Turntablism...has it got a place in techno?

[Si the Sigh]

Scratching...your opinions?

Good?

http://www.djkeltech.com/video/Worlds_by_DJ_KELTECH.wmv :)

...or bad?

http://www.markta.co.uk/wankr/vid/dj_wankr.mpg :lol:

I've not heard many DJ's that scratch in techno to be honest, but what I have heard has been good. Always up for the cutting in sets, but is it possible to do a turntablist set with techno?

[dirty_bass]

I love creative turntablism, but personally, scratching is a noise I hate.
But yes, of course their is a place for it in techno.

[gumpy green]

hell yeh baby.......

check ma sig...

got a well good new technique going down that im working on now.,.... involving skracthgin and mashing fx on the track playing and triggering loops of the kp2....

db- what if someone cut a nice bassline up to make a good bassline over just a percussive loops....fair enuf you might not enjoy the sounds of ahhh and fresh but the right sound cutup well i think yad like.

[gumpy green]

turntabilsm aint just skratching i must point out.....

here some old examples-
http://www.diversefrequencies.co.uk/temp/sekonz_nervehammer_routine_plus_cuts.mp3
http://www.diversefrequencies.co.uk/temp/sekonz_juggle_with_fx_intro.mp3
http://www.diversefrequencies.co.uk/temp/sekonz_skratch_example.mp3

what we need is folks studying the shit and not just making a noise.....i cant name one good techno dj that does it proper musically style(proper rytmatic cuts).sure sum cut but thers cutting and cutting.

[Si the Sigh]

Loving that fake video clip I posted up... :lol:

[Si the Sigh]

Checking your sig vid Gumpy...

Cool! :)

[holotropik]

I reckon it does have a place and I would like to see more of it.....i would like to see more of something, anything!! rather than boring as batshit DJs playing tracks one after the other all the time.

[dirty_bass]

Well yeah, I love creative turntablism, and grumpy, you are one of the few doing it proper. I just hate wikka wikka wow scratching.
although when it gets right down to the point of laying parts together with vinyl, your basically just doing a very manual version of ableton.
not if ableton could be synced to final scratch, and you could swtich the decks to control various channels, then when a channel is running how you want it, then switch the deck to control another channel and so on. Man, that would be pretty cool.
There is a time to go barmy on the decks, and a time to let tunes just ride out.
A good DJ takes all the skills and does the best thing at the right time.

[gumpy green]

I reckon it does have a place and I would like to see more of it.....i would like to see more of something, anything!! rather than boring as batshit DJs playing tracks one after the other all the time.yup and only playing the one style of techno too...

why not drop in some fun tracks as well but use the deks to "techno it up"

thats why i luv djs like shorkut, babu, them triple threat djs....and soo many other out ther i the hiphop field...

just ther at our night jakN i dropped "eye of the tiger" and cut a jakN vocal from a highball record over it...wasent the cleanest but the crowd luved it...some boy even started to do the rocky puch moves on the dancefloor...class....

if yav saw skracth the movie-that routine mixmaster mike does with a singing track(not sure what style0 over a elerto/hip hop groove...now thats what i wanna see..fuse it together.


db- spot on.....100%..like that idea of fs and ableton..wuid be well cool.

[gumpy green]

would luv to se sum record with baslines and noises tailored toward the techno sound....then i think this stuff could move forward easier...

im gonna make me own record sometime with samples and stuff i want ...but olny for me to have, wont be sellin em....

[Jay Pace]

Jerome Hill. Nuff said. Has a style of scratching that compliments his records, rather than just mess all over them.

Done sparingly at the right times its magnificent. If its over done you end up wanting to hit the dj with a tyre iron.

[Lujo]

I've not heard many DJ's that scratch in techno to be honest


Ben Long did it few times in Croatia,but like you sad not many do that.

I like that I acctualy admire to people who now that technic and mix her with techno.
Pretty good combination

[gumpy green]

Jerome Hill. Nuff said. Has a style of scratching that compliments his records, rather than just mess all over them.


Done sparingly at the right times its magnificent. If its over done you end up wanting to hit the dj with a tyre iron.
JH- used good sound and they do work very well put tbh they aint complex cuts that i wanna hear.....

i want complex rthmatic combos...not just a record movin back and forth with the odd stab.

polyrthmic skratching cutting a 3/4 time sig over a 4/4 record movment double timein the rythm of the record....now that is music.

[gumpy green]

that 3/4 time sig fader action over a 4/4 record movment @ double time the rythm of the record.

geez the edit funtion.

[Jay Pace]

Jerome Hill. Nuff said. Has a style of scratching that compliments his records, rather than just mess all over them.


Done sparingly at the right times its magnificent. If its over done you end up wanting to hit the dj with a tyre iron.
JH- used good sound and they do work very well put tbh they aint complex cuts that i wanna hear.....


Fair comment. Thing is, I want to hear techno, not scratching.
If scratching adds to it, so much the better.

Showboating doesn't do it for me. Just detracts from the groove. Techno is about hypnotic rhythmn, and unless the scratching adds to it, then its taking away.

Always liked scratching, but think it should complement, not take centre stage.

[barry_fyasko]

yeah i agree, whenu see hiphop turntablists doing their thing, its well impressive, but... id rather hear more of the records. constant chopping and scratching aint gonna get a dancefloor going

[Davin]

I feel that turntablism and exhibitionism in techno is always good to hear............not always necessary, but at the right times and with the right talent doin' it, sure I cant see why there shouldnt be more!!

I'm doing a Dj technique's course at the mo' in college and at the end of the year we will be hosting a battle of the dj comp. - each competitor will only be allowed 15 min's to show what they got, this really annoyed when i found as obviously for all the hip hop heads this was great news as for the techno, trance , and, other music styles in the class this was a slight problem!!!
However back to the turntablism point it will be a time lke this when I'll introduce exhibitionism into my set for this as well........................do I have a choice??? Dav

[Buttman]

"I'm doing a Dj technique's course at the mo' in college"

WHAT?
DJ course at college?
That is sick.

[marginmaster]

nice video mr green!

[loopdon]

Well yeah, I love creative turntablism, and grumpy, you are one of the few doing it proper. I just hate wikka wikka wow scratching.
although when it gets right down to the point of laying parts together with vinyl, your basically just doing a very manual version of ableton.
not if ableton could be synced to final scratch, and you could swtich the decks to control various channels, then when a channel is running how you want it, then switch the deck to control another channel and so on. Man, that would be pretty cool.
There is a time to go barmy on the decks, and a time to let tunes just ride out.
A good DJ takes all the skills and does the best thing at the right time.


i think there is something quite similar (but it makes use of the miss pinky vinyls):

http://www.mspinky.com/jpgs/Pinky_Pluggo_Live.jpg

Ms Pinky's "Pinky Pluggo" plugin allows users of VST, AudioUnit, and RTAS-compatible host programs running under both OSX and WinXP to seamlessly integrate Ms Pinky's vinyl-controlled audio file playback and scratching into music production software sessions... for the purposes of studio recording, or for live performance. Supported file types are WAV, AIFF, and MP3.

Based on the popular Pluggo technology from Cycling-'74, "Pinky Pluggo" is free to members of Ms Pinky's Fan Club, and does not require the purchase of Pluggo in order to run. Users can simply download and install the free runtime version of Pluggo from cycling74.com to begin using "Pinky Pluggo".


http://www.mspinky.com/WreckedSystem_Pluggo.html

[Conan]

Techno is about hypnotic rhythmn

Always liked scratching, but think it should complement, not take centre stage.

Who says Techno is about hypnotic rhythm, why do you say that.


Good point about complementing the music not taking centre stage.

[anx]

one thing a dj has to remember when they play techno is that people are listening to techno for the tracks, not the dj, which is quite the opposite when it comes to turntablism. you have to watch out and make sure your tricks are not overpowering your music, the goal is to keep people dancing, not to stand there and watch.

[Jay Pace]

Techno is about hypnotic rhythmn

Always liked scratching, but think it should complement, not take centre stage.

Who says Techno is about hypnotic rhythm, why do you say that.


Well, for me it is. Techno has a rhythmn and structure that builds upon itself. It has a natural continuity that hip hop, D&B and breaks all lack. Scratching lends itself more to this music as it doesn't have the same driving rhythmic elements.

Well thats how I see it anyways. Others may disagree... :dance:

[djshiva]

one thing a dj has to remember when they play techno is that people are listening to techno for the tracks, not the dj, which is quite the opposite when it comes to turntablism. you have to watch out and make sure your tricks are not overpowering your music, the goal is to keep people dancing, not to stand there and watch.

hmmm...i somewhat agree with this, but not entirely.

no, you definitely do not want tricks to overpower the music OR mess up the groove...agreed.

but as far as the first statement, i have heard various djs play almost the same tracks and one will rock it and one will bore me to death. so there is something to the dj themselves, and how much they put into it. listening to a bunch of KILLER techno tracks just run back to back is about the most boring thing i can imagine...no matter how hot the tracks. if i want that, i can stay home and just listen iTunes.

to me, the beauty of djing is the mix itself. taking two really good tracks and turning them into a whole 'nother monster. and if someone can accent their djing with some good, rhythmic scratching (not too much...a good dj knows when to let things play)...then the dancefloor will appreciate it...

[anx]

but as far as the first statement, i have heard various djs play almost the same tracks and one will rock it and one will bore me to death. so there is something to the dj themselves, and how much they put into it. listening to a bunch of KILLER techno tracks just run back to back is about the most boring thing i can imagine...no matter how hot the tracks. if i want that, i can stay home and just listen iTunes.



oh yea i totally agree, the mix is the most important thing when it comes to techno...its up to the dj to make it interesting, thats the way i've always looked at it.

i guess im just trying to say, that if you are going to do tricks or scratching, make it compliment the track, and not overpower it. anyone can learn how to do tricks with enough practice, its putting them in the right spot that takes the talent...

[machina]

I don't mind scratching and general screwing around with tracks if it's done respectfully... unfortunately most of the time i think it's shocking and downright disrespectful to the producers... nothing worse than hearing your favourite tunes destroyed by indulgent dj's with 'my dick is bigger than yours' syndrome.

machina

[rhythmtech]

done well and with restraint - amazing
done badly - BAD!

[RDR]

If you cant scratch - you aint lived.

its the ultimate way of learning how to manipulate your records. Practice, practice, practice.

Learn it and you'll never look back.

Techno WITHOUT scratching? Oh the horror of it. (IMO)

[RDR]

unfortunately most of the time i think it's shocking and downright disrespectful to the producers...

Dont respect your records, treat them like the little slag's that they are and bend them to your will. :devilish:

@Shiva - bang on point.

[RDR]

"I'm doing a Dj technique's course at the mo' in college"

WHAT?
DJ course at college?
That is sick.

Hows that then?

i teach DJ technique at college. do you?

[gumpy green]

why do the folks that dont like it use the constant skratching aint gonna get the dancefloor rockin argue......a good dj aint gonna do that, theyll use all the styles throughout the set.......i for one use all my techniques, sometimes i just drop tunes in, others mixed, some fxed out, some filterred in, others beat juggled, others cutting over a track, sometimes no records and fukin about with the kp2 sample function to rmx a track dropping in vocals over the top....and so on...

no good dj will skratch the whole set...yuk.

try and see the future of what it could become with some vision and hard practice....i dare thee to just stick on the same 2 records and mess about with them for a month with sum fx and see what comes from it.

[Xavi]

how come no one mentioned DJ MURPHY >>??? guy is a fukin lunatic !!!!! u have to see+hear him for yourself to beleive it !!! :bonk:

that's techno + turntableism right there !!

[gumpy green]

heard him yes....hes good but no wher near the musical level of the whats possible and what i hav in my vision of techno/turntablism fused....good on him for getting it going tho.....

think dj craze when he spins drum and bass. and then breaks it down with musical sequences and such outstanding pression, cutting faders in musical rythms with both hands switching between fader and decks.....the boy crabs with both hands......he really is doing 2 rythms and the same time when hes cutting drum patters and plying basslines.....LIVE MUISC..not just the odd cut over a beat.

[Davin]

"I'm doing a Dj technique's course at the mo' in college"

WHAT?
DJ course at college?
That is sick.

Aint nothin' sick about it my friend infact it's a highly enjoyable course that does'nt concentrate on what you probably think it doe's!!!
You need to understand that while there are people in the course using it to build their technique on the deck's, and there are other's like myself using it to gain experience and knowledge in the field's of production, self promotion, business etho's in the industry,and to build a biography /portfolio!!!!and that's only an few area's of the course, you probably thought that we sit round all day banging out tune's well you my friend were wrong!! :oops:
And when you have the various talent's of Sunil Sharpe, Dj Tuki, and , 2 BiT (aka Dekabel) teaching you you gain alot!!!!

[Jay Pace]

I'm guessing he's using "sick" to mean "good"

[Davin]

Should have just siad "good" in that case!!!

[rhythmtech]

Should have just siad "good" in that case!!!

my old mate jon hussy still teaching out there?

[rhythmtech]

I'm guessing he's using "sick" to mean "good"

yeashizzle. we dubsnizzles tend to stickyfissle to the more traditionalizzle way ofizzle talking. word.

[gunjack]

i dunno but i was beat juggling the f uck out of some antidandruff stuff last week to an audience who just stood there without dancing. i thought they hated it then i read the comments the next day on the web and these kids were apperently blow away! goes to show you never know.

[stjohn]

beat jugglin definatly has a place...... 2 copies of a tune can be great fun. it can also be an abomination if uve drank too much or indulged in other substances, which is often my case!

[Jay Pace]

Ok - is there anything you can do with beat juggling that you can't replicate perfectly with a pioneer 600 and the delay effect?

Cos I can't see what the difference is.

[Davin]

No John hussey aint teachin' in Bray at the moment I've been told he might be coming back next year and I'm going to Berlin with him & my class which should be a good laugh!!!

[Conan]

Ok - is there anything you can do with beat juggling that you can't replicate perfectly with a pioneer 600 and the delay effect?

Cos I can't see what the difference is.

You dont get the same authenticity or craftsmen like quality from the delay effect, plus any old clown can press a button and twist a parameter.

It isn't the same.

[Jay Pace]

But it sounds exactly the same, no?

Plus you can do it whilst in the mix, cutting between records doubling the beats on both.
To recreate this effect you would essentially need 4 decks and it would take too long to set up to be practical.
No prizes for authenticity. If you rock it, you rock it. End of.

[Conan]

Well no it doesnt sound the same at all, and I feel that there is prizes for authenticity.

Im goin to go a bit off the point here but stay with me.... If you buy a chair from argos it will not have the same feel to it as a chair you have hand made for you. It isn't that tangable but you notice the difference, it feels better.

I have the same opinions with regard to effects, in particular the delay effect. Sure you might think it sounds the same but there is something missing.

This is my opinion of course Jay, Im not trying to start any barney.

[Jay Pace]

hahaha mate not at all, no quarrel here :)

I've just always thought beat juggling was a bit of an over rated skill.
I rag the arse off the delay during my mixes, and do stuff there isn't a hope in hell I could do this the old way.
It would just take much too much time and require too many decks and records.

But fair play mate, different strokes for diferent folks ;)
And beat juggling does allow the possiblity of scratching in the beats, something that a pioneer couldn't allow...

[dirty_bass]

For the dancing punter, who can`t even see the decks, I doubt they would notice

[Mindful]

its not the same is it realy?
plenty of pionts and big fukk off prizes off me.
My dog can press the flashing botton on a mixer.

[Conan]

I rag the arse off the delay during my mixes, and do stuff there isn't a hope in hell I could do this the old way.
It would just take much too much time and require too many decks and records.


I hear you fair point :clap:

And Dirty I know what your saying but it can make a difference to the techno heads there , but good point.

[Mindful]

if yav saw skracth the movie-that routine mixmaster mike does with a singing track(not sure what style0 over a elerto/hip hop groove...now thats what i wanna see..fuse it together.

That is so mint.
When he cuts up the old blues record and that fat bass.
That is skillfull as hell.

Great film that by the way if any of you aint seen it.

[Jay Pace]

Love that film.

Not sure about the whole "communicating with aliens through scratching" angle. Q-Bert, hang you head in shame.

DJ shadow ruled that film.

[Mindful]

Is Shadow the dude with the goetee whos in to crate digging in that basement full of records*drool

[Mindful]

My dog can press the flashing botton on a mixer.

Must point out that his timing is whack tho

[dirty_bass]

Does it matter what amount of skill it takes as long as it sounds good, the selection is mint and the crowd get taken on a journey?

[Mindful]

suppose not dude.
Its all about the music and as you say the journey realy thats why as a guy who plays records I love The whole Ableton thing cause at the end of the day I just want to hear good thoughtfull music coming out of the system.

But Im sad and dont spend any time on the dancfloor,I spend my time staring at the guy playing music and love to see someone getting f f fressssssshhh :)

As you piont out its the music and the journey.

[dirty_bass]

Well, I am a bit of a nerd and a purist, but when it comes to club time, I`m on the floor getting down.

[EmotionComplex]

http://www.markta.co.uk/wankr/vid/dj_wankr.mpg :lol:



hahahha

[Jay Pace]

Is Shadow the dude with the goetee whos in to crate digging in that basement full of records*drool

Thats him.

Had so much respect for "entroducing" after watching that film. I just assumed he made those beats.

But the way he put it, he just kept digging through that basement and the album just put itself together. Every bit of every song a sample. Incredible.

Props to Shadow and the art of digging.

[djshiva]

how come no one mentioned DJ MURPHY >>??? guy is a fukin lunatic !!!!! u have to see+hear him for yourself to beleive it !!! :bonk:

that's techno + turntableism right there !!

haven't heard him spin (any links?), but his and christian fischer's remix of elton d gets caned by me on a fairly regular basis! :)

[djshiva]

Ok - is there anything you can do with beat juggling that you can't replicate perfectly with a pioneer 600 and the delay effect?

Cos I can't see what the difference is.

yup. while i use the delay effect to duplicate double copy sounds a bit myself, with two copies you can do a forward triple scratch and set the beat off, then back on then off then back on, then flange manually, then cut and do it all as well. i won't say i have the technique perfected, but one night me and adam jay stayed at his house (our ride never showed up to go see the advent) and practiced this trick with advent records all night.

was mighty fun too!

[gumpy green]

Ok - is there anything you can do with beat juggling that you can't replicate perfectly with a pioneer 600 and the delay effect?

Cos I can't see what the difference is.

eh???--cmon that is silly, for a start u can use 2 differnt record/parts of the tune...jugglin a vocal with a beat etc.....

why not juggle and use the delay fx....like i do in ma sig.

jugglin - you can change the pitch of the sounds, cut etc.....it is NOT THE SAME....period.

overratted- honestyly cmon...its pure art/music....only folks that cant do it would say that.

db- does it matter how skilfull as long as it sounds good????

it can sound good and be musical...ie cutting a 3/4 time sig fader over 4/4 record movments...with the same sample an uneducted(in skratching) not much difference wont notice much between doing that and a baby skratch...i can easily tell(its my fav artfrom afterall) and im hyped much more than the a record movin back and forth, fader open)...thats why thers sooo many folks trying to push it in the turntablim/hiphop scene.....we need that in techno....

iv got a not bad sounding cut going without using the fader but using the kp2 beat stutter fx to create a weird sounding "flare skrath" type cut, the cut has the same rythmatic properties but sounds just a little stutterred.....turntablim and techno fused.

think of it this way- a produced track that is quite easy made(simple patterns) can sound better than a very complex made track(to you)....which is better, the one you like, or the one with more artistic value??cause someone else will like the sound of the other more.

to the folks that dont understand whats going on the tables it dont really matter but to folk like myself who are down with the turntablism movment know whats up.....and if only 3 headz in a 500 crowd get that feeling i get when i see it flipped....FUK AYE...its worth it....

and i wouldnt dare say qbert hang your head in shame, maybe his stuff on that video aint much but he is simply the best skratcher out ther and pretty much pionerred the shit along with the fellow isp crew.....his musical rythms are up ther with any of the best musicians in the world on guitars etc....

[gumpy green]

Props to Shadow and the art of digging.yup , thats what id like to see in techno too..

tbh- im pretty slack at it nowadays...used to be quite into diggin the weird crates.....got a few gems out likes..

im defo gonna try and dig more.

car bootsales etc...

i once got a mozart record(well know one) going through some rubbish my neabour was throwing out....bin rakin bam i am.

[marginmaster]

how come no one mentioned DJ MURPHY >>??? guy is a fukin lunatic !!!!! u have to see+hear him for yourself to beleive it !!! :bonk:

that's techno + turntableism right there !!

haven't heard him spin (any links?), but his and christian fischer's remix of elton d gets caned by me on a fairly regular basis! :)

conflicts just put one up in the worldwide techmo thread

[Jay Pace]

Fair play to you grumpy!

Q-Bert may have skills to pay his bills, but his view on alien communication are "interesting" to say the least.

Guess I've just seen a lot of very lazy beat jugglers. Never particularly impressed with a skill which could be easily achieved by using an effect. You could do away with pitch control for example, and just keep the records in time yourself by pushing them. Doesn't mean the floor would appreciate it anymore though despite the obvious skill required.

But fair play mate, watched your video and you do some really creative stuff.

[gumpy green]

the alien com is cause prob they took to much acid back in the day....

i like this weird fuked up mindset...espesh bob moogs one...check his documentary if you havent, its great watching an old dude speaking of shit like this.....me papa only knows how to make soup and smoke a pipe...lol

beat juggles- it just can be created with an fx, you could sort of recreate strobbin which is a type of juggle but on the whole it has totally different properties, you can do stuff with the delay fx you cant do with jugglin and vice versa......techno should imbrace the 2 and just think of the stuff possible.....

who do i rate as a b-juggla----- vin rock(triple threat djs- they party rock with the true musical skillz), craze, most o the beat junkies....

http://www.thetriplethreatdjs.com/

aint much vids on ther tho

btw- anybody interested in skratching this is the definative guide-

http://www.asisphonics.net/theever.zip

[gumpy green]

that skrath guide- check out the delyed flare.......and try it...haha its so complex.

[RDR]

the alien com is cause prob they took to much acid back in the day....

i like this weird fuked up mindset...espesh bob moogs one...check his documentary if you havent, its great watching an old dude speaking of shit like this.....me papa only knows how to make soup and smoke a pipe...lol

beat juggles- it just can be created with an fx, you could sort of recreate strobbin which is a type of juggle but on the whole it has totally different properties, you can do stuff with the delay fx you cant do with jugglin and vice versa......techno should imbrace the 2 and just think of the stuff possible.....

who do i rate as a b-juggla----- vin rock(triple threat djs- they party rock with the true musical skillz), craze, most o the beat junkies....

http://www.thetriplethreatdjs.com/

aint much vids on ther tho

btw- anybody interested in skratching this is the definative guide-

http://www.asisphonics.net/theever.zip


Some excellent comments there and a nice d/l... nice one!

[gumpy green]

thanks......

tutorial is by a boy called alias who is the fukin DON on the skratching..if you into pursit cutting at a high speeds and high level(you really have to be right into it) look for a tape called "braille" by alias



We still don't know if he was an individual, or an Alias (as his name implies).
Appreciate the legacy.

Everybody remember "Mind F***er Theater"? Any of you remember "Braille"?
Who here still listens to "The Buddah Fights Too"?

Aliosity is the man.....

[The Divide]

I think there’s a time and place for it totally. It makes good showmanship and I respect the amount of skill involved in it. Yes, it can be overdone, or just done badly, but the same goes with everything. Its all about balance and context

I do like the battle attitude too, that doesn’t mean whoever is flashy is the superior alpha male, but that when two djs go head to head, back to back or whatever. It can lead the set in interesting directions where it be in tune selection, or mixing

[holotropik]

I think there’s a time and place for it totally. It makes good showmanship and I respect the amount of skill involved in it. Yes, it can be overdone, or just done badly, but the same goes with everything. Its all about balance and context

I do like the battle attitude too, that doesn’t mean whoever is flashy is the superior alpha male, but that when two djs go head to head, back to back or whatever. It can lead the set in interesting directions where it be in tune selection, or mixing

also, two players pushin off each other often pushes the energy up and makes for some kick-ass sounds.....congrats equally to the both of them for this effort....amazing stuff to witness :)