I'm a bit worried

[Ritzi Lee]

What's the point of releasing techno music if:

- everything is crushed into little bits of loops to use in ableton live

- eventually in the near future no dj will play vinyl records

- buying techno vinyl definitely is not for people who are not into the dj world

- the value and exclusiveness of the music techno will be gone

- people are not willing to pay for music anymore, because you can download free livesets of artists where you can hear all the shiit



Or is it too soon to worry about these cases?

[rotten]

probably yes. i will always keep buying techno vinyls AND download diverse sets too. the more musicians keep doing music the more people will show their respect and buy it surely. a good point ritzi but nothing to worry about...me thinks ;)

[MARKEG]

if you've got half a brain about you, you will not get into the music industry....you've pointed out just a few of the reason why it's almost impossible to make a living out of it or a life out of it. but we just do it anyway. why?

i dunno, i cant explain it, other than the fact music does stupid things to you that you just cant explain.

and it's the best decision i ever made in my life ;) :)

[RDR]

Dont bee worried ritzi, mark is mostly right, remember that the industry doesnt just mean being an artist - if you love music and really want to make a difference you can give your time to the industry in other positive ways.

And, as ever, music ALWAYS evolves (thankfully) you never quite know what is around the next corner. Keep your wits about you and prepare to roll with whatever happens. Techno music will change so keep a watchful eye on it.

The models of delivery change, the people who play it change. The history of recorded music for the masses hasnt even really begun still. It was only 30 years ago the ordinary person could afford a radio. Think about it.

[holotropik]

there is no point if all you want to do is make money from it....

just remember it isnt easy to make a good track, not everyone can do it and those that can and have the dedication it takes to pull this off will stand apart from the rest....that will amount to something everytime.

[Jay Pace]

Hi Ritzi, think I fall foul of two of your worries.

I've been playing techno for around ten years and I now no longer buy any vinyl. My love affair has ended, and now I just get narked with the sound quality and the obscene costs of each record. I took out a loan and bought final scratch, and I now buy stacks of MP3s each month as its the only way I can stay in the scene on my budget.

If I had more money I would probably buy the odd record, failing that I get them off soulseek until such a time comes that I can buy them legitimately on mp3.

I've always hated "exclusive" scenes. Good music is meant to be listened to, not hoarded in the collections of the elite IMO. Used to be into to D&B, where djs make a living out of being upfront whilst having little to no technical skill or creativity. Far too many hangers-on in D&B, and the only way they manage it is through their "exclusive" access to new records. Techno will always have a certain exclusivity simply by not being pitched at the mainstream. I don't think legions of britney fans are suddenly going to make the switch...

People are starting to pay for music again, legal downloads are soaring - the fact that people stopped paying was more a case of the industry getting caught out and not having a business or distribution model ready for digital. It was never that people refused to pay, more that it was quicker and easier to steal than to pay. With stealing being the easier option , why buy? Thankfully this is being redressed and its now getting much easier to pay than steal.

Just a few thoughts...

[RDR]

. Used to be into to D&B, where djs make a living out of being upfront whilst having little to no technical skill or creativity. Far too many hangers-on in D&B, and the only way they manage it is through their "exclusive" access to new records.

:lol:

Aint that shit the truth.

[Davin]

Hi ritzi,

I have to say you you put a good point across well, and I'd say it's best to worry now than never!!However I know personally I WILL never stop buying and playing vinyl no matter how weird it'll seem in the future as for me cd's, mp3, all that crap jus aint the same - fair enough it maybe lighter and more user friendly but it just aint the same!!END OF STORY!!

As for Ableton I personally really like it, I'd never, ever use it to play other's production but for my own stuff (when It's made) I will definitly use to play and gig live, for me ableton has a certain jamming vibe to it than no software has replicated, others may prefer sampler's & and more hands on equipment but ableton just has a lovely feel to it when your using it!!

LONG LIVE VINYL :pray: Davin!!!

[Conan]

I think the point about people steeling music is very important. If people are into a type of music or a "scene" they should want morally to pay the artist for the money. Maybe this is a bit naive but its about attitudes and respect something that has gone slowly out of society and the techno community. But as you say legal downloads are increasing and maybe this means morality is re-emerging.

[Mindful]

Good points Dodgy and perfectly valied worries Ritzi

To add to this, one thing I know for sure is this scene will keep going no matter what the format or how much we make from it or spend on it.
Im never going to stop DL good sets and freinds music for free,
Im never going to stop buying records,mp3s or cds and im going to be making music in whatever form for as long as I live I expect.
Most of my money, time and energy goes in to music in whatever form(mostley techno) and I ask for nothing in return other than what I allready get from it.

And I know so many people who care just as much as I do.
So for this reason Im not worried.

I feel for the people who make a living from indipendent music I realy do and have huge respect for anyone whos living their dream in any way.
But the smart and passionate people will adapt and carry on with what they love, im sure.


:)

[holotropik]

Adapt is the key word...

[dirty_bass]

Adapt and survive.
If people had of pulled together when all this started to happen, then things may have been a little different.
In this community we have everything we need, the brains for business, the creativity, the drive, the facilities etc
Unfortunately greed, ego and selfishness have not helped pull things together, and I see more and more in these troubled times, that rather than pulling together, people are tightening their belts, getting nasty and falling apart.

[Ritzi Lee]

What would the scene be without you guys!

Even if we have great knowledge about the fact that the situation is very ****e#d up,
we still go on and make techno music. :)

I only have one wish:
I hope techno music now and in the future will still be seen as an art and a valuable music genre.
There are a lot of things and techniques behind making a good track.
And fortunately also a couple of secrets. Anyway if your not into productions...
Ok maybe it's a different perspective then making rock music or any other kind of genre.
But it would make me sad to see kind of releases in the future where you get a set of samples,
and consider it as half-finished music. The mystery would be gone that way...
Especially for the people who are normally listening our kind of stuff.
Just think about what the consequences will be.

[JamieBall]

Adapt and survive.
If people had of pulled together when all this started to happen, then things may have been a little different.
In this community we have everything we need, the brains for business, the creativity, the drive, the facilities etc
Unfortunately greed, ego and selfishness have not helped pull things together, and I see more and more in these troubled times, that rather than pulling together, people are tightening their belts, getting nasty and falling apart.

True say, chief.

Self important jerks tryin' to keep hold of the one piece of pie that's left, despite the fact it went mouldy years back.

People didn't pull together because they still believed in the potential for INDIVIDUAL gain rather than GROUP gain.

Sad, really.

Notice that people like SUF, however much some of you people may deride 'em, have literally (pardon the pun) STAYED UP FOREVER !

This is solely because they work as a group of friends and have never greedily bitten off more than they can chew, as far as I'm concerned.

Add to that they're all really nice people and will help those they believe in to succeed and you have a good little enterprise.

Sure it's not a massive money spinner but if you're doing something you believe in and you're able to do so then money shouldn't be the main object anyway.

I really hope certain people get the **** out of the scene soon. All this disinformation, no-one who's not 'in the know' knows what techno is anymore. This isn't helped by these clowns playing their supposedly 'groundbreaking' (yawn) sets to the uninitiated. EVERY WEEKEND. ALL OVER THE GLOBE.

I feel both rage and pity for them.

[dirty_bass]

even the SUF have had some poo things happening within it`s walls. I`ve heard of a few mistreated people now, and it`s all again to do with shrinking markets and tightening of belts.
Survival instinct can get nasty.

[holotropik]

Survival instincts DO get nasty. I found that here in OZ. Lots of slammed doors I felt.

[holotropik]

Adapt and survive.
If people had of pulled together when all this started to happen, then things may have been a little different.
In this community we have everything we need, the brains for business, the creativity, the drive, the facilities etc
Unfortunately greed, ego and selfishness have not helped pull things together, and I see more and more in these troubled times, that rather than pulling together, people are tightening their belts, getting nasty and falling apart.

I remember saying/thinkin this many a time......
Could never understand why the selfish ego takes control and over-rides basic human instinct....?

oh yeah.....$$$$

[holotropik]

Little do they relise that if you dont focus on $$$ it will come anyway by default if you are true to the ideals and art....silly bastards.

:(

[Jay Pace]

Little do they relise that if you dont focus on $$$ it will come anyway by default if you are true to the ideals and art....silly bastards.

Not so sure about that one.
Plenty of talented people out there who are never going to make it.
You do need to keep a business head about this, love of art and pure ideals alone won't get you success.

[holotropik]

depends on how you measure success....??

boats, cars, houses...
or
knowing.

[Jay Pace]

How do you "know" though?
There's always got to be an element of public acclaim, otherwise its just conceit.
Music is meant to be heard, getting it heard is difficult and some people will never get heard.

If it makes you happy brilliant, but I think few people can claim success based solely on their own opinion of their worth.

Not trying to be radgy mate ;) and essentially I agree with you but I think that any artist has to work pretty hard to get people's attention. It isn't enough to just have talent, you have to work hard selling yourself, and thats going to involve money somewhere down the line.

[holotropik]

Not at all....people will tell you what they think and their reaction also shows you what they think...how they treat you differently over time and what people you havent met think and treat you. Feedback is way more subtle than just dollar returns. People talk and spread the word. other artists in your genre also talk amongst themselves. Lots goes on behind your back, which takes time and its degree is determined by your input and determination.

The most important thing is being a character....a personality as such that people remember. Even in sport this is important sometimes more than your talent or abilities. How many sportstars do you know that had a few good games and maybe one a champ or two but can no longer 'cut it'.....they remain prety successful nonetheless and some even do better. Its because they have a character or personality that they wield in front of them. People remember that whether they like you or not.....they still remember it and connect to it.

Art of any kind will never work within the framework of an economy. As soon as you use money as the aim for art it gets watered down into formulaic tripe that is more a formula than a creative expression. I would think that is obvious in this day and age. Art gets corrupted by economics and made into a transient trend that soon wears out its welcome only to be replaced by the next trendy thing and so on....milked and left dry so that no-one ever goes back there. Thats called exploitation and is something that big business has perfected in all aspects of our life....just look at the poor state of our world right now. Business has no future left as it has just about used everything up.

To know requires you to be connected intimately with your community. It means you have to listen to what people say and how they react to your expression. You have to put yourself aside and read between the lines. You have to be able to analyse your path and see 'ego-lessly' how far you have come and what you represent. You have to know why people want to go out and dance and be silly in the first place. What do they want from someone like you? What can you give them?

You essentially play/write in order to communicate something to people.....why? What are you trying to say. Is it getting through? How do they react? What do they say?

Where will you go next? Will you follow someone elses lead or will you stand out by yourself in your own words/actions.

[Jay Pace]

Excellent response.


Art of any kind will never work within the framework of an economy
Disagree. Your motivations for creating art can be pure, and then you can employ your business acumen to market it and sell it. It doesn't follow that you are making art for money.


To know requires you to be connected intimately with your community. It means you have to listen to what people say and how they react to your expression.
It is extremely difficult and impractical to do this. One of the best ways to connect with your community is to reach them through established channels (clubs, radio) and modes of distribution (record & mp3 releases).l

Your points on exploitation and having "character" are spot on.

[Mindful]

depends on how you measure success....??

boats, cars, houses...
or
knowing.

Word.

Exelent arguments from both of you, very intreasting thoughts indeed.

You both deserve a biscuit

[The Divide]

depends on how you measure success....??

boats, cars, houses...
or
knowing.

Word.

Exelent arguments from both of you, very intreasting thoughts indeed.

You both deserve a biscuit

Add bitches to that list :lol:

[module]

weird...

i stopped buying vinyl for a few reasons.. no clubs to play it in, lack of cash, and familiarity with the music itself.

i prefer to write my own tunes & loops (for shame lol) and play those with Live.

i have little or no interest in using vinyl as i cant play my own material.

and tbh, i'm more into my shit than anyone elses right now lol




i think taking the money out of techno will bring ti back to what it was about in the first place... music.

[dirty_bass]

weird...

i stopped buying vinyl for a few reasons.. no clubs to play it in, lack of cash, and familiarity with the music itself.

i prefer to write my own tunes & loops (for shame lol) and play those with Live.

i have little or no interest in using vinyl as i cant play my own material.

and tbh, i'm more into my shit than anyone elses right now lol




i think taking the money out of techno will bring ti back to what it was about in the first place... music.

Unfortunately, to take the money out of techno will stop the techno.

People need equipment.
Clubs need to make money to stay open, blah blah blah.
It won`t work for free.
I ran a free party system for years, on a very large free party network.
It leads nowhere, and eventually other commitments take over.

[Komplex]

Survival instincts DO get nasty. I found that here in OZ. Lots of slammed doors I felt.

More like no doors, just a desert wasteland. Mad Max style.

[Komplex]

It won`t work for free.
It leads nowhere, and eventually other commitments take over.

Yep, no money means you have to get a job ;). And then you don't get enough time for music...

All this free business is good in thoery but doesn't work in the long run unless you are a millionaire, or you are somehow self sufficient enough so that you never ever have to go anywhere or buy anything... and you can build your own computers and instruments and don't need globalised corporations like roland/korg/yamaha/intel to bring you gear to any country in the world at a price that is high but still affordable if you work for it.

Unfortunately we all live in reality, whether peoples minds accept that or not...

[holotropik]

Of course money is necessary...but...it shouldnt be the main drive. It shouldnt be the point. Its mainly an egotistical thing now.

We all know to well what the economics of business does to music, it leads to the watered down formulaic crap that we hear everyday now. The business goes for the easy safe option everytime rather than stand behind something new and evolutionary. Business is its own worst enemy in that sense.

I am always surprized at how short-sighted labels and established artists are when it comes to supporting the next generation. What most big-time orgs do is milk it until they have nothing left then leave a barren wasteland. Humans do this in all aspects of our activities. Why dont the big-names with the infrastructure keep planting seeds in new fertile ground so that they will have something to live off when they burn out???

I am trying to explain a mentality that doesnt think ahead enough...

I know if I was a big name I would be listening for younger talent all the time. If I found one I would support and develop that talent, put it under the banner of my label, add more......so that when i want to 'bow-out' I can still support a scene and draw an income. Makes good sense really.
What we tend to see is greedy fools who milk it then say "Thats it I've had enough....thanks....seeya" Not many actually develop a long term plan....

[Komplex]

this does happen Glen, there are people and labels that do and will nurture something if/when they find it... and even when that happens, there has to be financial backing to build and develop something...

be positive man, you will eventually find that connection. If not, or if you get impatient, you will have to jump in and have a go at doing what you beleive all these other big names and labels "should" be doing...

...but its heaps easier said than done.

[Ritzi Lee]

I know if I was a big name I would be listening for younger talent all the time. If I found one I would support and develop that talent, put it under the banner of my label, add more......

That's a good attitude.
But as label you must always be fair.
If the music you get is not quality, then it's not worth releasing it..

But if there is a talent who makes great music, and knows how to communicate with labels, then it's cool.