music is not ( supposed to be) free!!!!

[davethedrummer]

and it never will be
so get that through your thick heads
all you people who download tracks from illegal sources
just this weekend i discovered all my new releases are on soulseek already before they have been released.

all i can say is
f@@@ck you you F@cking c@nts !!!!!

stealing my music is like robbing my house
don't expect any sympathy from me.

so you are poor

ahhhhhhhhh diddums ..........aren't we all???

so you are on the dole...........hahahaha.....i was on the dole for ten years !!!!!! ten years man!!!! don't tell me what it's like to be poor.

get a job you lazy f@ck!

that is it

my music is MY MUSIC
get it?????


GET IT??????

do i have to stick my fist down your throat?


it is war

it has to stop

illegal downloads are the END of underground music

how more explicit can i be??

pay for your music

feed your favourite artists


or lose it forever

[Dirtyacid]

henry i could,nt agree more I don,t produce myself yet im working on it but i would chop the bastards fingers off if i found people doing that it must be a real kick in the balls when you put all that work into a tune for some halfwit t-wat to steal it I hate thiefs why can,t the music industry as a whole do something about it & get rid of file sharing site,s for good are they not illiegal with all copy right etc ??

[dirty_bass]

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[lunatrick]

thats rough man.....i mean a dj set is fair game as far as I'm concerned - but brand new product is a different story. It would seem that you're going to have to stop any mp3 samples and get onto this digital download thing for money pronto (i know truelove have started this, and juno are now offering a similar thing.) how did this stuff get there? surely not from anybody who has access to the original masters or tp's? in which case it must be from samples from your site? i think most people who are into downloading would rather the proper high rip rate fully intact original for a small fee???

10 years on the dole? slacker :cheese: :cheese:

[lunatrick]

ok just a thought.......and I realise I'm playing devils advocate here, but I do seem to remember one of the 'it's not intelligent' series having a graphic saying 'home taping is killing the music industry - good job too - tape this for your mate if he can't afford to buy it'......seems some people are now taking this to ultimate extreme! unfortunately technology has advanced this principle to another level?

[dan the acid man]

it never ceases to amaze me how selfish people can be, to steal from people who are struggling to help keep the scene alive is shocking

[RDR]

I expect you will be taking legal action henry?

[koma]

how did it get online before releasing?
someone ripped promos?

[The Teknoist]

yeh man, my Planet Mu release popped up on soulseek just before it was released and today i found a site that was giving away mp3s of 10 of my tracks that had been released. The cheek of having a top ten 'The Teknoist tracks' and just putting them there to download...

wounded

[Miromiric]

i don`t see where`s the problem. so, someone ripped promos? boo****inghoo.
now you will sell 1500 instead of 1800 records or whatever.

[echodek]

no one should steal music... but things do seem to be changing. new netlabels are popping up every day that allow free, legal, downloads. at the moment, most of these netlabels are serving up cold tripe... but the quality and diversity is improving all the time and the way people source their music is changing.

i'm sure most people, like me, are more than happy to pay for good music, but are even happier when someone gives it away... But only with the artist's consent of course!

[dan the acid man]

no one should steal music... but things do seem to be changing. new netlabels are popping up every day that allow free, legal, downloads. at the moment, most of these netlabels are serving up cold tripe... but the quality and diversity is improving all the time and the way people source their music is changing.

i'm sure most people, like me, are more than happy to pay for good music, but are even happier when someone gives it away... But only with the artist's consent of course!

but these people aren't doing it for a living (well im guessing they're not, as they'd have no income coming in).

so when you have mouths to feed, bills to pay, trying to keep record labels going, you can expect to be pissed off when somebody steals your work

[massplanck]

i don`t see where`s the problem. so, someone ripped promos? ****.
now you will sell 1500 instead of 1800 records or whatever.


you heartless bastard.

[davethedrummer]

i don`t see where`s the problem. so, someone ripped promos? ****.
now you will sell 1500 instead of 1800 records or whatever.

yeah right

you know what your talking about don't you ?

[davethedrummer]

sorry to come up so angry about this earlier
but it really did my head in
and to top it off i was with a guy who had downloaded my trax
in spain this weekend, and he didn't seem to think it was wrong.
i really couldn't get into it with him
as he was playing for the guys i was working for and it would've got heated if i had.
the guy did apologise in the end after i kind of gave him a
" you are stealing my music " kind of look.
and he turned out to be nice enough
but the point is
how many other guys are doing it?
especially in countries where vinyl is dissapearing
and what can be done about it ?

[eyeswithoutaface]

be extra vigilant who you give promo's too? do some net-only releases now and then to balance out the loss on vinyl earnings?

it's a shitter definately, id of personally lamped the guy in question mate heated or not, what a clown

[dan the acid man]

i don't think you can stop it now, like eyes said, just be careful who gets a promo.
it's crazy that some people just don't think doing this is wrong

[Miromiric]

i don`t see where`s the problem. so, someone ripped promos? ****.
now you will sell 1500 instead of 1800 records or whatever.

yeah right

you know what your talking about don't you ?


10000 instead of 10100?

[davethedrummer]

i don`t see where`s the problem. so, someone ripped promos? ****.
now you will sell 1500 instead of 1800 records or whatever.

yeah right

you know what your talking about don't you ?


10000 instead of 10100?

miro
stop playimng devils avocado
it doesn't suit you.

go back to wanking at porn on the net
stick to what your good at eh?

[audioinjection]

good post dave, i totally agree

[FUSION]

bad shit defo. free dj`s sets is great and i stand by the fact that P2P is awsome, for that. but when you get some twat uploading unrealsed shit, or realeased vinyl that people d load. that harsh. how did they get on there in the first place????

[dirty_bass]

sorry to come up so angry about this earlier
but it really did my head in
and to top it off i was with a guy who had downloaded my trax
in spain this weekend, and he didn't seem to think it was wrong.
i really couldn't get into it with him
as he was playing for the guys i was working for and it would've got heated if i had.
the guy did apologise in the end after i kind of gave him a
" you are stealing my music " kind of look.
and he turned out to be nice enough
but the point is
how many other guys are doing it?
especially in countries where vinyl is dissapearing
and what can be done about it ?

I just woulda taken something of his in front of him.
Maybe his i pod or something.
And said "hey, what`s wrong with it, I can`t afford one"

Ask them if they pay for their drugs or their beer, or their shoes?

It`s bollocks.

[dirty_bass]

Hey, I thought I was devils advocado.
No fair.

[dan the acid man]

Hey, I thought I was devils advocado.
No fair.

we'll have to work out a rotor for the pitchfork

[conflict]

that does suck mate, when ur music is your main source of bread

i'll not even try to deny that i download dj sets, but i can hand on heart say that i've never downloaded a track for free

on the contrary i find it quite a buzz paying for records, waiting for the arrival then opening up the beast and letting rip

obviously i'm one of a dying breed

:roll:

[massplanck]

Hey, I thought I was devils advocado.
No fair.

:lol:

http://www.museums.org.za/bio/images/enb7/enb07424x_avocado.jpg

[MARKEG]

i am 200000000000% with you henry and all you guys that agree.

it's happpening to me all the time.

but you know what i repsect here?

h, and so many of you, have stood up and said something in this post.

as of now, us artists and posters need to club together and sort this.

tell me what to do to make this site focused towards this. in fact, perhaps change the logo? 'stop illegal music downloads' underneath?


100% behind this.

:)

[MARKEG]

ps anyone with 1/2 a brain realises aritsts need to be paid for their music.

:thumbsup:

[baptismo]

out of interest why are you using soulseek if you don't download music for free?

i totally agree with you mate, i think it sucks that people can't see that if you're downloading/uploading tracks from an artist who is (like most in the underground techno scene, infact every scene that used to rely on vinyl sales) struggling to sell enough records to keep the labels and themselves afloat then you're f.ucking everything up for everyone else.

i don't know if i agree with the title of this post, i think probably music is meant to be free, but the fact is that if you're making music as your full time occupation then you totally deserve to make ends. so to pay the small price of a vinyle or (even better) a couple of freaking quid for a download is not too much to ask!

[baptismo]

shit ive just realised ive posted as jon. its log:one.

[nihilist]

so where did the downloads from? if they came from promos would cutting out promos be one answer? is there a need for promos when a label or artist is established? i cant help feeling a little grieved when i order tunes online and a promo is sent, mainly because the artist doesnt recieve money from it(or do they?) and two because it has no information of the artist on it.

i cant get my head round anybody who prefers a downloaded file to an actuall product either,maybe that's just me,it just seems wrong!!

that must of been a one hell of situation that Henry found himself in over in spain must have been hard to surpress his fellings,i don't think i could have held back.

[Miromiric]

miro
stop playimng devils avocado
it doesn't suit you.

go back to wanking at porn on the net
stick to what your good at eh?[/quote]

this was very rude.
maybe i really don`t know what i am talking about here. i thought hardhouse music sells similary to techno, so i didn`t really know what all the fuss was about. i guess i was wrong. my apologies.

[Miromiric]

did any of you ever download a dj set? do you realise it is as illegal as downloading tracks? how about warez?
did any of you ever let their mixes go online for other people to download them, without paying royalties to producers in your mix? do you realise how illegal is that?

[crime]

i totally agree with you mate, i think it sucks that people can't see that if you're downloading/uploading tracks from an artist who is (like most in the underground techno scene, infact every scene that used to rely on vinyl sales) struggling to sell enough records to keep the labels and themselves afloat then
Ok, fair enough....


you're CENSORED everything up for everyone else.
???? don't quite get what you mean...



i don't know if i agree with the title of this post, i think probably music is meant to be free,

So, you think music is meant to be free?? and by saying that, completetly contradict what you said above.. Sorry for singleing you out here Baptismo, that's not intended, but this post demonstrates a lot of what I see here, check out the other threads on this forum and people are quite happily talking about what they downloaded here and there, then the moment a known Producer after noticing some of their new releases are up there before the vinyl has cooled from the pressing plant says something about it here, a lot of those people who were previously talking about DLing in a different thread all line up to take the moral high ground, it's blatent hypocracy.... I'm not saying this because I want to dig at people, it's just an observation..

anyhow, my own view:
Let's get real here, soulseek and things like that are not going to go away so I think you have to be realistic about it.. yes, it's damn annoying to see a load of your new shit up on a filesharing thing when you're finding it hard to even get the money back to cover the cost of the cut and press, but telling people on a forum not to do it is not going to do shit, you know? I presonally see it as a reality of the market place, and in the techno thing now, I think this puts emphasis on performance i.e. doing unforgettable live acts that you had to be there to see... see, that's something that can't be stolen, ok maybe you can get recordings floating about on the net, but if every live performance is different , then this means nothing anyway... You're right, this whole filesharing thing doesn't help matters right now, but it ain't gonna go away, and people who are really into the music will always buy the record..

[RDR]

@Dave - It'd be nice to say that pinning one on the fella in spain would have made an impact (pun intended) but doubtless it wouldnt have, other than to serve the great god of "That DJ has a bad rep"

The ONLY viable solution currently available is legal action, unfortunately pinning it on something such as soulseek would cost VAST amounts of cash for little return.

So who CAN help us? the industry? they've proved to be toothless in so far as being able to stop people who REALLY want to download a track. The actions they have taken against people who download in the courts are mnimal, in fact the phrase "Downloading is killing the industry" is a misnomer, "Uploading is killing industry" is closer to the truth and majoritvily the legal actions have been aimed at indidivudals who have hundreds of tracks for upload.

The money they were fined was around 15,000 pounds, a urination in the ocean of money that have scammed from the pockets of the industry. INDUSTRY thats the key word, its one used many times and refers to the entity of music production/distro as a whole. The biggest problems is that the artists who serve the industry traditionally recieve very little in compensation for their efforts. Its the industry big wigs who are concerned about the profits seeping away so that next years porsche looks that little bit further away...

But ALL of that relates to major labels who have a POP output, not indies who dont have the cash to force court based solutions, and more to the point there are little or no accurate figures related to the downloading of tracks belonging to people like Dave the Drummer. In fact the major players in the industry have little or no interest in protecting the underground interests or smaller minor artists.

the way the industry behaves ATM reflects this, artists seem to come from no-where and go back to no-where VERY VERY quickly. The model moves rapidly because the labels need to dump someone in the publics eye quickly, take advantage of the returns and then not bother to invest long term in an artist as the return quickly drops as more people latch on an the internet becomes awash with copies of their latest album. The chart sounds fresh ATM, but is pretty unstable.

Thats how i see the industry's attitude ATM, i cant pretend to know any kind of solution, other than the obvious one, playing live and ONLY live, but even that aint perfect.

[RDR]

presonally see it as a reality of the market place


I disagree, i think its a reality of people being able to get something for free. Market place means an exchange of goods.

[tOM B]

ps anyone with 1/2 a brain realises aritsts need to be paid for their music.

:thumbsup:

i totally agree with this. at the end of the day i think many of us would like to be able to earn some out of music so we should support each other and be prepared to spend some on it as well.

[Ritzi Lee]

maybe i really don`t know what i am talking about here. i thought hardhouse music sells similary to techno, so i didn`t really know what all the fuss was about.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

I'VE WISHED!!

Wouldn't that be something.

[koma]

promoters and club owners should NOT call dj's that play cd's with downloaded/stolen tracks! **** them! if you have your own production, ok, use it in set, if you dont, **** off.

on the other hand, I know its strange for club owners to pay some dj few hunderds or few thousands of euro for some 2-3 hour performance, cause they know some kid living next door, that will the same music on cd's for like 20, 30 euro all evening... its going on everywhere, but we can't do shit there, it has to come from the state.. if inspection find you're playing illegal music in your club, we will shut it down. end of story.

who wants to sue kids on kazaa and soluseek downloading tracks for home listening and end up with an image like metallica? most of these kids WONT buy your records, realise that, what will they do with 3 or 4 tracks lasting like 5 or 6 minutes... since most techno is looped, its quite boring to listen the entire track from beginning till the end, in most cases it is sorry. maybe not if your dj, but for ordinary kids it is.
thats why sets are more interesting for download. thats why kids won cds, compilations. thats why techno community needs to think about mixtapes that will be cheaper than cds in shops. mixtapes like those in hip hop scene....

why kids download tracks then? dunno, maybe they want to check stuff they saw on some playlists, for collection most of which they havent even listen properly, to able to spot it on party, to be able to write down on forums what tracks they have recognised... theres dozens of reasons..

other than that, we already discussed about the QUALITY of releases! for me its bigger issue then this. imagine yourself in some kid's place: why would you, as no dj, buy a record with one track I like, the rest is ermmm bla..? would you buy it? of course not, you are a kid, you cant afford it! so, kids arent the problem, the problem are fake djs, some kind of pressure should be made to get them out of work...

also, producers are sending their tracks to various labels to get released, quality tracks on cd. some labels tend to send around mp3's of new stuff in newsletters, for their friends, reviewers etc., cause its easier then sending vinyl. but ****, you just cant trust everyone. not everyone has same views on spreading music over internet.

[Ritzi Lee]

thats why sets are more interesting for download. thats why kids won cds, compilations. thats why techno community needs to think about mixtapes that will be cheaper than cds in shops. mixtapes like those in hip hop scene....


F@CK!!
That's a good one.

[koma]

before, dj used to sell those mixtapes from the back of their cars. kids would get new stuff, and new names (both djs and producers) would get chance to showcase their skills.. labels would pick some from those tapes...
but, it took them years to get out of the underground and get recognition, and equal worth as albums..
now, early mixtape djs are considered to be stars and labels are hiring them to put out their new releases on streets like that

now, lets get back on CD DJ-s.. there is more and more of them, lets not get into reasons why or do you like it or not.. they are here to stay, period.
lets say they want to play legal music. how many good compilations, unmixed is there on the market, so they can use it? how many good tracks isnt getting released on cds?

[oldbugger]

i dont see why you let it get to you. did you ever tape stuff as kids? of course you did.
home taping was supposed to kill music, luckily it never did neither will a few illegal downloads.

if i was making a living from music i'd be happy with that i was doing what i loved be thankful i was leaving an impression on the kids that were stealing my music. thats all it will be...kids. they wouldnt of bought your record anyway so i very much doubt they are taking anything away from you at all.

i'd be happy that people wanted to steal my music actually. imagine if nobody gave a shit what you were doing at the moment. then you really would be pissed off. just a thought ;) (i may happen soon)


or you could always go and get a real job like me and work for a living :razz: :lol:


the above post is not to be taken too seriously ;)

[koma]

i know there are smilies but someone could get you wrong ;)

i do believe mr drummer and lots of people out there are working their ass off and are lucky to do what they love.. but luck doesnt pay your bills..
on the other hands, either in mainstream, underground, overground.. it is live performance that is paying your bills, not releases, we all know that. I mean, isnt that the reason why so many producers get into dj-ing and live PA-ing?

on the other hand, dont forget there are also producers that are working on cracked, illegal software. I wonder how many of them claim their right to get paid for production too, hm...

[oldbugger]

i just fid it funny the way certain dj's claim how thwey have it so tough.

for ****s sake. playing a few records up and down the country for money is most peoples idea of heaven. one 2 hours set is worth more than most people on here probarbly earn a week.

[Jay Pace]

I think its harsh that people are getting burned on this, and it must really sting that this was with promos but I really think that the horse is out the gate on this one.

You are never going to be able to restrict access to music like you could 10 years ago.
The moment something goes on sale someone will sample it and distribute it. It becomes digital even if you only released it in vinyl.

If you can't beat'em, join 'em. Sell your tracks online, cut down on production and distribution costs and use music more as self promotion.
The more people that know and love you the more will pay to come and see you perform.

I feel for people on this but I don't think anything is going to stop this.
Sorry to be a downer.

[Francisco Scaramanga]

It must really suck to find your stuff getting shared out on the net before its even released. I would definately be pissed off too. But I think people go a bit overboard with it all. As has already been said, nothing can be done about it.

I really have to echo what oldbugger is on about as well. I really really dont mean any disrespect here at all - but - there are a lot of us in this scene who dont make a living from techno. I work all week in a job that I hate, but I still find time to make tunes and promote nights as well. I never expect anything back from any of that really, thats what the day job is for, all the music stuff I do is cause thats what I enjoy doing with my spare time, and thats how I choose to spend my hard earned cash.

I have many times payed a DJ more for an hour and a half of playing records than I earn in an entire MONTH. So when I hear people moaning about illegal downloads, I feel sorry to a point, but then I think, well at least you arent slaving in a shop serving the cunting public all day for barely over minimum wage.

Seriously - those of you who make a living from this thing we call techno, even if you make what you consider to be a shit living from it, I bet you make a whole shitload more than I do, whether your tunes are getting downloaded illegally or not. Doesent make illegal downloading ok, but how could anyone seriously think that filesharing could destroy underground music?

[preach]

dave: been preaching the same for ages now... but you know what i realised? everybody talks but not so many cares. like 'yes yes its ashame' and then those guys have all soulseek and download like crackheads.

its a matter of time before people start realizing they have to pay for their music. in fact its already starting well on various digital shops, we sell more and more of our stuff online. the more we talk about it the more people will be conscient.

i also realised recently that alot of people in eastern europe and south america dont have access to credit cards... it becomes too easy for them to get the tracks without paying.

i saw many of my releases appearing on soulseek before i even get the promos. some assholes get the promos and rip them all for sure!

[koma]

you wouldnt believe how big taxes djs are paying in eastern europe for few ordered ninyls. same stories i heard for south american guys, but the amounts of money in question are bigger. its one of the reason some of them decided its easier to play on cds.

but, it also a part of market that should be covered, and it isnt right now.

making music available legally online and through more cd compilation + getting fake djs out of work, thats the solution...

[Jay Pace]

making music available legally online and through more cd compilation + getting fake djs out of work, thats the solution...

Absolutely spot on. Couldn't agree more.

[dan the acid man]

did any of you ever download a dj set? do you realise it is as illegal as downloading tracks? how about warez?
did any of you ever let their mixes go online for other people to download them, without paying royalties to producers in your mix? do you realise how illegal is that?

yes downloading sets is illegal, but i honestly feel it helps the scene alot.
its good promotion for the dj/artist, plus it helps to sell records, how many mixes have we all listened to and thought, ooh, whats that tune ?
then we go out and buy it

[oldbugger]

did any of you ever download a dj set? do you realise it is as illegal as downloading tracks? how about warez?
did any of you ever let their mixes go online for other people to download them, without paying royalties to producers in your mix? do you realise how illegal is that?

yes downloading sets is illegal, but i honestly feel it helps the scene alot.
its good promotion for the dj/artist, plus it helps to sell records, how many mixes have we all listened to and thought, ooh, whats that tune ?
then we go out and buy it

its still illegal. we cant have one rule for one ane one rule for another. maybe there artist that are pissed off their tunes are getting heared all over the internet from the latest dave the drummer set thats avaiilable from just about anywhwere online.

personally i would be happy. but its exactly the same.

a lot of artist (like dave the drummer for example) have a lot to be thankful for from the internet making their careers bigger and more profitable IMO.

dave the drummer was just an example by the way.

[crime]

I disagree, i think its a reality of people being able to get something for free. Market place means an exchange of goods.

It is a reality of the market place, because it affects sales, it's exactly the point that money isn't changing hands that makes it a reality of the market place, are we just trying to be pedantic here for the sake of argument?? :eh:

and in regard to mix tapes/Cds, I would say this market has been affected 10 times more by Mp3 downloads, and the reason you don't see so many mix or Live cds, or CD album releases is because it's not so viable in the current climate when it's going to end up on soulseek straight away anyway.. This is why only really big artists are releasing Mix comps, as they're going to have to sell a fair few to cover the licencing costs to all the labels that have trax on the mix.. Still feel ok about downloading sets off SS?

Vinyl sales have decreased for a number of reasons in my opinion, Mp3 downloads have had an effect for sure, but there are other considerations that have to be made, there are many more people having a crack at producing and running the labels, and techno is no-where near as popular as it was 10 years ago, and this is a reality that has to be faced, no matter how much faith you have in the scene..

And legal action is not an option, there is simply not enough money in this scene to make it viable, Lawyers and going to court costs money, probably a damnsite more money that you are going to be awarded if you did win a case....

And in regard to the old chestnut "Djs earn in a night more than I earn all week", this is very easily said when you're sat in front of your computer bored at work, but stop to think for a minute for all the other weekends a DJ/Live act might not have a gig.. that might be their only gig of the month... which means that might just about only cover their rent for that month.. Because I'll tell you now from personal experience, there are very, very few artists that are booked every night, every weekend, and the ones that are probably don't even stop to think about Mp3 downloads as they are most probably earning enough for it not to bother them too much..
This is what makes the difference between selling 1000 records and selling 1200, those 200 records could well be the profit that you are going to miss out on...
And anyone out there who thinks it's their idea of a "Dream job" really has no idea what it entails to live this thing 24/7, and whilst for myself, I would never moan about it, (and count my blessings I don't work a shitty factory job) I would love to see them live their life as a touring Producer/DJ and then come back to me and say the same thing, being away from friends and family, having times when you don't know how you will pay your rent next month, having to travel long distances whilst REALLY tired, not being able to do what YOU want on a weekend, can really be a drag sometimes, and it's only pure love for the music and being lucky enough to do what you do that gets you through it, it ain't all living it up, private jets, fast cars and fast women, I can tell you that now.....

Anyway, Henry, sorry to hear someone pushed this under your nose so much, I had a similar experience once in Leipzig when someone showed me a white label they had pressed themselves of a very rare record of mine, although I was kind of impressed at the dedication that had driven someone to do that, and the original was nigh on impossible to get hold of....

[Miromiric]

yes downloading sets is illegal, but i honestly feel it helps the scene alot.
its good promotion for the dj/artist, plus it helps to sell records, how many mixes have we all listened to and thought, ooh, whats that tune ?
then we go out and buy it

definitely. my point was - let`s not be hypocritical about the whole thing by being righteous about one aspect of the story and conveniently not even thinking about the other.

[Jay Pace]

Good points.

On vinyl sales decreasing....

Newspaper circulation is also decreasing. Titles like the times see a drop year on year. They shrank the paper to make it easier for people to take on the tubes & buses, but circualtion kept dropping. Meanwhile more and more people started using the times website for free.
People like reading the times, they just didn't necessarily want it in print. If you combined online readership with print readership the actual readership base of the newspaper is growing. Same can be said about many other newspapers and magazines.

Its also the reason that the likes of channel 4 now run E4, More 4, Film 4, Channel 4 films etc.
Channel 4 alone didn't cut it and was losing market share, but by creating new channels they were able to grow their base as a whole.

Its just business models changing. People still love music, and are still happy to pay for it. But they want it in different formats through dfferent means.
Artists and djs need to redefine what they do and figure out how they are going to get paid for it. Nowadays it seems you need a fair few strings to your bow to make a good living from music.

Its pretty harsh though. There seems to be a glut of money in music for a select few, and comparatively little for the rest.

[crime]

Its just business models changing. People still love music, and are still happy to pay for it. But they want it in different formats through dfferent means.
Artists and djs need to redefine what they do and figure out how they are going to get paid for it. Nowadays it seems you need a fair few strings to your bow to make a good living from music.

Its pretty harsh though. There seems to be a glut of money in music for a select few, and comparatively little for the rest.

this is pretty much bang on point..
The illegal download thing is not going to stop, you just have to work out ways around it, I personally make a lot more money out of performance than recordings, so this is what I'm trying to focus on more myself....

[oldbugger]

And in regard to the old chestnut "Djs earn in a night more than I earn all week", this is very easily said when you're sat in front of your computer bored at work, but stop to think for a minute for all the other weekends a DJ/Live act might not have a gig.. that might be their only gig of the month... which means that might just about only cover their rent for that month.. ...


totally understand..i'm self employed too and sometimes i dont know if i can cover my bills if i only have one job to do in a month.

get over it and go do something else if its a struggle, i'd do anything to earn money if i needed it. and i dont moan about it.

i get the impression that its not as tight as some like to make out though. :razz: :lol:

nobody is saying that its wrong to be pissed off some1 is stealing your work but at a guess i would say the promotion you get from illegal downloads more than likely does you more favours than harm (just a guess)

[fresh_an_funky_design]

i don`t see where`s the problem. so, someone ripped promos? ****.
now you will sell 1500 instead of 1800 records or whatever.

:nono: :bash:

[crime]

get over it and go do something else if its a struggle, i'd do anything to earn money if i needed it. and i dont moan about it.



well, sometimes you have to struggle to get where you want, I'm just trying to point out that just because a DJ is getting paid 500 quid on a weekend doesn't mean they are getting that every weekend, and that being a DJ/Performer/Producer isn't necessarily a busmans holiday contrary to what a lot of people might think....

[oldbugger]

get over it and go do something else if its a struggle, i'd do anything to earn money if i needed it. and i dont moan about it.



well, sometimes you have to struggle to get where you want, I'm just trying to point out that just because a DJ is getting paid 500 quid on a weekend doesn't mean they are getting that every weekend, and that being a DJ/Performer/Producer isn't necessarily a busmans holiday contrary to what a lot of people might think....

i know..but i sure beats what a lot of folf do ;) :lol:

[oldbugger]

the typos wre all done on purpose you know :blush:

i meant..it beats what a lot of people on here do ;)

[Francisco Scaramanga]

get over it and go do something else if its a struggle, i'd do anything to earn money if i needed it. and i dont moan about it.



well, sometimes you have to struggle to get where you want, I'm just trying to point out that just because a DJ is getting paid 500 quid on a weekend doesn't mean they are getting that every weekend, and that being a DJ/Performer/Producer isn't necessarily a busmans holiday contrary to what a lot of people might think....

Its obviously going to be hard work, I dont think anyone doubts that. Alot of people put in all that hard work though, just as a hobby, and have a job too. If you can get by without a job thats well cool. But if ever things slip and you are a bit short on cash, then I dont see how bitching about filesharing is going to help things. Alot of people have given the solution though, basically the times they are a changin and its time to adapt to the digital age. If people cant be bothered with the change, then get a haircut and get a real job.

I really want to know, who on here can honestly say they've never downloaded something illegally? I'm not talking techno, I'm talking music of any kind, tv shows, movies, cracked software, and of course porn.

All that other stuff is still just the same as music, it might not affect us cause we arent in the film business, but the fact that you can download whole films, or buy pirate dvds at the market or whatever, that is damaging the DVD business way more than soulseek is damaging techno. And its not just hollywood execs that are getting done by that, the whole industry is affected by the dramatic loss of sales, so it affects people all the way down to the person who sells you a DVD in whatever shop you are in or the guy who drives the van that delivers DVDs to the store. Of course the DVD business has responded by bigging up the idea of renting them over the internet, and having them delivered by post. So people in techno need to do the same, find a way to make the internet work as a way to distribute music - at a profit.

I do use filesharing, but I dont consider myself a theif in the slightest. I barely download any techno at all, except for the odd mix that is of interest. I do download all sorts of other music though, just to check things out, see what someone is like. I particlarly like my classic rock and download a lot of that. But most of it gets deleted after like one or two plays, and the stuff that I like enough to let it clog my drive, I go out and buy the album, cause I like to have the real thing. Its just like when I was a kid and taped my favourite radio shows. When I got bored of a particular one I would just tape over it with a new one, but there would ususally be a few tracks that would stand out and then I would save my lunch money to go and buy the single or whatever.

[Lag]

did any of you ever download a dj set? do you realise it is as illegal as downloading tracks? how about warez?
did any of you ever let their mixes go online for other people to download them, without paying royalties to producers in your mix? do you realise how illegal is that?

yes downloading sets is illegal, but i honestly feel it helps the scene alot.
its good promotion for the dj/artist, plus it helps to sell records, how many mixes have we all listened to and thought, ooh, whats that tune ?
then we go out and buy it
acutally what happenes is people hear good stuff, then dl it off of internet and then get bored by the song (possibly a big hit)
and when u play it u get opposite reactions of those expected

ofcourse we cant generalise like that but the point is there are more aspect of that matter.....


@topic i dl shit off the internet the whole time but whatever i like and think of playing it i try and get it on vinyl
i know dling it makes me a bad person but what can i do about it... i enjoy a good tune more then sex :eyes:

[Stodgy]

It must really suck to find your stuff getting shared out on the net before its even released. I would definately be pissed off too. But I think people go a bit overboard with it all. As has already been said, nothing can be done about it.

I really have to echo what oldbugger is on about as well. I really really dont mean any disrespect here at all - but - there are a lot of us in this scene who dont make a living from techno. I work all week in a job that I hate, but I still find time to make tunes and promote nights as well. I never expect anything back from any of that really, thats what the day job is for, all the music stuff I do is cause thats what I enjoy doing with my spare time, and thats how I choose to spend my hard earned cash.

I have many times payed a DJ more for an hour and a half of playing records than I earn in an entire MONTH. So when I hear people moaning about illegal downloads, I feel sorry to a point, but then I think, well at least you arent slaving in a shop serving the cunting public all day for barely over minimum wage.

Seriously - those of you who make a living from this thing we call techno, even if you make what you consider to be a shit living from it, I bet you make a whole shitload more than I do, whether your tunes are getting downloaded illegally or not. Doesent make illegal downloading ok, but how could anyone seriously think that filesharing could destroy underground music?

I would like to echo everything that has been said here, and also add that life is based on choices and most of us on here are lucky enough to live in a country that allows us to choose how we earn a living. So if someone is seriously unhappy with aspects of their career they should really try and find a way of earning that makes them happy.
Alternatively they can accept the drawbacks, bite their lip and get on with it like everyone else!!

[webassassin]

and in regard to mix tapes/Cds, I would say this market has been affected 10 times more by Mp3 downloads, and the reason you don't see so many mix or Live cds, or CD album releases is because it's not so viable in the current climate when it's going to end up on soulseek straight away anyway.. This is why only really big artists are releasing Mix comps, as they're going to have to sell a fair few to cover the licencing costs to all the labels that have trax on the mix.. Still feel ok about downloading sets off SS?

What about sets that are not previously available on CD and its just a promoter/punter who recorded it from a event? I've only downloaded sets for which there is no retail copy of and they're found mostly from this website.



Vinyl sales have decreased for a number of reasons in my opinion, Mp3 downloads have had an effect for sure, but there are other considerations that have to be made, there are many more people having a crack at producing and running the labels, and techno is no-where near as popular as it was 10 years ago, and this is a reality that has to be faced, no matter how much faith you have in the scene.. And legal action is not an option, there is simply not enough money in this scene to make it viable, Lawyers and going to court costs money, probably a damnsite more money that you are going to be awarded if you did win a case....

Yeah, way more people are producing therefore they're busy buying gear and computers, which effects their budget for buying records, and going out to events, etc. Its actually frivolous to think of involving the law in this case.


And in regard to the old chestnut "Djs earn in a night more than I earn all week", this is very easily said when you're sat in front of your computer bored at work, but stop to think for a minute for all the other weekends a DJ/Live act might not have a gig.. that might be their only gig of the month... which means that might just about only cover their rent for that month.. Because I'll tell you now from personal experience, there are very, very few artists that are booked every night, every weekend, and the ones that are probably don't even stop to think about Mp3 downloads as they are most probably earning enough for it not to bother them too much..This is what makes the difference between selling 1000 records and selling 1200, those 200 records could well be the profit that you are going to miss out on...

Excellent point, I know one artist who you'd think would be getting gigs because he's seems to be pretty hot right now but even he's told me that he may have to get a part time job to pay the bills. (Chalk it up to promoters acting funny with the bookings, making empty promises and p & d's going bad or none at all.) And really, why should he? He put his whole body into make this his career, do or die but reality is a b*tch. Same with another artist whom I've literally seen the number of gigs dwindled to zilch this past 7 years and now has to work full time after being able to support himself through this for almost 15 years; just basically having to start all over. Yeah I know, who wants to hear a sob story, "Boo-hoo" but its f'ed up nonetheless.


And anyone out there who thinks it's their idea of a "Dream job" really has no idea what it entails to live this thing 24/7, and whilst for myself, I would never moan about it, (and count my blessings I don't work a shitty factory job) I would love to see them live their life as a touring Producer/DJ and then come back to me and say the same thing, being away from friends and family, having times when you don't know how you will pay your rent next month, having to travel long distances whilst REALLY tired, not being able to do what YOU want on a weekend, can really be a drag sometimes, and it's only pure love for the music and being lucky enough to do what you do that gets you through it, it ain't all living it up, private jets, fast cars and fast women, I can tell you that now.....

Amen. OR have your luggage temporarily lost, or crazy sh*t happening to the promoter and you don't get paid...there's horror stories. You might be in some exotic locale but the gig may not turn out right. But when its good its quite rewarding when you work hard, like any other job.


Anyway, Henry, sorry to hear someone pushed this under your nose so much, I had a similar experience once in Leipzig when someone showed me a white label they had pressed themselves of a very rare record of mine, although I was kind of impressed at the dedication that had driven someone to do that, and the original was nigh on impossible to get hold of.... Wow. And plus you didn't have to pay for the pressing of it. It may help keep your name out there. Should've hit them up for pressing your new stuff. JK. ;)

[crime]

If you can get by without a job thats well cool. But if ever things slip and you are a bit short on cash, then I dont see how bitching about filesharing is going to help things.

Well, quite, you either have to cut your overheads, or find other sources of income, and yes, bitching about file-sharing doesn't change anything, you know, it doesn't matter how many threads on however many forums there are, it's not going to stop, and that is just a fact of life. I can however understand Henry's initial exclamation here though to an extent, it's like pissing on your chips then making you eat them..
I personally cut my overheads by moving to a place where the cost of living was cheaper and most of my gigs were, and basically tried to get as much work performing as possible, but there is only so long you can go on doing it, as it starts to kill you in the end, and this is why you find a lot of acts who don't drink, play their gig and go straight back to the hotel, as it really takes it's toll doing 2 gigs every weekend of a month.. I'm thinking now about what other angles I could go for work wise in the end as I don't want to gig forever, and doing it all the time means that is some ways you can lose the love you had for the whole thing, and in many ways, I look forward to the day when I have a job that I enjoy as much as I have this over the years, and get a lot more love and appreciation back from doing musically related activities, that's one thing that sucks, when your job becomes your hobby, what do you do for a hobby?
I might like to add also that you have to bear in mind before a lot of people started gigging, getting releases etc., this was after doing 5 or 10 years slogging it out whilst doing a shit job, but the points here about having to supplement your income are very true, it's not like 10 years ago where you were selling 3000 + units, and getting four figure sums for gigs. You either have to be gigging one hell of a lot or really on top of the game, or do something else.. I mean I know a lot of people who do sound design (Like Jingles for TV & Radio) or rent out their studios, or have some other kind of job either music or non music related, it's tough out there..

sorry if this rambled on a bit, but just clearing out a few thoughts that have been going round in my head for a while.. ;)

[crime]

What about sets that are not previously available on CD and its just a promoter/punter who recorded it from a event? I've only downloaded sets for which there is no retail copy of and they're found mostly from this website.



well, this is just a result of the marketplace changing, before peer2peer it wasn't so easy to get hold of sets, you know, you had to know the promotor af a club or whatever, but I feel it's a bit of a shame that as a DJ or Live act it's much harder to sell something like that than it was, but there is nothing I can do to change it. I mean, there's the point that with CD duplication in small runs being relatively cheap it's still posssible to sell something like that if you have a nice package there with a nice printed cover, maybe some AVI video extras , but only on stuff you own the copyright on yourself i.e. a dj mix of your own productions, or a liveact, unless you have the backing of a bigger label with enough money and promo power to sell it in large quantities. this is why you see mix after mix by people like Väth or Leibing as proper cd releases and nothing like that by say Jerome Hill....

[crime]

BTW: if I looked like I contradicted myself there before regarding DJ mixes being downloaded, I didn't mean to, after some thought here, my point is basically: I don't think it's really any better or worse to be downloading mixes as appose to tracks as illegal MP3s but this is the way the world has changed, and as far as the law stands it's still illegal reproduction, but it's that whole Promotion vs loss of sales thing, which I really don't have the answers to and wouldn't claim to...
I will say living for over a year in Berlin has made me more easy come easy go, and ass a result a lot less heated and opinionated especially in regard to mp3s and the morals of it, whether it is doing me out of pocket, as I can have a meal in a restaraunt here for less than a fiver :cheese: so that given it certainly makes you more chilled out where money is concerned...

[crime]

I've worked it out!!! It's thie internet, that's the problem, everyone turn off your computers now, it's making everything suck, turn it off and cancell your internet subscription, it's turning the creative world into a pile of "Grey Goo" :cheese::cheese:

[koma]

if we are going so in-depth about what more or less legal.....

how many promoters and dj's are not paying taxes for the money they earn? club owners are giving away money when they do parties, how do they justify those expenses in the books?
afaik, there is only cash money going around.
so, if the scene wants protection from the state, that same state could ask: what do I have from it?
hm, maybe these questions are sorted in UK, sorry, I dont know, but here... not even slightly...

[oldbugger]

if we are going so in-depth about what more or less legal.....

how many promoters and dj's are not paying taxes for the money they earn? club owners are giving away money when they do parties, how do they justify those expenses in the books?
afaik, there is only cash money going around.
so, if the scene wants protection from the state, that same state could ask: what do I have from it?
hm, maybe these questions are sorted in UK, sorry, I dont know, but here... not even slightly...

spot on mate.. of course a lot of any dj's work even in the uk is cash.

i reckon they are just a moaning bunch of pussies myself who havent got a good days work in them :lol:

[crime]

spot on mate.. of course a lot of any dj's work even in the uk is cash.

i reckon they are just a moaning bunch of pussies myself who havent got a good days work in them :lol:

Damn, we've been finally found out :blush:

[webassassin]

What about sets that are not previously available on CD and its just a promoter/punter who recorded it from a event? I've only downloaded sets for which there is no retail copy of and they're found mostly from this website.



well, this is just a result of the marketplace changing, before peer2peer it wasn't so easy to get hold of sets, you know, you had to know the promotor af a club or whatever, but I feel it's a bit of a shame that as a DJ or Live act it's much harder to sell something like that than it was, but there is nothing I can do to change it. I mean, there's the point that with CD duplication in small runs being relatively cheap it's still posssible to sell something like that if you have a nice package there with a nice printed cover, maybe some AVI video extras , but only on stuff you own the copyright on yourself i.e. a dj mix of your own productions, or a liveact, unless you have the backing of a bigger label with enough money and promo power to sell it in large quantities. this is why you see mix after mix by people like Väth or Leibing as proper cd releases and nothing like that by say Jerome Hill....

I hear ya. I think more djs/live pa's should do that. In fact, my big thing is radio shows on mp3 which I think people should pay close attention to. They play snippets of stuff and tell you what it is, all edited into one fun, but professional show and it gets you in the mood for heading to the store. Now, I'm not recommending that everyone and their grandmother should do a radio show. Moderation, can go a long way, folks. But the radio shows that are already around now, like Split and the Black Audio ones are very important. They filter out alot of bad stuff and I think electronic music needs that big time.

Cheers.

[dirty_bass]

You pay for your food.
You pay to go to the cinema, to get into clubs, for your beer, for your clothes etc
simple
pay for the music you listen to and enjoy

[fresh_an_funky_design]

You pay for your food.
You pay to go to the cinema, to get into clubs, for your beer, for your clothes etc
simple
pay for the music you listen to and enjoy


couldn't agree with you more


support undergound artists!

[massplanck]

[


support undergound artists!

Thats what the dole is for.

[fresh_an_funky_design]

[


support undergound artists!

Thats what the dole is for.




:coffee:

[Mindful]

[


support undergound artists!

Thats what the dole is for.

Hahahahahahahaha

[eyeswithoutaface]

[


support undergound artists!

Thats what the dole is for.

hahaha classic :lol:

[djshiva]

me personally, i refuse to sit back and start talking about the legality of downloading, because we have all seen what happens when people like the RIAA get involved. they start prosecuting kids and taking money from the little people (which we all are compared to that kind of power). i can see the problems involved for working artists, and i have seen my own sets and tracks on sites like slsk, but to say that i would like to see people run through the legal system because of it? well, you are never gonna see me say that.

downloading will continue (at least until the huge telecom companies start making us pay for EVERYTHING we access on the net), and we either evolve or die. i would rather get creative and find new ways of marketing my music and my djing, than say that i want to see the authorities busting down doors and taking harddrives.

i mean really. i DO see the validity of dave and others' frustrations, but the alternatives are even more disgusting to me.

[djshiva]

oh. and you will never get the slightest sympathy from me about the "trials and tribulations" of being a travelling, gigging musician. sure there are parts of it that suck: missing flights, missing luggage, sleep deprivation, hotel issues, being away from loved ones, sore back from running through the airport with your record bag, missing your cat, etc. been through it myself. but if it's not fun anymore...don't do it. there are a gerbajillion people on this planet that would give their right arm to be in the position to take the bad with the good without a gripe. it's not a factory job, for pete's sake. so don't expect much sympathy on that one. it just does not fly.

****, if you gave that sob story to some of the cats i know in touring bands, they would laugh their asses off. most people in bands tour in shitty vans, all stuck in the van for hours at a time IF the van doesn't break down, only to play the gig and either end up ripped off, or with just enough to buy lunch for each band member (in fact, if my old band made enough to put gas in our vehicles, we were pretty happy). when a friend in a touring band asked me a few years ago how much i made for dj gigs (which at the time was a lot more than i get now), i was actually EMBARRASSED to tell him, cuz i knew that most of the time his WHOLE BAND made less than that for a gig.

and if anyone here got into techno with the aims of making a living off it...i have news for you: you were misled. the odds of being able to do that are small and the market fluctuates. that's the way things work, and if you are not prepared for that reality, then you should do something else. i have a job i love with a non-profit, and while it would be lovely to make a living off music, i am not gonna slit my wrists if it never happens. the majority of people making music will never make a living off it, never be well known and are mostly just happy that they have something they love to keep em busy.

it all comes down to priorities and an understanding of reality, i guess. not trying to be an ass with this post, but it needs to be said.

[The Divide]

I use warezed software to make music (I'm coming clean), I do it for the love of it therefore I wont be loosing any sleep if anyone downloads my music. I’m in this game of the love of it and people hearing my music (and liking it lol) matters more. I totally disagree with those who believe the internet, the mp3s or anything else has stopped people from going out, caused clubs to close, the end of the word, etc, etc.

To be honest I think dj's who charge beyond £2,000 for a couple of hours on the decks are the real scene rapists, well more than some kids who file share.

*disappears to avoid angry mob*

P.S if I think some music is worth buying, I buy it. Same goes for software, I do plan on buy lots of the NI range when I am working full time

Im also a registered cubase user, paid 300 for v3.2 when I was 18. To have it updated to the current version would probably cost something around £200 hence why I have NO plans on buying SX

So sue me

[djshiva]

To be honest I think dj's who charge beyond £2,000 for a couple of hours on the decks are the real scene rapists, well more than some kids who file share.

*disappears to avoid angry mob*


:clap:

agree wholeheartedly.

and what kills me is that when the economy has gone south, there are still djs charging what they did a few years ago when things were hopping. THAT is really missing the boat.

here in the states, especially in the midwest, there is just NOT that kind of money to give to the djs, because there is not that big an audience. the hardcore people will come out for a good dj, but they still don't have the kind of money it takes to pay someone those kind of fees. and so many djs price themselves out of a good time because they are unwilling to budge on their fees. are you in it for the money or are you in it to make/play music and have a good time?

i always had a sliding fee scale. the less money people charged at the door, the less i charged. to me, that was a way to keep door prices low for the audiences.

me personally, i think the money mixed up with the music is what's killing everything. there's a topic for ya...discuss amongst yourselves. ;)

[dirty_bass]

I think the ridiculous fees some DJ`s charge is a whole other subject.
But in my opinion, it`s not helping the scene.
And things are finally small enough for it to be a scene again.

[The Divide]

Sounds good to me

:dance:

Fair play if people wanna earn cash I don’t hold a grudge, but some people really take the piss

I actually do buy music, occasionally. Not much techno tho, I dont dj so I have no use for the singles or ep's. I do sometimes buy compilation CD's and occasionally I will buy the odd mp3 off beatport (what a site that is) out of respect for the tune. More oftern than not Im listening to MP3 dj mixes.

[Miromiric]

fernando for president.

[Barely Human]

****ing spot on dan.

[crime]

Well, at the end of the day, people are worth what promoters are willing to pay, and whilst not wanting to ruffle feathers here, complaining about how much certain djs get paid to me just stinks of bitterness, because I'm sure anyone here who was offered that kind of money, I'm sure they wouldn't turn it down.... (I don't get anywhere near that kind of money for a show BTW)
And @ Shiva: with the greatest respect, in regard to having no sympathy to the fact it is very tireing work to be playing every weekend, I'm sure you would see things differently if you lived that life for a few years.. it's very facile to just say "well if you don't like it, do something different", but if that's all you've ever done in your life since being 16 years old, and have no qualifications really to get another job, what are you going to do? I get mentally deranged sometimes from playing 2 nights a weekend for a month, travelling a lot, having bullshit from promoters trying to rip you off, dealing with the whole business side of things, not that I'm complaining because I made my bed, I'll lie in it, but it's difficult for me to "Just do something else", especially when you have already become established somewhat on the gigging scene..
It's also important to remember that the scene is different on mainland Europe to the US or even UK, where there IS the money to pay djs that kind of amount.. Big name DJs set their price, what a night's work is worth to them, and promoters pay it, if they didn't they wouldn't get so much, simple as.. so I don't really see how it's "Killing the scene", a lot of the time these big names do attract a lot of people to events, and if the DJs wern't taking these fees, it would just translate as more profits for the promotors... which they probably wouldn't have if they didn't have the big namess drawing a lot of people to their events... it isn't just parties attracting 50 or so people to clubs these days worldwide, in Holland for example there are parties attracting 5000+people, so I would say techno is hardly dead there...

[crime]

@ Shiva: You are right though in the sense of trying to charge the fee you would normally charge for a 1000 cap. club isn't going to work, but for a lot of DJs/acts, they have probably done their time playing small clubs years ago, and feel it's not worth their while doing it, maybe because they already did 5 gigs that month, and the travelling is too much in relation to the money, also the way gigging a lot eats into time in the studio... because I know from experience after a 6 gig month you don't want to be hearing any loud music...
as I say, people are worth what promoters are prepared to pay....

[module]

i'm sorry but..

how many times have u stolen the loops or samples for your trax & not payed up DAVE ??? did u pay for all those Bananarama snippets ???


sorry, this jus smacks of hipocrocy & bitterness.

[Miromiric]

;)

[Miromiric]

;)

[module]

truth is, ive heard from quite a number of established djs that there is noi money in vinyl releases anymore. they jus keep the dj/live shows coming in which is where real money is.

and ya know what ? i have NEVER playeda d'loaded tune & got payed for it.

every tune i played, i either bought or borrowed ot wrote myself. d'load quality is shite ;)

[crime]

i have a job i love with a non-profit, and while it would be lovely to make a living off music, i am not gonna slit my wrists if it never happens.

If you are happy with your job, seriously, count yourself lucky... because when music becomes too much like a job, it can really suck sometimes.... in many ways, I would much prefer to have a job I like and do the music for fun, but you know how you just kind of "fall into" these things sometimes.... :)

[mikehumphries]

welcome to the real world dave the drummer. where have you been for the last few years?
its not the only reason that vinyl sales have dropped off in recent years (ask the guys who run the shops where you buy your tunes about the numbers they sell these days), but it is a contributing factor.

i dont think many people realise how much (or little) money the artists make from the tunes that you buy in the shops
lets keep it simple here (to the nearest 50p) for those who dont know.
lets say you see a record in a shop and it cost around £7
that shop has bought it from a distributor for about £3.50
that distibutor has bought it from the label for £2
that label has also had to manufacture their product for about £1
so the label makes about £1 for each record sold
most labels do a 50% of profit deal with the artist
so the label and the artist will receive about 50p each for every unit sold.
vinyl does not do big numbers these days.(right across the board, techno, house, drum and bass etc) the sale are down by up to seventy percent.
in the good old days, the average label would do abouut 1000 copies of each release, so it has never really been a champagne and cocain life style for most of the underground artists. do the maths yourselves.
they are doing it because it is what they do and love, and when people do download their shit for free, they are really just making it even more difficult for that artist or label to come back with their next release.
maybe one day underground artists will be selling directly to their fans via digital d/ls from their sites and they will cut out all the middle men, provideing cheaper music for the fans who dig them and still be able to supply them with the tunes they dig.
anyway dave i think i've left the hoover on and my dealer should be here soon. hope this puts things into perspective for you download boys who never really gave it a second thought. if you wanna see another release from you favourite artist or label, maybe you should give them a bit more support. peace on earth

[TechMouse]

sorry to come up so angry about this earlier
but it really did my head in
and to top it off i was with a guy who had downloaded my trax
in spain this weekend, and he didn't seem to think it was wrong.
i really couldn't get into it with him
as he was playing for the guys i was working for and it would've got heated if i had.
the guy did apologise in the end after i kind of gave him a
" you are stealing my music " kind of look.
and he turned out to be nice enough
but the point is
how many other guys are doing it?
especially in countries where vinyl is dissapearing
and what can be done about it ?
I understand this is a massive problem in Spain.

I was talking to Tom from The Autobots, and apparently Breaks is really huge in Spain but they hardly get any vinyl there, so they tend to download a lot.

Even worse: You get people downloading DJ mixes, cutting out the track they like, re-editing an intro and outro and then burning it to a CD.

It's awful.

You can't knock the technology though, it's the cretins that abuse it.

I use P2P stuff / BitTorrent etc. for lots of perfectly legal things. Like downloading source code, sharing my music with others.

[module]

its all about the money innit ?

sad

[el salvador]

i guess people have to pay their bills and buy food and other things to that are essential in life. i did not realise before how little money that the guys who make this music are really making. i have did the math from the post above it it does appear that these guys are making the music because they love it. it must be so hard . respect to all of you music makers. i have thought before that you all have a lifestyle like the rockstars :blush: good luck to you all and keeps those tunes coming please. it is lighting up my student world :clap:

[crime]

so the label and the artist will receive about 50p each for every unit sold.

it's worth adding also that for a record to go into profit it really has to sell at least 5-600 copies.. so if it doesn't sell more than that neither label nor artist will get anything...

[TechMouse]

Just out of interest...

A record costs £7, and the record shop buys it from the distributor for £3.50?

Then why don't labels sell the records over the web for much less money?

I'm sure there's a perfectly good reason... but please do enlighten me.

[crime]

Just out of interest...

A record costs £7, and the record shop buys it from the distributor for £3.50?

Then why don't labels sell the records over the web for much less money?

I'm sure there's a perfectly good reason... but please do enlighten me.

If you want to buy records, what would you rather do, go to one place and buy all the records you want and pay postage and packing once or trawl around every record label's website to buy every record you want and have to pay postage on every single one? I know what the majority of people do (go to the shop or online store), and this is why you don't really get that happening so much... AND whilst it may look like record shops get one hell of a markup you have to also take into account the overheads they have e.g. cost of renting premisis and paying staff's wages.. record shops are also struggling to survive even when it can look like they have seemingly high profit margins....

[dirty_bass]

Just out of interest...

A record costs £7, and the record shop buys it from the distributor for £3.50?

Then why don't labels sell the records over the web for much less money?

I'm sure there's a perfectly good reason... but please do enlighten me.

If you want to buy records, what would you rather do, go to one place and buy all the records you want and pay postage and packing once or trawl around every record label's website to buy every record you want and have to pay postage on every single one? I know what the majority of people do (go to the shop or online store), and this is why you don't really get that happening so much... AND whilst it may look like record shops get one hell of a markup you have to also take into account the overheads they have e.g. cost of renting premisis and paying staff's wages.. record shops are also struggling to survive even when it can look like they have seemingly high profit margins....

True, we`ve lost a hell of a lot of record shops in the UK this last year.
I just heard that Massive in oxford has now gone.

[TechMouse]

True, we`ve lost a hell of a lot of record shops in the UK this last year.
I just heard that Massive in oxford has now gone.
No!

Does that include the one in Birmingham?

I went there once a year or two ago, and it was one of the most pleasant record-buying experiences I've ever had. The guy was falling over himself to be helpful, and clearly really loved the music - knew his way round all the records, and was looking at what I'd picked out and suggesting other stuff. Very cool.

Kept meaning to go back and never did.

[mr burns]

yeah they have both gone bust, i thought it was a sucessful shop aswell, it was a big suprise when i heard this,

[SlavikSvensk]

many of the actual brick-and-mortar stores that remain (anywhere, really) are sad versions of their former selves as well...

[crime]

Hardwax and Friezeitglauben are definite exceptions to the rule here in Berlin, along with Syntax in Leipzig... it's not all doom and gloom...

[SlavikSvensk]

yeah, true, but a lot of my favorites in europe and the us are either gone or decimated...

[tOM B]

I use warezed software to make music (I'm coming clean)

I see cracked software a bit differently, i assume software companies have more money than most producers

As for high dj fees, as a promoter if we can't afford them i won't book them. Unfortunately if we don't have a low door price people will turn around and walk away and we use a low capacity club (300)

Any profit we make pays for the nights we lose money if there's any left it pays generator fees for parties in the summer (when the club is shut)

On rare occassions we have to put our hands in our pockets to help pay for events and after all the work and effort we put in this can be a bit heartbreaking (especially when you get people wingeing at you on the door about the price) i guess it's the same when people download your tunes for nowt :(

[SlavikSvensk]

I use warezed software to make music (I'm coming clean)


in some cases software is made by megacorporations, but in others it's done by small developers who make their enture living off of a handful of sales.

i'm not coming down on this as implacably opposed to all use of warez, but it's wrong to assume all software comes from big business...

[djshiva]

@ crime: i really do see the down sides of gigging. i may not gig as much as some, but boy do i have some horror stories myself.

i made a promise to myself a long time ago that if it was ever not fun anymore that i would walk away. that's me though. i think you can see my point that there are far worse things in the world one can do for money. really, it's a matter of perspective. and luckily for me i have other passions that keep me fairly balanced (hell, hours and hours on a plane just means more reading time to me...). :)

[tOM B]

I use warezed software to make music (I'm coming clean)


in some cases software is made by megacorporations, but in others it's done by small developers who make their enture living off of a handful of sales.

i'm not coming down on this as implacably opposed to all use of warez, but it's wrong to assume all software comes from big business...

in that case rip it off from the mega corps and buy it from the small folks

[crime]

i think you can see my point that there are far worse things in the world one can do for money.

Oh god yeah, i'm certainly glad I don't have to work shitty factory or call centre jobs anymore, and am more than happy that I had the oppotunity to leave the country where I was born and experience living in a different country with a different language, just as Mike Humphries said, it's not the "Champange and Cocaine" lifestyle that some people really seem to believe...
And you are right, if you are not enjoying it, you should get out, but that is not to say, even when you are enjoying it, you have a few shitty gigs and stressfull travelling experiences it can really put you offf for a while no matter how much your heart is into it.... I generally find though as much as I can bitch when I'm touring a lot, take a month off, and your raring to get back on the road... Off to Poland next week for 2 shows after a month off, so I'm raring to go right now ;)

[eyeswithoutaface]

i think quite simply if your naive enough to think your going to get into the scene for the money and charly, then you probably dont deserve to be getting your stuff out ahead of the genuine people anyway....

quite simply put, illegal downloads do take away from the labels and artists, but if anyone is solely relying on music, especially techno right now, as their only source of income, and actually moaning when they arent making as much as they should be, wether this is justified or not i.e illegal download of upcoming ep's etc etc, then they need to open their blinkers a little and maybe join the real world again, GET A PROPER JOB TOO! There must be a shed load of outlets and opportunities for someone with a good experience of music production and would only take a good bit of digging around to find something suitable.

Dont put all your egg's in one basket

[oldbugger]

i think quite simply if your naive enough to think your going to get into the scene for the money and charly, then you probably dont deserve to be getting your stuff out ahead of the genuine people anyway....

quite simply put, illegal downloads do take away from the labels and artists, but if anyone is solely relying on music, especially techno right now, as their only source of income, and actually moaning when they arent making as much as they should be, wether this is justified or not i.e illegal download of upcoming ep's etc etc, then they need to open their blinkers a little and maybe join the real world again, GET A PROPER JOB TOO! There must be a shed load of outlets and opportunities for someone with a good experience of music production and would only take a good bit of digging around to find something suitable.

Dont put all your egg's in one basket

or just dont pretend your not doing as well :lol:
obviously a techno thing :razz:

[dirty_bass]

Not everyone wants to work a sucky job, to be good at music, you need to have the time to commit to it.

I`m ok, I`m lucky to have found a job that allows me the hours I want, for good money, but it took ages to get something like that.

All these arguments are moot. The point is, it`s all just an attempt to justify theft. If you pay for ohter forms of entertainment, why should music not be paid for too.

[module]

Not everyone wants to work a sucky job, to be good at music, you need to have the time to commit to it.

I`m ok, I`m lucky to have found a job that allows me the hours I want, for good money, but it took ages to get something like that.

All these arguments are moot. The point is, it`s all just an attempt to justify theft. If you pay for ohter forms of entertainment, why should music not be paid for too.


bals db. henry is pissed at him having his music stile, yet how many ilegally used samples has he made money off during the years ? did he clear & pay rotalties for all of them ? i think not

and hes far from the only one.. not by a long shot. especially round here...

Crime, did you clear the Streethawk samples ?

[eyeswithoutaface]

well, i dont think ANYONE wants to work a sucky job, ive yet to come across anyone who really WANTS to work in a crummy shop like myself, it's a case of having too, and not being bitter about it, as that will only further antagonise yourself and ultimately end up getting yourself down, depressed, anxious for something else to be happening etc etc

i agree to having to have time to commit to music, that's soley why i went to a part time job last year. But of course as EVERYONE knows, living isnt free, and its about finding a balance. No one's denying that music shouldnt be paid for, i certainly am not i agree 100% that music is like any other product for sale, it should be legally purchased. I dont think anyone is trying to justify theft, any comments that do indicate that in this thread are clearly tongue in cheek, well certainly some are without having to point them out.

I'l never be without a normal job and i genuinely think that anyone who does exist within the scene who had any sense about them would have a regular job or a pretty solid sideline i.e decent temp work when they want it, as you never know whats around the next corner. Either that or ensure your dj/live schedule is seriously, solidly booked up, but of course even then that's not guarenteed until you've done the gig and the money is in your hand

[Jay Pace]

bals db. henry is pissed at him having his music stile, yet how many ilegally used samples has he made money off during the years ? did he clear & pay rotalties for all of them ? i think not

and hes far from the only one.. not by a long shot. especially round here...

Crime, did you clear the Streethawk samples ?

Look....

A lot of the time you don't even need clearance. Go bump up on copyright law. Snippits and clips are invariably exempt.

Can't be arsed to find the section - go do your own research if you are so keen to sling mud.

Henry is quite rightly pissed off that people are stealing his music before he has even had the chance to sell it.

The two cases are incomparable

Stop being an arse.

[SlavikSvensk]

i feel like we've had this conversation before...say maybe 8 or 9 times in the past couple years...?

[eyeswithoutaface]

yeah, i had a certain sense of deja-vu myself

[tOM B]

If you pay for ohter forms of entertainment, why should music not be paid for too.

i think that's the critical point ;)

[module]

bals db. henry is pissed at him having his music stile, yet how many ilegally used samples has he made money off during the years ? did he clear & pay rotalties for all of them ? i think not

and hes far from the only one.. not by a long shot. especially round here...

Crime, did you clear the Streethawk samples ?

Look....

A lot of the time you don't even need clearance. Go bump up on copyright law. Snippits and clips are invariably exempt.

Can't be arsed to find the section - go do your own research if you are so keen to sling mud.

Henry is quite rightly pissed off that people are stealing his music before he has even had the chance to sell it.

The two cases are incomparable

Stop being an arse.



i dont think they are. hes talking about stolen music.

look, for the hell of it, lets jus agree to disagree, cos i aint backing down.

[Francisco Scaramanga]

Its not an attempt to justify theft at all, not from me anyway. From the outset I said it must suck, and I said that I would be pissed off too. I also said no disrespect intended, and I meant that.

But I also meant it when I said (more or less) get over it. We've all heard about this crap so many times now.

One thing I've noticed though, is that this thread runs in cycles (just with new names), but every time the subject of tinternet and downloading comes up, I'm noticing more and more positive ideas and stories relating to the use of the internet for furthering rather than hindering people in our scene. There are always new sites mentioned that are selling mp3s, or new ideas about how to stay in the game. Crime has come out with alot of interesting information this time around if you ask me. Thing is, alot of it would be common sense to business types - cut overhead and costs, stay close to the source of business, concentrate on the main breadwinner. Still, it helps to hear these things sometimes, especially as musicians very very notoriously are bad at business and usually die penniless - even the very very famous ones - am I the only person here who realises this? Anyway, its always amusing, and I think eventually, through mashing it out like this, we will sort it all out one day (but what will come along and destroy music then?).

And as for people paying for other forms of entertainment - do they really, all the time? You sure people dont just sometimes go to the library and check a book out - for free! Are you telling me you've never watched a pirate DVD? What about borrowing a CD/DVD/video game off a friend, you're listening/watching/playing but not paying! And everyone must have copied a tape or a CD at some point. And what about buying records second hand - the artist isn't getting any money from that, so thats well harsh isent it?

I'm not saying people should just borrow and copy all the time. I definately do not, I'll say it again, I AM NOT A THEIF. Come round to my house and check out my hundreds of CDs and DVDs and books and even a fair few records despite the fact I dont play records. If I bought every single tune I ever listened to, book I've read, film I've watched, and game I've played, I would have to be living in the millenium dome, just so I could store it all. I'm sure its the same for everyone else. I buy as much as I can, and anything that I borrow or check out from the library or hear on the radio - or download - and really like, I buy it, once again, Im sure just the same as most people on here.

[The Divide]

I’m hoping the internet is going to start reshaping techno so it not only sounds good out in a club, but is worth listening to at home.

Instead of panicking about record sales going bust why don’t we all just focus on the inevitable, that music is going to be distributed via the web either MP3 or CD. I think that people who believe their tunes aint selling because of file sharing are living in denial of the consumer & social changes facing music and media in general. Way I see it is like this, those who used to buy vinyl have moved on, have responsibilities in their lives and can’t afford to spend £50+ a week on vinyl. Like it or not, it seems that techno isn’t capturing the imagination of younger people so a decline is going to happen until it starts to change. To do that it needs to start thinking outside the box. If it doesn’t, the party scene will end up where it’s already going, zimmer frame central.

Embrace it or die imo

I could be wrong

[massplanck]

zimmer frame central.



:lol: :lol:

[djshiva]

And you are right, if you are not enjoying it, you should get out, but that is not to say, even when you are enjoying it, you have a few shitty gigs and stressfull travelling experiences it can really put you offf for a while no matter how much your heart is into it.... I generally find though as much as I can bitch when I'm touring a lot, take a month off, and your raring to get back on the road... Off to Poland next week for 2 shows after a month off, so I'm raring to go right now ;)

a funny story: a few years ago after a particularly stressful trip to a particularly disorganized event, i was about ready to throw it all in, at least insofar as really promoting myself as a dj and blah blah blah.

on the way home, once i got back into my city, i decided to stop at the video store to get a movie to relax with when i got home. my friend ran the video store, and i walked in to find two drum machines sitting on the chair near the counter (roland tr-505 and 727). i asked him what was up and he said a friend had brought them over cuz he found them in his closet. when the guy came back, i was so into them that he gave them to me. just gave em to me. those were my first drum machines, and i decided the techno gods were giving me a signal that i needed to stick around.

so i did. ;)

[dirty_bass]

bals db. henry is pissed at him having his music stile, yet how many ilegally used samples has he made money off during the years ? did he clear & pay rotalties for all of them ? i think not

and hes far from the only one.. not by a long shot. especially round here...

Crime, did you clear the Streethawk samples ?

Look....

A lot of the time you don't even need clearance. Go bump up on copyright law. Snippits and clips are invariably exempt.

Can't be arsed to find the section - go do your own research if you are so keen to sling mud.

Henry is quite rightly pissed off that people are stealing his music before he has even had the chance to sell it.

The two cases are incomparable

Stop being an arse.



i dont think they are. hes talking about stolen music.

look, for the hell of it, lets jus agree to disagree, cos i aint backing down.

Call that means I can release the Voidloss Remix/Rework of Pete Donadlsons WAR on the next Singularity Release, and I don`t have to pay him a penny, sweeeeeeet.

[crime]

Crime, did you clear the Streethawk samples ?

You tend to find that the people that own the copyright to these things arn't really bothered unless you're selling at least 5000 if not 10000 copies, I know of people who have got away with much worse...

This is the way that it works, it was never the case that we made loads of money BECAUSE the producer used samples from an old TV show, in fact it was the worst selling release on the label and we never re-couped the production costs, so obviously even if whoever owned the rights to the Streethawk had heard it, they wouldn't bother to sue as there would be no money there to take anyhow...

I'm in agreement that sample clearance is a different issue, even when a techno artist has ripped something totally, it's very very rare that they would make a pile of cash out of it...

@ Shiva: That's a cool tale, sometimes signs are sent in the strangest ways, I had one last friday when my homie Bill Youngman totally rocked the Raumklang here in Berlin at his Tresor record release party, you guys here should really pay attention to what he's doing, rocked my world & I was totally straight :)

[dirty_bass]

Sample clearance bascially only becomes a problem when the owner of the sample (inevitably a record company) thinks they can get some money or earn some money off of the user of the sample.
For the most part techno gets away with it, because the record companies know that they won`t get anything, either by suing or by relicensing the track with the sample in.

[crime]

Thing is, alot of it would be common sense to business types - cut overhead and costs, stay close to the source of business, concentrate on the main breadwinner. Still, it helps to hear these things sometimes, especially as musicians very very notoriously are bad at business and usually die penniless - even the very very famous ones - am I the only person here who realises this?

I realised a while back that it's something you can't stop, plus you got to be shrewd and realistic at the same time - in reality the people who are really into it will buy the records, it's always better to have a record than an mp3.. I think illegal mp3 downloads probably have more of an affect on Album sales rather than 12"s, so hasn't really affected me.. ok, it's theft, but what you going to do?
but yeah, I think we are going round in circles here, some people making music who are feeling the pinch are shouting "Theft", some people who DL music for free are pulling up issues about sample clearance...

Conclusion: it ain't going to go away, so you have to work around it....

[crime]

Sample clearance bascially only becomes a problem when the owner of the sample (inevitably a record company) thinks they can get some money or earn some money off of the user of the sample.
For the most part techno gets away with it, because the record companies know that they won`t get anything, either by suing or by relicensing the track with the sample in.

Exactly, bang on....

[TechMouse]

I see cracked software a bit differently, i assume software companies have more money than most producers
You might think that, but profit margins on small companies aren't that big. And lets face it, most companies that make music software are quite small. i.e. I'd guess 20 people or less.

Note that the only reason Emagic and Steinberg have survived is they have been bought out by Apple and Yamaha respectively.

Part of the reason for this is the high prices, which are a direct result of pirate software. If everyone bought it, the prices would come down.

[TechMouse]

Sample clearance bascially only becomes a problem when the owner of the sample (inevitably a record company) thinks they can get some money or earn some money off of the user of the sample.
For the most part techno gets away with it, because the record companies know that they won`t get anything, either by suing or by relicensing the track with the sample in.

Likewise, filesharing is only a problem when the owner of the tunes, yadda yadda yadda...

I see what you're saying DB, but the telling phrase that both you and Crime used here is "gets away with it"... you realise yourselves that it's wrong but you're saying since you can "get away with it" without being sued, then it's ok?

Well, here's a newsflash - millions of people are "getting away with" downloading mp3s illegally day in day out. Is that ok?

At the end of the day it's violation of copyright in both cases.

Just out of interest... do any of you producers expect non-DJs to splash out £7 on a vinyl because they like a certain tune?

[dirty_bass]

Well, it`s not that simple.
As the use of samples when recontextualied into a different tune is fine.
However the US legal system pushed changes to essentially get more money for the labels who were very powerful.
I have a mate who has just completed a PHD thesis all about this, called The Greater Wrong of the right.
And it`s all about the morality and grey areas of sample clearance, so to be honest I think the example you site is debatable, as recontextualisation and creativity is being used. Unless it`s a blatant rip.

It`s not really the same argument.

[The Overfiend]

Excellent Point Steve
Shahoul do the paper?

[TechMouse]

@DB: Oh don't get me wrong - I'm all for letting people sample whatever, it's all creative and (IMHO) it's obvious when someone's just ripping entire sections of someone else's work. I'm just pointing out that you yourself used the phrase "gets away with it", which implies you realise that it's not strictly speaking "right", to the letter of the law.

[ANDROID]

And its happening not the first time, all my releases were played and were on internet before they hit the stores.

HOW??? :mad:

[crime]

I see what you're saying DB, but the telling phrase that both you and Crime used here is "gets away with it"... you realise yourselves that it's wrong but you're saying since you can "get away with it" without being sued, then it's ok?

Well, here's a newsflash - millions of people are "getting away with" downloading mp3s illegally day in day out. Is that ok?

At the end of the day it's violation of copyright in both cases.



This is 2 different issues.. it's a completely different thing to use literally under a second of uncleared samples compared to having a harddrive full of unlicenced music... it's going to hurt a musician a lot more if you download an artist's complete back catalogue, compared to if you sample under a second of their work which you then use creatively...

Anyhow I reiterate, I'm really past caring about unlicenced mp3 downloads of my own work, it's going to happen, there's nothing I can do to stop it, welcome to the 21st century...

I'm not going to take the moral high ground and go around saying people are bang out of order for doing it, but on the other hand I accept that it is theft..

at the end of the day I find it very hard to believe anyone who is online these days is completely innocent, everyone must have downloaded an mp3 at some point... in the same way that everyone had copied tapes back in the day... Still innocent?

I'm sure everyone is guilty to a certain extent when you stop to think, and it does make me think, ok so those people moaning that they found all their music on soulseek, did you ever have an album on tape? that you taped off your mate? well, that's pretty much the same thing.. not wanting to rattle cages here, but just making the point that you can't have it both ways, you can't download an album or copy a cd off a mate on the one hand, then cry foul when you find all your own stuff on SS...

Again,
I think we're splitting hairs here and going round in circles.. there is nothing you can do to stop it... get over it... ;)

[mattboyslim]

had an argument on nuskoolbreaks with someone yday regarding this. this was coming from someone starting his own label, and he's saying he wouldn't mind people selling his tunes on, and keeping a copy for themselves! he also said he was thinking of going digital and ripping his entire collection and then selling it on.

like you say, the end of underground music. people don't seem to be able to look more than a week ahead these days

[Jay Pace]

I think new producers are going to have a very different attitude.

Its not the end of uderground music, its just the end of the way things were done.
Artists who have been selling vinyl through exclusive channels which had a monopoly on distribution are finding the change to digital distribution hard.
Some artists like crime are emracing it - after all, its here. Deal with it.

But the new-breed of producers who are just coming into there own now will have grown up with filesharing and regard it as natural. They will have different expectations from their music being released.

A lof of this is just the old way of doing things clashing with the new way of doing things. For the people just starting out - the new way is the only way that they've experienced.

I wish people would stop insisting that filesharing is sounding the bloody death knell for techno and underground music.
Its not going to happen.
So long as people love the music, love going out to it and people still love making it the scene will continue.

[crime]

Some artists like crime are emracing it - after all, its here. Deal with it.

I wouldn't say I was embacing it as such, just more accepting that this is the reality of the industry these days... as I said before, if you can do a cracking live act, this is something that can never be stolen, as you had to be there to experience it...

I think a lot of people have blamed the download thing for a fall in vinyl sales when the fact is it's just changing times, there is a lot more choice in media these days, I mean in general, you think of what kids spend their money on now, DVDs, Computer games etc. The whole thing, not just music, has diversified so much that other things are attracting peoples money giving them less disposable income for music.. And there's not as much interest in techno music as there was 10 years ago when it was a really new fresh thing..

Techno is getting on for being 20 years old, and whilst I think it will always maintain a certain amount of popularity, it isn't going to have the buzz of the original early nineties explosion when we all thought it was going to take over the world and change everything... It has had a big influence on pop music production, and music on TV, Computergames etc, but the point is, it's very easy to scapegoat illegal downloads as the problem, when the problem actually is we have more choice than ever, and the demographic is no bigger. Obviously everone is going to feel the pinch when the market becomes bigger and bigger but there is in general only the same amount of disposable income, it's going to end up spread more thinly... And when illegal downloads are so easily available, people are less likely to spend their money on music, so that they can buy that new X-Box game..

It's just the way it's gone now, and why I think Live performance as an artist is even more important than ever... this is something you can never fully capture down the DL pipe..

[Si the Sigh]

http://img384.imageshack.us/img384/5898/alive1le.jpg

Loads of the really big hardcore labels have got this printed on the labels. ^

[303808909]

Ok, so this may not be a direct OPINION to Henry's original topic and maybe more suited in a new thread but it has to be mentioned. UNFORTUNATELY this is just the tip of the iceberg. And deep down everyone on this debate, regardless of opinion, knows it, like it or not. Whether you benefit or loose out from filesharing and digital downloads, the fact of the matter is that its not going to go away. In fact its gonna get a whole lot more complicated. For starters, as technology improves, mp3's will be replaced with better quality and smaller files. In "X" amount of years the GENERAL populations need for "physical" formats will be obselete. We all love our music on here but you have to remember we are a tiny percentage of the global consumer market. Your AVERAGE person who pops into HMV to buy a CD once a month will not give a shit whether their music now comes in an invisible format. In fact, they'd probably want to rush out and buy the latest 10th Generation iPod to play it on and impress their mates and lo and behold, another convertee. Well, we dont need to look to the future to see this going on. How many pairs of white headphones do you see on the tube or trains and busses compared to just 1 year ago? Legal music or not playing through those headphones, its an invisible, digital format! Where will this leave the Underground artists, label owners, record companies and distributers? As Im writing this it makes me very anxious indeed. I don't like it, but what can WE do to adapt to it?

A French minister is under the spotlight at the moment for his comments on wanting to legalize flie sharing. http://www.fmqb.com/Article.asp?id=172512

IF this becomes legal, all the Soulseek, Limewire etc... servers will re-locate to France and trade legally! It probably won't happen but the fact that there is a proposal is scary enough. In the statement it mentions a flat, monthly subscription fee. Yes, a percentage of the cash will go to the artists (I hope) but you can guarantee it will be distributed amongst the Robbies and Kylies of the music scene and very little will get filtered down to the small fish. Even with a publisher/manager to collect this cash on your behalf, it will generate peanuts.
As things stand, SELLING mp3's online isn't proving very profitable for underground artists or labels (yet? - who knows!) Actually, nor is selling vinyl! (We are going round in a loop!) And its a bitter pill to swallow Im sure because its something that needs to be done to keep up with the market place more than something that is done through love. In fact, creating and maintaining digital catalogues takes up manpower and time. This dosen't come free.
And finally, Online digital sales opens up other questions for underground dance music. Would the mp3's be selling online if the original vinyl labels didn't exist? How quickly will we see the rise of "internet-only" artists? If the demand for digital sales makes it so that it would be a financial disaster to produce/sell vinyl anymore, what format will DJs choose to be the INDUSTRY STANDARD and could the artists survive on digital royalties? Could this create backlash to the club industry with all the djs trying to survive by means of a DJ pay packet, fighting for gigs, essentially diluting clubland more than it is already?
As I said at the top of this post, maybe this needs to be a new thread or 3.

[crime]

Not sure if it really needs a new thread seeing as it's been discussed to death over and over again...
and personally I can't see real formats totally dying out because it's nice coming back from a record schop with a cd with a cool little book inside, or a record.. I for one will still buy records and cds if I like something enough as I'm sure other people will...

Why another thread or 3? Seems like just another excuse to repeat yourself over and over again with ill informed drivel til it's home time.. (This is not directed at anyone personally)

[davethedrummer]

i dont see why you let it get to you. did you ever tape stuff as kids? of course you did.
home taping was supposed to kill music, luckily it never did neither will a few illegal downloads.

if i was making a living from music i'd be happy with that i was doing what i loved be thankful i was leaving an impression on the kids that were stealing my music. thats all it will be...kids. they wouldnt of bought your record anyway so i very much doubt they are taking anything away from you at all.

i'd be happy that people wanted to steal my music actually. imagine if nobody gave a shit what you were doing at the moment. then you really would be pissed off. just a thought ;) (i may happen soon)


or you could always go and get a real job like me and work for a living :razz: :lol:


the above post is not to be taken too seriously ;)


mate
i'm 36 , when i was a kid all you had was a record player
a radio and a tape deck.
casettes sounded hissy ( and shitty ) and flat in comparison to your records
and the ultimte choice was to go buy the record if you wanted crystal sound.
then along came cds.....

cds sounded wonderful and you could still tape them
but you couldn't record them onto anything other than a casette tape
and the difference of quality became more apparent than ever before.

then dats came around , but they were expensive and soon became the professionals choice but were dropped from most major hi fi's manufacturers ranges shortly after their arrival onto the market place.. cos no one wanted them and mosst people had just replaced their entire record collection with cds.

then the internet appeared , people began to get faster computers and cd roms came alone , then the cd burner and finally the software for ripping and reburning audio to get round the scms
( serial copy management system ) encoded onto commercial cds.

what we have now
is FAR more sophisticated than just taping your favourite album so you can listen to it on your walkman.

you can make digital copies , exact replicas of audio art , sell them , give them to your mates , do whatever the f@ck you want with them.

it is not the same era as the phrase " home taping is killing music "
you know why home taping didn't kill music?


'cos it was crap that's why


take it seriously , 'cos it's in your backyard too.

[crime]

it is not the same era as the phrase " home taping is killing music "
you know why home taping didn't kill music?


'cos it was crap that's why


take it seriously , 'cos it's in your backyard too.

thing is though, there's nothing that can really be done about it... I know it's annoying, it's annoying that techno doesn't sell as much as it used to, but the pandoras box has been opened now and there is no going back... I mean look at what happened to Metallica when they started berating Napster.. Rightly or wrongly a lot of people lost respect for them, I'm not saying it's right that musicians feel they are being ripped off, but this is a sad fact of our times, sad in the same way that you don't have 5+ regular techno nights in London any more, in the same way that you have to wade through so much shite in the record store to find something good, and sad in the way that things are much tougher than they used to be..
you just have to work around it and try your best to keep your chin up....

[davethedrummer]

Not everyone wants to work a sucky job, to be good at music, you need to have the time to commit to it.

I`m ok, I`m lucky to have found a job that allows me the hours I want, for good money, but it took ages to get something like that.

All these arguments are moot. The point is, it`s all just an attempt to justify theft. If you pay for ohter forms of entertainment, why should music not be paid for too.


bals db. henry is pissed at him having his music stile, yet how many ilegally used samples has he made money off during the years ? did he clear & pay rotalties for all of them ? i think not

and hes far from the only one.. not by a long shot. especially round here...

Crime, did you clear the Streethawk samples ?

i have to hold my hands up here
i don't clint eastwood would 've guested on our record if we'd asked him though.

[module]

i cant help think if everyone had of seen this coming they would have banded together & done something.

where as it happens to ppl one by one & they get pissed off as & when it happens to them.



point in case. i know a guy d'loaded Closer by Hawtin a month before it came out. he jus laughed & pretty much said '**** richie' but now its happened to one of his IDM heros he's gona ll anti-d'load. now, the same guy also cut part of a BMB live set to bits & played trax at a payed gig. when i pulled him about that, he jus laughed & said '**** regis & surgeon' but was still miffed about whatever IDM artist it was..

it seems ppl only having a passing interest UNTIL IT HAPPENS TO THEM.

which i understand, but c'mon.. this has been on the cards for sooo long.

ya either got to cut your promo list to only those you REALLY trust or jus accept its gonna happen. as handy as MP3 are, and as wide as Ableton & Traktor & cdj's are used, i dont think its gonna kill the sales of an established artist like Drummer.

[The Overfiend]

Even though Mr. Established is saying here it is?

[tocsin]

It never ceases to amaze me how people who embraced technology to make their sound are so frightened by where technology is moving. Sad indeed. Let's all throw the baby out with the bath water as we try to unrealistically force the world to conform to our comfort zone.

[tOM B]

I see cracked software a bit differently, i assume software companies have more money than most producers
You might think that, but profit margins on small companies aren't that big. And lets face it, most companies that make music software are quite small. i.e. I'd guess 20 people or less.

Note that the only reason Emagic and Steinberg have survived is they have been bought out by Apple and Yamaha respectively.

Part of the reason for this is the high prices, which are a direct result of pirate software. If everyone bought it, the prices would come down.

i stand corrected - i don't use any software yet and will seriously consider buying it when i need some :)

[davethedrummer]

i cant help think if everyone had of seen this coming they would have banded together & done something.

where as it happens to ppl one by one & they get pissed off as & when it happens to them.



point in case. i know a guy d'loaded Closer by Hawtin a month before it came out. he jus laughed & pretty much said '**** richie' but now its happened to one of his IDM heros he's gona ll anti-d'load. now, the same guy also cut part of a BMB live set to bits & played trax at a payed gig. when i pulled him about that, he jus laughed & said '**** regis & surgeon' but was still miffed about whatever IDM artist it was..

it seems ppl only having a passing interest UNTIL IT HAPPENS TO THEM.

which i understand, but c'mon.. this has been on the cards for sooo long.

ya either got to cut your promo list to only those you REALLY trust or jus accept its gonna happen. as handy as MP3 are, and as wide as Ableton & Traktor & cdj's are used, i dont think its gonna kill the sales of an established artist like Drummer.

vinyl sales are just going down anyway.
i accept that.
illegal downloads are helping the process
soon it will just not be worth spending the time and energy you need
to make music commercially in any way.
is that a good thing?

less musicians in the world = less music


this is still a healthy debate becausei have already learned so much from your opinions

is there an answer ?

selling mp3s from your own site and not distributing anything at all.
no cds ( except by mail order )

no vinyl ( it's not worth it)
exclusivity completely, and when someon buys something
you get al the money.
( which is a lot less than you would earn from vinyl)
and then someone uploads it to soulseek

ok i know that is going to happen.
but now that cd is becoming a more popular alternative to vinyl
its not so unrealistice to just use cd in clubs.
and thats where the change is.

i think the way forward is

no distribution
no record shops
artists empower themselves and sell their own material on the net through their own websites.

pay pal / text message / credit card this is the kind of payment system we need to get round the credit card problem.

everyone these days has a mobile phone
use the account to pay for your tunes just like you would a ringtone.

maybe we are stupid to even bother discussing this
i mean who the hell are we anyway????

but i think it helps

[tocsin]

ps anyone with 1/2 a brain realises aritsts need to be paid for their music.

:thumbsup:

Be sure you get really high on a moral platform saying this and remember it the next time you open your favorite cracked software, use an uncleared sample, etc. :)

The members of the squeeky-clean club in this respect are now invited to show their hands.

[davethedrummer]

ps anyone with 1/2 a brain realises aritsts need to be paid for their music.

:thumbsup:

Be sure you get really high on a moral platform saying this and remember it the next time you open your favorite cracked software, use an uncleared sample, etc. :)

The members of the squeeky-clean club in this respect are now invited to show their hands.

including you?

[Jay Pace]

Ringtones mate, all about ringtones.

Singles actually make more from ringtones than they do through music sales.
Ridiculous.

I think you got it bang on about distribution and overheads though.
Take away pressing plants, wholesalers, distributors and records shops and you lose a lot of overheads.

A label selling its records online is pretty direct. Or selling through an established online vendor like bleep.com or beatport.com - plenty of money to be made there.

Also money moves much, much quicker. No waiting 4 months to get paid from releases. Instant payment! Pretty empowering for the artist. See the direct impact of your music on the market, straight into your bank account. That would be a hell of a buzz...

[tocsin]

ps anyone with 1/2 a brain realises aritsts need to be paid for their music.

:thumbsup:

Be sure you get really high on a moral platform saying this and remember it the next time you open your favorite cracked software, use an uncleared sample, etc. :)

The members of the squeeky-clean club in this respect are now invited to show their hands.

including you?

I've never pretended to be sqeaky-clean so I don't have a hypocrissy to rationalize here. Can you say the same?

[tocsin]

On another note,


vinyl sales are just going down anyway.
i accept that.
illegal downloads are helping the process
soon it will just not be worth spending the time and energy you need
to make music commercially in any way.
is that a good thing?
less musicians in the world = less music

I don't buy vinyl anymore. It's been almost 3 years. Do I download illegal tracks? Nope. See, what a number of people who have suddenlyjumped onto the RIAA boat have failed to miss is that, while you say "music isn't free," there are a number of guys making it for free and doing it ****ing better. I don't have to wait two years for an artist's work to come out anymore when they host it on their webpage, soulseek, whatever and give me permission to play it out. I'm not going to pretend to be the majority. But, I was a guy that had no prob, at one point in my life, walking into a record store and dropping $400 on vinyl regularly. But, I've no love for "vinyl." I prefer the speed and access of digital media over the net where sound can pretty much be spread at the speed of innovation, not held back by someone running a label.

So, is it a good thing that vinyl is dying? In my opinion, absofukkinglutely. Get with the times or get swept away as a relic. Your choice. If the availability of vinyl is all that keeps you doing music, and vinyl disappears, recognize that it's a choice you made and was a suicide rather than a murder.

[dirty_bass]

Excellent Point Steve
Shahoul do the paper?

Indeed.
Paper?
it`s a feckin book man.
You still talk to him?
http://www.iterativemusic.com/~dirtybass/Thesis.jpg

That`s my bro right there, I¬m so proud of him, we`ve been fam since we were 5 years old.

[davethedrummer]

ps anyone with 1/2 a brain realises aritsts need to be paid for their music.

:thumbsup:

Be sure you get really high on a moral platform saying this and remember it the next time you open your favorite cracked software, use an uncleared sample, etc. :)

The members of the squeeky-clean club in this respect are now invited to show their hands.

including you?

I've never pretended to be sqeaky-clean so I don't have a hypocrissy to rationalize here. Can you say the same?

who's pretending?

read my post earlier about clint eastwood
do you really think he'd get on the nic for us in the studio?

for your information
as far as software goes i buy a hell of a lot more than i don't
all my main progs and plugs are registered.

but yes there's a few things here and there that i have tried out
but not much i actually use every day.

and as for music
i always buy my records unless i get sent one
which does happen occasionally ( and i mean occasionally)
and most of what i am sent is no good to play.

[tocsin]

Henry, you're rationalizing doing the same thing as those who "steal music." So, you don't have a leg to stand on here. I don't understand how you can bitch about people who "steal" from you when you steal from others. And I find it insulting when you piss all over an emerging scene in the process. You want to be part of it when it's convenient just as you want to be outside of it when it's convenient. It doesn't work that way.

[Mucky Beats]

just read first few pages of this.... I have never downloaded anything off soulseek or anything like that... lots of my mates have d/l sets whitch if there from a club i think is ok if the dj and club are cool with it. BUT no one should d/l tracks for free coz its wrong and you are killing off good music...please stop saying we carnt stop this ... think of it as a WAR and in any war never except defeat once you make it ok by saying we carnt stop it we have already lost stand up and think how many people do i know that do it and make them stop... even if you do it like smoking dont just tell your self you will quit do it now and never do it again.

IF YOU WANT MUSIC BUY IT !

[Mucky Beats]

just read first few pages of this.... I have never downloaded anything off soulseek or anything like that... lots of my mates have d/l sets whitch if there from a club i think is ok if the dj and club are cool with it. BUT no one should d/l tracks for free coz its wrong and you are killing off good music...please stop saying we carnt stop this ... think of it as a WAR and in any war never except defeat once you make it ok by saying we carnt stop it we have already lost stand up and think how many people do i know that do it and make them stop... even if you do it like smoking dont just tell your self you will quit do it now and never do it again.

IF YOU WANT MUSIC BUY IT !


OR MAKE YOU OWN :eyes:

[Barely Human]

Im bored. Anyone want a cheese toastie?

[crime]

I was going to leave this thread alone now, thinking there wasn't really anything more that was positive that I could contribute, but I would really like to see these people who think they can stop the whole illicit downloads thing try, I mean, seriously, what you going to do? You really think the diehard people who DL all this stop are just going to go "oh, we've been told now, some guy on blackout told us to stop, hmmm, maybe we should.." I don't think so, never going to happen.. If by any chance you do find some magic way of stopping people doing it, be my guest, I stand to benefit, but I seriously don't agree that saying it's going to happen anyway is admitting defeat, it's just being realistic.. I mean, who's got the money to start chasing up people like the RIAA have been? what you going to do, start hacking the P2P servers?? :eh:
just my 2p anyway, hopefully I'll stick to my promise to myself to say no more, but I'm easily led ;) 11 pages, it's been going round in circles, and now the shit is starting to get slung, I mean, I've had a boring day, but come on....

[TechMouse]

You're totally right Mark, you can't stop it.

I do think if people offer cheap, high-quality digital downloads (FLAC or high-quality MP3) as an alternative, then some people will decide that it's morally better to shell out the £1 than download illegally.

As long as people face the choice of £7 vinyl or free (but illegal) download, then it's a no-brainer for anyone that doesn't DJ.

[8 + 2 = 10]

Yes I agreed you can't stop so you have to find a new way. Vinyls are well-overpriced and Henry you just have to face the facts. Either sell only at gigs or make pop

[Sunil]

So, is it a good thing that vinyl is dying? In my opinion, absofukkinglutely. Get with the times or get swept away as a relic. Your choice.

Tell that to real deck technicians, DJs, collectors etc.

As long as there's a love for vinyl it'll always be there.

Vinyl IS NOT dying. It might be a tougher struggle in underground music because of the niche nature of some of it, but once bigger acts or bands etc. are pressing vinyl and the pressing plants are still alive, then labels will still be pressing vinyl. This is a fact of life ;)

In 2004 for instance Armand Van Helden sold something like 67,000 units of one of his singles... on vinyl.

I've also heard a startling statistic of how many Arctic Moneys vinyl LPs sold in Ireland alone. I want to double check on the exact quantity but from a good source in the company that distributes it, I was told it was a very sizeable 5 figure total.

[8 + 2 = 10]

I like the sound of vinyl but it is well over-priced and people have to find better ways of selling.

[crime]

So, is it a good thing that vinyl is dying? In my opinion, absofukkinglutely. Get with the times or get swept away as a relic. Your choice.

Tell that to real deck technicians, DJs, collectors etc.

As long as there's a love for vinyl it'll always be there.

Vinyl IS NOT dying. It might be a tougher struggle in underground music because of the niche nature of some of it, but once bigger acts or bands etc. are pressing vinyl and the pressing plants are still alive, then labels will still be pressing vinyl. This is a fact of life ;)

In 2004 for instance Armand Van Helden sold something like 67,000 units of one of his singles... on vinyl.

I've also heard a startling statistic of how many Arctic Moneys vinyl LPs sold in Ireland alone. I want to double check on the exact quantity but from a good source in the company that distributes it, I was told it was a very sizeable 5 figure total.

Well, I'm glad there's some people here who have the facts to back up the logic, I can't help but feel it's the blind leading the blind sometimes......

[8 + 2 = 10]

So, is it a good thing that vinyl is dying? In my opinion, absofukkinglutely. Get with the times or get swept away as a relic. Your choice.

Tell that to real deck technicians, DJs, collectors etc.

As long as there's a love for vinyl it'll always be there.

Vinyl IS NOT dying. It might be a tougher struggle in underground music because of the niche nature of some of it, but once bigger acts or bands etc. are pressing vinyl and the pressing plants are still alive, then labels will still be pressing vinyl. This is a fact of life ;)

In 2004 for instance Armand Van Helden sold something like 67,000 units of one of his singles... on vinyl.

I've also heard a startling statistic of how many Arctic Moneys vinyl LPs sold in Ireland alone. I want to double check on the exact quantity but from a good source in the company that distributes it, I was told it was a very sizeable 5 figure total.

Yeah but comparing Arctic Monkey cd sales its very marginal though innit, friend?

[Francisco Scaramanga]

yeah, the arctic monkeys shifted a few records, in our shop we sold about 6 or 7, which is a shitload normally, but then we also shifted something like 300 cds, just in the first week they were out - which is completely unheard of at the moment (actually, it was unheard of ever), I mean the arctic monkeys album outsold any single that has come out in the past few years, even the band aid thing or amarillo I think. And all the people who bought the vinyl albums will probably never play them, never even open the shrink wrap, they are collectors only. So I dont think that example can be used cause its truly exceptional.

[eyeswithoutaface]

this thread has descended into somewhat of a pointless debate. Im sorry but people cant complain about people putting their records up online stolen, only to reveal that they have pirated software on their systems. The amount of use of said software is totally irrelevant, if you have it, you have it. Simple.

Loads of great points in here that i think everyone would be better concentrating on

[Francisco Scaramanga]

this thread has descended into somewhat of a pointless debate. Im sorry but people cant complain about people putting their records up online stolen, only to reveal that they have pirated software on their systems. The amount of use of said software is totally irrelevant, if you have it, you have it. Simple.

Loads of great points in here that i think everyone would be better concentrating on

Its all starting to make my head hurt now, but there really have been some great points, including some that didn't get raised the last time this debate happened on such a large scale, so I reckon we're going around in a spiral rather than a circle, everytime we go around, theres a few more good ideas getting picked up on route.

One thing though, thats probably been nearly forgotten in the last 12 pages or whatever - whoever it was that put the demos for D.A.V.E's record up on soulseek before it was even released remains a twatface.

[tocsin]

I just don't like it when I see this meme repeatedly brought up ("music isn't free," "MP3 is destroying the underground," "online piracy will make it so artists don't make music anymore"). I'm sorry, but grow the **** up already. This is the nature of our scene and it's largely there as a result of how it was started. To go from something rooted in lawless defiance to the mainstream music industry, all while breaking the law and stealing in numerous ways yourself, only to turn around and act like the spokesmodel for the same industry you ripped off, and then justifying your criminal acts the same way the kids who pirate mp3s do today ("do you think they really care?" "Well, I've bought most of my ..." etc.) is straight-up hypocritical geezer horseshit.

To sum it up, it says "Do as I say, not as I do."

Don't want to get crushed by piracy? For ****s sake, learn how to take advantage of it already. It's not like this hasn't been said in the past either.

A.) People who do DJ digital files are more inclined to by them than those who don't. For a buck, you have no wait, no risk of mislabeling or errors, and high quality. Between all the ****ing geeks on this site, we've collectively got more storage space and bandwidth than we know what to ****ing do with. And it's not even expensive anymore. I just recently got a dedicated server with an 80GB HD and 1500 gigs bandwidth a month for $49 a month.
B.) People are still buying music, or pirating the graphics for them, posting info on discogs, etc. Take advantage of the minimal physical distribution you still have, along with all online distributions (legal and illegal) to hype a centralized store by and for the artists. All it would need is a mySQL database with pointers to media and a means of accepting credit cards. Then, from that server, you could distribute direct downloads through any server like the one I mention in A above. Cut the ****ing middle-men out of the digital. We don't need them.
C.) Spam the **** out of P2P. Don't wait for the kid to pirate your track and host it. Rather, make a number of different filenames that are similar and fake the bitrates. In other words, encode something to a 32kbit MP3. Then, take the 32kbit MP3 and encode to 320kbit, 256, 128, etc. It will still sound like shit and will make it harder to distinguish good from bad. Oh yeah, throw a link to the central server where the MP3 can be purchased in the media.
D.) Offer some free shit from the centralized site just to bring people in.
We all have the power to do this collectively and, at the very worst, offset some of the losses incurred by piracy and/or lack of vinyl sales. And it can co-exist with those of us who like to make music for free as well.

I can understand people getting pissed about unreleased tracks becoming available in advance. But, I'm just tired of seeing the repeated bashing on those of us who once showed great support with the bills we sank on records by some of the very people who post here, and then stopped buying those records when the technology advanced in a way that allowed us to play the most current and cutting edge music without having to wait for some ****ing label to determine that the time was finally right to release the sound. It pisses me off and it gets harder and harder for me to determine how genuine someone is being when they have no problem trashing that whole scene as, given that I'm not aware of anyone here that can pretend they haven't stolen in one way or another with this music, the moral tone is hollow and it seems like some people are getting more and more threatened by the notion that digital technology, free distribution, etc. has finally kicked a production revolution into gear, thus making "producers"
that sell music completely obsolete and unecesary to those who are happy with their own DIY methods.

Seriously, is the "theft" that really bothers people here who have a stake in this shit or is it more the fear of becoming obsolete that results in this MP3/Piracy rerun we see here all the time?

[dirty_bass]

Great post man.
I`d be willing to get involved in some kind of collective online distribution site.
Even if it`s just throwing in some money.

[SlavikSvensk]

Great post man.
I`d be willing to get involved in some kind of collective online distribution site.
Even if it`s just throwing in some money.

that's really it, isn't it. techno needs its own version of itunes. itunes has proven that, as tocsin says, loads of people will pay for tracks as long as they are cheap and high-quality.

[The Divide]

vinyl sales are just going down anyway.
i accept that.
illegal downloads are helping the process
soon it will just not be worth spending the time and energy you need
to make music commercially in any way.
is that a good thing?

less musicians in the world = less music



Less musicians?

You have to be kidding me, there’s literally hundreds of thousands of people getting into writing music every year right across the UK. There are community based (and funded) projects cropping up where anyone can get into making music. Shit I even saw an advert on the telly for reason not so long back

I work part time in a hospital and in the last 6 months I have met 4 people around my age, one writes DnB, one make techno (that makes 2 inc me??!) and one Dubstep and some other guy whos making bassline house. Om maybe none of us are real musicians but you get the idea. One has a full studio setup and the other guys are all pc based. Never the less I doubt that I would have just bumped into 4 artists at work 5-10 years ago like that

You think its all cming to an end? This is just the begining imo, we on the start of something new here. Those who make a living out of music may not be doing so soon, just like what happens in just about every trade out there. Bad, yes in a way but its just a fact of life that things are forever changing. What matters the most is the club scene and the quality of the music that’s coming out. Right now people are starting to realize those formulas they are sticking by aren’t working anymore. That’s a positive in my book, a big one at that.

If vinyl dies, if labels even die, it wont stop nothing, not as long as the internet is around. Its just going to root out the people who in this game with wrong intentions imo. Survival of the strongest

P.S I am not trying to sound like mr bigshot, I admint im a nobody but Im going to be around doing this untill i die because i ****ing love it

[gunjack]

i love the idiot who says vinyl is overpriced!!!!! you know how much an artist makes for one of his own records?!?!?!

[gunjack]

it's the blind leading the blind




quote of the year

[oldbugger]

i love the idiot who says vinyl is overpriced!!!!! you know how much an artist makes for one of his own records?!?!?!

yes we all do...its been explained to us 'stupid kids' already in this thread ;)

[gunjack]

seriously though, the idea is to create a record that is more than just a piece of petrolium. ppl but the records because they want to hold a physical piece of the artist in their hands. this is why it is good to do concept records with full artwork covers etc and really concentrate on marketing, but at the same time it is so expensive to put art on your records and keep concepts intact that nowadays it becomes a vicious cycle...

[gunjack]

should say *buy, not "but" CAN WE GET A FREAKING EDIT BUTTON ALREADY?!

[oldbugger]

seriously though, the idea is to create a record that is more than just a piece of petrolium. ppl but the records because they want to hold a physical piece of the artist in their hands. this is why it is good to do concept records with full artwork covers etc and really concentrate on marketing, but at the same time it is so expensive to put art on your records and keep concepts intact that nowadays it becomes a vicious cycle...

maybe thats still the case with some people, but that is deffinatly dieing.

it is obvious to see that the future is in digital dowloads of some sort. if it isn't obvious to you maybe you will be one of those that gets left behind in all the shit. ;)

[gunjack]

oh thank you expert of the music insutry, what ever would we do without you? somebody get this guy a helmet....

[oldbugger]

oh thank you expert of the music insutry, what ever would we do without you? somebody get this guy a helmet....

thankyou ;)

xxxx

[gunjack]

left behind in all the shit? how many records do you have out? maybe you talk like that to your little friends but this aint your grandmas house there guy.



anyway are you saying that all music will be downloaded in the future and the physical medias will be lost? what a joke.


full quality, physical releases will never be in danger until the quality of downloads is better than mp3.



i love how folks insist on this, that or the other being "the future" when they have no biz in the industry in the first place.

[oldbugger]

try reading the thread then gunjack

[Jay Pace]

Some really gutsy passionate stuff here.

I'm with Divide. More people are making music now than ever.
Talent will get noticed and rise to the top, fake djs and formulaic boring producers will sink to the bottom.

I'm not paying £8 for a piece of plastic with a picture on it. Why pay to keep a pressing house and distributor in business?
I'd rather pay the artist direct.

Too many links in the chain. Cut them out.

[Jay Pace]

Oh and gunjack - plenty of shops sell WAV files now. Buying them in 24-96 not impossible.
Which would be better than CD.

[oldbugger]

i love how folks insist on this, that or the other being "the future" when they have no biz in the industry in the first place.


thats how ****in arrogant you are.

i used to buy gunjack tunes in the past.. i would never give anything to such an arrogant prick as you though. the shit you spout is untrue.

sorry to everyone here.. this has nothing to do with this post.. just this joker in general.

[dirty_bass]

It`s a toss up really.
some people prefer to buy more than data, and it is nice to have some physical product in your hands, but at the same time you can`t ignore the ipod generation (although sometimes I do wanna slap those trendy fashion following white earphone wearing buggers).
What techno needs, as was just discussed, is our own online distribution network, not just all the other download sites, as they are a mash up and don`t recognise the cult/specialist following of techno, some kind of online mp3/wav pay portal that represents techno.

[dirty_bass]

For us by us.

[gunjack]

try reading the thread then gunjack



try reading the brown eye dirty there fukwit

[gunjack]

as for selling WAVs, connection speed is the issue.

[Jay Pace]

some kind of online mp3/wav pay portal that represents techno.

Beatport?
Where I buy most of my stuff these days...

[Jay Pace]

as for selling WAVs, connection speed is the issue.

Bandwidth doubles about every 9 months.
20 meg pipes into homes in some places.

Speed not going to be an issue in a year or two.

[gunjack]

i love how folks insist on this, that or the other being "the future" when they have no biz in the industry in the first place.


thats how **** arrogant you are.

i used to buy gunjack tunes in the past.. i would never give anything to such an arrogant prick as you though. the shit you spout is untrue.

sorry to everyone here.. this has nothing to do with this post.. just this joker in general.


now see here dickhead: i wouldnt have spoken to you like that had you not TALKED DOWN to me with your freaking: "it is obvious to see that the future is in digital dowloads of some sort. if it isn't obvious to you maybe you will be one of those that gets left behind in all the shit. "


can u give me a f ucking break please?


dont like being talked to in an arrogant way? maybve try showing the respect you EXPECT in return.

[eyeswithoutaface]

from this thread i can easily make out 2 dividing camps.

One camp genuinely just doesnt care about making money on their music, they are grateful enough they have the talen, skills, resources and opportunities open to them to be releasing music, wether this is via the medium of vinyl or the digital domain. Any monie's due in are seen as a welcome bonus to this camp. The music is certainly without a doubt the main incentive in this camp. The other camp seem's to automatically assume they should be getting paid good whack for everything they do, regardless of sale's, the current market etc etc and whilst maintaining a solid love for the music, its quite clear that there is a greater love for making some money. Which is great if that's what you want, i couldnt care less. I know which camp im in!

People using the fact they have records out or quoting numbers of sale's as a defence in a debate are so misled its untrue, its quite apparent that pretty much any monkey can get a record released these days if they try, i even know people who have records due out who havent tried at all and its still happened, that's how easy it is

but

me, well, im interested in getting my MUSIC out there. That's the big difference. You have to decide wether you want to carry on putting out music, or carry on putting out records. If it's the latter, then really, just stop the constant moaning when someone puts it online or it doesnt sell well, because i think you'd have to be naive not to at least consider these happening anyway, so i think people need to stop acting like there the first person it's happened too

Jay is bang on. Too many link's in the chain

if it carrie's on like this, releasing will become such a minefield both morally and materialistically, that i think alot of people wont bother!

[gunjack]

as for selling WAVs, connection speed is the issue.

Bandwidth doubles about every 9 months.
20 meg pipes into homes in some places.

Speed not going to be an issue in a year or two.


well that is a good point i suppose, but most countries have a longer road ahead of them than 2 years. uk, usa, japan, korea maybe, but the rest of the world will need to catch up, but anyway i am not against digital music but for a collector or enthusiast there will never be a replacement for a physical release. it is more than just recorded music. it is something crafted by the artist and presented to the world.....

[gunjack]

if it carrie's on like this, releasing will become such a minefield both morally and materialistically, that i think alot of people wont bother!



what he said.

[oldbugger]

i love how folks insist on this, that or the other being "the future" when they have no biz in the industry in the first place.


thats how **** arrogant you are.

i used to buy gunjack tunes in the past.. i would never give anything to such an arrogant prick as you though. the shit you spout is untrue.

sorry to everyone here.. this has nothing to do with this post.. just this joker in general.


now see here dickhead: i wouldnt have spoken to you like that had you not TALKED DOWN to me with your freaking: "it is obvious to see that the future is in digital dowloads of some sort. if it isn't obvious to you maybe you will be one of those that gets left behind in all the shit. "


can u give me a f ucking break please?


dont like being talked to in an arrogant way? maybve try showing the respect you EXPECT in return.

i dont want respect.. but i sure as hell wont give it to you anyway. if you don't understand why there is no hope. you talk down to everyone and seem to think you are the be all and end all.

i swore blind i wouldnt get involved in a thread that you were in ever again...

i'll remember in futere..

ok DICKHEAD?

[eyeswithoutaface]

just read that, im with Steve

we need something by us, for us

Beatport is great, and il be getting my stuff for sale on there off some labels very shortly

the other crap, yeah, wow, didnt see this one turning personal. some people need to evaluate their own sense of self worth

[eyeswithoutaface]

bandwith and speed isnt an issue. even on a 2.2meg line i have no trouble accepting WAV's off friends or off the internet that friends have uploaded for me, and ive seen examples of people in japan with 50meg home connections, so i dont accept that bandwith is an issue there, of course some people dont have the access, but well we cant really account for people failing to bring themselves up to speed with the rest of us hehe

[The Divide]

Yea I also agree

[gunjack]

eyes, if you read what i said: UK and japan may have great connections, but the rest of the world? south america? south asia? africa? they have along way to go, it isnt an issue for ppl in usa japan canada etc, but that aint the whole world.


oldbugger: no dumbass i just talk down to ppl who talk like they know everything when they are about as involved in this industry as a george w bush is involved in the peace process.

see you accuse me of being arrogant but after talking down to me in the first place, thats called a HY-PO-CRITE, look it up analwart.

[gunjack]

eyes: "failing to bring themselves up to speed with the rest of us" ?????? what a joke, try breaking the telecommunications monopolies in corrupt countries so ppl have access to industry standard connections. how can you blame "people" ?????? dude you really need to travel in 2nd and 3rd world countries and then try saying crap like that. i been waiting for my DSL line here in my office for a month and a half, but the goddamned mexican tellecommunications indutry is so corrupt that i bet i will have to wait another month and a half.... is that my fault for not "keeping up"? dont be like that dude, your country is not the center of the universe.

[eyeswithoutaface]

i dont think my country is the centre of the universe, nor would i want it too be

but something tells me the least of the worries in africa right now are wether or not they are getting upgraded to 10meg connections in order to be able to download my latest ep in WAV format.

so its a moot point. there are places in Africa that wont see the technology needed to download a game of Pong within the next 25 years, therefore its totally out of our hands and totally irrelevant. I do feel for those less better off than myself, or this country as a whole, but its out of my hands, and ive always retained a certain level of selfishness. So what, if i dont look after myself then no one else is going too

:)

[oldbugger]

eyes, if you read what i said: UK and japan may have great connections, but the rest of the world? south america? south asia? africa? they have along way to go, it isnt an issue for ppl in usa japan canada etc, but that aint the whole world.


oldbugger: no dumbass i just talk down to ppl who talk like they know everything when they are about as involved in this industry as a george w bush is involved in the peace process.

see you accuse me of being arrogant but after talking down to me in the first place, thats called a HY-PO-CRITE, look it up analwart.

:lol:

in the first place? **** me!. i think you forget how much shit you spout in the past so you don't even realise if you spoke down to anyone in the first place or not

you head is so far up your own arse to even realise your talking down to ppeople in the first place.

anyway.. off topic.

[The Divide]

Here comes the amazing traveling Gunsack....

http://www.gazzola.us/MTP/Images/motorhoem.jpg

[gunjack]

hey thats dope where can i get one?

[eyeswithoutaface]

what, that's not yours???!!!

[Jay Pace]

Deafie:

Developing countries will just end up using mobile phones to connect. Been forecast this way for years.
The UK, US, Japan etc all got a headstart because of the cable networks installed for tv, the landlines etc. The infrastructure was always there, it just took a while to use it.

Mobile phone penetration in eastern europe, south america etc etc is incredible high amongst urbanites, youth etc basically anyone who can buy techno will more than likely have a mobile phone. Give it a couple of years and you can get the speeds we currently call high speed broadband through your phone.
Phones link up to cheap laptops, everything is wifi or bluetooth, data gets share on a scale hitherto unseen.

Its all going to happen dude. Just a matter of time.

Whats more ridiculous is that people have known this for years....

[gunjack]

eyes, if you read what i said: UK and japan may have great connections, but the rest of the world? south america? south asia? africa? they have along way to go, it isnt an issue for ppl in usa japan canada etc, but that aint the whole world.


oldbugger: no dumbass i just talk down to ppl who talk like they know everything when they are about as involved in this industry as a george w bush is involved in the peace process.

see you accuse me of being arrogant but after talking down to me in the first place, thats called a HY-PO-CRITE, look it up analwart.

:lol:

in the first place? **** me!. i think you forget how much shit you spout in the past so you don't even realise if you spoke down to anyone in the first place or not

you head is so far up your own arse to even realise your talking down to ppeople in the first place.

anyway.. off topic.



dude i will explain one more time, you act like you know lots and talk like you are at the center of it all when you have F uck all to do with this biz, thats why we had problems in the first place. then you bait me and get pissed when you get bit!!!! pffffft

[Jay Pace]

Deafie:

Developing countries will just end up using mobile phones to connect. Been forecast this way for years.
The UK, US, Japan etc all got a headstart because of the cable networks installed for tv, the landlines etc. The infrastructure was always there, it just took a while to use it.

Mobile phone penetration in eastern europe, south america etc etc is incredible high amongst urbanites, youth etc basically anyone who can buy techno will more than likely have a mobile phone. Give it a couple of years and you can get the speeds we currently call high speed broadband through your phone.
Phones link up to cheap laptops, everything is wifi or bluetooth, data gets share on a scale hitherto unseen.

Its all going to happen dude. Just a matter of time.

Whats more ridiculous is that people have known this for years....

[gunjack]

jay, yea dawg but the idea is that you and i are geeks who know how and why the machines do what they do.

[Sunil]

Yeah but comparing Arctic Monkey cd sales its very marginal though innit, friend?

It was Arctic Monkey VINYL sales, and granted they are a record breaking band I was astounded that any release could be selling anywhere close to that on vinyl in this country. I was just making the point that vinyl 's death is not impending like someone had said. I mean people have said vinyl is on the way out for years, but it's still here, people WANT it to stay. In our sector of music it is troubled sure, but I can't honestly see any death on the way... I really can't. I think anyone that believes this is fooling themselves. If vinyl dies then that means it dissappears entirely in EVERY form of music, and there's absoloutely no indication now that suggests that will happen.

Re: cutting out the middle men.. I do think this would be good news for the artist for sure, but artists all have this option as we speak, many are doing it already. And as a neutral for a moment (even though I work in a shop!) I do think having your record for sale in a record shop is still important in some ways, even if it isn't as profitable.

[eyeswithoutaface]

you dont have to be a geek to work a net connection via a mobile phone

our dog has his own phone and he manages just fine, although his little paws rub on the button's he says

[Sunil]

people WANT it to stay.

Well, not all people obviously... but a lot ;)

[eyeswithoutaface]

Sunil i think what would of made it clearer is if the people's who say vinyl will be dead within a few years did a bit of research like yourself, because they'd come to the more clear and concise conclusion that Vinyl will become a medium that is not viable for the release of techno, thus rendering it void as a medium within the TECHNO scene. As a feverent buyer of music as a whole on vinyl, i totally see where your example was leading mate, and i personally am seeing more releases by bands and more mainstream artists appearing as vinyl releases, with the 7" single format quite popular at the moment

[dan the acid man]

can we lay off the personal insults please, its turning a great discussion into a playground name calling joke.

but to say people who dont release records or own a record label haven't got anything to do with the scene is a bit off imo.

if you love/ buy the music, then you're involved in the scene

[tocsin]

oldbugger: no dumbass i just talk down to ppl who talk like they know everything when they are about as involved in
this industry as a george w bush is involved in the peace process.

Quick question. When did you come to consider your potential audience as not involved in the industry? They're just as much the industry as you are since, without them, you've got no choice but to share your music for free. See, those who don't run labels or produce are a big part of the industry, if not the biggest, and they have spoken loudly when it comes to digital music. The fact is, the market wants digital music moreso than vinyl. Now, whenever this issue comes up, I don't understand why people feel a need to act like it can only be one or the other. You can sell both MP3s and vinyl if you want. And, let's face it, even in your 2nd/3rd world "no broadband access" argument, techno records aren't exactly getting shipped in their easilly either. It becomes a luxury item or a gift by touring kids. Seriously, anyone fighting digital at this point is already left behind. And that's why you're seeing some of the tantrums. You're witnessing no shortage of artists who are feeling like someone just
walked over their grave. One of the things that got me into techno was the complete lack of rockstar bullshit. That seemed to change down the line somewhere. But, just as techno stuck up it's middlefinger at a lot of the rockstar bullshit in the past, you can expect a rude awakening if you think that element is going to come around and burn you at some point if you start acting the same. Who gives a **** about producers with attitudes when most people can download a ridiculously simplified version of Acid and be 100% happy with the output? Doesn't matter if people think it's crap either. It's just a way for such people to paint themselves into a corner of obscurity while the rest of the world does what it wants to do.

[oldbugger]

eyes, if you read what i said: UK and japan may have great connections, but the rest of the world? south america? south asia? africa? they have along way to go, it isnt an issue for ppl in usa japan canada etc, but that aint the whole world.


oldbugger: no dumbass i just talk down to ppl who talk like they know everything when they are about as involved in this industry as a george w bush is involved in the peace process.

see you accuse me of being arrogant but after talking down to me in the first place, thats called a HY-PO-CRITE, look it up analwart.

:lol:

in the first place? **** me!. i think you forget how much shit you spout in the past so you don't even realise if you spoke down to anyone in the first place or not

you head is so far up your own arse to even realise your talking down to ppeople in the first place.

anyway.. off topic.



dude i will explain one more time, you act like you know lots and talk like you are at the center of it all when you have F uck all to do with this biz, thats why we had problems in the first place. then you bait me and get pissed when you get bit!!!! pffffft

haha.. ok, if thats what you think.

i certainly do not pretend to have anything to do with this biz apart from having an opinion on something i love on an internet forum.

and that isn't the reason we had the problem in the first place.
i got annoyed at your comments ages ago.,,***********
*
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deleted coz i dont want to carry on argueing with such a pathetic arsehole..

if you want to argue with me carry on.i wont reply to you on the tread again.

happy to tell you what i think in private but not on forum in full view.

your a legend :lol: i wish i had the right to have an opinion just like you :lol:

[SlavikSvensk]

oldbugger: no dumbass i just talk down to ppl who talk like they know everything when they are about as involved in
this industry as a george w bush is involved in the peace process.

Quick question. When did you come to consider your potential audience as not involved in the industry? They're just as much the industry as you are since, without them, you've got no choice but to share your music for free. See, those who don't run labels or produce are a big part of the industry, if not the biggest, and they have spoken loudly when it comes to digital music. The fact is, the market wants digital music moreso than vinyl. Now, whenever this issue comes up, I don't understand why people feel a need to act like it can only be one or the other. You can sell both MP3s and vinyl if you want. And, let's face it, even in your 2nd/3rd world "no broadband access" argument, techno records aren't exactly getting shipped in their easilly either. It becomes a luxury item or a gift by touring kids. Seriously, anyone fighting digital at this point is already left behind. And that's why you're seeing some of the tantrums. You're witnessing no shortage of artists who are feeling like someone just
walked over their grave. One of the things that got me into techno was the complete lack of rockstar bullshit. That seemed to change down the line somewhere. But, just as techno stuck up it's middlefinger at a lot of the rockstar bullshit in the past, you can expect a rude awakening if you think that element is going to come around and burn you at some point if you start acting the same. Who gives a **** about producers with attitudes when most people can download a ridiculously simplified version of Acid and be 100% happy with the output? Doesn't matter if people think it's crap either. It's just a way for such people to paint themselves into a corner of obscurity while the rest of the world does what it wants to do.

bingo. and let's face it, embracing digital delivery has to start somewhere. it's only a matter of time before broadband is readily available among people all over the world who have the means and desire to buy electronic music. might take a while, but we'll get there.

http://tprc.org/papers/2003/268/broadbanddivide.htm

[massplanck]

I'm going to kill you all.

[gunjack]

whatever. this guy gets a big up hiss ass when i breathe wrong f uck it

[SlavikSvensk]

I'm going to kill you all.

you already killed me. i'm posting from purgatory...

[dan the acid man]

I'm going to kill you all.

don't be giving us that, we all know the nurse wont let you have sharpe objects anymore

[Sunil]

Sunil i think what would of made it clearer is if the people's who say vinyl will be dead within a few years did a bit of research like yourself, because they'd come to the more clear and concise conclusion that Vinyl will become a medium that is not viable for the release of techno, thus rendering it void as a medium within the TECHNO scene. As a feverent buyer of music as a whole on vinyl, i totally see where your example was leading mate, and i personally am seeing more releases by bands and more mainstream artists appearing as vinyl releases, with the 7" single format quite popular at the moment

Yeah, I guess there's kinda cross wires on the subject on vinyl in some ways: Is it vinyl within the techno market or vinyl within the music scene on a whole? I guess my thinking on the issue is that once vinyl is being manufactured and sold somewhere, then it exists, and is not dead. Once the option is still there, I can still see underground or techno labels pressing it. I guess as a label some people have higher expectations for sales etc. but many artists are still going to want to get a record out if given the choice. There will be a demand of some sort, and 'die-hard' labels (if that's what they'll be viewed as) that will still release records. Also things change, fashions change, maybe digital files won't be as appealing to the post I-Pod generation? Maybe techno will see a resurgence is popularity sales wise? I'm not sure that all the predicted changes in the vinyl/digital markets are going to be as swift and emphatic as some people are saying.

I was on a short trip to Berlin recently with students from the DJ class I tutor, and one of the days we went for a tour of Dub Plates mastering, where I briefly brought up the subject of "The Future Of Vinyl", and they honestly saw no danger, and that business was still good. Funnily enough the oil issue that some people are concerned with didn't seem to be a worry for them at all... more worrying to them was the prospect of a breakdown and having to acquire parts or components for their aging 1970's machinery, which are not manufactured anymore. He also mentioned a particular chemical (can't remember the name) that they may require for cutting the lacquer in the future.. a chemical which is apparantly outlawed in Germany.

[dirty_bass]

from this thread i can easily make out 2 dividing camps.

One camp genuinely just doesnt care about making money on their music, they are grateful enough they have the talen, skills, resources and opportunities open to them to be releasing music, wether this is via the medium of vinyl or the digital domain. Any monie's due in are seen as a welcome bonus to this camp. The music is certainly without a doubt the main incentive in this camp. The other camp seem's to automatically assume they should be getting paid good whack for everything they do, regardless of sale's, the current market etc etc and whilst maintaining a solid love for the music, its quite clear that there is a greater love for making some money. Which is great if that's what you want, i couldnt care less. I know which camp im in!

People using the fact they have records out or quoting numbers of sale's as a defence in a debate are so misled its untrue, its quite apparent that pretty much any monkey can get a record released these days if they try, i even know people who have records due out who havent tried at all and its still happened, that's how easy it is

but

me, well, im interested in getting my MUSIC out there. That's the big difference. You have to decide wether you want to carry on putting out music, or carry on putting out records. If it's the latter, then really, just stop the constant moaning when someone puts it online or it doesnt sell well, because i think you'd have to be naive not to at least consider these happening anyway, so i think people need to stop acting like there the first person it's happened too

Jay is bang on. Too many link's in the chain

if it carrie's on like this, releasing will become such a minefield both morally and materialistically, that i think alot of people wont bother!

that`s all a bit black and white really.
Expecting to get fairly paid for your work isn`t greedy.
I know that you Scot, send your stuff to loads of labels for release, and I know that if those labels dissapear, it will afect you directly.
Sure we need digital downloads for techno, our own place that everyone can go to that knows and specialises in digital techno etc.
But vinyl is still the main medium that gets played in the clubs etc.
When I see the attitude "oh **** surgeon/whoever", when talking about illegal downlaods etc, we are looking at a total lack of respect.

I don`t think many, me included, expect to get rich running a label, but as long as it pays for itself, then thats cool. However when people download and then use your stuff to play in ableton or whatever, with no permission, it is just disrespectful.

The fact is this scene is getting smaller, so why can`t we just support each other for ****s sake.
What`s wrong with that?
If we go the other way
the selfish way
then we are just as bad as the other shit eating commercial bollocks, but even worse, we are on a smaller scale, and feeding off each other.
There is no winner in this race, so we need to stop looking at things with the ME outlook.
We should all be helping each other cross the line together, or we will soon find out there is no race, just a bunch of selfish ****ers walking blindly down empty roads.

[eyeswithoutaface]

well u know me Steve, i didnt mean literaly its not right to expect to get fairly paid. but thats the main word. FAIRLY.

there's no denying that some people here expect they should be getting more than they do, or want too, and that was my point really

we've had many discussions on this and we both share the same view point, at the end of the day it needs to boil down to support, and unfortunately we are not getting that from those who we should be

[TechMouse]

i love the idiot who says vinyl is overpriced!!!!! you know how much an artist makes for one of his own records?!?!?!
Yes I do.

... and I still say vinyl is overpriced!

Coke is overpriced - doesn't stop proper cokeheads from sniffing it by the bagload week in week out. Likewise, vinyl is overpriced but I'm totally hooked on the stuff, and I'm a DJ so I guess that's my excuse.

All I was saying is that for someone who isn't a DJ, I think buying vinyls at £7 a pop is a bit of a stretch.

Cheers for the "idiot" comment though. ;)

[SlavikSvensk]

techmouse, how dare you have an opinion! but be careful, massplanck is out killing everyone involved in this thread.

[Sunil]

All I was saying is that for someone who isn't a DJ, I think buying vinyls at £7 a pop is a bit of a stretch.

But the people that buy techno or whatever records, more often than not are DJs or wannabe DJs. We've all served our time buying records, and we still do... it's basically just love and commitment for what you're into.

Anyway yeah, I agree, records are pricey, no doubt.

[SlavikSvensk]

they're pricey in part because sales are so low. when i was the record buyer for a store in michigan back in the mid 90s, i quickly realized that we needed to sell 2 records to make up the loss for 1 unsold record. that is, we bought the import records wholesale for about $6.50, and sold them for $9.99. so the markup was $3.49.

a bad week would put us in the whole bigtime, and before i got there, the guy before me had had something like 10 bad weeks in a row...

[dirty_bass]

Records are a bit pricey, but the price is set at the outlet, as the PRoducers and the distributers are still essentially gettting the same rate as for years.
I¬m surprised online outlets aren`t cheaper.
However, if anyone has a record shop and wants DB or Singularity direct, I`m willing to deal that way.

[fresh_an_funky_design]

left behind in all the shit? how many records do you have out? maybe you talk like that to your little friends but this aint your grandmas house there guy.



anyway are you saying that all music will be downloaded in the future and the physical medias will be lost? what a joke.


full quality, physical releases will never be in danger until the quality of downloads is better than mp3.



i love how folks insist on this, that or the other being "the future" when they have no biz in the industry in the first place.


trackitdown are doin wav downloads now.
i agree though you cant beat a physical record... u feel like u get some value for money, unlike a mp3 file

[fresh_an_funky_design]

I don`t think many, me included, expect to get rich running a label, but as long as it pays for itself, then thats cool. However when people download and then use your stuff to play in ableton or whatever, with no permission, it is just disrespectful.


:clap: so true

[holotropik]

It`s a toss up really.
some people prefer to buy more than data, and it is nice to have some physical product in your hands, but at the same time you can`t ignore the ipod generation (although sometimes I do wanna slap those trendy fashion following white earphone wearing buggers).
What techno needs, as was just discussed, is our own online distribution network, not just all the other download sites, as they are a mash up and don`t recognise the cult/specialist following of techno, some kind of online mp3/wav pay portal that represents techno.

Out of all this huge thread...this is the word. Perfect idea I reckon. Most existing sites have too much stuff and most of the techno is no where near techno.

[djshiva]

It`s a toss up really.
some people prefer to buy more than data, and it is nice to have some physical product in your hands, but at the same time you can`t ignore the ipod generation (although sometimes I do wanna slap those trendy fashion following white earphone wearing buggers).
What techno needs, as was just discussed, is our own online distribution network, not just all the other download sites, as they are a mash up and don`t recognise the cult/specialist following of techno, some kind of online mp3/wav pay portal that represents techno.

love the idea of people setting up their own distribution on a digital scale. i have been trying to convince some friends with labels to have direct digital downloads available for sale from their label sites.

and as far as the physical medium is concerned, i love my records well and truly, but i can honestly say that, having moved multiple times, i would be happy to never have to move crates and crates of records ever again in my life. vinyl will live on, but if i can get good digital files for a good price, i will do that ALSO.

[djshiva]

oldbugger: no dumbass i just talk down to ppl who talk like they know everything when they are about as involved in
this industry as a george w bush is involved in the peace process.

Quick question. When did you come to consider your potential audience as not involved in the industry? They're just as much the industry as you are since, without them, you've got no choice but to share your music for free. See, those who don't run labels or produce are a big part of the industry, if not the biggest, and they have spoken loudly when it comes to digital music. The fact is, the market wants digital music moreso than vinyl. Now, whenever this issue comes up, I don't understand why people feel a need to act like it can only be one or the other. You can sell both MP3s and vinyl if you want. And, let's face it, even in your 2nd/3rd world "no broadband access" argument, techno records aren't exactly getting shipped in their easilly either. It becomes a luxury item or a gift by touring kids. Seriously, anyone fighting digital at this point is already left behind. And that's why you're seeing some of the tantrums. You're witnessing no shortage of artists who are feeling like someone just
walked over their grave. One of the things that got me into techno was the complete lack of rockstar bullshit. That seemed to change down the line somewhere. But, just as techno stuck up it's middlefinger at a lot of the rockstar bullshit in the past, you can expect a rude awakening if you think that element is going to come around and burn you at some point if you start acting the same. Who gives a **** about producers with attitudes when most people can download a ridiculously simplified version of Acid and be 100% happy with the output? Doesn't matter if people think it's crap either. It's just a way for such people to paint themselves into a corner of obscurity while the rest of the world does what it wants to do.

this is the point that i have been making for some time. the marketing of techno on vinyl was ALWAYS marketed mainly to DJs. but djs are not the only people who listen to techno. therefore we painted ourselves into a corner by releasing on a medium strictly catering to djs. we built a closed loop that is effectively killing itself off in many ways.

why can we not do both? limited runs of vinyl for the DJs and digital releases for digital-based djs AND punters. you have now effectively DOUBLED your market. those who want the joy of breaking the plastic on a new 12" are happy, and those who have never touched a turntable get to rock the new tunes in their car/iPod/workplace CD player.

sure there will be people who download stuff for free, but again we tread the oft proven equation that if people can get high quality downloads for a reasonable price, they will. so let's make it available, cut out the middleman for those who want to buy the downloads, and give artists the ability to expand their market and their profit.

this is not really something that NEEDS to be debated. the reality of it is right in front of us, and we just keep kicking and screaming as we are dragged into the abyss of the very technology that we hyped for years in the very name of the genre we all know and love.

ah, the irony...

[RDR]

I'm going to kill you all.

you already killed me. i'm posting from purgatory...

Oh dear.

Sorry to hear that.. where should i send the flowers?

[RDR]

The whole problem as i see it is that music cannot be protected in its current format, consumners can and will download it, especially if it costs them nothing. It doesnt hurt their pockets, so screw it.

As underground dance music artists we pretty much get ignored by the main stream muso types (if you dont believe me check out ANY issue of the musicians onion magazine, sweet FA about electronic music unless its got something to do with a stockhausen piece :roll: )

We really dont have much say or representation in the industry, as the whole business is busy staring up its own backside/fiddling while rome burns/creating things like pop idle.. etc etc and FAR too busy to be interested in backing non-viable non-commercial artists.

The one thing i find more interesting than anything else is that in the history of recorded music (i mean music on a recording medium) there has NEVER been more democratisation of the spread of music and in particxlar peoples ability to listen to it. It really is the beginning, its isnt even the end of the beginning etc etc (insert churchillian phrasing here)

The only basic truth in music is evolution, broadband content delivery, telephonic wireless delivery, personal music these have only come about in the last 4 years, and it ISNT finished yet. not by a long way, i find the whole thing interesting and really wish i could see where it is all heading - just like everyone here, but unless we have an industry insider amongst us - which as i far as i can see reading this thread we dont, we wont get to be involved on the ground floor of any developments until they are almost upon us.

[TechMouse]

I'm going to kill you all.

you already killed me. i'm posting from purgatory...

Oh dear.

Sorry to hear that.. where should i send the flowers?

He said... purgatory...

[TechMouse]

techmouse, how dare you have an opinion!
What can I say, I'm a dangerous radical.

[holotropik]

I reckon if you build your little corner of the world with like minded artists and push the whole "buy not steal" ideal and give something of value in all media formats if necessary then many will seek you out and support you.

simply because you have momentum and strength and produce tha goods, a stigma and a solidarity - a crew.

[holotropik]

Forget that last comment by me....pie in the sky perfect world idea that doesnt really hold water in this circumstance.

Another stone to throw in tha pond...

I play Live from machines only. I dont DJ and never have. I play instruments as a musician does.
Whenever i have played a gig in between DJs the reaction from punters is far different. I get swamped by peeps who want to know what its all about. they want to know whats going on and how its done. They treat me as a musician and not a DJ. I often get them coming up during my set and want to know what/how I am doing.

Maybe people want to see someone 'playing' something and develop that punter-musician relationship that has always been in music.

I reckon it would be a different scene if there were more artists playing out Live than DJs.

[holotropik]

I am like most here though and feel helpless and have no answers to this huge problem. i too am waiting the storm out to see what pieces can be salvaged.

Nonetheless, i will push on and keep tryin'

[davethedrummer]

Henry, you're rationalizing doing the same thing as those who "steal music." So, you don't have a leg to stand on here. I don't understand how you can bitch about people who "steal" from you when you steal from others. And I find it insulting when you piss all over an emerging scene in the process. You want to be part of it when it's convenient just as you want to be outside of it when it's convenient. It doesn't work that way.


oh shut up tocsin.
get off your high horse

[Miromiric]

what do you mean shut up? tocsin is totally right here. you just can`t be so convenient about these things. it`s ok for you to test a software here and there or to use a loop or two, but it is not ok if someone wants to download your record and see if it`s worth of buying?

[Si the Sigh]

Fu*k off ^

If you want to check a track before buying check an online shop, not download the whole track.

You seem to be here for nothing more than to stir this up man...Leave it out.

[Miromiric]

you can not form a valid opinion based on 30secs lowbitrate clips.
mind you, i buy what i like. what i don`t like goes to the recycle bin.
and don`t tell me to fu*k off.