VINYL AND DJ'ING.. quote by Fabio

[Si the Sigh]

There is no escaping the digital revolution as burning mp3s to CD move in and vinyl begins to move out, but Radio 1's D&B DJ Fabio is a man that prides himself on cutting dubs. It's a serious issue for him, something which he feels very strongly about:

"The way I look at it, if I pick up a pack of CDs I don't feel like I'm going to work. I feel like I'm just going out to have a piss about to be honest. Don't get me wrong, it's a cheaper option but when we were growing up, you saved your last penny to cut a dub, and I find it funny when people say...'ahh it's expensive'...its not that much more expensive than it was 12 years ago and you know, we survived it, you would spend your last penny on getting dubs cut and now you can burn something on a CD. I have seen big DJs do it and fair dos to them, because I would play a CD if I haven't got time to cut it, but for my whole set to be played from CD- I'm not in it, I need to feel that I have got my record box to carry, that's got 60 dubs in there that weigh 23kg, almost breaking my back carrying it, because its work innit."

All in all, Fabio doesn't mind if DJs play CDs but the problem comes in the morality of it all when a big DJ, getting paid copious amounts of cash, plays a whole set of CDs.

Moreover, when the crowd fail to recognize who you are all because you have turned up with a CD pouch rather than a record bag, that's not a good look!

"People are like, where's the DJ? Where is he? You walk into a club with a record bag, everyone knows it you, if you're carrying you record box there's no mistaking it, but you walk in with a CD pouch and you could be anybody. You could just turn round and say I'm Fabio you know, it's just taking away the real meaning behind the music. But I can turn round and say this and it doesn't mean anything cuz in five years time there could be no vinyl anymore and we've gotta be prepared for the change, because that's the way technology is going anyway."

[Miromiric]

what a bunch of baloney.
and now back to quadriplegic midget in bikini.

[Miromiric]

and may i add :pray:

[Si the Sigh]

Judging by his comments he's just saying that it feels to HIM like he's not really doing it right, because of what he's used to when DJ'ing. Not casting judgement on what counts as real DJ'ing in terms of all DJs. Maybe he's a little frightened of change...?

[eyeswithoutaface]

Moreover, when the crowd fail to recognize who you are all because you have turned up with a CD pouch rather than a record bag, that's not a good look!

"People are like, where's the DJ? Where is he?

haha brilliant

[Miromiric]

at the end of the day, its all about being recognized in the crowd and giving out highfives or good, old signatures.

[TechMouse]

Well, not all of us have cushy Radio 1 jobs though, eh?

Yes, in the past people may have saved their last penny to cut a dub, but now we don't have to.

In the past, people had to have limbs amputated because of minor infection. I don't see people clamouring to get back to those good old days... I bet he's got a mobile phone too... Perhaps he ought to jack that in, because back in the day people had to make do with phone boxes, and they survived that...

Also, might I add, it's easy to play a whole set of brand spanking new vinyl each week when you get sent hundreds of the buggers in the post day in day out - as I'm sure Fabio does. For some people, staying upfront means playing CD-Rs from mates.

[MARKEG]

what fabio says there is what i thought first of all when i realised what was going on. but over the last year my thoughts have changed alot. i don't totally agree but i do sort of.

i see his point about not feeling like you're working, not feeling real. coming in with a cd pouch really doesnt feel like work. or being real. half of this whole djing thing for me has been about carrying that god-damn bag everywhere for years. but hey, perhaps we should see it as a good thing that we don't have to carry the bag, but i just cant.

i love technology. i hate cd's. i feel great spinning records. i feel fake spinning cd's. i want the real product, i want to have searched hard on the net, i want to buy it and wait 3 days for it to come, and then open the package and smell it. listen to it. i also want to take a quick journey to my local record shop, chat shit to the guy behind the counter and laugh at everyone's jokes.

vinyl will not die. it's gonna take me a long time to get used to the changes, i'm really trying hard, but i think there are always gonna be those of us that love the real deal.

[dan the acid man]

i think alot of us feel the same way if were honest, i know i do.
i know in a way its keeping hold of those romantic notions, packing a record bag full of records, carrying it around all night, flicking through the records, taking it out of its sleeve, making sure your putting the right side on the decks.

i dont see whats wrong with enjoying holding onto all these things.
i dont snigger at anybody wanting to play entire sets with cd's, but i know i wouldnt want to do that.

[FIK]

A lot of dj's switch to cd's, ableton, final scratch, etc because they are fed up carrying their bags........... You've got best damn job in the world and you get paid well for it. If carrying a few bags around is too much to ask

[dirty_bass]

It`s nothing more than nostalgia, and resistance to change, all us old ****s need a kick up the arse.
The medium is irrelevant, as long as you can do the job with it, and it`s good quality.
Who cares if it`s some heavy smelly bit of black plastic or a shiny metallic zip drive.
And fabio talking about nobody knowing who the DJ is and that it`s taking the real meaning away from the music, what? you mean it`s not boosting your fragile ego?
People should be facing the speakers and dancing to the music.
Who cares what it is done with as long as it is done honestly and with passion.

It`s like artists snarling at each other over whether acrylic or oils are true to the spirit of painting.
tosh.

[lunatrick]

you don't feel like you're working unless you're carrying around a bag of concrete? be serious :lol: lets be honest top jocks probably get their bags carried for them anyway.......

I don't see any difference between top people getting paid wads of cash to play a load of free 12"'s or a load of free cd's...whats the difference? However the fact that D&B more than any other genre controls new music through the use of dubplates probably has got something to do with his comments....not very easy to control the burning of cd's is it? and if you don't have exclusive music to offer..well what have you got? not a lot....incidentally not a dig at fabio as i quite rate him as a dj. I think he's probably just worried about how the changes will affect him, but in reality things will just stay the same......house dj's switched over to cd ages ago....that scene still seems quite healthy to me.

[lunatrick]

tosh.

great word. and I agree who cares? if you've got some talent / skill then the medium is irrelevant

[holotropik]

I have noticed that the music is getting better because of CDs/MP3 etc. There is now the ability to produce and go for the real low thick frequencies and absolute clarity mi/highs that are not well translated on vinyl. For my ears, I cant stand the flat sound of vinyl anymore.

The rest is all about the DJ ego....which we know is over-rated anyway :P

[anx]

i love technology. i hate cd's. i feel great spinning records. i feel fake spinning cd's. i want the real product, i want to have searched hard on the net, i want to buy it and wait 3 days for it to come, and then open the package and smell it. listen to it. i also want to take a quick journey to my local record shop, chat shit to the guy behind the counter and laugh at everyone's jokes.

vinyl will not die. it's gonna take me a long time to get used to the changes, i'm really trying hard, but i think there are always gonna be those of us that love the real deal.

now this deserves to be quoted.

exactly how i feel man. thank you

[DJ Asylum]

its all about opinion.

My opinion (for what its worth :lol: ) is that until i have that tune on vinyl i aint got it, i have hundreds of tunes on mp3, have cd decks... but still dont count having the tune until its in that record box.

Like Mark said its the time spent hunting for it, then waiting for it to come etc. The thrill of the chase kinda, its all too easy to just sit at the computer, d/l a tune, burn it then bobs ur aunty.

like i said, just my honest opinion. ;)

[dirty_bass]

What if you buy the wav fule direct from the artist?
What does hunting and waiting and sweating and pouring over your chosen medium that holds the music have to do with the music itself.
Music is soundwaves, created, generally by a vibrating speaker cone.
All the other stuff is fine, but it`s geek stuff, same as collecting starwars figures, or my little pony, or trainspotting.
Techno is supposedly the music of the future, we are meant to embrace technology.
You don`t hear this from a lot of other scenes in dance music, who tend to drool over the music, more than the tools, they have seemingly embraced new technologies pretty easily. It`s fairly embarassing really.

[davethedrummer]

it's all blah blah really

yeah cds don't feel " real"
but thats because the punters are still getting used to them
so are the djs

laptops look even more fake
but soon people will realise that they hear much better music live now .
it just takes time for people to understand the skill elements involved.

records are obvious , everybody knows how a record player works and how hard it is to mix good in a club.

but friday in edinburgh my last tune was on cd ( a new unreleased acid track )
and the place went mad and i really don't think anyone was bothered about where the music was coming from as long as it was loud and it didn't stop.

[rhythmtech]

couldn't agree more.. i've been using ableton at gigs for 2 years now for live & djing. i dont think anybody really cares as long as the sounds are good. and to be honest dragging a laptop/pc, desk, midi controllers and all associated cables/plugs feels like as much work to me as dragging a bag of records around.

[jimmy west]

no one has mentioned what the crowd wants i know on my behalf its more visually pleasing to me to see djs on vinyl as it looks and adds to the whole experinece of goin out to a party or club i ve got nothing against cds as it is good for the dj to be bangin out the freshest tunes theve just created but we dont want to be goin down the road of watchin one man behind a laptop playin with live but with the exception of an inventive pa or in conjuction with vinyl

[Technobitch]

no one has mentioned what the crowd wants i know on my behalf its more visually pleasing to me to see djs on vinyl as it looks and adds to the whole experinece of goin out to a party or club i ve got nothing against cds as it is good for the dj to be bangin out the freshest tunes theve just created but we dont want to be goin down the road of watchin one man behind a laptop playin with live but with the exception of an inventive pa or in conjuction with vinyl

im always in the crowd, at the front generally as i like to see the dj mixing their set, i dont think it matters what equipment they are using as long as what they are doing it well! cd decks, 1210, both are good, and the dj's can use both to express their talent!

[Technobitch]

no one has mentioned what the crowd wants i know on my behalf its more visually pleasing to me to see djs on vinyl as it looks and adds to the whole experinece of goin out to a party or club i ve got nothing against cds as it is good for the dj to be bangin out the freshest tunes theve just created but we dont want to be goin down the road of watchin one man behind a laptop playin with live but with the exception of an inventive pa or in conjuction with vinyl

im always in the crowd, at the front generally as i like to see the dj mixing their set, i dont think it matters what equipment they are using as long as what they are doing it well! cd decks, 1210, both are good, and the dj's can use both to express their talent!

not forgetting laptop/pc etc, all do the same job at the end of the day (some maybe more technically advanced than others) but all play music and put smilling faces on the crowd!

[djfase]

I feel that going to a club to listen to dj mix records adds to the experience. I personally like to see the dj spinning records and not stood behind some laptop. It adds to the club feel

I used to love waiting for my tunes to be delivered. Getting home from work and seeing the parcel sitting there waiting to be ripped open and the slammed onto the decks and played loud.

Times and technology and changing all the time and its all about personal choice like everything is. So each to their own.

But my own opinion is that when i go to see a dj, i wanna see him spinnng vinyl and not cds. If u wanna play cds sit at home in front of the stereo.

Thats just my personal opinion.

[Technobitch]

can see your point, one thig about cd decks and live PA is that it means the dj's can play their tunes that they have just made so its like getting an exclusive

[dirty_bass]

Yep, I don`t see any skill difference, actually on some CD decks it`s harder to mix with them, than it is 1200`s, so the DJ is probably working harder.
Laptop DJing as opposed to live PA, can be a little inactive, but then, with the mechanical task of getting 2 pieces of plastic spinning in sync out of the equation, the DJ has more time to spend on the actual CREATIVE part of mixing, so they should keep themselves busy with this aspect.
It is all horses for courses, but essentially none are better or worse, and it`s only through education that perceptions will change about DJing, and what "is" and isn`t DJing.
When it comes down to it, if your gonna use the fake argument, then we can take it all the way back to an old argument, and say that all the music the DJ`s are playing is fake anyway, because the people that made the music didn`t play any of the instruments, they used sequencers, which is cheating and isn`t work.
In fact, what we should be doing is dancing round a fire, naked, while the witchdoctor, or shamen, bangs on some logs and animal skulls, cos that`s proper. Mixing on decks is soooo fake mate.

[massplanck]

[quote="dirty_bass"], but then, with the mechanical task of getting 2 pieces of plastic spinning in sync out of the equation, the DJ has more time to spend on the actual CREATIVE part of mixing, so they should keep themselves busy with this aspect.
[quote]

I agree a bit but disagree with what you said above.

(a) Getting two records in sync on a set of decks is actuallly a whole lot of FUN! :shock:

(b) I drop the needle constantly all over the place within tunes when mixing.. for breaks. intros.. back to the start.. chop in the end.. into again. I dont want to have to ****ing plan or agonise myself over how to do this fast on a laptop.

(c)I like having the cunting thing in my hand. The same way i dont ride a virtual bike to work or download the latest virtual guitar plugin as opposed to just picking up and playing one.

(d)I do use/have used songs from a laptop/abelton in sets and would happily use a CD deck.. but its not mutually exclusive. Use all formats at the same time.. then you can get ALL the benfits.

as for people complaining about dragging a record bag around with them.. whats so great about dragging 2500 grand worth of flimsy equipment around to a rowdy gig and having to set it up and protect it from twats who keeping spilling beer around it.

[dirty_bass]

as for people complaining about dragging a record bag around with them.. whats so great about dragging 2500 grand worth of flimsy equipment around to a rowdy gig and having to set it up and protect it from twats who keeping spilling beer around it.

Yep, that`s a pain alright.

[paranoiduk]

it looks to us like vinyl is on its way out. less people are buying it. times are changing and like it or not, i think you are all gonna have to get used to it. at the end of the day(at night, and usually in a club) as long as the jocks are playing some good shit, does it really matter what format it is delivered to us all in? love it or not, its not about the format to us(the fans), its the music thats the real deal.

[Miromiric]

pleasing people by taking out vinyls from the bag and such? :pray:

[gumpy green]

couldnt care what the rest do i will always use vinyl(and fx)as my main djing tool.......i do plan to add maybe a laptop or some hardware to add some of my own stuff(once its ready) . Vinyl just feels proper and has that collectable thingy to it which i luv. i also feel that its stoppin piracy withing the small net of djing....vinyl died and i had to use cd/mp3 i know i would steal......u cant steal record very easyily.

when in a club i prefer to see a dj using vinyl and when it comes to live sets i luv seeing a desk full of toys.

maybe i just luv knowing the artist had to work to get his shit to the gig...

[Jay Pace]

I really like having something in my hand, and I like the tactility of a turntable, so I bought final scratch. Digital doesn't have to mean CDs.

But I think its irrelevant - put in a good performance, rock a crowd and nobody gives two hoots about what medium you are playing from.

For those who think laptops sets look dull - check out Tim Exile's vid on the Native Instruments site. They are only as dull as the artist.

Personally I would like to see the end of the superstar djs playing fetishised vinyl being the epitome of cool.
I'd rather the emphasis was on the music, the crowd and the party. Everything else is pretty superficial.

Out of every major music forum I've seen BOA is the most forward thinking in terms of accepting new technology.
Full credit to techno for actually pushing things forward rather than treading water and crying about the old days...

[JamieBall]

I was off on my travels at the weekend and absolutely HATED carrying my records again. Not played vinyl for quite a while as I got spine problems and have been warned off lugging it around by the doc but OOOF. I thought I'd do it but I'd forgotten what 100 odd records weigh.

Also, I had to check them in as they were over 10kg and the airline weren't exactly being flexible. Then I had to wait for 3 hours at the destination for them to turn up as they'd been sent to the wrong place. Great.

Once I got them there was more lugging around to get to where I was meant to be.

Now, the upside of the whole thing is that I really enjoyed playing them on the night.

However, I'm going to test/invest in one of the final scratch clones (or perhaps the original) as it's just more practical. Need one you can scratch without trouble on, though. One that keeps up (any suggestions). I do like the feel of playing 'records', maybe I will also check for the new technics CD decks but they're far from being universally installed in clubs so I guess that'd mean more lugging around of stuff.

Also I can only carry so many pieces of vinyl, so there's always going to be some that I wished I had but couldn't take. If I had a hard drive full of every record I have I don't think I'd be wanting for much, and I could take a laptop in hand baggage with 2/3 timecode records no problem. This would definitely guarantee that I could play to the best of my abilities with the full army, rather than just doing sorties with a small detachment of troops (if you get my meaning).

I don't see that it makes any difference playing off of vinyl/pc/cd whatever, as long as the music is good I don't care. It's not the medium, it's the tunes and the performance as far as I'm concerned.

It may sound like a small gripe and I'm sure people out there will think that it's not much to suffer but I've had a CRUSHING headache for the last 3 days and it ain't fun.

[kai]

There is now the ability to produce and go for the real low thick frequencies and absolute clarity mi/highs that are not well translated on vinyl. For my ears, I cant stand the flat sound of vinyl anymore.



Is this true?

I ask the question not because I doubt it is true, but because I have always been led to believe that digitalising music reduces the quality compared to vinyl, as part of the process by which soundwaves are digitalised chops off the top and bottom ends of the sound spectrum in order to convert the wave to a stream of 1's and 0's.

I could be completely wrong here, which is why I ask the question.

[TechMouse]

Is this true?

Yes, CDs are better quality than vinyl on all but the most expensive of high-end audiophile equipment... and even then, you'd have to have superhuman hearing to notice the difference.

The difference is particularly noticable in the low end, because of the RIAA EQ curve.

http://www.beigebag.com/images/riaa/riaa_1_1.jpg

This is applied to vinyl recordings so that the needle doesn't jump out of the groove when loud bass occurs in a recording. It's why you need a preamp for vinyl.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIAA_equalization

[Jay Pace]

Its not true mate.

Compressing things down to low bitrate MP3 chops off the top and bottom, but playing a WAV is playing what the producer had in their studio.
Vinyl can not produce ultra low bass frequencies or high frequencies. Vinyl has a characteristic "warm" sound (or muddy, depending on how you look at it), but a properly set up digital PA has tighter bass and crisper highs.



However, I'm going to test/invest in one of the final scratch clones (or perhaps the original) as it's just more practical. Need one you can scratch without trouble on, though. One that keeps up (any suggestions).


Rane Serato Scratch is best if you want to scratch. Final scatch has a nicer interface which is basically a cut down version of NI's Traktor. I rate Final Scratch 2 very highly, but I'm not a scratch dj. Turntablists seem to rate the Rane version, and go so far as to claim that you can't tell that you're not playing real vinyl.

[TechMouse]

It's like the old analogue vs Digital Synth debate. What most people mistake for quality in real analogue synthesizers is the circuits misbehaving and distorting in their own particular idioms. Digital Synths are actually much more crisp and accurate.

[kai]

Hmm, all makes sense - cheers guys.

[kai]

Thinking things through from there then, it seems to me that while the issue of quality of the digital music is usually a non-issue, so to speak, it does become one when people are playing mp3's – which is the preferred file format for many DJ's playing off CD's as they can be easily downloaded and burnt to disk from many a website.

So what is the difference in quality between mp3 and vinyl, as this is the most commonly used digital format, discounting PA's played on laptop's where the WAV file is present?

[Jay Pace]

Depends on the bitrate.

A 128kbps MP3 sounds ok on your walkman to an untrained ear, and a pretty crap on a PA. Vinyl wins.
192kbps is a little better, but probably not as good as vinyl.
320kbps is pretty much spot on. You'd struggle to hear the difference between that and a WAV, even on a PA. Much better than vinyl.

All depends on the encoding rate.

[kai]

;) Cheers mate.

[TechMouse]

as this is the most commonly used digital format, discounting PA's played on laptop's where the WAV file is present?
I'd disagree, as given access to a CD player I'll often play tracks off CDs which I've bought...

But Jay's right.

mp3 sounds poo on a rig until you get up to 256kbps or higher.

Past that, it might as well be CD.

(IMHO).

[Miromiric]

192 is ok, you can notice the difference, although i bet 90% of people can not. especially not on a big club soundsystem. noone can there. :mashed: :dance:

[paranoiduk]

maybe if all clubs around the globe had a state of the art sound system we might notice the difference, but unfortunately most techno clubs are gonna find it hard to supply a system of the quality that would enable most of us to tell the difference. a lot of clubs still run a mono system, so again its got to be down to quality tunes. if the music really rocks the house, only fools will be complaining at the end of the night, because no matter what the medium is, its all about the music, and i think that maybe we should all bear that in mind.

[djshiva]

However the fact that D&B more than any other genre controls new music through the use of dubplates probably has got something to do with his comments....not very easy to control the burning of cd's is it? and if you don't have exclusive music to offer..well what have you got? not a lot....

that hits it right on the head there. that has always been my issue with DnB (incidentally, i used to play it as well as techno). the one major thing that separated the top names for years was access to dubs. that said, most of the big names that i have heard on the decks were utter shite. the only reason they were there was having the dubs. now when some hot bedroom jock can throw down a set of unreleased tunes from his mates, as well as drop vinyl, and blow away the top names because they have really worked on their skills in those bedroom years, it makes the competition a bit tougher and a bit more egalitarian (in my opinion).

so now what's required from the top jocks is to keep innovating to stay on top, instead of resting on their past accomplishments and dubplates...

awwww...i am cryin' for em. really. :eh:

[SlavikSvensk]

It's like the old analogue vs Digital Synth debate. What most people mistake for quality in real analogue synthesizers is the circuits misbehaving and distorting in their own particular idioms. Digital Synths are actually much more crisp and accurate.

it has to do with the human ear too. recorded analog frequeny range is similar to our own. digital's more accurate high-end can sound unnatural to us. doesn't mean it IS unnatural, just seems that way to many people...

[G-BO]

some good points made, but nobody is really denying that one is better than the other without each having their pros and cons, i hate the fact that once certain djs have slaved their guts out to get them certain tunes by travelling miles and listening to thousands and thousands of sh*tty old and new records to get that perfect collection for some snot nosed bangwagon jumpers to get their mummies or daddies to buy them a laptop and fs and presto a week later they basically got a vinyl friendly collection of tunes much greater than yours


id rather have a tangible listening hobby than be a internet file sharing moron who dosent know what the game is really all about

[TechMouse]

i hate the fact that once certain djs have slaved their guts out to get them certain tunes by travelling miles and listening to thousands and thousands of sh*tty old and new records to get that perfect collection for some snot nosed bangwagon jumpers to get their mummies or daddies to buy them a laptop and fs and presto a week later they basically got a vinyl friendly collection of tunes much greater than yours
That's a bit of a shaky argument.

It's a bit like when old people go on about us young'uns "not knowing we're born" because they had to walk everywhere and get their water out of a well, when we use cars / public transport and have clean running water. Of course, they don't genuinely for a minute wish that we had to go through the discomfort - they're just bitter because they did.

OK, so you've had to go to great lengths to get your vinyl collection... are you honestly telling me it wasn't kind of fun along the way? If not, then fair enough, you have my sympathy... why did you bother?

If it was fun, then the fact that "some snot nosed bangwagon jumpers" can have the "same" music for free shouldn't bother you - because you know (as I do) that sometimes the point of a journey is not the destination, but what happens along the way.


id rather have a tangible listening hobby than be a internet file sharing moron who dosent know what the game is really all about
... and that's the key, isn't it.

We'll keep buying vinyl regardless of it's shortcomings because it's cool, and we love it. But that doesn't mean we should necessarily shun newer technology. The real winners will embrace everything and use it all to it's various advantages.

[Jay Pace]

Not sure the game is really all about slaving your guts out to get tunes mate.

Its about having your own style, connecting with a crowd and having solid skills.
If a snot nose bandwagon jumper can achieve this by spending an hour on soulseek (and trust me, that is never going to happen) then fair play to them.
One of the things about filesharing is that people download thousands of records, then never really listen to any of them. They just hoard them on their hard drives.

The people who invested time, effort and money in the scene are the people who understand it, and make good djs.
Having access to loads of records doesn't make you a good dj.
Recognising what makes a good tune, and learning how and when to play it makes you a good dj.