engineer/producer who actually writes the music?

[davethedrummer]

this is an old bone of contention for me.
i have been forced to moan at people i've worked with to get some form of recognition for my work as an engineer so many times.
usually i charge a daily rate and i ask for a credit on the label as an engineer and in the old days that was fine.
but these days after having made hundreds of tracks that have been released i have to ask "who is really benefitting here?"
sure i get my fee (which is very reasonable ie small) but sometimes people come in with absolutley f.a. (ideas and/or sounds) and i sit there and go round the houses until we hit on something we like.
sometimes i play everything sample everything choose the sounds do the mix do the arrangement and the "producer" says yes or no and that's it.
now that's a collaboration is it not?
well all i can say to any of you who may share studios or rent out your space and yourself as engineer don't get caught in this trap.

suggest a collaboration . or if it really isn't working just abandon it
bollocks if they can't do it they shouldn't be wasting your time or sucking your talent and hard work from you.

i'm way tougher about this now and to be honest i find people respect me much more. i guess i just didn't think i was worth anything before.

i'd just like to say i've never had this problem with any of the london acid techno people or people on my labels (obviously)

[miromiric.]

this is totally bizzare. you actually do the mixdowns, samplings, tweakings?! haha thats marvelous!
i say tell them to bugger off or send them at my place. i ll have my way with those pricks.

is any of these mushrooms involved with techno scene or are we talking about fags from the mtv ?

[Jimfish]

yeah, this is somthing that has effected me too - nowhere near as much as D.A.V.E though i would imagine..
the way i go about it now is to go co-production with people. Quite often i dont want any kind of production credit on the record so we will use the clients name as an artist name on the contract.. I charge £150 per day, £100 of which is an advance on the record (so when we finally get paid they get an extra £100)..
This still isnt a great way of doing it, but i have to find the balance between getting **** all out of it and losing punters.

the other thing with all this is that most punters really dont know thier knob from thier titties and as D.A.V.E. said hours get spent going through sounds. and i end up doing all the creative side of it (grrr.) - which causes problems when i come to write my own tunes and find ive used all my ideas up on some gaylord dj.

and the other thing is these guys allways just want to add more sounds, constantly wanting another sound and it just ruins things.. then there is the arrogance of some of these dj ****ers thinking they know ebverything and of course the terrible taste of some people...

wow, am i having a moan or what! sorry :oops:

[spiralx]

That is shitty... but at least I suppose you're preventing a flood of wank being unleashed upon the world :roll:

[davethedrummer]

That is shitty... but at least I suppose you're preventing a flood of wank being unleashed upon the world :roll:

hahaha
a flood of wank!!!!

hehehe
like it.

[one]

i really dont know cuz ive never done this kind of stuff ever, but surely there must be a diffrence if the person you r working/producing for actually wants to learn something?
i wouldnt mind doing that, but i would still put it out as a collaboration

anyways **** off and do your own tunes

[DJZeMig_L]

Dave 4 president... :) man u r 2 kind!!

If fact u must have a guessing finger... only 2 days ago I discovered again that I have been fuc*** by a person I figured as a real true friend .. I have donne (and yes I did the sounds, structure and sequences, mixing, ... in fact he only gave me a few samples that I used... after extensive manipulation...)... but at least I did a co prodution... he still goes around saying I only pushed buttons cause I don't know the first thing about house 'cause I'm only a techno annimal... now he is almost right.. I am a techno animal but I know about house, i know he best not step in mine anymore :evil:

Plus the record was being spinned by some heavy top House DJs!

Waht I do before renting I setle a price, I say that I won't do anything but touching knobs and oushing faders, and no matter how much it annoyes me I won't do anything but... later I have the option 2 b credited or not.. I get paid even if he doesn't do sh* I charge by the hour and receive each days worth b4 stepping in the studio...

If I do colaborations I will now start charging the studio work... just like if I was renting it 2 someone else... of course I also collect 1/2 what ever the record makes, as any co-producer would...

MAKE SURE U REGISTER THE TRACKS AS A CO-PRODUTION.

Z

[miromiric.]

well if my partner ever does that to me i ll ****in grab his nose and crush it like a babycrusher t. morrison.

[davethedrummer]

totally agree with you migl
now i sort everything in advance i still charge "mates rates" to some people but these days everyone gets charged something and the writing credits are sorted out before we start.
if i get into it during the session and input something then we renegotiate.

last time i worked with michael burkat we just did a collaboration
i'm not saying michael can't do it on his own he can .but when he's in my studio i tend to do a lot of the work. he learnt a lot from me and built up his own studio and sound (good on him too) but now it's better if we just collaborate it saves any confusion later.

(absolutely no disrespect intended to michael)

the thing is with music is once you have learnt to produce it which is a costly time consuming frustrating skill you can have the ability to produce almost any type of music you just need the right musicians to work with
ie: house music. i can't really make it on my own (well i can now) so i need an experience house guy in the studio but if he doesn't know anything about computers mixers etc then its an equal relationship however famous the guy may be.

oh yeah and how many times has some body asked you to do something
really unusual that takes you ****ing ages only to be told "no i don't like it!!!!"

that's what drives me mad about engineering for other djs

(apart from the fact that they're all a bunch of girls!)

[Adverse]

i remember when dean told me he did this for others..

i couldn't believe it..

[Adverse]

the only record i have ever had that said engineered by was an ian void record engineered by guy.

[crime]

So let me get this straight, Henry, people pay you to make their tune for them.... Surely getting your hands dirty is part of it....
What a bizzare idea!

[Jimfish]

if you equate it to more mainstream music then the engineer is actually the producer and the dj is the cheesy boy-band - not far wrong as most of em havent a musical bone in thier body and just love strutting about infront of large crowds getting cheered for doing nothing except being proper cheese-masters..

[Jimfish]

(there go my punters :cry: )

[DJZeMig_L]

Yeah I like doing colaborations but I make sure they r open minded enought .. there is no fun in doing house only the house way, or techno, or what ever... go with the flow.... that's the cool thing about mixing different ideas...

But then u also get those people who want 2 do something OBVIOUSLY very wrong and they insist, that's when u pull ranks and say WHO's the Engenier up in this bit** or when they r really really dumb I just have my right (gladly) 2 have credits for my studio work ... lol

Now i let them look 4 the sounds and go ... this is rec button... practise what u want and then when u r really hit rec and play... when u r donne call me I gonna fix me a cuppa...

:)

Z

[DJ Corbzy]

dave we all know your a techno mastering/engineering god! :D

[Adverse]

god..?

[DJ Corbzy]

what are you like mark.... :roll:

[Jimfish]

you must have a lot of cuppas ZM.. nothing would ever get done if i left some my lot at it

[DJPAUZE]

Dave you are the man!!!
I have heard your horror stories about not getting credit during past conversations, complete BULLSHIT if you ask me.
You are probably one of the most talented producers in the business, it goes to show when some of the big names of the world are hammering your beats like crazy.
Don't worry about the hard work you have put into those artist past albums, what goes around comes around. And I believe sir that you have put alot of hard work and effort into what you do and your credit has still to come.............................................

Pauze :twisted:

[DJMAYA]

yup! ill drink to that. 8)

[The Overfiend]

That's not right by any standard, I don't care if my girlfriend is standing over my shoulder while I'm writing, she gets credit.

[DJ Corbzy]

That's not right by any standard, I don't care if my girlfriend is standing over my shoulder while I'm writing, she gets credit.

she gets credit for standing over your shoulder? :?

[The Overfiend]

:twisted: Yeah telling me what sounds good, what fits, and what doesnt. Sometimes a punter can tell you what sounds good and what would make her run off the dancefloor champ! Plus she's my hardest critic. Typical Italian attitude so she keeps it real as F%$K!

[DJ Corbzy]

right....

[The Overfiend]

Isn't it.

[davethedrummer]

That's not right by any standard, I don't care if my girlfriend is standing over my shoulder while I'm writing, she gets credit.

she gets credit for standing over your shoulder? :?


gets credit for being you girlfriend more like

[Col]

dave, name & shame all the fake techno artists!!!

[Col]

i dont want to be thinking that a certain producer, is undoubtly talented, when it is infact someone else who did all the work.

[davethedrummer]

you've probab;y bought many records made in this way already
don't let it bother you just enjoy the music.

[The Overfiend]

That's not right by any standard, I don't care if my girlfriend is standing over my shoulder while I'm writing, she gets credit.

she gets credit for standing over your shoulder? :?


gets credit for being you girlfriend more like

Nah, not really I wouldnt go out with me, lol.

But since were on the subject, if I worked on something on the pc, brought it to the studio to be mastered and what not. Do you give production credit to the engineer? Or only if he was there for the reative process is what you're saying? From what I gathered you pretty much hooked all these cats up big time. Thats F*&Ked up if you didn't get credit, you should shout em out and let em get picked out by the vultures.