The international view of London techno

[Centurian]

Ok, i'm sure this has all been done before...

After reading comments on another site that London produced techno is classified around the world as hard dance and not techno, personally, i protest.

To settle the core i thought that this would be the best place i know of on-line to see what the techno people really think.

So what are your views, is London techno just another part of hard dance and doesn't really fall into the techno banner?

Or are these poeple taking away a label of which the London 'techno' artists deserve?

[marginmaster]

sounds like they talkin shite to me

[Centurian]

That's what i thought.

[eyeswithoutaface]

there not talking shite, quite dismissive really that. You have to remember that people abroad probably dont understand the history and heritage behind London Techno. It is techno yes, but its easy to see why its miscontrued as hard dance. Alot of it would benefit from slower bpm's maybe, and alot of it does sound similiar, too similiar infact, probably the main reason why i never got into it really, and alot of the artists do crossover between techno and hardhouse labels and artists, DAVE on Vicious Circle with Glazby etc etc, just depends on where your from and what London Techno means to you personally id say. Someone in say Greece or Bulgaria or what have you probably isnt going to be feeling the london squat, free party vibe so much as say someone living down Brick Lane.

[Centurian]

there not talking shite, quite dismissive really that. You have to remember that people abroad probably dont understand the history and heritage behind London Techno. It is techno yes, but its easy to see why its miscontrued as hard dance. Alot of it would benefit from slower bpm's maybe, and alot of it does sound similiar, too similiar infact, probably the main reason why i never got into it really, and alot of the artists do crossover between techno and hardhouse labels and artists, DAVE on Vicious Circle with Glazby etc etc, just depends on where your from and what London Techno means to you personally id say. Someone in say Greece or Bulgaria or what have you probably isnt going to be feeling the london squat, free party vibe so much as say someone living down Brick Lane.

Yeah, i see what your saying, there is that crossover there, i just think there's so much more output than the crossover tunes. i think it's unfair to paint every record with the same brush (so to speak).

In is spot on

[rhythmtech]

London techno (liberator crew et all) does have a loosly distinct sound to it and i can see why people classify sometimes classify it as hard dance. they both have a similiar driven feel at times. i think its attitude that gives the london sound that driven feel. But production wise they're very dissimler (excluding the xover records).

[dirty_bass]

London Techno doesn`t exist.
There is Acid Techno, which is a london sound, and does have a very distinct sound.
And techno that is made by people in london, which is pretty diverse.
The two are not the same.

[basslinejunkie]

of course its part of hard dance,all techno is if you get what i mean.no such thing as hard dance as a genre imo.

[basslinejunkie]

i mean an individual genre.

[Centurian]

of course its part of hard dance,all techno is if you get what i mean.no such thing as hard dance as a genre imo.

So you're the kind of person that uses 'hardance' as a collective term, that is indiscriminate to what music it is, as long as it bangs. Fair enough i suppose.

The thing is, i see hard dance as a collective term that veirs more towards hard house and hardtrance etc.

And techno (for me) is a collective term for the many subgenres that go below it, ie, acid, minimal, hard, banging, funky, tribal etc etc.

[dan the acid man]

of course its part of hard dance,all techno is if you get what i mean.no such thing as hard dance as a genre imo.

good point, :myagi: < mr myagi is proud

[Centurian]

London techno (liberator crew et all) does have a loosly distinct sound to it and i can see why people classify sometimes classify it as hard dance. they both have a similiar driven feel at times. i think its attitude that gives the london sound that driven feel. But production wise they're very dissimler (excluding the xover records).

Yeah, i see your point.

Although i don't think it's all that dissimilar tbh, the acid techno, yes, it's very established over here, but there's still 303 driven tracks being produced overseas, not quite the same style obviously, but not that far off either.

As for the funkier, harder side of things, i think that's where the similarities are between continents. There's plenty of tracks from all the leading artists around the world (including London) that you could put in a set and keep the flow and theme of the music.

[basslinejunkie]

of course its part of hard dance,all techno is if you get what i mean.no such thing as hard dance as a genre imo.

So you're the kind of person that uses 'hardance' as a collective term, that is indiscriminate to what music it is, as long as it bangs. Fair enough i suppose.

The thing is, i see hard dance as a collective term that veirs more towards hard house and hardtrance etc.

And techno (for me) is a collective term for the many subgenres that go below it, ie, acid, minimal, hard, banging, funky, tribal etc etc.

nah mate thats my point,the term hard dance is always appled too what is,infact either hard house or hard trance,therefore it doesnt exist as an indivadual genre.but the techno i like is usually either hard or dark,so it is hard dance music.not being arsey mate,this is just the way i see things :)

[eyeswithoutaface]

personal use of genre names aside i think its more than fair to say that in the UK hard dance is a term accredited to Hard House/Hard Trance and definately not techno

[BloodStar]

people in my country probably will not know too much about london techno., about its history and tradition. if we talk about uk techno, they will know birmingham, thats for sure + also other artists, but these will be classified as techno artists, no matter where they are based. when it comes to london techno; people who knows liberator crew will classify it as acid techno and no hard dance; i think.
hope this make a sense.

[Buttman]

I dunno what London techno is but I suppose it is that what you talk about on here so often that I have no clue about.. DAVE the Drummer, Liberator etc. Am I correct?

[Si the Sigh]

Yep, I'd say thats what this thread is about, the Liberators, etc, not techno that's produced in London.

[dan the acid man]

personal use of genre names aside i think its more than fair to say that in the UK hard dance is a term accredited to Hard House/Hard Trance and definately not techno

yeah, and for some reason, they always seem to play in big rooms, whatever they are :lol:

[Buttman]

I never heard it but my prejudices say it is mindless bang bang 145BPM music, an English version of Schranz..

[Centurian]

Yep, I'd say thats what this thread is about, the Liberators, etc, not techno that's produced in London.

Well yeah, they obviously have a large role in the discussion, but iv'e tried to keep the discussion as impartial as possible (still gonna say what i think though).

My point is, what do you think of the techno people who listen to something of a more Detroit nature classing the London techno circuit as harddance?

From what i can gather, it's promoters running a hard dance room with a techno room which is what causes people on the international circuit (Detroit etc) to pass off the London sound as hard dance. Which is what i don't really agree with.

[Centurian]

Techno is techno is techno, i can't see why you'd label it something else just because the room next door is running another stable.

[dirty_bass]

Well, I think it has fallen into being called hard dance due to the hard dance big names (shandy fartley, fergit etc) courting the london acid sound and artists.
So the music got absorbed by bigger names in the hard dance scene, and therefore associated to it.
Plus I also think later releases from some of the old acid techno mafia have actually pandered to the hard dance sound to a certain extent.
I`m not really sure if any of this matters, the idea of this type of music is just to get people jumping about, so moving into the hard dance arena you are gonna be presenting yourself to a more high energy crowd anyway.
Not my ting at all, but nowt wrong with it.

[rotten]

i also think it's kinda schranz. but what's about 65D Mavericks??? typical london techno or just outstanding?

[Miromiric]

been listening to one of the forementioned`s set last weekend and it sounded like hard"house" / harddance with technocuts and mixing techniques to me tbh.

[fresh_an_funky_design]

I never heard it but my prejudices say it is mindless bang bang 145BPM music, an English version of Schranz..


acid techno an english version of shranz???? i think not

[fresh_an_funky_design]

there is definelty a stigma associated with acid techno in some circles, which is so annoying. to me its just another sub genre such as tribal, funky etc.

[Miromiric]

let me put it this way: there is good acid techno and then there is london acid techno.

[dan the acid man]

let me put it this way: there is good acid techno and then there is london acid techno.

well i just like good acid techno, no matter where its from and who made it, and some of my favourite acid techno tracks have come from the london collective.

but its all just opinions about music at the end of the day.

can we go and enjoy ourselves now

[Miromiric]

i forgot to add IMHO ofcourse

[Miromiric]

i did not realize there was a collective, i just thought it is a silly name of some subgenre.

[Stella Boy]

but what's about 65D Mavericks??? typical london techno or just outstanding?

I was just about to say the same thing

[rotten]

next time u r the first, mate! :blush:

[The Divide]

I would say acid techno (london techno same thing) is a crossover between trance/acid/hard house and techno. I wouldn’t call an acid techno track techno because its acid techno, its as simple as that really. Seems there is a lot of people on here who call acid techno techno when techno is Ben Sims, Tanaka, Ruskin, Mills, Surgeon whatever

It would make more sense to call 65D mavericks london techno than calling acid; london techno imo :lol:

[Barely Human]

Why are people even bothing to discuss this? Is anything you say on hear going to change anything in the way of genres and sub genres? Isnt it all just music??

"My techno is not the same as your techno because techno techno came from my mums arse hole, and your techno, which is actually called "techno techno techno", is only played by dj's with Y-Fronts on their heads, inside a very large dishwasher. Oh, and dont get me started on Techno Techno Techno Techno, because no-one overseas gets it because they wernt born in pontyfract. I think thats why it gets pushed in with vocal house because some guy who makes house was born there."

[rhythmtech]

Why are people even bothing to discuss this? Is anything you say on hear going to change anything in the way of genres and sub genres? Isnt it all just music??

"My techno is not the same as your techno because techno techno came from my mums arse hole, and your techno, which is actually called "techno techno techno", is only played by dj's with Y-Fronts on their heads, inside a very large dishwasher. Oh, and dont get me started on Techno Techno Techno Techno, because no-one overseas gets it because they wernt born in pontyfract. I think thats why it gets pushed in with vocal house because some guy who makes house was born there."

:myagi:

wise words daniel san.

[teknorich]

:lol: IQ mate, you should be on stage!!

I downloaded a couple of DAVE the Drummer sets a while ago and, to be honest, they did sound hard housey to me. I think it´s the bassline. It just doesn´t sound "right" for techno. Kind of like with Some Mauro Picotto tracks - even if it´s a good track you can still hear that he is primarily a hard house / trance DJ, and that he produces from that angle. The tracks are tough, acidy, techy etc, but with a kind of bouncy bassline which does remind me of hard house.

I think Mark can probably add to this, cos he´s played techno at club nights organised by hard house organisations. Did he have to alter what he played to fit their sound more? Did he play stuff with a different b-line, to fit more into the hard house sound? I don´t think Slinky would appreciate if you dropped some Jeff Mills...

[rhythmtech]

what i think everybody is forgetting is that the hardhouse similarities only cropped up the last few years. i personally think that hard house has been moving towards the techno sound rather than the other way around. look at people like jamie taylor - considered a h/house dj but his productions are becoming slammin techno.
and either way WHO CARES. Techno is evolving in new directions finally. I dont care what anyone wants to call the sound i like... cause i like it.

[dan the acid man]

Why are people even bothing to discuss this? Is anything you say on hear going to change anything in the way of genres and sub genres? Isnt it all just music??

"My techno is not the same as your techno because techno techno came from my mums arse hole, and your techno, which is actually called "techno techno techno", is only played by dj's with Y-Fronts on their heads, inside a very large dishwasher. Oh, and dont get me started on Techno Techno Techno Techno, because no-one overseas gets it because they wernt born in pontyfract. I think thats why it gets pushed in with vocal house because some guy who makes house was born there."

hahaha, classic :lol: :lol: :toast:

[The Divide]

Why are people even bothing to discuss this? Is anything you say on hear going to change anything in the way of genres and sub genres? Isnt it all just music??

"My techno is not the same as your techno because techno techno came from my mums arse hole, and your techno, which is actually called "techno techno techno", is only played by dj's with Y-Fronts on their heads, inside a very large dishwasher. Oh, and dont get me started on Techno Techno Techno Techno, because no-one overseas gets it because they wernt born in pontyfract. I think thats why it gets pushed in with vocal house because some guy who makes house was born there."

Steady on All, its a discussion forum, people tend to discuss things on them

:lol:

I dont see why this subject winds you up so much when you dont even like much techno. Well not the 'real authentic 100% genuine' techno that only I know understand being illuminated and at the 33rd degree of the society of techno

[dan the acid man]

:lol: IQ mate, you should be on stage!!

I downloaded a couple of DAVE the Drummer sets a while ago and, to be honest, they did sound hard housey to me. I think it´s the bassline. It just doesn´t sound "right" for techno. Kind of like with Some Mauro Picotto tracks - even if it´s a good track you can still hear that he is primarily a hard house / trance DJ, and that he produces from that angle. The tracks are tough, acidy, techy etc, but with a kind of bouncy bassline which does remind me of hard house.

I think Mark can probably add to this, cos he´s played techno at club nights organised by hard house organisations. Did he have to alter what he played to fit their sound more? Did he play stuff with a different b-line, to fit more into the hard house sound? I don´t think Slinky would appreciate if you dropped some Jeff Mills...

eh ?, are you on about a live pa set here, if so, then most of henrys basslines are usually sub bass rolling type basslines, like you find in most forms of techno anyway.

if it was a dj set, then his sets usually consist of all types of techno

[teknorich]

I think it was a set form pure filth, about a year ago, but I could be wrong. Just seemed a bit fast, bouncy, liverly etc in the same vein as hard house, And I have to admit I deleted it. (Sorry Dave!)

:oops:

[Barely Human]

Why are people even bothing to discuss this? Is anything you say on hear going to change anything in the way of genres and sub genres? Isnt it all just music??

"My techno is not the same as your techno because techno techno came from my mums arse hole, and your techno, which is actually called "techno techno techno", is only played by dj's with Y-Fronts on their heads, inside a very large dishwasher. Oh, and dont get me started on Techno Techno Techno Techno, because no-one overseas gets it because they wernt born in pontyfract. I think thats why it gets pushed in with vocal house because some guy who makes house was born there."

Steady on All, its a discussion forum, people tend to discuss things on them

:lol:

I dont see why this subject winds you up so much when you dont even like much techno. Well not the 'real authentic 100% genuine' techno that only I know understand being illuminated and at the 33rd degree of the society of techno

<rant>
I like a track if i like a track. I tend to like the harder styles of music, so i will always check them out. I dont tend to like loopy rythmic techno, and im not into the oldschool sound. However, i do like some tracks, and i wont dissmiss that style because i dont like a lot of it. And i certainly wont go on an internet forum and argue "where it came from", and how it isnt a vaild sub-genrer of techno. Or how acid techno is detroying the scene and all that shit.

The problem with most dance music, and techno espeicially is that people like a lot of people on here seam to think that discussing it in a derogatory way will make the scene better and somehow boost thier staus in the techno society by acting like they know all about the history and the best parts of the music and shit. Its all bolocks. It almost as if with some people that prooving your right is more important than the actual music. "Its not london techno, its acid techno", "no its not", "yes it is", "well, its from london". Bloody hell, does it really matter. </rant>

[rhythmtech]

:shock:

[dan the acid man]

well said iq

[The Divide]

Why are people even bothing to discuss this? Is anything you say on hear going to change anything in the way of genres and sub genres? Isnt it all just music??

"My techno is not the same as your techno because techno techno came from my mums arse hole, and your techno, which is actually called "techno techno techno", is only played by dj's with Y-Fronts on their heads, inside a very large dishwasher. Oh, and dont get me started on Techno Techno Techno Techno, because no-one overseas gets it because they wernt born in pontyfract. I think thats why it gets pushed in with vocal house because some guy who makes house was born there."

Steady on All, its a discussion forum, people tend to discuss things on them

:lol:

I dont see why this subject winds you up so much when you dont even like much techno. Well not the 'real authentic 100% genuine' techno that only I know understand being illuminated and at the 33rd degree of the society of techno

<rant>
I like a track if i like a track. I tend to like the harder styles of music, so i will always check them out. I dont tend to like loopy rythmic techno, and im not into the oldschool sound. However, i do like some tracks, and i wont dissmiss that style because i dont like a lot of it. And i certainly wont go on an internet forum and argue "where it came from", and how it isnt a vaild sub-genrer of techno. Or how acid techno is detroying the scene and all that shit.

The problem with most dance music, and techno espeicially is that people like a lot of people on here seam to think that discussing it in a derogatory way will make the scene better and somehow boost thier staus in the techno society by acting like they know all about the history and the best parts of the music and shit. Its all bolocks. It almost as if with some people that prooving your right is more important than the actual music. "Its not london techno, its acid techno", "no its not", "yes it is", "well, its from london". Bloody hell, does it really matter. </rant>


Humans tend to like to pigeon hole things as it makes life simpler, like if saw a flyer for a night and it said on it 'Techno' and I went to find acid djs playing the 303 stuff I would wonder why it didn’t say ‘Acid techno’ on it. Acid techno is just as valid but with it having a different sound I would give it a different label. I wouldn’t exactly say there’s anything derogatory about that, the sky isn’t falling. Its just another way of making life more simpler. I mean we dont call Hardstyle Trance we call it Hardstyle

Back to the 1st post, I would say its not hard dance or techno, it’s a bit of both and I didn’t say the to make my techno willy look big or to wind Q slut up

[Centurian]

Why are people even bothing to discuss this? Is anything you say on hear going to change anything in the way of genres and sub genres? Isnt it all just music??

"My techno is not the same as your techno because techno techno came from my mums arse hole, and your techno, which is actually called "techno techno techno", is only played by dj's with Y-Fronts on their heads, inside a very large dishwasher. Oh, and dont get me started on Techno Techno Techno Techno, because no-one overseas gets it because they wernt born in pontyfract. I think thats why it gets pushed in with vocal house because some guy who makes house was born there."

Steady on All, its a discussion forum, people tend to discuss things on them

:lol:

I dont see why this subject winds you up so much when you dont even like much techno. Well not the 'real authentic 100% genuine' techno that only I know understand being illuminated and at the 33rd degree of the society of techno

<rant>
I like a track if i like a track. I tend to like the harder styles of music, so i will always check them out. I dont tend to like loopy rythmic techno, and im not into the oldschool sound. However, i do like some tracks, and i wont dissmiss that style because i dont like a lot of it. And i certainly wont go on an internet forum and argue "where it came from", and how it isnt a vaild sub-genrer of techno. Or how acid techno is detroying the scene and all that shit.

The problem with most dance music, and techno espeicially is that people like a lot of people on here seam to think that discussing it in a derogatory way will make the scene better and somehow boost thier staus in the techno society by acting like they know all about the history and the best parts of the music and shit. Its all bolocks. It almost as if with some people that prooving your right is more important than the actual music. "Its not london techno, its acid techno", "no its not", "yes it is", "well, its from london". Bloody hell, does it really matter. </rant>

Man, you crack me up :lol:

All true as well!

Can i just say that an arguement was not the attention, more like a discussion on how the industry is segrated in some way and just learning about what other people think about it.

I mean, i am a lover of techno, personally, i'm indiscriminate, i'll quite happily go out and listen to Detroit and have to put up with electro and i'd do the same with the London sound and put up with watever else next door aswell.

Also, i don't think all of the output coming from SUF inparticular is acid techno either, i mean listen to something from Ematic, or SP Groove, is that really all acid techno anyway?
I just see people casting all of the output off as a certain catergory when personally i don't see why, maybe i pay more attention or something, i dunno.

*shrugs*

I guess the reason i brought the subject up is that i'd like to see more varied line ups,something that merges all stables together a bit more. Yes Sth America are up for it, some of Europe too.

Where i see the problem is when the likes of Dave Clarke, or Jeff Mills are never, ever seen on the same bill as D.a.v.e The Drummer or Chris Lib'r, why is that?
It's really annoying tbh, i'd love to see a varied line up with them all on the same bill, it would include much more variation and make a night out much more interesting musically, imo.

Still, i agree, who really cares what you call it, if you like it you like it!

[davethedrummer]

there is no such thing as london techno
it is an abstract concept that has been given a name to help people discuss it in internet forums.
there is no one style or sound of london
it is unfair to class any form of music by location , i´m sure terry mitchell from dark house music , or marco lenzi from molecular or nils hess from eukatech or lawrie pounding grooves or rob stow or jerome hill would agree.

the simple truth with all music is:

if you dont like it...............................go find something you do like.

[Miromiric]

if you dont like it...............................go find something you do like.


or diss the one you dont.

[MARKEG]

or diss the one you dont.

and what a ridiculous waste of effort that is. :devilish:

[Miromiric]

:P

[Centurian]

there is no such thing as london techno
it is an abstract concept that has been given a name to help people discuss it in internet forums.
there is no one style or sound of london
it is unfair to class any form of music by location , i´m sure terry mitchell from dark house music , or marco lenzi from molecular or nils hess from eukatech or lawrie pounding grooves or rob stow or jerome hill would agree.

the simple truth with all music is:

if you dont like it...............................go find something you do like.

So you agree then ;)

[danielmarshall]

I got dragged along to see Judge Jules a few months back and he played a set of pretty much hard percussive techno the entire night with the occational hard trance track. To my surprise I thoroughly enjoyed myself (though the pingers were really potent :P). I'm glad more people are being exposed to underground music, and it's a trend I hope continues. I just wish this sort of thing was going on when I was into trance in the 90s.

[mattboyslim]

[quote="IQ"][quote="The Divide"][quote=IQ]
Where i see the problem is when the likes of Dave Clarke, or Jeff Mills are never, ever seen on the same bill as D.a.v.e The Drummer or Chris Lib'r, why is that?
!

they refuse to play alongside 'london techno' jocks. techno politics one might say

[gumpy green]

its all fukin techno...no matter what label you like to call it.....i still class hard house/trance as techno..just really horrible shite techno with the same formula..

[fresh_an_funky_design]

[quote="IQ"][quote=The Divide][quote=IQ]
Where i see the problem is when the likes of Dave Clarke, or Jeff Mills are never, ever seen on the same bill as D.a.v.e The Drummer or Chris Lib'r, why is that?
!

they refuse to play alongside 'london techno' jocks. techno politics one might say

i highly doubt that... that'd be the promoters

[mattboyslim]

[quote=IQ][quote=The Divide][quote=IQ]
Where i see the problem is when the likes of Dave Clarke, or Jeff Mills are never, ever seen on the same bill as D.a.v.e The Drummer or Chris Lib'r, why is that?
!

they refuse to play alongside 'london techno' jocks. techno politics one might say

i highly doubt that... that'd be the promotersi know promoters who have tried to get dave clarke, jeff mills etc on at events with dave the drummer, chris lib etc.
they refuse to play, even if its in a different room

[RDR]

Another pointless genre policing argument. I prefer the eastern european way of looking at hard electronic dance music...

its all a "Techno paaarrttty!" and just leave it at that.

[RDR]

its all fukin techno...no matter what label you like to call it.....i still class hard house/trance as techno..just really horrible shite techno with the same formula..

it CAN be formulaic.

sometimes it rocks tho. Its the same in every genre of music since the dawn of time. Lots of it is shite, but there are a few tracks that REALLY stand out.

now where's my log drum, im gonna blow the neanderthal scene apart.

[davethedrummer]

[quote=IQ][quote=The Divide][quote=IQ]
Where i see the problem is when the likes of Dave Clarke, or Jeff Mills are never, ever seen on the same bill as D.a.v.e The Drummer or Chris Lib'r, why is that?
!

they refuse to play alongside 'london techno' jocks. techno politics one might say


i highly doubt that... that'd be the promotersi know promoters who have tried to get dave clarke, jeff mills etc on at events with dave the drummer, chris lib etc.
they refuse to play, even if its in a different room

actually i'm not so sure about that mate.
there was one famous techno dj from germany who at first refused
but once they offered to pay him properly he lightened up ( surprise )
and in fact we've played together a few times and he's always been a gent to me.
so i think it could possibly have been his agent who caused the problem.

anyway i don't think this is really true.
i know there's a stigma around us london free party types , but our scene is really strong right now and guest djs have all come away with good memories when they have played for us.
so thats enough for me.

anyway , i don't particularly want to play alongside mills or dave clark etc etc as the party would have to be in a posh club and the promoters would have their financial asses on the line , meaning i would probably not get paid very well and probably not enjoy myself so much either.

no , i like the way things are , we get the odd guest ( kanzyani , mulero , the youngsters , etc etc ) and these guys are about the right level for our kind of events and the crowd like them too.
the london squat crowd are nowhere near as " acid techno " as people seem to think , they have very broad tastes ranging from deep tech/house right up to hard as **** schranz , basically if you are good at what you do
they'll like it.

and that, my friends, is the way it ought to be.

[Adey]

SUF label, WAHWAH, Skank, Routemaster and that is pretty happy hard dancy to me. Powertools+Hydraulix is mainstream party funk I could take any hard trance fan out to. 4x4 has much more originality. Most stuff I've heard from the SUF crew still panders to a very strict 4/4 bang bang and phrase structure. I guess outside London and the UK - there's alot more experimentation going on and boundaries being pushed with beat structures, sounds and structure - mainly because I think theyre not as norrow minded when it comes to techno. The majority of UK punters just want to hear a formula, neck loads of pills/K and spaz out... not be challenged and hear something different. Imagine that? challenged, techno... ?

Enjoy your bang bang party techno but don't be supprise if the scene gets lumped in with hard dance - Lisa Lashes, BK, Scott Project etc... especially when you get crossover producing with the likes of Anne Savage and an enless push-button formula like RAW.

[AcidTrash]

I'm quite looking forward to the new Pirates of the Caribbean movie.