Mixing Discussion

[Adverse]

ALRIGHT. well, what can i say i love mixing down tunes.. so what better to do than start a discussion about it. on my favorite and (only) board.

few questions..

Love it or hate it?
Got any special tips to share?
how do you prepare to mix?(anything you sit down and undertake before getting your ears all percolated?)
what's critical for you before you send it out to master/final process?

to me a track means shit unless it's properly mixed, and anyone who knows me knows i'm a scrutinous bastard when it comes to the mix of a track. Which'll proabably lead me to never release a track. lol.


Also maybe we can discuss the great mixers in techno today. First person(s) that comes to mind for me is speedy j and joel mull.

[djTequila]

I normally try to keep a track well mixed as I go... A process which slows me down no end. So I'll be watching the rest of this thread with much interest!

;)

Tequila

[eyes without a face]

i try to get the levels and eqs correct as i go, the way i see it, wots the point in getting something sounding sweet then pulling all the faders down and starting again?

[djTequila]

I used to think that, but I'm coming round... It seems to be a more creative process to go with a rough idea of the levels and EQ, getting the ideas down quickly, then doing the engineering phase as a non-creative process.

Tequila

[audioinjection]

Whoever mixes the stuff on Kanzleramt is good to me, I like that phat sound they have on their records.


When I mix, I mix very differently, but what I don't understand is if mixing is an art, why are people so critical about it? We should be able to mix how we want and bring out what we want in the mix, rather than how this and that should be louder in the mix. What if the mixer wanted it that way?

[The Divide]

I think its a pain in the ass, seriously I hate it. Dont get me wrong, I would most probably enjoy it, maybe even love it I didnt take so long to come up with something thats "ok" even then I never feel like its 100%. If i could do it fast I would ****ing love it. I spend about 1/4 of the time producing and making the track. Then theres mixing for the other 3/4 mixing. its then where I start getting bored and tired of the track and start changing the elements and sometimes hearing things that I pobably wouldnt normaly hear. If I could get it right and do it fast then I would have a differant opinion totally...

The levels arnt realy something I see as a problem but E.Q is, and keeping the balance I find hard along with adding the right compression. Although I probably complicate my mixes too much by doing things like layering up 2-4 kick drums and have channel grouping all over the place. I must use about 6-7 compressors on sounds/channels and a st pair on the full mix. Sometimes I can mix something and totally beleave I got it right. Edit and master it and feel happy with the result. Then compare it how it sounded at the very beginning and think "fuk I added too much bass" or whatever, go back again and again.


I used to think that, but I'm coming round... It seems to be a more creative process to go with a rough idea of the levels and EQ, getting the ideas down quickly, then doing the engineering phase as a non-creative process.

Thanks I am going to try this. When I make a track I am changing it as I go along.


i'm a scrutinous bastard

Thats what I like about you, ya mix slag!!

[The Divide]

Btw good topic. I also will be following this topic :shock: . Any one else have any thoughts on this....

[Adverse]

was talking to mark earlier this week... he was telling me that mixing is much easier when you've already crossed out the maligning freq's in your loop/samples... so maybe eq as you go along is.. ok.. but pre eq your loops/samples will make it even easier. i still love the mixing aspect of it.. making sure it all sits right.. :)

[The Divide]

Yeah, if I come out out from reason, soundforge or what ever I tend to roll off the bass or make lil cuts here and there. Makes it easier

[DJZeMig_L]

Quick mix as I go along... if I'm on a roll i just make noise.. later I come back and clean up the house... leave the technician at home when u wanna make music, leave the producer midway when u mix.. compromise... Perfection doesn't exist but u get closer each time u try ;)

Z

[DJZeMig_L]

I prefer raw treatment on my samples later on I can addapt 2 what i need...

Z

[Dustin Zahn]

Adverse, I agree with you 100%. A million dollar track is worthless if its mastered poorly. A great amount of the time I spend more time on mastering than the track itself. Usually when I get feedback from people, even if they don't like my music at all they at least say the mastering is real good and clean (feel free to challenge that, I'm always open to constructive critcism). At the end of the day, I still scratch my head, trying to figure out how to boost certain frequency ranges to make my sound more full and get the thickest, loudest cut possible.

Here's how I generally mix stuff down (in order):

Waves Maxxbass: I use the agressive preset and tweak it so its not overpowering, but so that it still has balls.

Paragraphic EQ: I usually end up boosting a bunch of mid range and hi-range frequencies.

Waves LinEQ thingy: I find that this plug-in does a good job and cleaning up the low end so its not so muddy.

Waves Stereoimager: I add a slight stereo spread to make the track less cluttered, and give it a thicker feel to it.

Waves Ultramaximizer L2: -10dB threshold, -2.5dB ceiling, 100ms release

Waves L1: -4.0dB threshold, -2.7dB ceiling, 10ms release

That's my chain. I'm trying to find ways to improve even more. Sometimes I think I am limiting a bit too much. For instance, when i put a kick drum on the direct off beat, it will great quiet the track due to the amount of bass. I'm learning this all on my own as I go and am seriously considering taking some small courses on mastering.

[The Divide]

I do very similar. I use the preset chainer and have about 6 plugings down the chain. Work on each one after the other then edit the full chain. Not sure if its recomended to do this, I think it works ok for me. Does anyone else use the plugin chainer??

Stiengberg magneto (adds slight warmth/distortion)
Ultrafunk multiband R3 (multiband compressor)
Wavs Q10 (eq)
maybe another Q10
BBE sonic maximiser (enhancer)
L2 ultramaximiser
Spectra R-pro (speccy analisis)

When I am happy with it, hit process selection. Save the chain too. Not tryed st imagining yet (nice one). Its amazing what you can do with mastering. I allways make sure I keep the unmastered files too.

[Vin-iLL]

I think it's really hard to understand how to mix your tracks properly...
But once you've learned the trick you'll love doing this I think :-)
A few weeks ago we've posted a track here which sounded pretty weak.

After Adverse gave us some tips the track sounded way better !

Does anyone use T-Racks as mastering tool ?
I think it's a fantastic tool for making your tracks much warmer !
Check this out : http://www.t-racks.com/Main.html?prod_TR_Plug

Great mixers : Cari Lekebush, Christian Wünsch, Adam Beyer

[DJZeMig_L]

Dustin ...thresh. -10db ... wow!!! M8 unless U have really heavy dynamics on yer track I thing that might b a bit 2 much ... !?

No 1 goes 4 a multi comp!?!?

Fernando b very carefull with the BBE I have found that it can have a positive feel but U have 2 really ease up on the param. otherwise it kills a lot of the midrange....

MHO,

Z

[professor]

The mix is the most difficult part for me. OF course, i've only been making tracks for a little less than a year, so I am still spending a lot of time on trial and error (I find that while it helps to read about how other people do it, the sound I like is never the same as others, and I gotta fiddle through it all till it sounds good to me). For instance, just made a track I thought really got on, then near the end I thought it sounded a little thin and maybe it ought to have something else. So I slapped a little distortion on the Master Out, and all of a sudden I had a good warmth, but all the levels were jacked. frustration at its finest.

So my point is that I find that the mix is terribly difficult.
(plus, I think my headphones are dying)

[The Divide]

Does anyone use T-Racks as mastering tool ?
I think it's a fantastic tool for making your tracks much warmer !

Its fecking faboulus! I love this program and would strongly reccomend it.


Fernando b very carefull with the BBE I have found that it can have a positive feel but U have 2 really ease up on the param. otherwise it kills a lot of the midrange....

Yeah, strange isnt it. I dont think I have taken any of the dials past 2-3, I dont use the bass enhance. It muddies the mix too much. Its also good to monitor at a low level. If it sounds right at low levels, slam it up and see whats its like at high volume. If it sounds good low, the mix seems to turn out alot better.

[Vin-iLL]

Who has actually ever bought a plug-in ?
Please stand up ! :twisted:

[DJZeMig_L]

yeah m8... that's right!

BTW - I didn't say U were over doing it.. I just said b carefull 4 the sake of any1 who reads these posts and might not know as much as 2 do m8 :wink:

Seems like U r using it preatty wisely... It clears up the mix a little bcause it also does some liean/ phasing correction.. so the mix kinda tightens up!!

Z

[DJZeMig_L]

here here .. guilty as charged .. I just bought Storm 2, Steinberg SL, Moog Modular V, etc...

[Adverse]

Dustin ...thresh. -10db ... wow!!! M8 unless U have really heavy dynamics on yer track I thing that might b a bit 2 much ... !?

No 1 goes 4 a multi comp!?!?

Fernando b very carefull with the BBE I have found that it can have a positive feel but U have 2 really ease up on the param. otherwise it kills a lot of the midrange....

MHO,

Z
-10 seems a bit much too me..

[Dustin Zahn]

Yeah, it could be. Musically, my knowledge is limited. I just tweak things until they sound cool. I'll look into changing it. That's why I posted it in the first place, maybe to see where I have some errors.

[DJZeMig_L]

Well m8.. depends a lot on what u r after but over compressed stuff might sound not that lively ... I'll msn U asap! ;)

Z

[davethedrummer]

i tend to mix very much as i go along
i don't really subscribe to all this plug in processing.
i think you should do all that at the cut really
i think cutting rooms have the analogue gear that the software guys try to emulate anyway. so why not use the originlas and talk to the cutting engineer about your mix at the same time.
tend to start all midi and analogue and mulitrack stuff to the mac as i go along
including effect sweeps and filters etc.

one thing though
i read an article with a famous breaks and house producer (sorry lost th name) and he made a lot of sense
he started saying that he used to use a lot of eq
but now he spends more time getting the source sounds right and really trying not to use too much eq on the channels
i sort of agree with this 'cos you can process all the "life" out of a track by just doing too much to it.

sometimes i break down the mix once i finished the arrangement
but on a good day it does itself as i go along .

[davethedrummer]

one more thing
finish the bloody thing.
it's so important o get it finished
it doesn't matter if it has imperfections (it always will)(to you anyway)
(obviously, unless you are a genuis)
but getting your music around on labels and on sound systems will help you see what you are doing wrong (or right) much quicker than you'll be able to work it out just by yourself.
so send it off get it signed or start a label or whatever
even play it off a c.d. in a club to test it
but i've always just moved on from track to track
i don't like to go backwards (unless it's really worth it)
i know a few young guys here in london and this is their only problem, they just don't ever really finish anything!

[Dustin Zahn]

one thing though
i read an article with a famous breaks and house producer (sorry lost th name) and he made a lot of sense
he started saying that he used to use a lot of eq
but now he spends more time getting the source sounds right and really trying not to use too much eq on the channels
i sort of agree with this 'cos you can process all the "life" out of a track by just doing too much to it.


I agree. I used to do a lot of sampling back when I first started producing, and I would constantly filter and EQ my samples to try and warp them into different sounds. At the end of the day, I would make the tracks work, but the final mastering you could tell certain frequencies were missing and things just don't sound good. For the past...7 or 8 months I've went to doing my own synth programing and what not instead of sampling. I've found that the thickness and quality of my sounds have shot up ten fold because I am not doing all this clumsy EQ editing, etc. I've taken the time to totally rethink how I do my tracks. These days I concentrate more on the sounds going in, than how I can take a shitty sound and make it cool.

[DJZeMig_L]

Dave I would agree with ya 70 % ... the other 30% would go into doing a smart eq (sensibility is the key word.. nothing 2 crazy just normal cuting of irrelevant freq. on each channel), even smarter balancing of channel levels/ gains & panning... I tend 2 use less and less comp/ limiting (exept for the odd bass with insertion from the kick)... unless I the comp. pumping is what I'm looking 4 or somethin'
I go for cleaning, clearing sounds b4 I dirty them up again.. get a good dinamic, moving mix.. and then touch it up just a notch..

Then It should b a proper mastering person... now over here I must be one of the there basically no 1 who really know how 2 master tracks 4 techno/ house/ transe so u preatty much have 2 get stuff released and work from there...

[Adverse]

one thing though
i read an article with a famous breaks and house producer (sorry lost th name) and he made a lot of sense
he started saying that he used to use a lot of eq
but now he spends more time getting the source sounds right and really trying not to use too much eq on the channels
i sort of agree with this 'cos you can process all the "life" out of a track by just doing too much to it.



i've just started doing this and i must say it's paying off nicely.

[djTequila]

Fernando b very carefull with the BBE I have found that it can have a positive feel but U have 2 really ease up on the param. otherwise it kills a lot of the midrange....

It sounds like its using a technique (also employed by the 'loudness' button on stereos) whereby the lower and upper frequencies are boosted to produce a psychoacoustic effect that increases apparent loudness. If the overall level was kept the same, the midrange would suffer.

It's probably better to do this yourself, so you can play the EQ more musically.

Tequila

[interferron]

one thing though
i read an article with a famous breaks and house producer (sorry lost th name) and he made a lot of sense
he started saying that he used to use a lot of eq
but now he spends more time getting the source sounds right and really trying not to use too much eq on the channels


it makes a lot of sense, there's the old saying "if you try to fix sh*t with effects, you'll only get effected sh*t". same goes for the eq usually. of course if the source sound is as good as possible you don't have to use force on the channel when mixing. i usually get worried if i have everything ready for mixing and i notice some channel that would _clearly_ need effects to sit better in the mix - i think that you should already have an acceptable mix in the arrangement stage, and when you record everything into a mixdown version and start the mixing, the mix should be done because you know it will make the whole track sound so much better.

and the next step, mastering, i try to leave to the professionals. once again, i make the mix the best i can so i'm not demanding anything more when i hear it. but a professional mastering engineer with his equipment can give that last touch to it.

as for the mixdown, i record everything to audio tracks, everything separately (a mixdown version would contain 8-14 audio tracks): kicks, snares, hihats, percussions, bass, instruments, vocals, everything. hi-pass or low-shelf filter on every track, then noise gate, possibly a little overdrive (snares, sometimes bass and kick), individual compression, perhaps individual reverb or delay, then route into a bus channel.
kick+bass - bus 1, snare + other drums - bus 2, usually a generic reverb stands on bus 3. i compress kick and bass together, usually use a side-chain compression on other drums-bus so that i trigger the compression by the kick channel (heavy kick eats just a little bit 0.5dB-1dB out of hihats, snare etc).
every channel in mono, possibly panned a little bit. except for strings, chords and what ever the instrument structure is in the track, which are in stereo - i mean the "second most important instrument" which usually is somekind of a chord. the most important instrument usually in mono and dead center, so its easy to listen to.

[interferron]

oh, and don't underestimate the power of the bypass-button when mixing, especially with compression. you can tweak the compression levels forever and your ear gets used to hearing what you're doing ("hey, this -25dB and 1:20 ratio sounds good!"). bypass it and notice that the original signal without compression actually sounds better :) best compression settings are usually the ones you wouldn't notice without bypass, it just tightens the signal.

[The Divide]

I must admit, some of the drum/source sounds i have used in the past can be made to sound realy good even when they sound shit to start of with. I know what you mean about what you put in is what comes out but I also think sometimes low quality stuff can work well with small amounts on certain sounds. I think the main problem I have is processing/e.qing the life out of my tracks. The sounds I sometimes put in can also cause me problems. Like having a hard kick n bass thats sucking away all the power from the mix. I like what you can do with F.x esp pitching and lowpassing sounds. Sometimes its worth boucing some of the main percusion and pitching them around and having them layered up somewhere in the back with reverb/delay. It helps fill out the bandwidth of the mix. Oh, and try gates on kick drums too!! :) :) :)

[interferron]

I must admit, some of the drum/source sounds i have used in the past can be made to sound realy good even when they sound shit to start of with.

Yeah, of course. And it's still techno, so you should experiment with sounds.. perhaps my point was more like: before mixdown, when you're sequencing, you generally should tweak the sounds as good as you can. Pitch, filter, heavy fx, etc the individual sounds. You can do all of it when mixing and try to turn shit into gold, but your chances are a lot higher if it's already "ok" when you start mixing :)

My mixing tip of the week :), just discovered it myself: use a low shelfing filter to remove really low frequencies from your kick and bass, something like -6.0dB below 30-40Hz. surprisingly it makes the kick and bass a lot clearer without really sounding any less "bass". everything else i generally hi pass filter at 160-320Hz or low shelf filter, so that any harmonics or distorted sound won't be there to mess with the bass.

[djTequila]

This is a really good technique - it also gives you more headroom to play with, so you can get your mix sounding louder!

:D

Tequila