music is not ( supposed to be) free!!!!

[Buttman]

Now now. The ppl who think that music is made to be sold makes crappy music anyway.

[tocsin]

oh shut up tocsin.
get off your high horse

No high horse here, dude. I'm just calling you out on some hypocrissy that you've broadcasted in this thread. If you find your reflection ugly, don't blame me. You made the same excuses for pirating software and using samples that the kids who download MP3s use. Seriously, how do you know if any artist "cares" if you used their sample? Did you ask? Does it really matter if you buy "most" of your software? I'm not on the high horse here because I'm not the one bitching about "you damn kids" downloading my music or anyone else's. That would be you.

Anyways, there is a way we can all work to maximize profit through digital sales. So far, we have a number of stores online, or label storefronts here and there, which are completely decentralized. It makes a one-stop situation (like record stores used to be) less of a reality. So, given the number of different skills and assets everyone has here, why not start working on one universal portal?

Here's the general idea.

1.) Existing labels/storefronts do not need to go anywhere. They can continue to operate on their own. However, for updates to their catalog, they do it in a standardized format (similar to RSS) which can be instantly and easilly read from our collective centralized server were talking about here. When a new release goes up, the site finds it in at least 24 hours without any need for human interaction.
2.) A PHP/CGI/whatever frontend is used which can take advantage of a mysql database which will have links to distributed media on any server, as well as hiding the permanant URLs where such media is contained.
3.) The same script frontend stores some type of paypal/CC account which can be unique for every digital download linked on the site. Thus, when someone buys some media, there is no delay for the artist/label in seeing their money and it never passes through the server's technical owners.

If techno artists took it on themselves to hype the URL for whatever server is used, and that server is truly kept as an open portal for techno music, why would any of us need Itunes and, for many purposes, a physical store? You could sell full burnable CDs by ISO.

[dan the acid man]

what do you mean shut up? tocsin is totally right here. you just can`t be so convenient about these things. it`s ok for you to test a software here and there or to use a loop or two, but it is not ok if someone wants to download your record and see if it`s worth of buying?

so would you be happy for me to come around to your house and steal your equipment, money, food, drink, tv, hi-fi etc

[Miromiric]

i would be angry at you, but if i also happen to be a thief and steal from other people`s houses i would be a hypocrite.
that`s what i said earlier, but you just did not get it.

[dan the acid man]

i think we all need to agree to disagree as its going around in circles, although there have been some really good ideas on this subject.

[crime]

yawn.... same arguments going round and round...
and it seems some are just up for having a pop at certain people just for the sake of having a pop...
very big and clever....
might as well lock it, it's not going anywhere interesting, I was going to quote the cliche'ed saying about arguing on forums = special olympics but I fear that those involved have probably been told it enough times before already.....

[dirty_bass]

oh shut up tocsin.
get off your high horse

No high horse here, dude. I'm just calling you out on some hypocrissy that you've broadcasted in this thread. If you find your reflection ugly, don't blame me. You made the same excuses for pirating software and using samples that the kids who download MP3s use. Seriously, how do you know if any artist "cares" if you used their sample? Did you ask? Does it really matter if you buy "most" of your software? I'm not on the high horse here because I'm not the one bitching about "you damn kids" downloading my music or anyone else's. That would be you.

Anyways, there is a way we can all work to maximize profit through digital sales. So far, we have a number of stores online, or label storefronts here and there, which are completely decentralized. It makes a one-stop situation (like record stores used to be) less of a reality. So, given the number of different skills and assets everyone has here, why not start working on one universal portal?

Here's the general idea.

1.) Existing labels/storefronts do not need to go anywhere. They can continue to operate on their own. However, for updates to their catalog, they do it in a standardized format (similar to RSS) which can be instantly and easilly read from our collective centralized server were talking about here. When a new release goes up, the site finds it in at least 24 hours without any need for human interaction.
2.) A PHP/CGI/whatever frontend is used which can take advantage of a mysql database which will have links to distributed media on any server, as well as hiding the permanant URLs where such media is contained.
3.) The same script frontend stores some type of paypal/CC account which can be unique for every digital download linked on the site. Thus, when someone buys some media, there is no delay for the artist/label in seeing their money and it never passes through the server's technical owners.

If techno artists took it on themselves to hype the URL for whatever server is used, and that server is truly kept as an open portal for techno music, why would any of us need Itunes and, for many purposes, a physical store? You could sell full burnable CDs by ISO.


We need this shit like yesterday.
where do I sign, and what can I do to help.

[tocsin]

We need this shit like yesterday.
where do I sign, and what can I do to help.

We need to put together some type of initial team, just like any other business. For us, we'll need, at the very least:

1.) Programmers
2.) Web admins/people with server space
3.) Graphic Designers
4.) Promoters/Artists/Labels
The programming will likely be the biggest hassle since, as of yet, I've not found any scipts that do this in the way that could make it most flexable. Rather, they are written for specific storefronts. However, if some scripts already exist to make this idea work, hardcore programmers may not even be that necesary.

[Buttman]

WHEN I MAKE MUSIC I WANT TO EXPRESS SOMETHING TO THE ONES AROUND ME. THE MORE OF THEM THAT HEAR IT, THE BETTER. BE IT MP3, VINYL, CASSETTE OR WHATEVER.

I DO OTHER THINGS THAN MUSIC TO MAKE A LIVING.

sorry, no caps lock.

[SlavikSvensk]

what do you mean shut up? tocsin is totally right here. you just can`t be so convenient about these things. it`s ok for you to test a software here and there or to use a loop or two, but it is not ok if someone wants to download your record and see if it`s worth of buying?

so would you be happy for me to come around to your house and steal your equipment, money, food, drink, tv, hi-fi etc

i have to agree with miro...i just don't think it's that clear cut...

[SlavikSvensk]

We need this shit like yesterday.
where do I sign, and what can I do to help.

We need to put together some type of initial team, just like any other business. For us, we'll need, at the very least:

1.) Programmers
2.) Web admins/people with server space
3.) Graphic Designers
4.) Promoters/Artists/Labels
The programming will likely be the biggest hassle since, as of yet, I've not found any scipts that do this in the way that could make it most flexable. Rather, they are written for specific storefronts. However, if some scripts already exist to make this idea work, hardcore programmers may not even be that necesary.

great idea...pm me if you get it started up and i'll see what i can do to help...

[Mindful]

WHEN I MAKE MUSIC I WANT TO EXPRESS SOMETHING TO THE ONES AROUND ME. THE MORE OF THEM THAT HEAR IT, THE BETTER. BE IT MP3, VINYL, CASSETTE OR WHATEVER.



Spot on

[eyeswithoutaface]

oh shut up tocsin.
get off your high horse

No high horse here, dude. I'm just calling you out on some hypocrissy that you've broadcasted in this thread. If you find your reflection ugly, don't blame me. You made the same excuses for pirating software and using samples that the kids who download MP3s use. Seriously, how do you know if any artist "cares" if you used their sample? Did you ask? Does it really matter if you buy "most" of your software? I'm not on the high horse here because I'm not the one bitching about "you damn kids" downloading my music or anyone else's. That would be you.

Anyways, there is a way we can all work to maximize profit through digital sales. So far, we have a number of stores online, or label storefronts here and there, which are completely decentralized. It makes a one-stop situation (like record stores used to be) less of a reality. So, given the number of different skills and assets everyone has here, why not start working on one universal portal?

Here's the general idea.

1.) Existing labels/storefronts do not need to go anywhere. They can continue to operate on their own. However, for updates to their catalog, they do it in a standardized format (similar to RSS) which can be instantly and easilly read from our collective centralized server were talking about here. When a new release goes up, the site finds it in at least 24 hours without any need for human interaction.
2.) A PHP/CGI/whatever frontend is used which can take advantage of a mysql database which will have links to distributed media on any server, as well as hiding the permanant URLs where such media is contained.
3.) The same script frontend stores some type of paypal/CC account which can be unique for every digital download linked on the site. Thus, when someone buys some media, there is no delay for the artist/label in seeing their money and it never passes through the server's technical owners.

If techno artists took it on themselves to hype the URL for whatever server is used, and that server is truly kept as an open portal for techno music, why would any of us need Itunes and, for many purposes, a physical store? You could sell full burnable CDs by ISO.


We need this shit like yesterday.
where do I sign, and what can I do to help.

seconded, the very essence of this idea excites me and we need to get something down i think.

totally agree with tocsin we need to get a team assembled, unfortunately i cant programm, or have server space, but i am a producer/dj hehe... seriously though anything to help im in, i love this idea

[The Divide]

I like where this is going in relation to an online distribution/download portal, if anyone is serious about doing it I would be up for helping out especially once I graduate. My input would be part time and minimal, but if it’s run by a few like minded people I recon it would go a long way especially with the right QC

To be perfectly honest I have been setting up my own mp3 download site just to see how to do it. I thought in the future, I would cut record labels completely out of the picture and sell my music for next to nothing over my own website. Way I see it, is there’s nothing to loose apart from support from people who dj entirely on vinyl. This is why I bought this domain name in the 1st place

www.forbiddensilence.co.uk

crude and unfinished + its going to be marked as a uni project so its going to be filled up with bullshit until i graduate (lots of bullshit :lol:). It’s going to be striped down and used to sell wav or mp3. I wasn’t 100% sure I was going to use it but I wanted the option to be there and to know how it all works. It can be fully functional I know that. Another idea was not to release my tunes and just sell an hour mix of it performed. More than just an A5 mix tho, bring in diff things algorithmically and make it interesting to listen to at home.

See as Dave is, I too have been getting frustrated

My frustration is at how out of touch the scene is, who would have guess the techno scene would be filled with technophobes!

Btw I love vinyl, the sound, the feel, having something solid to latch on. But I don’t think it’s necessary anymore. I can understand how a lot of the older people can’t get their heads out music existing as nothing more than a digital file but you have to remember that in the history of mankind. It’s only in the last 50 or so years, that music has been associated with a product. The fact is, tomorrows generation are growing up in the middle of all this and I think I could be certain that in the future, they aint going to give a shit if its physical or not. Especially with all the new technology coming up, you think ipods are something special? They aren’t, soon you’ll be able to buy cinema tickets, pay for goods on portable devices, theres a massive race going on in the technology market to utilize all the new shit coming out – high speed connections, wi-fi, pda’s, small data storage devices, etc, etc

I know Toscin seems to rub up the old school on here, but really do think that his veiws are totally intouch with reality in the west

[dirty_bass]

Oh course digital is the future.
What does this have to do with theft though?

[The Divide]

just were this threads gone

Make the music more available and direct, its linked via an RSS feed and is made avaible to buy at a well reasonable price (because you dont have a middleman). If someone truelly dig it, they would folk out 50p for it, I know I would. Build your fan base up this way. Its the same pricipal that itunes has teken up to combat a 100% pirate industry

[Jay Pace]

People need to stop looking at it in terms of theft and crime.
If you aren't selling it, and its freely available, then people will take it.

Start selling it and people will start buying it.
You could sell dubplates made of solid gold and charge a thousand pounds each for them, but would it suprise you when people got hold of your music anyway? Would you call it theft, because you wanted people to buy your solid gold dubplate?

Its a silly example I know, but you can't make people buy something in a format they don't want.
Better off selling it to them in a format that they do want.
Labelling it all as theft, and deeming everyone to be a criminal just gets everything into murky waters.

[SlavikSvensk]

fellaz...we're almost at 20 pages! let's make the dream a reality!

[Mindful]

what do you think this is?
the Regis porsche thread

[Komplex]

top thread!

and I didn't even post anything yet ;)

can this be kept as a sticky or something? because this sort of topic goes round and round on here...

[davethedrummer]

tocsin i like your idea
not totally into the way you've been accusing me of whatever.....blah blah
but i like the idea nonetheless.

[fresh_an_funky_design]

WHEN I MAKE MUSIC I WANT TO EXPRESS SOMETHING TO THE ONES AROUND ME. THE MORE OF THEM THAT HEAR IT, THE BETTER. BE IT MP3, VINYL, CASSETTE OR WHATEVER.

I DO OTHER THINGS THAN MUSIC TO MAKE A LIVING.

sorry, no caps lock.


thats all well and good when your making music in your spare time. But if you depend on music for your income and to support your family then every sale counts and if someone is stealing your music your gonna be pissed.

[SlavikSvensk]

what do you think this is?
the Regis porsche thread

it's not?

[fresh_an_funky_design]

We need this shit like yesterday.
where do I sign, and what can I do to help.

We need to put together some type of initial team, just like any other business. For us, we'll need, at the very least:

1.) Programmers
2.) Web admins/people with server space
3.) Graphic Designers
4.) Promoters/Artists/Labels
The programming will likely be the biggest hassle since, as of yet, I've not found any scipts that do this in the way that could make it most flexable. Rather, they are written for specific storefronts. However, if some scripts already exist to make this idea work, hardcore programmers may not even be that necesary.



i hate to be the sceptic but there are already a lot of mp3 sites, with good techno catalogue's on... what is going to make this store stand out from the rest and attract the punters.

You really need to have a very direct idea about what your gonna do, otherwise it just wont work or at best it'll tick along.


i am interested in your idea none the less, but so far you havent convinced me that this store is gonna be any better than the competition.

[dirty_bass]

I don`t think there even is an argument, the points have been made already.
Yes digital distribution is the way, but individual sites, are not the way.
Too hard to promote, too much hassle for the customer.
Beatport etc is all ok, but it`s non specific, and doesn`t really do much to generate buzz, whereas a custom techno/underground place would.

[Komplex]

We need this shit like yesterday.
where do I sign, and what can I do to help.

We need to put together some type of initial team, just like any other business. For us, we'll need, at the very least:

1.) Programmers
2.) Web admins/people with server space
3.) Graphic Designers
4.) Promoters/Artists/Labels
The programming will likely be the biggest hassle since, as of yet, I've not found any scipts that do this in the way that could make it most flexable. Rather, they are written for specific storefronts. However, if some scripts already exist to make this idea work, hardcore programmers may not even be that necesary.



i hate to be the sceptic but there are already a lot of mp3 sites, with good techno catalogue's on... what is going to make this store stand out from the rest and attract the punters.

You really need to have a very direct idea about what your gonna do, otherwise it just wont work or at best it'll tick along.


i am interested in your idea none the less, but so far you havent convinced me that this store is gonna be any better than the competition.

Well for one, it would purely specialise in techno. From hard to soft and everything in between that has the techno vibe.

Beatport is a jack of all trades really. That is the difference.

[SlavikSvensk]

i think in terms of reach and relation to the artists and labels, it should be more like submerge than juno. @db: agreed on beatport.

[fresh_an_funky_design]

i agree but surely by only having techno you restricting your market audience.

i think i was a little too sceptical in the last post, but you need to think everything over to make sure you've got a succesful business model.


also would it be a sort of 50-80% to the label and rest to the company?

[fresh_an_funky_design]

i agree but surely by only having techno you restricting your market audience.




although i suppose if you specialise in techno you could really go for a massive market share in that genre, and really gear the site towards the techno consumer.

[dirty_bass]

What does beatport do for you?
If there was a one stop shop for undergournd music, for vinyl, for mp3, for mixes and promotions, it would be the dazzing.
And there is enough peeps in techno to allow it to support itself
There`s lower overheads, and if it becomes the place everyone goes it should survive nicely.

[crime]

Are you not all talking about something like this?: http://www.juno.co.uk/search/?q=digital+release&precision=all&genre_id=1203&rel eased=&sdate=&edate=

if you want to do digital releases why don't you just sell it to juno, or better still all the other online stores that do digital releases... sure you could probably work out selling wavs too....

[fresh_an_funky_design]

sounds like a really good idea, although i'm still not 100% sure exaclty what it is.

is it a single website or is it some kinda server we link our own shops to and it controls stock and payment etc

[dirty_bass]

Man, juno is horrible, and again, it`s an all in one.
Looks sucky, it`s a good place, but it`s not got a buzz around it.
The point I`m trying to make is that just sticking product on there isn`t enough.
You could have so much more.

[el salvador]

Man, juno is horrible, and again, it`s an all in one.
Looks sucky, it`s a good place, but it`s not got a buzz around it.
The point I`m trying to make is that just sticking product on there isn`t enough.
You could have so much more.

word

[djshiva]

WHEN I MAKE MUSIC I WANT TO EXPRESS SOMETHING TO THE ONES AROUND ME. THE MORE OF THEM THAT HEAR IT, THE BETTER. BE IT MP3, VINYL, CASSETTE OR WHATEVER.

I DO OTHER THINGS THAN MUSIC TO MAKE A LIVING.

sorry, no caps lock.


thats all well and good when your making music in your spare time. But if you depend on music for your income and to support your family then every sale counts and if someone is stealing your music your gonna be pissed.

at the risk of sounding like an ass, if you have a family and are relying on TECHNO to support them, that's probably the most irresponsible idea i have heard in a long time.

any income i make off of techno (production or djing) is merely supplemental. i am not saying that to sound like a purist, only a realist.

[crime]

at the risk of sounding like an ass, if you have a family and are relying on TECHNO to support them, that's probably the most irresponsible idea i have heard in a long time.

That's very easily said, but this does happen... the whole world is not like the US, I live completely of the money I make from music, I don't think it's irresponsible, it all depends how much money you are making, and whether you think you can make enough to live off of.. Its the same as for anyone who is self employed/ involved in creative industries.. I mean, I have a daughter, and I know for a fact if she is living with me, and times are looking hard, you find other work, simple as.. I know various people who have families who live from this thing.. Sorry, but I think to say anyone who tries to support their family from their income as an artist is irresponsible is a really judgemental thing to say..
so yes, you do sound like an ass :cheese:
sorry, couldn't resist, but you see my point yeah??

and re: the shops. personally if a lot of record shops are going over to selling mp3s as well as vinyl, well, that's perfect as far as I'm concerned. I mean by all means, if you want to set up something like that, go for it, but you really have to think of the amount of time money and investment that goes into setting up something like that.

I think a shop like juno have got it sussed as they don't have all their eggs in one basket, i.e. not just one format, but they do the lot, plus have 5 or so years experience of running something like that. AND along with net labels have vinyl labels with their releases in digital format.. they have it pretty sussed from what I can see, and I could see a lot of the current online shops going this way, along with having 12" vinyl, Albums and Cds, have the option of buying something as MP3 or WAV also... I found one of my own 12"s there as a digital release also, I knew the label were doing that, but I didn't realise it would go out through Juno also, so there must be some kind of digital distribution going on here... think I'm going to look into rereleaseing my label backcat as digital now.... ;)

[crime]

wow, 20 pages, have we learned anything yet????

[djshiva]

i guess a lot of my viewpoint on living off of music DOES have a lot to do with being from the US. the cost of living has just gone through the roof and artists/musicians have never garnered much in the way of respect or wages in the states unless you are some sort of pop idol, which most people aren't. i have known a few people who have managed to live overseas and done fairly well, as the cost of living seems comparatively lower there (i only have hearsay to base this on, obviously).

so admittedly i am a product of my environment...i concede that. i guess living here i have seen everyone i know, even those i considered "successful" constantly struggling, so that is all i know, ya know? no health insurance, no public transportation in many cities (lots of sprawl and rising gas costs...and even tho i know the rest of the world doesn't have cheap fuel, i have been told mass transportation is more accessible in other countries), and a rising gap between wages and cost of living makes it DAMN hard to live comfortably here and just pursue your music.

so yeah...i gotcha, crime. seeing the world through american eyes again...i admit even my well-read ass can get a bit myopic when it's what i deal with everyday. :(

[TechMouse]

1.) Programmers

The programming will likely be the biggest hassle since, as of yet, I've not found any scipts that do this in the way that could make it most flexable. Rather, they are written for specific storefronts. However, if some scripts already exist to make this idea work, hardcore programmers may not even be that necesary.

I'm a hardcore programmer, and I've got a reasonable amount of experience with PHP. I'll gladly put in a few hours a week if it's of any use.

;)

I don't know much about payment systems though.

[TechMouse]

Are you not all talking about something like this?: http://www.juno.co.uk/search/?q=digital+release&precision=all&genre_id=1203&rel eased=&sdate=&edate=

if you want to do digital releases why don't you just sell it to juno, or better still all the other online stores that do digital releases... sure you could probably work out selling wavs too....

Juno is all well and good, but you have to wade through a lot of crap to get to what you want.

Unless you know what you're looking for before you start.

[Jay Pace]

I think you want a "banging tunes" type affair.

Their forum is huge and they have a loyal following. The forum is just a spin off from the shop. Why not just go the opposite way and whack an mp3 store here on blackout?

[Si the Sigh]

^ Great idea! :)

[Buttman]

Fresh and Funky: Shiva took the words out of my mouth.

[crime]

i guess a lot of my viewpoint on living off of music DOES have a lot to do with being from the US. the cost of living has just gone through the roof and artists/musicians have never garnered much in the way of respect or wages in the states unless you are some sort of pop idol, which most people aren't. i have known a few people who have managed to live overseas and done fairly well, as the cost of living seems comparatively lower there (i only have hearsay to base this on, obviously).

I went through exactly the same thing when I was living in the UK, and the deal for me was either move to Germany or get a job... I'm really glad I did the former, it took one hell of a lot of pressure off, the UK is pretty expensive, especially London, wheras berlin is pretty much the cheapest big city in Europe.. I think some places are definitely "Artist" places i.e. high unemployment so everything is very cheap, but a lot of scope if you are doing something creative compared to a "Working" city like london, where the whole emphasis is money.. it definitely makes a big difference to your attitude to lif, and quality of life...

[Jay Pace]

I've got a friend who is moving out to Estonia for similar reasons. If you live in london you need to work...

But live in Tallin and suddenly you have a lot more options.

[holotropik]

I think you want a "banging tunes" type affair.

Their forum is huge and they have a loyal following. The forum is just a spin off from the shop. Why not just go the opposite way and whack an mp3 store here on blackout?

I also think that this could work here.

[fresh_an_funky_design]

WHEN I MAKE MUSIC I WANT TO EXPRESS SOMETHING TO THE ONES AROUND ME. THE MORE OF THEM THAT HEAR IT, THE BETTER. BE IT MP3, VINYL, CASSETTE OR WHATEVER.

I DO OTHER THINGS THAN MUSIC TO MAKE A LIVING.

sorry, no caps lock.


thats all well and good when your making music in your spare time. But if you depend on music for your income and to support your family then every sale counts and if someone is stealing your music your gonna be pissed.

at the risk of sounding like an ass, if you have a family and are relying on TECHNO to support them, that's probably the most irresponsible idea i have heard in a long time.

any income i make off of techno (production or djing) is merely supplemental. i am not saying that to sound like a purist, only a realist.



it may sound irresponsible to you, but some people do do it.

[fresh_an_funky_design]

and rising gas costs...and even tho i know the rest of the world doesn't have cheap fuel,


in the uk we pay more than double what you guys pay for fuel in the US

I think it works out as $8-9 a gallon, maybe more not sure what the exvhange rate is at the moment

[fresh_an_funky_design]

Fresh and Funky: Shiva took the words out of my mouth.


thats what makes this forum great, my opinion is completely different to yours.

if we all agreed on something it'd be a little boring

[FUSION]

WHEN I MAKE MUSIC I WANT TO EXPRESS SOMETHING TO THE ONES AROUND ME. THE MORE OF THEM THAT HEAR IT, THE BETTER. BE IT MP3, VINYL, CASSETTE OR WHATEVER.

I DO OTHER THINGS THAN MUSIC TO MAKE A LIVING.

sorry, no caps lock.


thats all well and good when your making music in your spare time. But if you depend on music for your income and to support your family then every sale counts and if someone is stealing your music your gonna be pissed.

at the risk of sounding like an ass, if you have a family and are relying on TECHNO to support them, that's probably the most irresponsible idea i have heard in a long time.

any income i make off of techno (production or djing) is merely supplemental. i am not saying that to sound like a purist, only a realist.



it may sound irresponsible to you, but some people do do it.

they should all get jobs then ****in hippies ;)

[davethedrummer]

my god!
i'm trying to keep up with this thread
but everytime i look theres another entire page of text.

one thing i would say to shiva about making a living from music/techno is......

it does seem irresponsible yes i grant you that.
but really what happenned to me was, it just ate up all my time until doing something else just wasn't on the cards any more.

the dj schedule is too chaotic , the studio work needs complete concentration ( i work as a studio engineer for other peolple at least 2 days a week ) , plus the hours of emailing / web based work , organising releases , making my own tracks , telephoning , then add some family chores and thats pretty much it for time.

simple as that really.

i don't think thats iresponsible

a bit odd maybe

but not iresponsible

anyway , great debate

i still want to moan at tocsin 'cos i still don't think he got me right...
but at the end of the day i really can't be assed and the debate has just got positive again.

i'm gonna have to go back and read now. :shock:

[tocsin]

tocsin i like your idea
not totally into the way you've been accusing me of whatever.....blah blah
but i like the idea nonetheless.

If I'm coming off as overly rude, my apologies. I get defensive about "free" music since, personally, that's what I prefer. And it just really peeves me when people pretty much equate the "free" scene with kids sitting in their dorm rooms, or parents' basement, downloading copyrighted music from their favorite artists which is for sale. I get particularly defensive about it because that argument is used, over and over again, by the mainstream for-profit industry as a reason to bully and shutdown ALL filesharing services.


i hate to be the sceptic but there are already a lot of mp3 sites, with good techno catalogue's on... what is going
to make this store stand out from the rest and attract the punters.
You really need to have a very direct idea about what your gonna do, otherwise it just wont work or at best it'll
tick along.
i am interested in your idea none the less, but so far you havent convinced me that this store is gonna be any
better than the competition.

Because, in the end, it's not really a store. It's a frontend. As an artist, why bother hyping a store? They often go out of business. They take a large enough chunk out of the sales for you to feel it. The idea would be to set up a domain as something like a permanant autonomous zone for all of us. Since it wouldn't be connected to a physical store, it could live on forever. If members of the admin staff get sick of running it, they pass it off to someone else, etc. Thus, for any artist or label that may decide to promote the site, it's a long-lasting result since there is no reason for it to disappear. The rent is to cheap. Second, the full sale proceeds go directly to the artist or label. There would be no pay or bill management coming from out part. We'd just be a credit register in that sense.

[tocsin]

I'm thinking I might set up an e-mail list for anyone interested in this idea, guys. I can do so when I get home tonight. I don't feel like I'm explaining how I'm looking at the store deal very well in the chaos of these threads. Plus, I'll set up a webpage where there is a flow-chart to show the structure/idea of the thing. We could use the e-mail list to hammer out ideas, have this thing start to take a shape, and then move from there. I'll post the subscribe info for the list later tonight as well. It will be completely private and run off my own server. Thus, not a source of spam.

[imported_sicknote]

damn good idea....

dont let this idea fade people

its somink that can and should be done...

with effort of course

[SlavikSvensk]

wow, 20 pages, have we learned anything yet????

either too much or too little. i'm not quite sure which

[koma]

one thing is sure, BOA has great potential, from which can all benefit (and I dont think on money)

[fresh_an_funky_design]

Because, in the end, it's not really a store. It's a frontend. As an artist, why bother hyping a store? They often go out of business. They take a large enough chunk out of the sales for you to feel it. The idea would be to set up a domain as something like a permanant autonomous zone for all of us. Since it wouldn't be connected to a physical store, it could live on forever. If members of the admin staff get sick of running it, they pass it off to someone else, etc. Thus, for any artist or label that may decide to promote the site, it's a long-lasting result since there is no reason for it to disappear. The rent is to cheap. Second, the full sale proceeds go directly to the artist or label. There would be no pay or bill management coming from out part. We'd just be a credit register in that sense.


i like the idea but still not 100% what it exacltly is.

Although straight sway the fact that the label gets 100% has me worried. This business needs to have some sort of income to pay advertising, webspace, admin costs.

[SlavikSvensk]

i like the idea but still not 100% what it exacltly is.

Although straight sway the fact that the label gets 100% has me worried. This business needs to have some sort of income to pay advertising, webspace, admin costs.

bingo. but if it's a co-operative, as i mentioned like 4 pages ago, the labels act as partners in the enterprise, share costs and also profits.

[djshiva]

my god!
i'm trying to keep up with this thread
but everytime i look theres another entire page of text.

one thing i would say to shiva about making a living from music/techno is......

it does seem irresponsible yes i grant you that.
but really what happenned to me was, it just ate up all my time until doing something else just wasn't on the cards any more.

the dj schedule is too chaotic , the studio work needs complete concentration ( i work as a studio engineer for other peolple at least 2 days a week ) , plus the hours of emailing / web based work , organising releases , making my own tracks , telephoning , then add some family chores and thats pretty much it for time.

simple as that really.

i don't think thats iresponsible

a bit odd maybe

but not iresponsible

anyway , great debate



i guess in some ways i am lucky to have a day job flexible enough to be able to pursue music as well. and luckily i like my job too. i don't necessarily BLAME anyone for doing what they love to make money. but i have been a musician in some form since i was a teenager (that was a long time ago), and at least here in the states, i gave up the notion that this was gonna be a "career" a while back. that doesn't mean i would blow it off if it happened, just that the reality is there are a gerbajillion djs and a gerbajillion producers, and even the most talented can linger in obscurity with those kinda odds.

if ya fall into it, rockin! but the entertainment world has always been fickle, and after struggling as a DJ/musician for years (even with a day job; still no health insurance tho...my teeth are falling out of my head), i just don't count on the income anymore.

kudos to those who have. not trying to slag you guys at all. and i think this whole thing is a positive conversation to have. :)

[SlavikSvensk]

there isn't any one right way to do things or how to live your life. if it works, it works. if it doesn't, it doesn't. that's really all there is to it.

[djshiva]

true enough.

[fresh_an_funky_design]

i like the idea but still not 100% what it exacltly is.

Although straight sway the fact that the label gets 100% has me worried. This business needs to have some sort of income to pay advertising, webspace, admin costs.

bingo. but if it's a co-operative, as i mentioned like 4 pages ago, the labels act as partners in the enterprise, share costs and also profits.


but shurely if its a co-operative then, it needs to stil take some percentage on sales so as to share out between investors, as not every label that signs up is gonna wanna be an investor. Some will just want the service and receive x amount for track sales

[SlavikSvensk]

i like the idea but still not 100% what it exacltly is.

Although straight sway the fact that the label gets 100% has me worried. This business needs to have some sort of income to pay advertising, webspace, admin costs.

bingo. but if it's a co-operative, as i mentioned like 4 pages ago, the labels act as partners in the enterprise, share costs and also profits.


but shurely if its a co-operative then, it needs to stil take some percentage on sales so as to share out between investors, as not every label that signs up is gonna wanna be an investor. Some will just want the service and receive x amount for track sales

of course. but those costs would be lower (since it would draw on existing resources) and the enterprise would reflect the needs and desires of the labels as partners, rather than just the enterprise itself

[fresh_an_funky_design]

what exactly do u mean by existing resources?

[tocsin]

Existing resources = things which random people in the community own or lease already and are willing to share (server space, bandwidth, etc.).

[RDR]

That;ll take some mighty organisation...

interesting idea though.

[abloke]

Hi,

havn't read all this topic. but I understand all the frustration that an artist can have when it comes to illeagal downloads.

Alas, they have shutdown the Razorback server, big news for the stop in all piracy. But what happens, someone else finds a new way to transfer files. P2P is a biggy at the moment, and like it or not, it's going to happen. to the anger of everyone, people will find a new way to sharing files ileagally. Preventing sharing appears not to be the solution as the internet is out of control.

France seem to have a reasonably good ide that they are debating at the moment. If you have an internet connection, you pay an extra fee which goes to record companies and film companies etc. It will be hard to organise this fairly with different labels and companies, but possible.

Internet is getting faster, and more and more people are on broadband, and more people know how to use e-donkey, limewire, and any bit torrent software. The problem is very hard to solve when it comes to beating people at the game which they are better at.

[Athar]

im agree with you henry 100000%, that what i said you in pm before, everywhere is plenty of thivers but its really pain when your near freinds and peeps whos you trust try rob you and we see its happen all the time ....
its a war, we cant win but we can do something, JUST SUPPORT and **** the mp3s.

[Analog.1]

I think the way forward is for artists to sell their own directly via the internet.

I dont think selling compressed audio formats like MP3s to people is the way forward. If you own a MP3 you dont own the whole song, you own a compressed version of the song which means there is lots of audio information missing which will effect sound quality. Theres something not quite right about it... Its like buying a new car but a part of the engine is missing (but u might not notice so its ok)... lame.

Artists could sell CDs or distribute uncompressed .wav/.aiff files of tracks online, they will obviously take longer to download but at least your getting the real deal , I think anyone who values music will be more than happy to download / buy uncompressed audio directly from the artist including me...

[holotropik]

http://www.futureofmusicbook.com/

A blog written by a dude who has done some massive amounts of research, worth a read....

[robin m]

Bloody hell this is a long thread, I haven't read it all so I'm probably not adding anything new but here's my 10p worth anyway:

I can totally see the frustration in having unreleased stuff appear on soulseek, but like crime said the future is now and this sort of stuff is going to happen like it or not in this age of the internet. I think artists have to accept that this sort of thing is going to happen to an extent no matter what... this is surely particularly true with techno which has always been synonymous with a '**** you' attitude and a reluctance to pay for a good time. Like someone's already said stay up forever were happy enough for their cds to be taped back when it all started, surely using the net to do the same is a logical progression of the same ethos at the end of the day?

As I see it if someone plays a copied tune out somewhere that's indefensible - the promoter should take responsibility and not book them again. If someone downloads a tune and listens to it in their bedroom - it's not right, but it's always going to happen and it's just a continuation of the attitude that spawned techno in the first place... if they're a true fan and if it's good they'll always go buy the record - nothing you can get on soulseek will ever match that.

Making a decent living from techno was always going to be nigh-on impossible - that attitude problem makes for fantastic parties but I wouldn't want to rely on it to pay my rent :(

[massplanck]

http://www.futureofmusicbook.com/

A blog written by a dude who has done some massive amounts of research, worth a read....

"Hey mister record man, the joke's on you/ Running your label like it was 1992/ Hey mister record man, your system can't compete/ It's the new artist model, file transfer complete."

:lol:

[holotropik]

hehehehe......yep dat troo!!

[Si the Sigh]

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d39/dj_deano/dj-saddam.jpg

[The Divide]

:lol:

[Stompinraver]

Any good (full) tunes that are put on a highly recognized Digital Mp3 Store with like 1 minute samples I'd buy from! I think the problem is Itunes doesn't really sell much underground dance music. Especially Hardstyle, which is all European sites which i cant understand anyway :P In my opinion i think if underground dance is trying to avoid being ripped off by free fileshare programs, a digital download site should definately be established!

[oldbugger]

Any good (full) tunes that are put on a highly recognized Digital Mp3 Store with like 1 minute samples I'd buy from! I think the problem is Itunes doesn't really sell much underground dance music. Especially Hardstyle, which is all European sites which i cant understand anyway :P In my opinion i think if underground dance is trying to avoid being ripped off by free fileshare programs, a digital download site should definately be established!


beatport :)