and parties Final Scratch tends to trip out and become very unreliable, especially if you are paying to enter the club and you are having a buzz this is the last thing you want to happen. My main point is, why are labels going to cross over to pressing cd's if they are already established and sell enough units in vinyl format?

Oh, and Herman is right on the **** money.

[tocsin]

If all the vinyl labels were selling out all their runs in a manner that earns them profit, why all the bitching? If that's not the case, they can find a new means of distribution or die. Personally, I rarely buy vinyl anymore. However, I'm at a somewhat lucky point where, if I really felt like playing the game, all my "dated" records are now sounds that people have gotten into again and missed the first time around. I am a vinyl DJ that doesn't buy vinyl. And it's got nothing to do with P2P piracy. As for the feel of vinyl over CD, I really couldn't care less. I've never used a CD deck with a virtual platter. The only decks I've used are the + and - push button models with the pitch bar. As for Final Scratch, the buzz is usually related to the laptop. On my Mac, I don't get a buzz. I only get a buzz from vinyl if I hook it up to a Dell. That is effectively cancelled by plugging my Dell into a groundless adaptor when I use Final Scratch. Labels that may want to get people like myself back into
their market again would be wise to release tracks in compressed digital format. For everyone else who isn't a DJ, they're better off selling CDs. If they choose not to and notice a huge slump in sales, it's their damn fault.

[Scott Kemix]

If all the vinyl labels were selling out all their runs in a manner that earns them profit, why all the bitching? If that's not the case, they can find a new means of distribution or die. Personally, I rarely buy vinyl anymore. However, I'm at a somewhat lucky point where, if I really felt like playing the game, all my "dated" records are now sounds that people have gotten into again and missed the first time around. I am a vinyl DJ that doesn't buy vinyl. And it's got nothing to do with P2P piracy. As for the feel of vinyl over CD, I really couldn't care less. I've never used a CD deck with a virtual platter. The only decks I've used are the + and - push button models with the pitch bar. As for Final Scratch, the buzz is usually related to the laptop. On my Mac, I don't get a buzz. I only get a buzz from vinyl if I hook it up to a Dell. That is effectively cancelled by plugging my Dell into a groundless adaptor when I use Final Scratch. Labels that may want to get people like myself back into
their market again would be wise to release tracks in compressed digital format. For everyone else who isn't a DJ, they're better off selling CDs. If they choose not to and notice a huge slump in sales, it's their damn fault.

course they do, if you sell 500 you make profit if you sell 1000 you make more of a profit. I dont see any bitching anywhere tbh. Try using cdj1000, its a good model like, but nowhere near as controllable and solid as a 1210. If you start pressing cds then thats cool, but how much bigger is your profit margin gonna be compared to vinyl, not much i suspect.

[tocsin]

I've seen no shortage of bitching here and elsewhere from "label owners" regarding lack of distro, sales, etc. Particularly if you are selling harder music, if you are experiencing such problems, I think it's silly to not sell digital, whether CD or MP3. While everyone likes to point at factors such as piracy, too many crap releases, etc. as being the issue, the main issue that most people don't like to talk about is that, in most regions, the number of DJs who spin hard music has shrank. Sell music in a DJ only format and your sales will hurt. Sell it in a format that the average Joe who likes hard music can bump in their car, keep your ahead above water. Just once, I'd love to see some of those who repeatedly bitch admit that they are going to do that, rather than posting some boring and childish "I'm quitting techno" rant.

As far as using a CD deck, what's "better" has never been an issue for me with anything really. There is a plateau where "better" becomes a technicality. If I found a CD deck that I was comfortable mixing with, I'd use it. But, this is never going to be the case due to the fact that a.) I got very capable with using Traktor when the first version came out, which is pretty much the same as using old CD decks without a virtual platter, and b.) I have Final Scratch. So, in that sense, I just really have no need to invest the money in good CD decks right now. However, I do have a need for digital music. I genuinely look forward to the day when I can show up to a gig with a pocket size USB harddrive and nothing else. It's a matter of personal preference really, not what's better.

[Scott Kemix]

Thats cool man, i think we all have a choice what we like to use. But as for the vinyl thing dying out, this was said a few years ago, but never seems to happen. ;)

[Aratron]

cds are awful, they've been around long enough to have finally killed off vinyl if that s the way it was going to go.
let the psytrance heads use cd's they have no soul imo.
the symbiotic realtionship between dj and vinyl is special and magic, its not the same buzz doing it with vinyl.
and as for vinyl not making money that is so much bullshit, if it wasnt making money then who would make them in the first place.
what you actually mean to say is , not making me enough money to keep me in the lifestyle im becoming accustomed too.

[tocsin]

Whatever it is, Aratron. I'm not pretending to know as I don't run a vinyl label for a living. But, there's been no shortage of threats from various labels and artists of giving up lately due to lack of sales. On a side note, I do know that, for at least the tracks that I've worked on, the most units that were moved were on CD, not vinyl. Over twice as much movement if my memory serves correct. For a label that doesn't deal in digital, I can see a problem. But, that's their prob.

[Aratron]

well Tocsin i havent really got a clue as to the state of the vinyl industry.
its all about the law of supply and demand in the end.
why can't things be marketed more intelligently.
like vinyl, and cd being packaged together , that represents the best of both worlds. multi-format items. with a code so you can download the MP3 off the website. i dont know im blue sky thinking

[Jay Pace]

well Tocsin i havent really got a clue as to the state of the vinyl industry.
its all about the law of supply and demand in the end.
why can't things be marketed more intelligently.
like vinyl, and cd being packaged together , that represents the best of both worlds. multi-format items. with a code so you can download the MP3 off the website. i dont know im blue sky thinking

What you've just come up there is format independent music.
Something for everyone.

Otherwise known as digital.

Burn it onto a cd. Cut it as a dub. Play it on tape. Buy final scratch. Its all the same.

Vinyl sales are dropping off towards the deeply unprofitable end of the scale. Legal downloads are skyrocketing.

CDs are a much better format than vinyl. Much better sound quality, and there will always be a demand for a physical format. Vinyl is rapidly becoming a kitsch niche market for people who love it more than the music thats on it.

[Aratron]

well Tocsin i havent really got a clue as to the state of the vinyl industry.
its all about the law of supply and demand in the end.
why can't things be marketed more intelligently.
like vinyl, and cd being packaged together , that represents the best of both worlds. multi-format items. with a code so you can download the MP3 off the website. i dont know im blue sky thinking

What you've just come up there is format independent music.
Something for everyone.

Otherwise known as digital.

Burn it onto a cd. Cut it as a dub. Play it on tape. Buy final scratch. Its all the same.

Vinyl sales are dropping off towards the deeply unprofitable end of the scale. Legal downloads are skyrocketing.

CDs are a much better format than vinyl. Much better sound quality, and there will always be a demand for a physical format. Vinyl is rapidly becoming a kitsch niche market for people who love it more than the music thats on it.

well you seem to have pasion for vinyl. but i feel its unfair to say that people who buy vinyl are a kitsch niche market.
i have a pair of record decks, i dont have the money to buy top quality pioneer cd decks. i do enjoy the aspect of using vinyl and mixing with it.
why can't we have both formats, it doesn't have to be one or the other it should and can be both.
i don't think the argument is about whether people would buy more cds than they would vinyl, i think the issue is changing tastes as a whole.
The way the vinyl industry is marketed and supplied. i don't know i really think there should be both so there can be genuine choice and then the market can take it from there.

[Aratron]

passion for cds i mean

[dan the acid man]

i think thats the idea here, not getting rid of vinyl just yet for the labels who want to sell cd's, but having an avenue to be able to sell cd's through the new site, and also continue to sell vinyl in the record shops

[Scott Kemix]

i think thats the idea here, not getting rid of vinyl just yet for the labels who want to sell cd's, but having an avenue to be able to sell cd's through the new site, and also continue to sell vinyl in the record shops

spot on. Vinyl sales might be alot smaller than they were, but i have just started a new techno label and have managed to shift all the units and even if we didnt, i would not go moaning and complaining etc.