Filesharing.... illegal downloads etc..

[bayley]

ok, im sure that this has probably been covered on this forum (more than once) but since i have not come across this discussion yet, i am gonna start the debate...

Do u agree with such programmes as soulseek, limewire etc..

Do u download music from theses sites

And what impact do u think these programmes are causing for the future of techno...(af any)

i personally dont use soulseek or limewire anymore.... as im sure it did no favours to my computer when i have used it (spyware etc) and essentially, i look at it from a producers point of view... i wouldnt want my productions to be taken or stolen having put time into making it, just as artists probably wouldnt like their paintings to be stolen.


however i have used it in the past to get old dj sets (one of which was Mark EG from Strings of Life.... ****in gr8 set) as this is not affecting any1....as its not for sale anymore hence not hurting anybody.

[dtl]

I download huge amount of Mp3s, and I buy the records if I like them, and delete the ones I dont.

Love it.

[Sunil]

Do u agree with such programmes as soulseek, limewire etc..



In a nutshell, No.

[MARKEG]

it's an easy q to answer. if you want the new shit, the real deal then you have to pay for it, or network. if you wanna spend hours out of your life trying to find ways to be illegal then fair play, do it. i've been there bought the t-shirt and i got a huge buzz out of it. but if i'm being honest, if you want to be cutting edge, you have to f the trends and be a little more clever than just illegal downloading ;)

[rhythmtech]

i use soulseek for sets and thats about it (well maybe a little porn). i know people always say that but i'll tell you right now - my user name is rhythmtechnologies, so go have a looke at my files, and take whatever sets you want but you'll never find copyright material in my folders... so yes i find soulseek useful but on the other hand it is detremental to our scene as far as illegal d/l's go.

[Jay Pace]

I buy mp3 where possible. Failing that I'll try and buy on vinyl. Failing that I'll go on ebay or gemm and pay over the odds, or hunt about for obscure compilation cds. Failing that I'll soulseek an mp3 copy, which is invariably at a shitty bitrate and isn't really suitable for playing out. Few people have cottoned on the the 192k-320k sound quality gap, so soulseek is really a last resort.

Like mark said - got to be a bit smart about it. If you just steal music you are going to miss out. And to be honest, if you limit yourself to only buying vinyl you are going to miss out as well. Some records can't be sourced for love nor money, and unless you grab a copy from the interweb you are never going to get it.

I've downloaded tons of stuff that I'll listen to once and then delete, but thats turned me on to loads of artists whose records I've then tracked down and bought. Without the free download option I never would have come across them.

Same points come up time and again, and you guessed right - this argument has been done a lot before.
The main point is that its not clear cut, there are pros and cons to file sharing.
But I think a lot of blame has been unfairly laid upon filesharing for the problems in the industry. A lot of the problems were due the music industry failing the meet a consumer demand for music in mp3 format, and they were scuppered by their own reluctance to adopt new distribution models.

The soaring growth in legal and paid downloads is testimony to the fact that people are more than happy to pay for music if it is easy, affordable and convienient. The ipod generation want digital files. Tapes, CDs and minidiscs are becoming obselete.

Digital has made the costs to entry much lower for producers and digital labels. Digital distribution costs are minimal. What this will mean is that the market will start to become flooded with new producers and labels, and the importance of trusted channels and trusted content providers will increase.

Basically labels, shops and djs will become more important as it will be their responsibility to wade through the crap, filter it out and promote and sell decent music to a spectrum of niche audiences.

Exciting times whichever way you look at it. The people complaining are the people stuck in the last century who seem to think that music and the world owe them a living, and despite the fact that they have failed to moderninse its everyones fault that they are going out business.

[Miromiric]

i dont really give a :****, i ll download everything. if its really worth it i ll buy it.

[TechMouse]

FACT: The average filesharer spends approximately 10 times as much on music as the average non-filesharer.

I may download heaps of music, but I spend more than my fare share on vinyl and CDs, and I think in many cases an illegal download may well have led to a sale.

[Sunil]

FACT: The average filesharer spends approximately 10 times as much on music as the average non-filesharer.


Where do you get this fact from? What's your source? I'm genuinely interested.

[Jay Pace]

The Leading Question, a music industry research group, conducted a survey of 600 music fans who also own computers and mobile phones. the results?

"those who regularly download or share unlicensed music also spend an average of £5.52 a month on legal downloads through sites such as Apple's iTunes Music Store or Napster. Those who were not illegally filesharing spent just £1.27 a month on digital tracks.


http://arts.guardian.co.uk/news/story/0,11711,1536886,00.html

[TechMouse]

It was a report, ironically funded by the RIAA I think.

I don't have a link, but here's something similar.

http://www.unc.edu/~cigar/papers/FileSharing_March2004.pdf

[TechMouse]

The Leading Question, a music industry research group, conducted a survey of 600 music fans who also own computers and mobile phones. the results?

"those who regularly download or share unlicensed music also spend an average of £5.52 a month on legal downloads through sites such as Apple's iTunes Music Store or Napster. Those who were not illegally filesharing spent just £1.27 a month on digital tracks.


http://arts.guardian.co.uk/news/story/0,11711,1536886,00.html

Thanks Jay...

... and note, that's just legal downloads, not any kind of format.

[Sunil]

Cheers, I'll read those later when I have more time.

Basically though, there's filesharers and there's filesharers who take the piss.

A music scene without mass file sharing would be better in my opinion.

[TechMouse]

A music scene without mass file sharing would be better in my opinion.
I don't think there are that many "underground" (for want of a better term) producers who make their money through record sales alone. I think most supplant it with DJing etc.

I would go so far as to say I genuinely believe that filesharing does more to promote good quality underground music than, say, the music press.

[TheRev]

I use file sharing mostly to check out non-techno / dance stuff thats been reccomended to me. I tend to be extremely fickle with that stuff so I use it to test it out before buying.....

A lot of indie rock i'd never have otherwise made the plunge on got discovered that way.

As for techno, I'm still a junkie for the record store experience, and while I feel vinyl is on its way out, there's something magical about digging through crates and bullshitting with the local shop owner and other vinyl slingers that I will sorely miss when that finally goes away.

So no file sharing of that for me....

[Sunil]

I don't think there are that many "underground" (for want of a better term) producers who make their money through record sales alone. I think most supplant it with DJing etc.

Yeah, but this is irrelevant to what we're talking about really.





I would go so far as to say I genuinely believe that filesharing does more to promote good quality underground music than, say, the music press.

This is a good point, it's debatable mind... however I do think the music press needs a shaking up for sure. A bit more honesty and less backscratching or backhanders for favourable reviews would be a start, but hardly likely to happen.

[TechMouse]

... at the end of the day, filesharing is here to stay. End of story.

As soon as the powers that be get their arses into gear, legislate against it and then block whatever service is flavour of the month, another one (or six) will rise in it's place. This has been happening on and off for the last 7 or 8 years - all the while giving massive amounts of publicity to the various filesharing networks.

First it was Napster, then it was Audiogalaxy, then it was KaZaA, then Soulseek... the new champions are the truly distributed models like BitTorrent, eDonkey etc... all the while IRC bot networks have been bubbling away too.

It's like some massive field exercise in irony, and it's beyond a joke now.

[djshiva]

i actually found that sharing my mixsets and my own early tracks on slsk got me a HELL of a lot of publicity that i probably never would have gotten.

one of my earliest tracks, which sounded like crap but was a reasonably good tune, i gave to a couple of friends and within a week i was getting PMs from ALL OVER asking if that was my track. i have no doubt that led to more people picking up my records when they did come out. i have seen some of my released tunes on slsk, and while i want people to support the labels and buy the vinyls, i know that my stuff is getting out there.

there have been many attempts to squash filesharing and none of them have really worked. i, like one of the posters above, know that it's here to stay. so i figure i'll make the best of it and use it for what it's worth.

i have bought many of the records that i have downloaded on mp3 and conversely, i have downloaded a lot of the records that i already own in order to avoid having to encode them when i (hopefully) get serato scratch. since i don't have it yet, sometimes it's nice to burn off a few cds of stuff i have on vinyl for gigs, since i don't generally like bringing more than one record bag.

there is always going to be a downside to filesharing, but i gotta say that for me, it has been a great publicity tool, and i will keep using it in that manner. not to mention i have met tons of techno heads from all over the world and had some great conversations. :)

[Sunil]

Tapes, CDs and minidiscs are becoming obselete.

Tapes became obselete years ago, minidiscs never took off for recorded music, and CDs are still doing well, however record companies need to apply a fairer pricing system to them across the board, not just on older titles... on new CDs too.



Basically labels, shops and djs will become more important as it will be their responsibility to wade through the crap, filter it out and promote and sell decent music to a spectrum of niche audiences.

This isn't a new phenomenon man.



The people complaining are the people stuck in the last century who seem to think that music and the world owe them a living, and despite the fact that they have failed to moderninse its everyones fault that they are going out business.

Fair point. I guess many people didn't see it coming, however 'modernising' for some people, means totally changing what they're about. Not everyone buys into the digital file, it's convenient for some sure... but a bit unnatural to the real record collectors/lovers.

[Jay Pace]

Not everyone buys into the digital file, it's convenient for some sure... but a bit unnatural to the real record collectors/lovers.

People need to figure out whether they love/sell music or whether they love/sell vinyl.

If Kodak had insisted that they were in the business of selling photographic film they would be out of business by now.
Instead they identified that they were in the business of enabling people to capture images. Digital was just a natural development for them, and was adopted fairly painlessly as a natural progression of the industry that they were in.

Digital photos were regarded with extreme scepticism for aeons, and people will still testify to the superior quality of film, but digital is a big market and consumers want it. Whilst it might initially appear "unnatural" its a dangerous move to ignore it.



This isn't a new phenomenon man.

My point about trusted channels is more to do with entry costs. Yes, djs and labels are hardly new - but not everyone could put out a record 10 years ago. Now everyone with a broadband connection, a few mates and some cracked software can start up a new label featuring new artists and distribute their work through an online record shop. All at very little to no cost.

This isn't unique to music. Webzines & blogs are proliferating at an astonishing rate. Online radio stations and podcasts eclipse established radio channels. And with so much more media and content about consumers are increasingly more reliant on someone to cherry pick the good stuff for them. Good news for labels, djs etc - they are becoming more important because there is more content about now than there has ever been before. And as about a thousand people have complained before - 90% of it is all shite.

[Sunil]

People need to figure out whether they love/sell music or whether they love/sell vinyl.

Ok, we're losing track here. This isn't really meant to be about digital vs vinyl actually, but somehow we've got there again!
Anyway, I think Soulseek, Limewire etc. is ****in bollocks and predominantly for scrounging cunts who want to screw the artist, who don't consider labels or artists in any way... and many of them people who'll then turn around and say how little good music gets released today... I wonder why?. Ok, filesharing might be here to stay, but that doesn't mean there can't be opposition to it. I wish they were ALL closed down and outlawed.





but not everyone could put out a record 10 years ago. Now everyone with a broadband connection, a few mates and some cracked software can start up a new label featuring new artists and distribute their work through an online record shop. All at very little to no cost.

You think this is really positive?? It's just opening the floodgates to half assed 'labels'. Granted I can understand existing labels moving to become digital only, but as a new label starting out I think going straight into digital format displays a bit of a lack of ambition, either that or they just aren't ready to be a proper record label yet.
Anyway, a record is an actual physical record, not a few mp3s.



And with so much more media and content about consumers are increasingly more reliant on someone to cherry pick the good stuff for them.

Basically translated = People are now lazier bastards than ever.



Good news for labels, djs etc - they are becoming more important because there is more content about now than there has ever been before. And as about a thousand people have complained before - 90% of it is all shite.

Man, you speak so factually and I don't know where you're getting half of this from?? Good news for labels and DJs? Hmmm, I don't follow, I really don't.

[Jay Pace]

Its part of my job to know about this stuff. I can give you more information if you are interested. The digital filesharing issue isn't dissimilar to whats happening with TV, films and even the changes happening in print - people reading websites for free rather than buy the paper/magazine.

The filesharing debate is valid for vinyl because prior to filesharing the only way to get techno records was to buy them in vinyl format. You would buy them from a record shop, who would buy them from a distributor, who would have them pressed in a plant, etc etc all at a pretty high cost to the consumer.
Record shops wholly controlled access to music. If you didn't buy it in a record shop, you wouldn't get it at all. What digital is doing, starting with filesharing, evolving into services like napster or mp3 shops like beatport, is increasing the access points to music. Record shops no longer have a monopoly. Consumer's aren't dependent on vinyl, and huge swathes are turning their backs on it. Paying £8 a record doesn't have as much appeal when you can download tracks for a pound.

DJs and labels can become more important because instead of merely being access to points to music (i.e. the only way you can get to hear it) they can become trusted content providers. There is more content about now than ever before. This doesn’t make consumers lazy – it just that there are thousands of producers and artists out there, in addition to some 4000 magazines, 400 tv channels, hundreds of radio stations and millions of websites.

People need recommendation more than ever. They need labels to provide consistently good records, and djs to filter through the dross and play them the best music about. They need record shops to be more selective about the records that they stock. Its all part of a general movement from mass to niche.
Its not enough just to sell techno, or play techno, you need filter it out for a certain audience, who will grow to trust you and become loyal to you.

Not sure I’m explaining this well.
Sorry if you’re getting burned by all this as well – don’t you work in a record shop? I think filesharing is pretty shitty and would rather pay, but if I can’t get hold of records I want it’s a last resort option.

[Sunil]

Some good points man, I still think the 'good news' for DJs and labels is a little far fetched, but it does fit into the scheme of the points you are making I guess.

Re: Record shop... I do work at one, and my boss has certainly felt a bit of a pinch over the last few years. Downloading etc. is across the board, not just dance music so overall there has been a drop in business. If we were just dealing in techno, electro and house or something we probably wouldn't have stood much of a chance; but because we do other styles of non dance music and spread it all out, we can survive.

Other than filesharing, I think one of record shops main problems are online record shops like Juno etc. but that's just our own tough shit :)

I agree with shops having to filter the crap, it's something we all try our best to do, and it is ultimately what creates the identity of a shop. Being specialist enough, but also putting other people's tastes ahead of your own sometimes is important. There is the bread and butter stuff that has to be ordered in too.

I do have strong opinions on filesharing, sure, but it's not just because I work at a shop, but because I hate seeing how much filesharing is taking out of the scene, and how many talented producers or interesting labels have had to basically call it a day.

Personally I don't buy into the digital file so much myself, but that's personal preference, I know it's now a fact of life and that it suits some people better. If money does make its way back to the artist then great, I'm just not sure that this way of distribution and direction for labels is going to be as effective and rewarding as the previous model we had. Sure, it's the consumer that wins out most this time around, there just needs to be a fairer balance somehow... a cutback in filesharing and tougher legislation would, I hope, improve this situation.

[djshiva]

online stores have cut out the smarmy know-it-all record store guy behind the counter experience. not to say all record store employees are like that, but boy have i dealt with some jerks in my time. especially walking into an out-of-town store as a woman and getting the "who the **** are you and why are you here?" attitude (it happens to everybody, but the attitudes get really weird when you are female; no kidding).

that said, i have met some fabulous record shop workers who helped me find great stuff too. gramaphone in chicago, 611 in philly and planet x (when it was a physical store) being some of the best ones! :)

[Col]

i dont really give a :****, i ll download everything. if its really worth it i ll buy it.

my thoughts exactly.

but i dont really download techno anymore. i really cant be arsed with 1. the wait. 2. the strain on my CPU and 3. the more often than not dissapointing end product.

[module]

i use Azureus every f**kin day. and ya knwo what for ? tv. Family Guy & American Dad & IT Crowd & My Name Is Earl.

the only music i EVER d'loaded was Coldplay, Eminem & Ice Cube.

^^^ i dont think these artists are gonna miss the few £££

[TechMouse]

Record shops wholly controlled access to music.
Bingo.

Now the whole digital thing (whatever the format) has totally undermined the stranglehold the labels / shops had over the music industry, and they're mourning the loss of their monopoly.

Suddenly people aren't so keen to pay £7 a ****ing throw for a tune. I don't blame 'em. £7 for a piece of plastic is obscene.

Don't get me wrong, I buy loads of vinyl each month - and I'd never dream of playing out a CD-R of anything unless it's: A) my tune, B) a tune that I cannot get hold of any other way, or C) a joke of some description.

All this dedication to the scene is raping my bank balance though, that's for sure.

Perhaps if labels had a 3 tier structure: £1 download, £3 CD, £5 vinyl... then maybe people might not feel so utterly abused and end up downloading tunes illegally.