famous produers use Reason 2.5?

[tekara]

does anyone know if there are any famous techno producers that use reason 2.5 to make their tracks?

it seems like in all the interviews i have read, everyone is using a typical setup such as a powermac g4 with logic as a sequencer plugged in with hardware and software applications...

i know kanzleramt released an album called Reasons that was strictly produced with the program, and somebody told me adam jay uses it extensively...but im curious if anyone famous also acknowl;edges this piece of software...

thanks

[miromiric.]

miroslav uses reason. isn`t that good enough for you? :?

[massplanck]

does anyone know if there are any famous techno producers that use reason 2.5 to make their tracks?

it seems like in all the interviews i have read, everyone is using a typical setup such as a powermac g4 with logic as a sequencer plugged in with hardware and software applications...

i know kanzleramt released an album called Reasons that was strictly produced with the program, and somebody told me adam jay uses it extensively...but im curious if anyone famous also acknowl;edges this piece of software...

thanks

I'm not sure if he uses it all the time but what the **** was Leandro Gamez doing using a Reason rex preset in that last one he released on phont! no effort to disguise it!" I still love his tracks though :)

[thoughtintruder]

Yea apparently Alexander Kowalski uses reason. Nice interview at steinberg.

http://www.steinberg.net/en/ps/community/artist_news/stories/kowalski/index.php?sid=0

[audioinjection]

I love Kowalski's work, he's dope!

[professor]

Reason has a tin-like metallic sound. They've got to be using something along with it...

[Adverse]

hmm i use reason a lot explain this tin sound.. i can get some pretty nice stuff out of reason but i feel it's time to move on from it. just curious professor

[professor]

Adverse-

dunno...the sound is thin...yes, thin. Can't put my fingure on it. It's like when I hear stuff I've made with Reason, it sounds like reason. Maybe it's psycosomatic, but I use Logic now and the sound is about 100% fatter...it really fills the room.

I still rewire reason, or just save loops as .wav and import them into logic, but the samples seem to lack a certain life of their own. Anyone else agree? Maybe just the refills I've used, but i've gott'n loads off the propellerheads website and can't imagine that they are all sh-t.

Then of course it could just be the voices...

[miromiric.]

yep i agree. reason is nice and easy so i too use it in rewire or extract loops from it. but fattness i get from reaktor or sum synth.

[The Divide]

Reason sounding thin! Thats interesting. I too have been convinced this. I just thought it was me/the sounds i was using. I only seen to notice this when its run stand alone. I just thought it was VST eq that was making it sound better.

But then, does it sound thin when rewired? Coz surley its using Logic/VST's digital to analoge conversion/processing then it cant. Or doesnt it work like that?

logics got some realy good Digital to analoge processing in it, it will sound much better.

bt now someone else has said this, then perhaps thats the case. It does seem to sound thin, esp in the mid-highs for me, then again. I have had some realy nice rides/open hi hats coming from it when rewired.

could be psychological?? maybe it sounds thin rewired.

I use reason a lot now, its so quick and easy. i like the way you can just flick the samples on the drum machine with the up and down buttons. All the basic parameters are there infront of you.

Tired running fruity studio as a vsti, it pissed me off coz it kept loosing synch and behaving erratic. Esp when creating a new sampler. Any why the **** do you have to click the stupid fruit botton to get into it. Why not have it in another window??

Reason is solid too, i dont think its ever crashed on me! :shock:

Does anyone know of a software drum machine for VST thats as quick and easy to use as Reason's?

[DJZeMig_L]

If u use reason rewired 2 cubase ... each instrument in a dif. audio track then the sound is Ok ... a long time ago some1 posted some tests on reason and fruity and surprisingly enougth reason reprodution isn't really that great (in fact the main reason for not accepting VST/ DX plug or synths is for the great computing going on 2 b able 2 get so many ins/ plug without hogging the CPU that much.. so some corners had 2 b cut) even against fruity... so 4 all these u start getting a feel 4 the particular reason character!!

I was never much of a reason user cause I hate the sequencing on it... it's also 2 much mouse clicks & drags 4 me!

Z

[tekara]

ze Migl,

what would you suggest to use? perhaps Logic or Cubase plugged in with soft and hardware synths?

because i have reason at home right now, and you guys are right, the sounds seem very soft and sweepy....i need something with more of a crunch. any suggestions for a computer-based software studio setup guys?

[Barely Human]

Get yourself a copy of Cubase SX, and get a copy of FL Studio. Then get all the vst's you can. I wouldnt recomend logic for completely software based work, but thats just my personal preferance.

[DJZeMig_L]

humm... I guess what ever workz 4 ya really... I would stick all sample playing inst. with in SX/ Logic enviorment.. well in fact really depends if u like or not the sound of each instrument.. I mean sometimes a little noise or distortion is what gives character 2 yer sound...
So I would probably move 2 a "bigger boy" and get some really good virtual instruments and some exelent plug ins! :)

Z

[Basil Rush]

Played with reason for the first time the other day... sounds like an old digital synth in someways and like a fat analogue monster in others. thinking of using it for getting some rough and interesting sounds out of the malstrom thingi synth ... was quite enjoying playing those but it def has a digital glitchy edge in some places.

[zaalmoetlos]

you can use a program called t-racks to make the sound a bit better but it stays dodgy and reason seems to add a lot of extra (off-key) tones to the tracks you make. Especially when you fill 'm up with many sounds, they just seem to appear out of nothing add a redrum and the irritating sounds just apear in samples allready used and layed out and they weren't before. Furthermore, they almost always turn up when you use the reverb which sounds a bit crap anyway...

does anybody know why this happens and if there's anything you can do about it

cheers

[djTequila]

The reverb in Reason 2.5 is a bit tastier, but I know what you mean by extra frequencies cropping up - there seems to be a problem with harmonic distortion. Also, there does seems to be a 'thinness' to the sound.

Although when I noticed this, I did an a/b with cubase and reason using the same drum samples in Redrum and Battery... The result sounded identical. I think the problem occurs more when layers are stacked on top of eachother - things get very muddy very quickly, and nothing sounds 'big' enough.

Thing is, now I don't like the sound of Cubase. Logic sounds far better to me!

Try burning each layer out as wav and loading them into Cubase or Logic. Use high bit rates and sample frequencies.

Or re-wiring into either sequencer. Cubase is easier to handle for this.

The Reason EQs are shit - no shelf/high pass filters. (Low pass is manageable with the filter unit. Not ideal though.) How are you expected to properly bracket your sounds?

Getting proper EQing on the sounds from Logic or waves EQs will help loads.

Tequila

[DJZeMig_L]

It's all 2 do with the way sound interacts with in itself... adding sounds will create 2 some degree some subtrations and some additions, making it "slightly" different ... test this by adding a few sounds together in a mix and u start 2 notice that there is always a few comon freq. that end up "naturally tweeked"... but this fenomenon is a bit different with in the digital medium and the analog (I would say brutally different)...

has 2 the all Cubase/ logic debate all I can say is that I've heard people rant about each 1 ...

But I'll grant that Logic native eq. is far superior 2 SX (which r absolute cra*).. but then with logic u have 2 add eq just like a plug in .. so they've invested in a poshy few options (lucky bastar** :P )... so I guess we Sx users go 2 SX eq. 4 simple tasks and 4 something like Waves 4 proper work! :)

PS - I wouldn't say Reason has harmonic distortion, that's what u get with valve technol. 4 instance... "harmonic" distortion by definition is sweet sounding sort saturated waves. I would probably risk saying the prob. with reason is more along the lines of quantisation noise... but I could b wrong ...


Z

[djTequila]

I am reliably informed that 'harmonic' distortion is anything that 'distorts' the audio signal by adding in extra harmonic information - new frequencies. This CAN be musical - as in the case of valve technology, where people buy a unit especially FOR the harmonic distortion - or it can be a pain in the arse - like my Gemini mixer with a relatively high level of harmonic distortion, which makes everything sound dirty and less separated.

People pay large amounts of money (like, around a grand for a DJ mixer) to remove this distortion so they can hear all the separate layers in the music clearly - or in the case of producers, put them there cleanly in the first place! I found things much easier to produce when I removed my DJ mixer from my production system. When I then went back to Reason, everything sounded cloudy again.

Think of it this way - if each layer in Reason has a little harmonic distortion and they all stack up, you'll get loads. You don't use a valve unit on every layer in your track separately, do you?

I doubt individual layers in Reason display much in the way of quantization noise - according to the manual, the signal is kept as a floating-point representation throughout the system, until it hits the audio interface. (This is why you can't get the system to clip until that point!) It doesn't sound like quantization noise, either... That's pretty harsh stuff.

I'm saying that, yes, different sounds interact with eachother to create new information as phasing effects create new frequencies and calcel out others... But Reason seems to add *more* mudge to this process than Logic or Cubase.

;)

Try listening to a burned-off wave compared to Reason playing live - I seem to remember things sound sweeter when burned off. Especially if you're pushing the processor when you're making the track. It could be some optimization routine...

Finally, try using a vitalizer - either a plug-in, or get one second-hand. They're cheap now, and (so I'm told) attempt to remove 'wasted' frequencies. Sounds strange to me, but there you go! I've only heard good things about them.

Tequila

[zaalmoetlos]

ok guys thanks a lot for the answers

[The Divide]

Yeah good one.

That explains everything :wink:

[zaalmoetlos]

Finally, try using a vitalizer - either a plug-in, or get one second-hand. They're cheap now, and (so I'm told) attempt to remove 'wasted' frequencies. Sounds strange to me, but there you go! I've only heard good things about them.

Tequila

hi tequila, are there any you can recomend (plug-in wise)

cheers

[massplanck]

Try listening to a burned-off wave compared to Reason playing live - I seem to remember things sound sweeter when burned off. Especially if you're pushing the processor when you're making the track. It could be some optimization routine...

Tequila

Spot on. Reason 'dumbs down' the sound when playing live. It compromises sound quality to give you more CPU to play around with.
I'd still like to be able to hear what it 'really' sounds like before i bounce it down but if its going to be an improvement its going to be an improvement.

PS: Have an interesting article somewhere where some Roland or Yamaha bod waffles on about how certain drum machines & synths which 'took the market by storm' only sounded good because all the patches & kits were 'pre-eqed'. The 909 springs to mind. I'll try and dig it up because he addresses the whole 'reason sounds tinny' argument and relates it to the above....

I'm off rummaging.

[The Divide]

Does anyone know of a powerfull VSTi drum machine that you can EQ each sounds in.

That would be great

[DJZeMig_L]

Hey T,



Check this out... the post I was talkin about m8.

members.shaw.ca/stu.macQ/index.htm




I am reliably informed that 'harmonic' distortion is anything that 'distorts' the audio signal by adding in extra harmonic information...


Fair enought man.. it's just me, I think the "name" 4 it could have been better... as in the distortion is not always "harmonic2 in the good sense of the word, plus not all the distortions r indeed harmonics ... they can relate at pacial (overtone) levels aswell... I guess we're just being silly U r right anyways!












I doubt individual layers in Reason display much in the way of quantization noise - according to the manual,



yep ... it should all by "all singing and dancin'" 32 bit float. point sample accurate bla bla... but not many r in absolute...




It doesn't sound like quantization noise, either... That's pretty harsh stuff.


quantization noise is always there and everywhere digital but the amounts can b grater or smaller thus more noticeable or less... and aalthough a tiny fraction percievable not overwelming (so it wouldn't b so sso harsh... still some 8 bit stuff sound really sweet... some people still swear by they're 12 bit samplers ...)...

main prob here is a slight error (not constant) in phasing at sample level (probably responsable 4 most of the very slight quant. noise) and freq. reprodution generating the probs heard...









Try listening to a burned-off wave compared to Reason playing live - I seem to remember things sound sweeter when burned off. Especially if you're pushing the processor when you're making the track. It could be some optimization routine...


yep this is generally true but the more "pro" u move the less noticeable it becomes... It is very obvious when u r pushing the limit on the processor and u get those glitches from yer soundcard.. when u render they disapear.. mainly because it is rather less proc. hungry 2 render some math than having do do the same math math live on the spot and sending it 2 the soundcard!!


Z


try using reason only 4 it's instruments (the less processes u run thru the prog. the better u'll have yer sound I reckon).. do all the mixing on another more acurate source (eq each sound 2 the fundamental freq.s.. try 2 use a good eq. plug in)...



sorry 4 the head fuc* :(

[djTequila]

PS: Have an interesting article somewhere where some Roland or Yamaha bod waffles on about how certain drum machines & synths which 'took the market by storm' only sounded good because all the patches & kits were 'pre-eqed'. The 909 springs to mind. I'll try and dig it up because he addresses the whole 'reason sounds tinny' argument and relates it to the above....

I'm off rummaging.

Heh heh! THOUGHT so... Especially when I was having so many groove problems with Reason (which I now put down to incorrect EQing) and a friend was saying that his 808 just 'did' it without any problems. There was a whole 'software vs. hardware' debate going on, and I was convinced that if I could just do what the hardware was doing, I'd be alright. Once I got my head around EQing, it kinda clicked into place.

I'd love to read that article...

T*

[djTequila]

Does anyone know of a powerfull VSTi drum machine that you can EQ each sounds in.

That would be great

Well:

In reason, take each output from ReDrum and pump it through separate EQs. (I always have every channel in ReDrum separated out and pumped into a separate mixer when I use it.)

In Cubase, take Battery, and set it up to use multiple outs. Put any pre-reverbed sounds in stereo channels and any others in mono. Then use the Cubase channel EQs, or plugins, to EQ each channel. To set channels for a cell, select the cell, hold down <ctrl> and click on the output box - bottom right of the interface. Then type in the channel number. (HOW counter-intuitive???)

In Logic, make sure you're using V 5.3 or above. Either load up a battery as above or Load up an ESX24, and set different zones to different outputs. (You can turn a stereo channel into two monos by panning hard left & right in the zone view, and using mono AUX objects to receive the data for left and right sides.) You must create a separate 'aux' type audio object for each channel output, and set the input to 'instrument x->ESX24 x <...>'. Oh, and you MUST create the instrument by selecting 'Multi Channel->ESX24' in the I/O input box on the original Audio Instrument object.

Then simply load in EQs and gates on each Aux object insert point. And the original instrument object.

Easy. Plus, you can use the best EQ for the job - like, Waves Renaisssance for serious fattening up, and Waves standard for precision shifting of individual harmonics ;)

As well as individual compressors, reverbs, distortions, blah, blah, blah.

Easy.

T*

[djTequila]

Hey T,
Check this out... the post I was talkin about m8.
members.shaw.ca/stu.macQ/index.htm


Wow! That's pretty damning - and it explains everything. The lack of the ability to create a tight groove AND the harmonic distortion...

Bleh!

Luckily I was weaning myself off Reason anyway.



quantization noise is always there and everywhere digital but the amounts can b grater or smaller thus more noticeable or less... and aalthough a tiny fraction percievable not overwelming (so it wouldn't b so sso harsh... still some 8 bit stuff sound really sweet... some people still swear by they're 12 bit samplers ...)...

main prob here is a slight error (not constant) in phasing at sample level (probably responsable 4 most of the very slight quant. noise) and freq. reprodution generating the probs heard...


Quantization noise won't be a problem unless the bit depth falls below 16 bits at any point, really. The phasing issues you're talking about (looking at the article) cause the interpolation of incorrectly placed samples to distort the waveform and create new frequencies - hence harmonic distortion. The incorrectly rendered square wave had a slight dip at one end... This would create extra high-frequency and mid-range information in the output. As these inaccurate renderings were stacked, the harmonic distortion would build up... Creating the clarity problems you hear with most 'pure reason' tracks.

Which neatly matches up with my own theories. I was wondering how that distortion got there... What a pain in the arse! I like the way Reason fits together...

Cheers for pointing me there Z! :)



try using reason only 4 it's instruments (the less processes u run thru the prog. the better u'll have yer sound I reckon).. do all the mixing on another more acurate source (eq each sound 2 the fundamental freq.s.. try 2 use a good eq. plug in)...


Yeah, sounds good to me.

*sigh*

T*

[djTequila]

Finally, try using a vitalizer - either a plug-in, or get one second-hand. They're cheap now, and (so I'm told) attempt to remove 'wasted' frequencies. Sounds strange to me, but there you go! I've only heard good things about them.

Tequila

hi tequila, are there any you can recomend (plug-in wise)

cheers

Sorry, can't seem to find a plug-in anywhere - which is odd. However, I'm about to get my hands on a hradware unit (SPL Vitalizer) which are going for under a ton second hand these days. So get in touch later and I'll let you know if it's worth the $$$.

T*

[djTequila]

Well, what I was told about vitalizers was a load of sh*t. The SPL unit adds stereo expansion (by a portion of negative phase signal from the left channel to the right, and vice versa), bass shaping (from warm/soft to tight/hard), dynamic EQing (balancing out the bass & mid/high frequencies with each change to a psychoacoustic model) and high-end excitement (adding in new high end information musically related to the source material).

Still could be of help to Reason tracks... But maybe not.

Burn all separate instruments to WAV. Load them into something like Acid, which allows you to stack up long WAV files and edit them. Mix them there.

Preferably use EQ and effects within this host program.

:)

T*

[djTequila]

I got a reply from the Reason suport team relating to this issue, and the web article.

Apparently 'harmonic distortion does not occur in the digital domain'. So there. :P They also stated that 'I don't think our developers put these kind of sound harming algorithms in the 2.5 upgrade.'

Hmm. Anyone else see the problems with these 'answers'?

The 'test' they propose to clear up the issue involves loading your favourite music into NN-XT and a samapler in Logic/Cubase, and playing them back to hear if there's any difference.

No help for issues relating to timing and heavily layered samples then!

They also asked if the Reason demo files sounded at all 'dull.' What's everyone's opinion on this?

I will keep you all informed of any further gems from the Reason team.

T*

[zaalmoetlos]

Burn all separate instruments to WAV. Load them into something like Acid, which allows you to stack up long WAV files and edit them. Mix them there.

Preferably use EQ and effects within this host program.

thanks alot for all the help it, was killing us we'll soon quit with this programme but we have a couple of tracks to finnish up

cheers

[Antinoise]

Long story short is .... Reason is great.. The sound just lacks audio headroom. Its a problem of the entire digital world which is summed up by this program nicely.

Analogue or bust!!!

-G

[JACKSTAR]

DJ Nehpets use it for his Ghetto stuff and it seems to work well. Personally I prefer hardware.

P.

[Patrick DSP]

i did my Maximum Minimum Sludge all in reason...
i did it more as a joke while on the phone...

see what happens with happy accidents?!

[anx]

the title is "famos producers" who use reason.

haha jk pat

[Patrick DSP]

yes yes, i know i'm not famous...
i didn't mean to pass myself off as one. sorry if i gave that impression.

didn't mean too.

i just wanted to point out that you can get some pretty good results from reason, you just need to realize that you can't master too well inside reason.

[anx]

i knew exactly what you meant man i was just giving you a hard time!

d to the s to the p