**format wars** vinyl ? mp3 ? cd ? turntables ? ableton ?

[dan the acid man]

discuss it all in here please, whats your preference.

do you love buying those big round bits of plastic ?
or do you prefer playing cd's, or downloading and using the latest mp3's with final scratch or ableton ?

this is the place for the format wars, let battle commence

[SlavikSvensk]

awesome...nice one dan!

now...VINYL FOREVER YOU TOSSERS! ;)

[rhythmtech]

to be honest it really doesnt matter what the current debate is cause its always the same. humans, it would seem to me, are very much against change, so no matter whether its mp3 vs. vinyl, analog vs. digital ... or whatever. theres always gonna be debates but what happens will happen.. i for one will keep buying mp3s and a little bit of vinyl that i cant get on mp3..

there you go. all sorted.

DAN.. you can close this thread now!!!

[g]

who cares.

[Dj-Richie-Parker]

does anyone have any concrete figures on the sale of vinyl etc, or anything concrete to suggest mp3 will take over vinyl...

i know it would be hard to nail down evidence like that but mabey someone here has some deeper insight into sales etc..???

I know people are gona say "stop worrying" just enjoy your vinyl etc, but id like to quench some fears :paranoid:

[dirty_bass]

You`ve come in a bit late on this one man.
Records shops falling like flies, distributers too, even pressing plants now.
I know of two more record shops just this week.
There`s no heresay, vinyl IS dying.
It will never completely die, but the bubble has burst.
Time to get with the future.

[RDR]

Vinyl will die.. the means of production are leaving the planet and the young ones have little or no experience of touching it.

[oldbugger]

totally changed my views on this lately and i have been buying loads of mp3's off beatport.

i didnt have to go into town, i didnt have to talk shite to the knobhead in my local record shop or i dint have to go to the post office collection depot to pick up the records i have been waiting for all week either.

CD's have never really figured in my world and it seems cd's have been passed by already.. lets face it..whos gonna spend £1300 on a apir of good cd players when you can get a shit hot laptop and a legit copy of ableton and a decent controller for less?

like some tit i know has just done :lol:


loving the whole mp3 thing at the moment.

also i have a couple of hard drives rather than half my house being taken up.
;)

[dan the acid man]

back them upto dvd or cd though oldbugger, or you will cry if one of your hard drives goes down

[oldbugger]

back them upto dvd or cd though oldbugger, or you will cry if one of your hard drives goes down

will do mate..

got myself a nice big external harive recently to back up all my music on and a dvd writer.

got over 300gig of shit now :lol: :oops:

[Dj-Richie-Parker]

yea well for me the vinyl is a part of the passion, bulky as it may be i still loves it.., warts n all

[icb]

the question is this: will vinyl die completely or not, what I mean is that I like vinyl and I will buy it as long as I can play with it on a party night. When there is no more turntables on partys and no more vinyls to come by, than it`s all over. I don`t care if somebody use something else, I just don`t want to stop mixing the analog way. So will it happen? Will vinyl die completely or not?

[Dj-Richie-Parker]

Who is to know..?? im afraid of it becomming mandatory to just have cd dex in a club and mabey one vinyl turnable...:paranoid:

I think it would be a big mistake to let this happen, it would be hard to stop this happening though..lets face it the mp3 cd ableton method has alot going for it...

i think buying a vinyl was a part of dance becomming so unique and cool..??

I think it would be a shame to let it go because of other methods of djing and playing music have more advantages...

It would be like getting rid of your mrs. who you love and grew up with for a broad which has big tits and fancy features, and who isnt as much work..!

I like that description..

So basically all you guys giving up vinyl, shame on you.. :nono:

You may as well go out and commit adultry...!! :lol:

[oldbugger]

So basically all you guys giving up vinyl, shame on you..

not given up...just enjoying ableton too much.




It would be like getting rid of your mrs. who you love and grew up with for a broad which has big tits and fancy features, and who isnt as much work..!



i did that too. :lol:

[Evil G]

well there are audiophiles out there still paying into the tens of thousands of dollars for turntables and cartridges and preamps, so i *know* that vinyl as a medium wont die any time soon.

what kind of music still makes it to vinyl is another question. techno? hard to say, since it's mostly skint kids buying it, not rich old farts. but still i think there will always be a small demand for vinyl from purists and collectors.

i think it would be cool if labels put out vinyl as a limited edition collectors sort of thing a few months earlier than the cd/mp3 release. maybe different mixes so the vinyl holds it's value.

[Dj-Richie-Parker]

what kind of music still makes it to vinyl is another question. techno? hard to say, since it's mostly skint kids buying it, not rich old farts. .

Even though vinyl is more expensive..? i suppose turtables are cheaper than cd dex or laptops..!

But i dunno, where is the love gone people..!

I still find it exiting to order tracks and have it arrive, open it up, give em a quick sniff and cue em up...Rarrrrrrrrr!!!

Try sniffin an mp3!

[rhythmtech]

It would be like getting rid of your mrs. who you love and grew up with for a broad which has big tits and fancy features, and who isnt as much work..!

I like that description..

So basically all you guys giving up vinyl, shame on you.. :nono:

You may as well go out and commit adultry...!! :lol:

sorry ritchie but i find that quite insulting. i've had been playing vinyl for ten years nearly and then switched to ableton. now, ableton is easy to use badly but then again so are dex. any idiot can string the end of to tracks together on dex.

the amount of work that goes into an ableton set is unreal and the amount of practice to get it right is huge.

also... whoever said that techno had to be played on dex? is there an unwritten rule? i firmly believe that anyone that has this "vinyl facist" state of mind is a lot less "techno" than the rest of us.

i realise shops, labels & plants are closing and it really saddens me but throwing the blame on anyone that chooses a differant medium is childish. maybe the labels should look to themselves for reasons.
unfortunatly what happens is that the smaller, better labels take the hit for the mistakes of the bigger labels that can afford the slump.

one other thing... why do all the "vinyl ONLY" crew spend their days moaning about and belittling digital users? have you all nothing better to be doing? cause i sure as hell dont hear much complaining about vinyl from our side. or maybe its just that we've learned to embrace the changes...

[oldbugger]

still find it exiting to order tracks and have it arrive,

yeah finally.. when you can manage to go and collect them coz your never in when they deliver them.


great that.

i was the biggest die hard vinyl junkie once. but now there are so easier ways to get music.

its nothing to do with how cheap decks are or whatever.. i already have them. its about whats a better format. and right now..for me its certainly not vinyl.. far from it.

[Dj-Richie-Parker]

jees dont take some much offence, no need to defend your actions

i aint moaning, my post was ment as more of a laugh...

i prefer vinyl, thats me, and im not any less techno because of it, now that is a bit childish...

sorry if i came accross that people are krap because of not being a vinlyl junkie like me, i know im being more closed minded on the whole thing, i probably will conceed eventually, but not just yet..

djing is djing, using ableton is more music making so they cant really be compared...

[Dj-Richie-Parker]

[quote="rhythmtech"] any idiot can string the end of to tracks together on dex. quote]

i hate that, i dont think i could do that anymore, ya just gotta manipulate

[rhythmtech]

i prefer vinyl, thats me, and im not any less techno because of it, now that is a bit childish...



please do not misqoute me.. read again what i said... in no way does it say that people that "prefer" vinyl are any less techno..

i dont perticularly like being misquoted on this topic

[rhythmtech]

whoever said that techno had to be played on dex? is there an unwritten rule? i firmly believe that anyone that has this "vinyl facist" state of mind is a lot less "techno" than the rest of us.


in no way does that attack anyone for perfering vinyl. it refers to the idiots out there that think vinyl is the only format that is "acceptable"

[Dj-Richie-Parker]

sorry your rite there i missread ya, ;)

[rhythmtech]

djing is djing, using ableton is more music making so they cant really be compared...

eh? :lol: :lol:

man you really gotta do some research.. there are hundres od people using ableton for djing..

[Dj-Richie-Parker]

Ok should have used the word "Can" they be compared..?

sorry i just dont see spinning discs in the same light as tweekin knobs and using a mouse, or even a crossfader on a laptop, im not saying one is better than the other im saying they are diferent...

so do you have a set worked out with ableton, or do you just decide "off da cuff" to pick a track out of the hard drive and cue it up with yer mouse etc...

[rhythmtech]

i do a half live/half dj set with it. i have all my live stuff already to go but it can be changed around as much as i like. withthe dj side of things i usually have a channel set up as my "bag" with about 30/40 tunes ready to go and can pick and choose, depending on crowd reaction. but then theres about 500/600 files on the hard drive anyway so i can pull them.

as for control.. how is it not like a "traditional" set up? have my midi contoller is set up for the live stuff and the other half is set up like a traditional dj mixer.. crossfader and all!!!

again ritchie... do the research! :)

[rhythmtech]

the ONLY differance is that i dont have to worry about beatmatching.. but i've djed with vinyl for so long now that that wasnt an issue anyway.. so really all i've done is given myself more time to work the mix and get it sounding better for the crowd. which is what really matters.

[The Divide]

I like them all

One of the major pitfalls with ableton and controllers is the high latency tho. Does anyone know if this has been solved? I think with plenty of controllers an ableton set would probably be as interesting stage show as someone on the decks.

[rhythmtech]

i use my controller midi'd up to an audiophile usb soundcard with absolutly no latency issues at all... i think its about .021 or something ridiculasly low. doesnt affect my performance at all.

[Honeey]

I really like the fact that there are more and more live sets now via Ableton live and other software. I think that is something that brings underground music and playing techno up to a whole new level.

But it just wouldn't be the same for me to not play techno with vinyl (live own music Ableton sets aside). The act of using the records, mixer, and turntables as tools...so real...you can see everything that is happening and one can have so much fun manipulating the big disc on the decks and flipping it around when you take it out of the sleeve :) I understand things are changing but I have always known vinyl....tried cds and yes it's ok but not even near the same. I always liked the fact that the underground records are so special and unique...cool sleeves and art or the stealth white label.

[mattboyslim]

why does it have to be about one medium? i occasionally use cds, but the majority of my digital stuff now goes into ableton. in here i mix entire tracks with my own loops and producitons, and cut up loops of others material. i apply filters, delays, reverb, side chain compression etc. this is all controlled via a midi controller, which has a knob assigned to tempo so i can mix this with vinyl

how is that a war?

[robin m]

I don't see why this is such an issue. Whatever someone chooses to use, if the end result sounds good - fair play to 'em.

It's a shame that record sales are falling and distributors & labels are going out of business but that's time moving on for ya, either you roll with the punches and look at new ways to make your quid or you quit it and get a job flipping burgers - the same goes for anything that's totally built on change and finding new ways to say bollocks to the status quo.

Personally I love my vinyl, as long as it's there I'll buy it as there's no way downloading an mp3 can compare with actually holding that lovely warped, scratched, heavy, awkward, archaic circle of yesterday's news in my hands - but I'm just into techno to enjoy myself and those stupid expensive records themselves are part of where I get my kicks.

I vote we just let nature take it's course, use whatever we personally choose to use and get back to talking about which tunes do the business whatever format you happen to be playing them in. ;)

[TechMouse]

One of the major pitfalls with ableton and controllers is the high latency tho. Does anyone know if this has been solved? I think with plenty of controllers an ableton set would probably be as interesting stage show as someone on the decks.
The high-end A&H mixers have latency issues too.

You sure as hell can't scratch with 'em.

[Jay Pace]

I invested in a laptop and final scratch because I had stopped buying music as it was too expensive. Now I buy loads, and lots of weirder things that I could never have afforded before.
If you only have £20/30 to spend each month you can end up playing it really safe with what you buy if you only buy vinyl.
Playing out I'll use a mix of vinyl and digital - had too many horrors with technology failing. Always good to have a backup plan...

Incidentally djing isnt the art of playing bits of plastic consecutively using turntables, its just the art of playing other people's music. Format has nothing to do with it.

[rhythmtech]

Incidentally djing isnt the art of playing bits of plastic consecutively using turntables, its just the art of playing other people's music. Format has nothing to do with it.

:clap:

[oldbugger]

Incidentally djing isnt the art of playing bits of plastic consecutively using turntables, its just the art of playing other people's music. Format has nothing to do with it.

:clap:

:clap: :clap:
exactly.

[robin m]

Incidentally djing isnt the art of playing bits of plastic consecutively using turntables, its just the art of playing other people's music. Format has nothing to do with it.

:clap:

:clap: :clap:
exactly.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

Just thought I'd join in. :clown:

[oldbugger]

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[The Divide]

Incidentally djing isnt the art of playing bits of plastic consecutively using turntables, its just the art of playing other people's music. Format has nothing to do with it.

:clap:

:clap: :clap:
exactly.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

Just thought I'd join in. :clown:

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[Dirtyacid]

Well as most Dj,s starting out I was the vinyl junkie but now with the digital era coming along Im moving on I,ve sold off the old set up & im now using 3 cdj,s & final scratch.
My reason for doing this most of all is it,s cheaper in the long run with your average tune costing between a £1 - £2 which mean,s I can buy more & they don,t clog up my room the same I personally think vinyl is on it,s last legs with all the technology of today but that,s me I also think with a cdj you can do some much more with the music looping etc I do still love to spin vinyl but im really into the technical side of dj,ing but at the end of the day each to their own & when it come,s down to it when your in a club doe,s it really matter what format the music is being played on as long as it,s good music I don,t care!!

[rhythmtech]

so thats that one sorted...


anyone up for a bit of analog vs. digital?

personally i'm a fence sitter here. i'm basically running a digital studion (vsti's etc) with 1 analog modelling synth (its as close as i can afford) and running all through an analog desk). but i wonder is digital really that differant these days. i mean look at the pro53. future music did a waveform comparison a while back and he results were about 99.5% similiar to the pro5, the only differance being the more rounded tops and bottoms of the pro5 waveform. but that was b4 the pro53 added the "analog2 knob, which, if i understand correctly, emulates the strange tuning mishaps of old synths.

anyone got any ideas?

[danki]

hhhhhmmmmm, i like it all, my problem is that with ableton, you end up staring at a screen instead of the crowd. having said that lumping wax around is a right pain in the arse

[lunatrick]

I played on a pair of cdj1000's for the first time on the weekend and was blown away by how quickly the conversion took - around 15 minutes and how much more precise they were.........instantly hooked. I wouldn't really want to do the ableton thing for djing as i don't see the point if you mainly play other peoples music....also I think running through a list of filenames isn't as easy as picking out the right cd. But anyway I'm converted...why don't all these labels just switch to selling cd? cheaper and easier I would have thought, plus you have the benefit of a much wider bag of tunes as I have hundreds of cd's which I wouldn't normally have access to when playing out.......

[rhythmtech]

I played on a pair of cdj1000's for the first time on the weekend and was blown away by how quickly the conversion took - around 15 minutes and how much more precise they were.........instantly hooked. I wouldn't really want to do the ableton thing for djing as i don't see the point if you mainly play other peoples music....also I think running through a list of filenames isn't as easy as picking out the right cd. But anyway I'm converted...why don't all these labels just switch to selling cd? cheaper and easier I would have thought, plus you have the benefit of a much wider bag of tunes as I have hundreds of cd's which I wouldn't normally have access to when playing out.......

i think labels really need to take a business approach and do some marketing into how muach of each format they could sell.

i would love to see labels keeping on a limited run of vinyl aswell as selling cd singles and digital formats.

[SlavikSvensk]

Incidentally djing isnt the art of playing bits of plastic consecutively using turntables, its just the art of playing other people's music. Format has nothing to do with it.

though, to be fair, it's traditionally the art of playing other people's music using vinyl records ;)

seriously though...i see this is whole debate as similar to the acoustic guitar/electric guitar debates from way back when. vinyl's dominance is almost certainly going to wane, though it will also remain important for DJing for a long time to come.

the interesting question, in my opinion, is: are DJs manipulating mp3s or other digital media bring something to the table that vinyl DJs don't already, or is it just a cheaper, smaller storage medium and that's it? and what's being lost in return?

[rhythmtech]

Incidentally djing isnt the art of playing bits of plastic consecutively using turntables, its just the art of playing other people's music. Format has nothing to do with it.

though, to be fair, it's traditionally the art of playing other people's music using vinyl records ;)

seriously though...i see this is whole debate as similar to the acoustic guitar/electric guitar debates from way back when. vinyl's dominance is almost certainly going to wane, though it will also remain important for DJing for a long time to come.

the interesting question, in my opinion, is: are DJs manipulating mp3s or other digital media bring something to the table that vinyl DJs don't already, or is it just a cheaper, smaller storage medium and that's it? and what's being lost in return?

i dont think we bring something "else" to the table.. i think we bring somethin "differant". cant say about the storage space or quality loss. i refuse to use mp3. wav only for me and if i'm givin an mp3 i'll always do a bit of work on it get it sounding that little bit brighter, add a bit of bite. then render as wav.

[SlavikSvensk]

i am asking if there is something substantively different that people feel they can bring by using mp3s, wavs or whatever, or if they are trying to achieve the same thing people do with vinyl, only in a cheaper and more space-economical way...and if there is, what that "something different" is...

in this case i'm talking about spinning, and excluding ableton sets, which are a whole 'nuther set of plusses and minuses

[rhythmtech]

i think the something differant is the ability to manipulate the tracks that you're playing on the fly. extend breakdowns etc. djs have been able to re-sample on certain mixers for quite a number of years now but the sample capacity was never that great. with ableton you can record in as you play and instantly have a 4 bar loop or a 32 bar loop. i also think the effects manipulation is a lot better with ableton and a controller. no using two knobs to scroll through params etc. i've played a set with the dex running through the input on ableton and using its effects and it was great. the only problem i had was beatmatching. i had to be constantly hands on with the vinyl, which was grand if i was bringing the vinyl into the mix but on the way out again (with full eq) i had to have a very very slight touch as it was much more obvious sounding..

[audioinjection]

i love vinyl and will most likely buy it till they stop making it......but of course i'll use cd's and mp3's, especially to be playing my own tracks

[djshiva]

i had to throw in my three cents here.

i am definitely sitting with one foot in both camps. i have djed vinyl for 11 years now, and will never stop. that said, i am working now on implementing ableton into my dj sets as well. anything that makes it more fun, is fine by me.

i could never go all ableton, because quite frankly, there is a certain physicality to djing with 2 or 3 decks and mixer that i just can't get with just a laptop. flipping thru the box and seeing that orange label that i hadn't planned on playing, but that would work perfectly...cueing up the record in just a few seconds and dropping it right into the mix, cutting the fader back and forth and then just dropping the shit...ahhh...i can't give that up. no way. never.

but i can certainly see the fun of augmenting that with custom edits, my own tracks, and fun little surprises that i could never pull off with only vinyl. how bout throwing in a timbaland bassline over some laidback luke jack? i can do that! dropping DnB basslines at half speed under kraftwerk? yup. my favorite thing lately...M.I.A. with electro...now THAT is freakin' fun!

i still think the luddites have some catching up to do, and the laptop only sets are missing something basic and physical. so i opted to use both. absolutes are for mathematicians and full-time internet debaters...let's play some tunes and rock the dancefloor, cuz at the end of the day, the only thing the punters care about is whether the music is pumpin' and they are breakin' a sweat! ;)

[Jay Pace]

Final scatch all the way.
All the joys of mixing vinyl with none of the associated hassles.

If only tractor had VST support I would wet myself. Or if you could integrate ableton

ARE YOU LISTENING NATIVE INSTRUMENTS?

[djshiva]

jay: have you delved into ms pinky, and the ms pinky pluggo?

i have been looking into that, but until they have a better interface, i will have to wait. but to be able to spin vinyl from inside ableton, and make use of all of the effects? ooooh fun!

[acidsaturation]

Any new technology can be a double edged sword in the way that it makes things easier and hence makes it easier for people with less talent to look like they have it.

Maybe we need to just be more discerning and accept that what ever way people play there will always be some who cheat, but there will always be more who innovate. Vinyl's nice to own, but if something else does the job as well/better/differently then why not...?

Maybe we need to ditch the idea of the DJ and be performers: Which ever way we perform?

[rhythmtech]

though, to be fair, it's traditionally the art of playing other people's music using vinyl records ;)




to be fair its traditionally old tapes cut and spliced and played back through tape machines.. although to be fair its gramaphone 78's.. although to be fair its lads wearin grass skirts hammerin away at bongos.. although to be fair.. blah blah you get were i'm goin?

[aggressor]

I have only ever used Technics turntables
never used cds/pcs/effects/software

just strait up black stuff --

not to say I would not try anything else , just never had the choice while I was Djing. Was lucky to get a mixer with a working EQ tbh

[Analog.1]

I personally believe a DJ should just play and mix other peoples music just like a DJ is supposed to rather than trying to become a producer by using software like ableton. If a tune is meant to have some kind of effect on it the producer would of created the tune that way in the first place, you dont need some kid coming along applying low/hi cut filters on top of tunes because he thinks it sounds cool. I want a DJ to play and mix records 100% untouched so I know what that im hearing is what the producer wants us to be hearing not what some kid with a laptop is making us hear.

[Jay Pace]

I personally believe a DJ should just play and mix other peoples music just like a DJ is supposed to rather than trying to become a producer by using software like ableton. If a tune is meant to have some kind of effect on it the producer would of created the tune that way in the first place, you dont need some kid coming along applying low/hi cut filters on top of tunes because he thinks it sounds cool. I want a DJ to play and mix records 100% untouched so I know what that im hearing is what the producer wants us to be hearing not what some kid with a laptop is making us hear.

Do you object to two records being played at the same time?

C'mon mate, thats a bit limiting. In the right hands FX and tricks make ordinary tunes sparkle, and amazing tunes knock everyone for six. At the same time I've seen djs waste amazing tunes by not knowing what to do with them. All a question of who's behind the decks/laptop/gramaphone/abacus etc

[TechMouse]

I want a DJ to play and mix records 100% untouched so I know what that im hearing is what the producer wants us to be hearing not what some kid with a laptop is making us hear.
That's a pretty narrow vision of music you've got there mate.

Suprised you don't object to a DJ "distorting the artist's true vision of his / her track" by mixing other tunes into the beginning and end.

Might as well sit at home and listen to the original tracks through headphones.

IMHO the great thing about Techno (more so than any other form of electronic music) is that it thrives on being ****ed with. The greatest joy I have as a DJ is finding two records which sit together so well that the whole becomes greater than the sum of it's parts, and you get them so locked together you can start going mental on the crossfader and it still sounds tight.

3 decks? Bring it on.

I think Ableton is just an extension of this, you can really go to town deconstructing stuff and putting it back together with your own slant.

As a producer, nothing would please me more than someone pulling apart one of my tracks and putting it together - with other stuff - to dancefloor devastating effect.

[Mindful]

I personally believe a DJ should just play and mix other peoples music just like a DJ is supposed to rather than trying to become a producer by using software like ableton. If a tune is meant to have some kind of effect on it the producer would of created the tune that way in the first place, you dont need some kid coming along applying low/hi cut filters on top of tunes because he thinks it sounds cool. I want a DJ to play and mix records 100% untouched so I know what that im hearing is what the producer wants us to be hearing not what some kid with a laptop is making us hear.

Yeah I once had a dj freind who tried to be creative so we had to chop off his hands and burn his minds eye.

was great fun

[oldbugger]

:lol:

right..from now on we have tune after tune with a pause between each one.
what a great idea that is....i'm gonna try it :lol:

its amazing how you hear ideas like that and cant understand why you didnt think of it yoursef. this will be the next big thing for sure.

anyone wanna but a djm...i wont be needeing it. infact i only need one deck too.

1 technics 1210mk2 and a djm600 for sale.

offers around £500 please

[dirty_bass]

:lol:

right..from now on we have tune after tune with a pause between each one.


Works for Jah Shaka, and his parties homp n hump more than any techno bash I`ve been to.

[massplanck]

Betamax video is da Phuture.

[Mindful]

with remote controlls with wires

[Aratron]

i much prefer vinyl.
i hate cds and mps totally soulless and the quality of music is shit.
i also hate ableton - computer controlled djing or what eva - i think that will just destroy the scene.
i think the technology companies should make soem records players which are just brilliant but not as heavy so they can be made more portable - or maybe im just stuck in the past.

[dirty_bass]

Hang on, ableton is destroying the scene.
I thought it was minimal this week?
Oh hang on, no, I think this week it`s fergies job to destroy the scene.

[rhythmtech]

i much prefer vinyl.
i hate cds and mps totally soulless and the quality of music is shit.
i also hate ableton - computer controlled djing or what eva - i think that will just destroy the scene.
i think the technology companies should make soem records players which are just brilliant but not as heavy so they can be made more portable - or maybe im just stuck in the past.

yup... well stuck in the past :lol:

[Symmetric]

the interesting question, in my opinion, is: are DJs manipulating mp3s or other digital media bring something to the table that vinyl DJs don't already, or is it just a cheaper, smaller storage medium and that's it? and what's being lost in return?

What is being lost in the use of MP3's is sound quality. Why as a producer and an audio engineer would you want all the hard work you've put into making your music wasted, as the final product is a compressed piece of crap. Why spend the money on good gear? Why bother? MP3's sound like crap, they hurt my ears, especially on a big system.
I beg every Final Scratch dj I know to play wav's, and I think as storage space gets bigger, we might get there soon. I'm not opposed to any uncompressed digital format, but please use the best quality files you can!!

[Jay Pace]

Utter shite mate.

MP3s can be far far superior to vinyl in terms of audio fidelity.
Low bitrate mp3s sound poor, high bitrate are indistinguishable from WAVs.

Why as a producer and an audio engineer would you want your music to be carved into a piece of plastic and played and amplified through a vibrating stylus?

320kbps is as good as a WAV, smaller and easier to store and indentify with tags.
WAV is the way it will ultimately go (hopefully 24bit96khz as well), but in the mean time upwards of 256kbps mp3s are fine and dandy.

[rhythmtech]

the interesting question, in my opinion, is: are DJs manipulating mp3s or other digital media bring something to the table that vinyl DJs don't already, or is it just a cheaper, smaller storage medium and that's it? and what's being lost in return?

What is being lost in the use of MP3's is sound quality. Why as a producer and an audio engineer would you want all the hard work you've put into making your music wasted, as the final product is a compressed piece of crap. Why spend the money on good gear? Why bother? MP3's sound like crap, they hurt my ears, especially on a big system.
I beg every Final Scratch dj I know to play wav's, and I think as storage space gets bigger, we might get there soon. I'm not opposed to any uncompressed digital format, but please use the best quality files you can!!

as jay said.. absolute bullshit. a 320kps mp3 would be no differant on a rig than a wav file. i play wavs but thats because ableton uses up memory converting mp3 to wavs in a temp folder...

[Symmetric]

Are you guys serious?
Listen, really listen to an MP3, even at 320kbps, and the original .wav on a GOOD system or headphones.
There's a difference. Compressed files are inferior to uncompressed. You can hear it in the hi-hats. Everything above 4KHz is brittle, even with the best codecs.
I'm not the only person on this forum with good enough ears to discern the difference, am I?
With today's technology, 16-bit 44.1KHz should be considered inferior, but unfortunately the consumer standard has gone backwards in quality. In what other industry has that been the case? Your DVD player in your living room has 24-bit 192KHz D/A converters, but you're playing shitty 320kbps files for your fans? If the music is the centerpiece of the experience, treat it as such. Don't skimp on quality for the sake of convenience.

[rhythmtech]

Are you guys serious?
Listen, really listen to an MP3, even at 320kbps, and the original .wav on a GOOD system or headphones.
There's a difference. Compressed files are inferior to uncompressed. You can hear it in the hi-hats. Everything above 4KHz is brittle, even with the best codecs.
I'm not the only person on this forum with good enough ears to discern the difference, am I?
With today's technology, 16-bit 44.1KHz should be considered inferior, but unfortunately the consumer standard has gone backwards in quality. In what other industry has that been the case? Your DVD player in your living room has 24-bit 192KHz D/A converters, but you're playing shitty 320kbps files for your fans? If the music is the centerpiece of the experience, treat it as such. Don't skimp on quality for the sake of convenience.

like i already said. i play wavs.

but on a large system there is NO discernable differance.. anyone that says otherwise has obviously got steve austins ears. anyway its all irrelevant anyway because no two tunes end up sounding the same. be it vinyl, wav, mps, ogg whatever.. theres always gonna be tonel differances. for eg: i tend to go for a lot of gain on my hats, gives em a crunch. some people like them clean. so theres already a differance before the file is encoded.

[Jay Pace]

Are you guys serious?
Listen, really listen to an MP3, even at 320kbps, and the original .wav on a GOOD system or headphones.
There's a difference. Compressed files are inferior to uncompressed. You can hear it in the hi-hats. Everything above 4KHz is brittle, even with the best codecs.
I'm not the only person on this forum with good enough ears to discern the difference, am I?

If, and this is extremely unlikely on any system, you could hear a discernible difference between a 320kbps Mp3 and a WAV you would be unable to tell which was "better".

And even if you have steve austin ears, you are in the 0.000001% of the population who can hear these frequencies. Or even care. Most people happily listen to shite. You have to train you ear to even notice the difference.

[Miromiric]

Are you guys serious?
Listen, really listen to an MP3, even at 320kbps, and the original .wav on a GOOD system or headphones.
There's a difference. Compressed files are inferior to uncompressed. You can hear it in the hi-hats. Everything above 4KHz is brittle, even with the best codecs.
I'm not the only person on this forum with good enough ears to discern the difference, am I?
With today's technology, 16-bit 44.1KHz should be considered inferior, but unfortunately the consumer standard has gone backwards in quality. In what other industry has that been the case? Your DVD player in your living room has 24-bit 192KHz D/A converters, but you're playing shitty 320kbps files for your fans? If the music is the centerpiece of the experience, treat it as such. Don't skimp on quality for the sake of convenience.

oh dear.

[Aratron]

i much prefer vinyl.
i hate cds and mps totally soulless and the quality of music is shit.
i also hate ableton - computer controlled djing or what eva - i think that will just destroy the scene.
i think the technology companies should make soem records players which are just brilliant but not as heavy so they can be made more portable - or maybe im just stuck in the past.

yup... well stuck in the past :lol:PISS OFF

[robin m]

anyway its all irrelevant anyway because no two tunes end up sounding the same.

I agree - and even if there is a tiny difference in the very top end if you stand in front of your rig and strain your ears for it (which I'm still not at all convinced of) you're going to be putting it through a mixer and playing other music on top of it and EQing it and generally f*cking with it anyway - that's kind of the whole point isn't it? So what if it only sounds 99.9% identical to the uncompressed wav - that's surely utterly immaterial when you've got something else's bassline underneath it and some looped sample running over the top... or maybe I'm missing the whole point of mixing. :eh:

[dirty_bass]

erm, using that argument you could say why bother producing to any standard at all.
And then things descend into a mush of badly produced tripe.
Kinda like....things......are.......now
oh

I`ll get my coat.

[Symmetric]

I suppose you're right that most people don't care because everyone's walking around with their Ipods listening to MP3's.
I'll just keep jamming my earplugs in further whenever a Final Scratch dj takes the helm, or head to the second room or take a breather!

[dirty_bass]

erm
final scratch DJ`s can use wavs you know

[robin m]

erm, using that argument you could say why bother producing to any standard at all.

Weeeeeell, I suppose that's the case if you take that argument and extrapolate it to the extreme - I'm not saying that though, I'm just saying there's a time and a place to worry about exact faithful reproduction of the original sound and it's not when you're mixing tunes together through a rig. 99% quality is good enough in that situation surely?

Obviously quality is essential in the studio and every effort should be made to maximise it elsewhere... but I don't think it's realistic or important to expect absolute perfection on a rig, you should have other priorities at that point - like playing the right tunes at the right time and doing a good job mixing them together.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with your opinions on production standards but I think perfect sound quality belongs in the studio, and good quality compromise belongs on a rig.

[rhythmtech]

erm
final scratch DJ`s can use wavs you know

;) ohh can they? sorry steve, what with the way every goes on around here, i thought the only option for us "digital djs" was 96kps mp3. :lol:

must be where we're all going wrong. thank fvck we know that now.. was that printed in the ableton manual?

[dirty_bass]

yes mate, it`s about time you stopped using them 8 bit samples and got with the prgram

[dirty_bass]

Don't get me wrong, I agree with your opinions on production standards but I think perfect sound quality belongs in the studio, and good quality compromise belongs on a rig.

And there lies the problem.
Shit club soundsystems run by idiots and limited to ****.
I`ve been in the sound system game for ages, and it`s depressing that a statement like that has to be.
We are talking about sound, and it`s not hard to have a average soundsystem sounding sweet, but a lot of the time it breaks down as soon as the rig is turned on.
Bad management of the corssovers and eq, terrible standrdised limiting and DJ`s who just crank it into the red.
why compromise?

[Aratron]

to rhythmtech. sorry for being rude. if you have yourself an mps/ableton set i could listen too , maybe i could have a more infromed opinion?

[rhythmtech]

just workin on a new promo at the moment. i'll pm you a megaupload link later tonight or tommorow if you want.

[Aratron]

just workin on a new promo at the moment. i'll pm you a megaupload link later tonight or tommorow if you want.

nice one. i need good music dudes

[rhythmtech]

just one last thought for any of you that think ableton users are killing the scene.

myself
atrickDSP
davethedrummer
DDR
dirtybass
lowtek
jenson
zoid
distek

^^ this is a list of ableton users off the top of my head. i've been working my ass of for the techno scene, be it promotion, engineering or gigging for the last 11 years and some of the above have been doing it even longer!

is anyone gonna say that we're killing a scene we give so much to?

[Jay Pace]

Please also add to the list Richie Hawtin, British Murder Boys & Paul Mac

Ableton is just another tool - formidable in the right hands, useless in the wrong ones.

The scene is built on more than round, flat bits of plastic.

[djshiva]

it's always SOMETHING killing scene, and yet...it still keeps going...

fancy that! ;)

[nihilist]

dean rodell uses ableton live allso

dirty bass wrote,,
Bad management of the crossovers and eq, terrible standrdised limiting and DJ`s who just crank it into the red.

too true matey :mad:

[Roxy Trip]

just one last thought for any of you that think ableton users are killing the scene.

myself
atrickDSP
davethedrummer
DDR
dirtybass
lowtek
jenson
zoid
distek

^^ this is a list of ableton users off the top of my head. i've been working my ass of for the techno scene, be it promotion, engineering or gigging for the last 11 years and some of the above have been doing it even longer!

is anyone gonna say that we're killing a scene we give so much to?


not killing the scene i dont think. bringing something new to it maybe. but you cant expect everyone to jump up and down and embrace ableton as the new dj tool. when alot people like myself , like to see people on decks in the clubs and parties.
though i have heard some good sets on ableton and ive got used to it a bit more in last couple of months i guess

[Jay Pace]

Ableton acceptance process:

Shock
Horror
Hatred
Grudging acceptance
Neutrality
Advocacy

You think people sang the praises of playing two turntables together AT THE SAME TIME to start with? People need time to adjust.

[TechMouse]

Further to the Ableton discussion: More sterling work from my good friend Gaz (http://www.blackoutaudio.co.uk/portal/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=49496)

[module]

i used to be hardcore vinyl & hardware..

then i thought 'why?' and played with software..

i moved on. as should 'techno' and all those who propose to support it. its, after all, a shortening of the word 'technology' which is about advancement.

never bought an MP3. prob never will. with Ableton, i can now play MY SHIT all the time & no longer pass out £6 or £8 for someone elses work :)

i still love 1210s & vinyl, but what i can do with Ableton alone is amkin me push forward. and THATS what its about imo

[module]

as for 'MP3 shit quality' as DB says, check the pa's of most clubs.. average at best.

ive seen some 'professional' djs ram mixers into the red, push the compressor too far, then pull me about 'that shit pa you made me play on' i mean, ffs, dont u know red is generally a bad sign ?

and i use WAV every time. i dont have a lappy, but given what i used to take out for hardware live sets, a pc is a doddle.

the whole argument is pointless imo. whats more important ? the means or the end ?

[nihilist]

good points there module the end is the most important by far as for the red issue red allways means DANGER

[Jay Pace]

I'll run a pioneer 600 at 3 red bars (4db) because it drives the a little signal and makes it sound punchy.
No more than that though...

[Xavi]

nothing beats the vinyl .. IMO .. but that doesnt mean i dont use CD-j or ableton , just new ways to enhance u'r performance if u ask me .. i wouldnt exclude vinyl in any case ..
+vinyl is the only medium where u can ACTUALY touch the sound ,,, and most reliable ..

[Corinthiano]

if labels sell all their trakcs in mp3 format, i think vynil may die...
For now, there´s only a few good tracks available on mp3. The best tracks are still on vynil, so plastic still survive.

[Xavi]

For now, there´s only a few good tracks available on mp3.

yeah.. LEGALY

[rhythmtech]

not true.. theres loadsa good stuff available legally.. just a case of finding it.

[Scott Kemix]

never bought an MP3. prob never will. with Ableton, i can now play MY SHIT all the time & no longer pass out £6 or £8 for someone elses work

but people wont necesarilly book you for your music, unless they like it, thats where a crowd maybe want to hear a variety of music and not just your sound all night. This is i think where vinyl comes into play. But if they dont incorporate vinyl then they will just mix it in ableton, not much skill involved there at all or on a cdj. Support the vinyl!

[Scott Kemix]

the majority of people i have seen use ableton, use it just to mix tracks anyway. There is no creativity there. To me this is not live.

[Jay Pace]

There is something a little clinical about ableton....

But I saw BMB on it a while back, and they were pulling off stuff you couldn't hope to achieve using vinyl. Dubstep over techno with loops and moving into old school LFO tracks etc etc.

If you are using ableton to do dull A-B-A-B stuff its pretty dull, but then you are hardly pushing it. If you do push it you can get incredible results.

[rhythmtech]

but whats the point in doing it fully live scott? as you already said people wanna hear differant music. they wanna hear the big tunes! thats what gets them going. the perfect ableton set for me is one that incorporates elements of a live set and a dj set. i've (finally) got mine together where i play my own tracks live and throw in other peoples tracks aswell.. and to be honest scott, theres just as much skill involved in using ableton as there is using vinyl, you just gotta luck at it from a differant perspective. i personally find vinyl too easy and not enough of a challange, but thats just a personal thing.

[Scott Kemix]

There is something a little clinical about ableton....

But I saw BMB on it a while back, and they were pulling off stuff you couldn't hope to achieve using vinyl. Dubstep over techno with loops and moving into old school LFO tracks etc etc.

If you are using ableton to do dull A-B-A-B stuff its pretty dull, but then you are hardly pushing it. If you do push it you can get incredible results.

totally agree there, i have seen some good sets with ableton, but lately seen alot of crap, mixing tracks etc. One thing, i dont under estimate ableton capabilities one bit

[Scott Kemix]

but whats the point in doing it fully live scott? as you already said people wanna hear differant music. they wanna hear the big tunes! thats what gets them going. the perfect ableton set for me is one that incorporates elements of a live set and a dj set. i've (finally) got mine together where i play my own tracks live and throw in other peoples tracks aswell.. and to be honest scott, theres just as much skill involved in using ableton as there is using vinyl, you just gotta luck at it from a differant perspective. i personally find vinyl too easy and not enough of a challange, but thats just a personal thing.

not a prob i see where u are coming from, the thing is you can simply sync a track in ableton with no probs at all, as opposed to mixing 2 records you dont get this. It would just be great to see people using ableton to its full capabilities

[rhythmtech]

[quote=rhythmtech] It would just be great to see people using ableton to its full capabilities

totally agree there, but the way i see it, and i've stated already, there are lazy sets everywhere - vinyl, tracktor, ableton - everywhere.

i just think some people are attacking a great piece of software (not you scott) rather than the people that are goin about it the lazy way.

[Scott Kemix]

i am just used to seeing live sets in the past, using hardware mostly, people having to push themselves by constantly moving around tweeking everything in sight. As an artists i think this showed skill, timing, expression etc. I dont see to see this anymore

[Scott Kemix]

[quote=rhythmtech] It would just be great to see people using ableton to its full capabilities

totally agree there, but the way i see it, and i've stated already, there are lazy sets everywhere - vinyl, tracktor, ableton - everywhere.

i just think some people are attacking a great piece of software (not you scott) rather than the people that are goin about it the lazy way.

ye man hit the nail on the head there!

[djshiva]

i gotta add that, having done several ableton sets (dubstep mostly) in the last month, the nice thing is that i am approaching my vinyl in an entirely new way. if it spurs creativity, then i am down with it. it really alters the way you look at records and how you can use them...

[djfilthmonger]

I prefree the old ones and twos. the manually approach. but then again i would always be up to learn ableton.
funnly enuff i seen dave the drummer up in dublin back in jan. he was meant to do a liveset. he started with turntables and then started to move on to the live equip. after a short while he just pulled down the laptop moniter and went back to the turntables and absolutly belted out...
I suppose a dj r producer just use what there comfortable with. . records are still be used even do tapes came then cds,mp3s and so on.

[djfilthmonger]

just to add its not really which is better to use but what the end result is. How u use it .how adapt.. .

[rhythmtech]

I prefree the old ones and twos. the manually approach. but then again i would always be up to learn ableton.
funnly enuff i seen dave the drummer up in dublin back in jan. he was meant to do a liveset. he started with turntables and then started to move on to the live equip. after a short while he just pulled down the laptop moniter and went back to the turntables and absolutly belted out...
I suppose a dj r producer just use what there comfortable with. . records are still be used even do tapes came then cds,mp3s and so on.

that was due to technical problems he was having. we booked him for a liveset but unfortunatly there was a hiccup with the soundcard he was using.

[Fusion]

i will stick with vinyl as long as possible

even if i have to ride my bicyle across the pond with floaters attached

i agree that if i were to switch it would be too mp3 and a laptop

i just have a hard time with the "virtual song"

i can't get past the element of the physical "thing"

[crime]

Hang on, ableton is destroying the scene.
I thought it was minimal this week?
Oh hang on, no, I think this week it`s fergies job to destroy the scene.

I think it's dumb arguments on internet forums that's killing the scene, such as whether you're going to use a hoover or a dyson to clean the floor.. Mop vs Vileda supermop anyone? Cafetiere vs Perculator? Ford vs Vauxhall? or we could go for my old favourite, Amstrad vs Bush.... :s

[Miromiric]

i will stick with vinyl as long as possible

even if i have to ride my bicyle across the pond with floaters attached

i agree that if i were to switch it would be too mp3 and a laptop

i just have a hard time with the "virtual song"

i can't get past the element of the physical "thing"


funilly enough, those "physical "thangs"" were "virtual songs" one step earlier.

[Komplex]

as long as there are titties it doesnt really matter now does it?

[jk_scowling]

I think i'll keep buying vinyl as long as I can get the records I want on that format. Having said that , I did my first live set on ableton recently and really enjoyed using that. Not sure I'd use it for djing myself though, maybe because I can't be arsed to copy all my vinyl onto my computer... boring.

[djvitamind]

Yeah...I never thought I would make the switch...but I did...a couple years ago.

Actually I sold my turntables almost 10 years ago...I was djing so much back then the last thing I wanted to do when I got home was play records. I am starting to sell my vinyl here and there...more so cause I am sick of moving 10,000 records when I move.

There is a huge convenient factor for me. I mean being able to download a track from your hotel room right before You are about to play...well thats kinda nice.

I have had my laptop crap out on me a couple times...and that sucks...plus have heard djs play and all of a sudden there is no sound...let me tell you that is the longest rebooting time you will ever have to wait for.

Prices for releases are so cheap...almost too cheap.

As a record label owner...there are good and bad points. Vinyl is slowing down so bad. I have stopped all vinyl productions for Colorecordings. Watts filed for bankruptcy here in the US. They owed labels is excess of $150,000. That will hurt any independent label.

iTunes I think set the standard price. .99 is too low...its tough to turn over a profit unless you are selling a shit load of releases.

One thing the digital age is lacking is the whole feeling of holding it in your hands. The last releases I have signed have been digital only...and it just isnt as cool feeling. Sure you release is everywhere...but its not the same when you cant frame it up and put it on your wall.

D

[rhythmtech]

but its not the same when you cant frame it up and put it on your wall.

D

as much as im 100% digital these days.. ^^this statement is very very true and i hope that all my future releases will be available in both formats.

[Miromiric]

it is true for techno, which is kinda sad&dull music and to get any excitement from it, you have to hold it in your hands. it is not true when it comes to good music, that you just want to listen to.

[rhythmtech]

not at all.. i've had an indie album released back when i was in a band and im a lot happier having a physical copy of it as a reminder of what i've done.

[dirty_bass]

I think it's dumb arguments on internet forums that's killing the scene, such as whether you're going to use a hoover or a dyson to clean the floor.. Mop vs Vileda supermop anyone? Cafetiere vs Perculator? Ford vs Vauxhall? or we could go for my old favourite, Amstrad vs Bush.... :s

It all amounts to

What is better
Climp or Clomp?

"My opinion is better"
"Actually, my opinion is better"

[StoQ]

I'm vinyl junkie and believe vinyl will survive and become an exclusive tool for fans of plastic.... but defo future is digital. i think there will be much bigger steps forward into techno.

the future could be for a 3d sound producers. could u imagine clubs where sound is flowing in 5.1 , 7.1 x.1?? totally space trip and thats what techno's about. unfortunatly its only possible for digital format

[Delinquent Dialect]

I'm vinyl junkie and believe vinyl will survive and become an exclusive tool for fans of plastic.... but defo future is digital. i think there will be much bigger steps forward into techno.

the future could be for a 3d sound producers. could u imagine clubs where sound is flowing in 5.1 , 7.1 x.1?? totally space trip and thats what techno's about. unfortunatly its only possible for digital format

theres already music in 5.1 surround sound, of the top of my head 'Tipper' for instance, he even did an album called 'surrounded'..and I know there are others. and yes they have preformed live in 5.1 ;)

[Delinquent Dialect]

the majority of people i have seen use ableton, use it just to mix tracks anyway. There is no creativity there. To me this is not live.

check out our live set, I posted on the forum someplace...anyway..we combince 3 laptops, plus outboard gear, old school effects, compressors, 808, machinedrum, sometimes the odd 101 or 303

and no we dont 'just hit play' lol and yes there are mistakes and no its not perfect, because we allow chaos to happen.

I have a pet peave about guys who use ableton and just mix their already mastered finished products...thats fuking gay, instead i like to treat it like a studio session, a jam...but with the knowledge that there are people listening so you've got to make it interesting.

[Delinquent Dialect]

here ya go wart an all...I see its been really popular lol, lots of hits lol

http://www.blackoutaudio.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=43521

[rhythmtech]

I have a pet peave about guys who use ableton and just mix their already mastered finished products...thats fuking gay, instead i like to treat it like a studio session, a jam...but with the knowledge that there are people listening so you've got to make it interesting.

y?i think its showing a lot of courage to play your own stuff out.. its not always easy to do.

also not everyone has the knowledge to do a live set.. its a complicated thing and takes a lot of time. i know from my own experience that its not just a case of throwing loops from your trax into ableton.. i've been working on mine a long time now and i still play full tracks along side it as im not 100% happy with it yet.

[MARK ANXIOUS]

y?i think its showing a lot of courage to play your own stuff out.. its not always easy to do.

also not everyone has the knowledge to do a live set.. its a complicated thing and takes a lot of time. i know from my own experience that its not just a case of throwing loops from your trax into ableton.. i've been working on mine a long time now and i still play full tracks along side it as im not 100% happy with it yet.

i agree with every word of that :rockin:

[davethedrummer]

roland v drums and ableton
thats where i'm going

[davethedrummer]

and i'm going to grow some extra arms in a laboratory

[dan the acid man]

or you could buy some extra arms, im always hearing about those dodgy arms deals going off in the news lately:ohdear:

[koda]

yeh ill use ableton to throw midi to hardware but thats about it, im pretty unhappy about where ableton has taken djing and production in general, i cant appreciate a dj set played on ableton. its as good as an ipod...

[TechMouse]

or you could buy some extra arms, im always hearing about those dodgy arms deals going off in the news lately:ohdear:
FFS Dan...

:dans taxi:

[force]

roland v drums and ableton
thats where i'm going

seriously???

i've got an old simmons kit and i always fancied the idea of triggering loops from it through an alesis d4!

[dan the acid man]

FFS Dan...

:dans taxi:

you've got to let me off with this one, it's nearly christmas :ohdear:

[Miromiric]

yeh ill use ableton to throw midi to hardware but thats about it, im pretty unhappy about where ableton has taken djing and production in general, i cant appreciate a dj set played on ableton. its as good as an ipod...

exactly! and one other thing, don't you hate all the music that's made with software these days. it all sounds so software. hardware or burst!:;

[Ritzi Lee]

and i'm going to grow some extra arms in a laboratory

the first dj robot arms are already in development.
in the near future we can play with 4 arms, just by using a brain sensor for extra control.

[loopdon]

not true.. theres loadsa good stuff available legally.. just a case of finding it.

yep. if you scout around different forums and i would want to add

http://vivaliebtdichnicht.de/

head over to 'mytracks' and check what's on offer. then if you like sth. you could always pm the producer and ask if it's ok to play stuff out.

rob acid posts there as well and when it comes to quality techno then that's a place you shouldn't miss out on, imo. not to mention boa's production forums...

if that ain't as exclusive as a 500 copy whitelable i dunno :)

[the_psychologist]

I know psytrance isn't well liked here, but this guy made a video that details his Live techniques. it's a pretty interesting watch. when used well, a tiny laptop rig running Live allows for possibilities that no deck can touch. most people don't go nearly this far, however.

http://www.dailymotion.com/cosm/video/xy0m5_tom-cosm-on-live-electronic-music

[davethedrummer]

seriously???

i've got an old simmons kit and i always fancied the idea of triggering loops from it through an alesis d4!

nice try
no cigar

[davethedrummer]

the first dj robot arms are already in development.
in the near future we can play with 4 arms, just by using a brain sensor for extra control.

but by the time that happens
we'll all be plugging our heads directly into our sequencers anyway.

[force]

nice try
no cigar

I was serious!! :mrmyagi:

[katya]

i am just used to seeing live sets in the past, using hardware mostly, people having to push themselves by constantly moving around tweeking everything in sight. As an artists i think this showed skill, timing, expression etc. I dont see to see this anymore


Yes! I always think that - cannot witness the technical artistry anymore... although... I do have ableton (like most on this board, i'm sure) - so, am willingly contradicting myself.

[tonyc2002]

sonic art... pressure pads, d-beams, 1.21 gigawatts!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

....or probaly more realistically traktor and final scratch for me personally :cheese: altho ime still thinking maybe vj-ing is gonna take more of a prominent role in the future.

media jockeys anybody?

[...Dave...]

sonic art... pressure pads, d-beams, 1.21 gigawatts!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

....or probaly more realistically traktor and final scratch for me personally :cheese: altho ime still thinking maybe vj-ing is gonna take more of a prominent role in the future.

media jockeys anybody?

its called ableton live 6:cool:

[tonyc2002]

its called ableton live 6:cool:

i love ableton, i truly do but version 6's video facilities are quite limited at the moment. if they intergrated visual effects like the stuff in final cut, or motion that could be syncd up rythmically to the audio then that would be something special....

still, early days init!

[JimmySomerville]

For the final scratch users.....


Is it possible using v1.6 or v1.5.... or indeed FS 2 to sync it with ableton? To allow you to drop loops over the top of tracks?

It would be easy to play the full lot in ableton but we're looking to do something with 2 decks and ableton running loops over the top.

[TechMouse]

For the final scratch users.....


Is it possible using v1.6 or v1.5.... or indeed FS 2 to sync it with ableton? To allow you to drop loops over the top of tracks?

It would be easy to play the full lot in ableton but we're looking to do something with 2 decks and ableton running loops over the top.
Erm...

If you're using Final Scratch (on decks) how the hell do you expect it to sync itself?

You can just run both through a mixer and beatmatch by ear, but unless you have some kind of mechanical interface between Ableton and the pitch slider on your decks (insane but conceivable) there's not much point in attempting to connect the two.

[christian wagner]

I prefere Vinyl, but i love using my laptop and ableton with a controller, dont like CD's, as convenient as they are, there not reliable. plus CD decks are now made with loads of pointless features.

[loopdon]

For the final scratch users.....


Is it possible using v1.6 or v1.5.... or indeed FS 2 to sync it with ableton? To allow you to drop loops over the top of tracks?

It would be easy to play the full lot in ableton but we're looking to do something with 2 decks and ableton running loops over the top.


Some stuff in that direction can be done via the Ms Pinky Vinyls.

http://www.mspinky.com/jpgs/Pinky_Pluggo_Live.jpg

"Ms Pinky therefore provides a VST/AudioUnit/RTAS plugin version of her vinyl-controlled audio file player/scratcher, which we call "Pinky Pluggo". This exciting little plugin allows users of VST, Audio Unit, and RTAS-compatible host programs running under both OSX and WinXP to seamlessly integrate Ms Pinky into their music production software sessions... for the purposes of studio recording, or for live performance."

Read it up here:

http://www.mspinky.com/WreckedSystem_Pluggo.html

[the_psychologist]

exactly! and one other thing, don't you hate all the music that's made with software these days. it all sounds so software. hardware or burst!:;

I always find this sort of response funny. It's basically, "The new stuff sounds different than the old stuff!".

It's just another sound to get used to. Plus, stuff done in Ableton will sound as good as just about anything if done right. It just opens the door for people who could never afford all the different gear and software. I mean, you could use human-played instrument samples for everything and it would sound more organic than a real 909, no? People who produce the entire track using software intruments are the ones you're on about. I mean shiiit, producers of "real" music constantly slag electronic music using your same argument.

Plus, software production is ever evolving, and I'm confident that it will get to the point where differences vs. will be strictly imagined. It'lll be like the whole WAV vs. 320 rate MP3 argument that has never reached any real conclusion. The oldschoolers will argue that they can hear the difference, while almost no one really can.

[T]

well call me a diplomat but all the formats have their place. Live performance is unique, and so is dj'ing.

For me, I think Dj'ing is particularly suited to techno/electronic music, as it really adds the human element to the music, manipulating tunes on the fly and hearing a dj present the tunes in their own way is always interesting.

Personally I love my vinyl collection but have laid off buying much for a couple of years now, it has become a pain to store if nothing else....so it's cd's and computer music for my everyday listening of tunes.

shouldn't be a format wars, formats should compliment each other and offer a variety of ways of playing your music....cd's, mp3's, vinyl....all have their advantages......so all formats can be used together rather than one format becoming defunct.

[jon connor]

i use all 3 .

decks awsome why ? you can be more agressive and more or less beat the crap outta your dance floor , love it always will.

cd j awsome agin for acuracy brilliant for effects tricks sampling etc but however you cant be agressive with them you have to treat them like a good women and be gentle and delicate ahhhh! bless.......

abelton great for perfoming your own music in a sort of semi live set anyone playing abelton with a set full of other peoples tracks dont waste my time pack your stuff and piss off outta this club.

there ya go all 3 are quality in there own way but all but 1 have a down side , which leaves me with my answer decks will always rule . but technology moves on and some of us have to bite our bottom tongue and get on with it aye!

[module]

this came to me a while back..

see all the 'MP3 is crap.. you can tell with the frequency blah blah...' well, in all the time i played records, not one person ever bitched about the crappy cheap detroit pressings i used to play.. the badly cut Trax records made from recycled vinyl.. never had a punter mention it..

yet everyone has been up in arms bout the quality of digital media... 'thats a laptop.. i can tell the difference..'

aye right ;)

[RDR]

this came to me a while back..

see all the 'MP3 is crap.. you can tell with the frequency blah blah...' well, in all the time i played records, not one person ever bitched about the crappy cheap detroit pressings i used to play.. the badly cut Trax records made from recycled vinyl.. never had a punter mention it..

yet everyone has been up in arms bout the quality of digital media... 'thats a laptop.. i can tell the difference..'

aye right ;)

Bang on.

[dirty_bass]

Is there even an issue any more?
Dave Clark made some comment about this in a recent interview that was surprisingly astute.

[Aratron]

all i can say is that i can definitely see the difference between a mix recorded from vinyl and one from using some computer program.

your only fooling yourselves.

[dan the acid man]

all i can say is that i can definitely see the difference between a mix recorded from vinyl and one from using some computer program.

your only fooling yourselves.

that might be more to do with how the set was recorded and what file type the mix is compressed to.

Evrytime i've seen an ableton set at a party or a club, the sound quality is better.

anyway, this belongs in the debate at the top, i'll move it

[Aratron]

that might be more to do with how the set was recorded and what file type the mix is compressed to.

Evrytime i've seen an ableton set at a party or a club, the sound quality is better.

anyway, this belongs in the debate at the top, i'll move it

i have heard one decent ableton set and that was by oldbugger at creative culture last christmas
i was full of flu and it still knocked my socks off.

[dan the acid man]

i thought you was on about sound quality

[dirty_bass]

Whenever I play PA`s people are always surprised by the clarity, and the presence, as well as the bass.

But then I have a larger frequency range to play with over vinyls restrictions.
And I`m not having to deal with all the top end distortion and....
blah blah

vinyl is a medium we got used to, and it had many restrictions, but we coped because it was easy to handle.

Most vinyl comes from DAT masters anyway, so it was digital at some stage.
Do we even need to be talking about this in the foul year of our lord 2007?

I thought everyone had all growed up now.

[Little_Fella!]

Two Thousand and bloody Seven!!

Where the hell is Judge Dredd, ABC Warriors et al.... eh!!?

The world needs an Excession to kick its bleedin' scientific arse into gear...

Come on, hurry up, I'm not getting any younger here!!:briggin:

[the_psychologist]

The debate rages on all fronts... Still.

I'm another former vinyl addict who used 1200s for 7 years or so, then figured out that I could buy a little iBook, soundcard, and Traktor and things got way easier. I could just plug into the house mixer and manually beatmatch, EQ, chop, etc..

But that got boring, and it came time to evolve. Now I'm in the midst of learning Live and it has already given me the nudge I needed to start producing tunes. It's slow going right now, but every night I crack some new technique that ups the game.

I wonder if hardcore vinyl DJs consider the fact that NOT learning Live is actually holding them and the scene back? The transition from Live DJ to Live producer to Live live act is seamless, and it can only help bring new music into the world.

For the acid fans, try out Audiorealism Bassline 2. Run that thing through a saturator, distortion, reverb, etc. and listen to it wail. I know I wouldn't be trying my hand at Acid if I had to buy a 303. Too expensive and complex for me.

It does hurt, though. I have a heap of really good vinyl that I'm still selling, and it's slow going. I'm of the mind to mark everything down to $10 each and just sell what I can.

Times move on, and we can only choose to keep up with them or fall behind. It's too bad more labels didn't see the MP3 wave coming. The writing had been on the wall for ages.

[TripleB]

haha i got one for ya:)

i love records so much and i dont want them to fade away 4 eva:)
and i dont think a lot of you do to!
about 3/4yr ago i got the chance to mix on cd decks i was wel buzZin coz i cud mix a tune iv made at home and bang it out to the ppl in the clubs. all good
i did think thay was made just 4 ppl like me to have that chance and mix ya unreleased tunes out there. it was ace:)

now im gutted records r goin out coz the feal of them and the buzZ you get from mixin records is ace!
cd decks 4 me r 2 ezy to beat match and has took the fun out of beat matching / the hole mixin thing. - do u no what i meen?

love live tho:) only when its your music you make, not in to ppl that buy mp3s then say thay r mixin live but its all matched 4 them on ableton! thats shit:)

Times r moving on, so y not have all things out there:)

hehe - keep records - thats what i say:)

[T]

Well I don't think it's one format over and above an other, they all have their place! I like to see a dj tear and it up with vinyl, but adding final scratch or cd's adds versatility eg you play yer own trax etc, but a live set / ableton gives new possibilities for sound manipulation.

Also, mp3's are great for the net, vinyl releases often add an artistic element to a release with the artwork etc....and then there's the subtle differences in sound of the various formats.

The more formats available the better!

[RDR]

The more available formats the better?

Not for the manufacturers thats for sure, for us? Im not so sure either. I love vinyl and i always have - i may not in the future though.

Here is a little report on DRM that has SOME bearing in all of this.

http://weblogs.jupiterresearch.com/analysts/mulligan/archives/2007/08/umg_join_the_dr.html

Jupiter research are a MAJOR player when it comes to industry analysis BTW.

[snooch]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5dCMz4gKLI

[RDR]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5dCMz4gKLI


What a wanker.

[DannyBlack]

What a wanker.


No, a Guru.








i jest. but vinyl is better than everything else. Ableton=cop-out


*now stand back and watch the fireworks*

[RDR]

No, a Guru.








i jest. but vinyl is better than everything else. Ableton=cop-out


*now stand back and watch the fireworks*

Where do you work?

[RDR]

Ableotn cop out?

Right im calling your boss at work and telling him you're naffing around on the net

:laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :ohdear: :ohdear: :ohdear: :ohdear:

Waterford in ireland!


Your for it now fella!:cheese: :cheese: :cheese: :cheese: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

[DannyBlack]

:laughing: im buggered now!

[Craig_Lea]

Ableton=cop-out

*now stand back and watch the fireworks*

Because it makes it so much easier, I think you've got to justify the technology.
If you use it to do something that would be impossible to do with vinyl, or even CD's, then I think that totally validates its use.

[DannyBlack]

im not an ableton user myself, tell the truth i had my first real go this weekend, twas a giggle. i think, fair f**ks to anyone that takes a technologie and makes it their own. no one thing is better than the other, its about the artist that uses it.

[TechMouse]

im not an ableton user myself, tell the truth i had my first real go this weekend, twas a giggle. i think, fair f**ks to anyone that takes a technologie and makes it their own. no one thing is better than the other, its about the artist that uses it.

Hoo-****ing-ray. Got there in the end. Kudos to Danny.

Can we close this thread now?

[RDR]

Hoo-****ing-ray. Got there in the end. Kudos to Danny.

Can we close this thread now?

no. :laughing: silly moderator :mrmyagi:

[DannyBlack]

no. :laughing: silly moderator :mrmyagi:


i know what you're upto, trying to get the last word innit. so stop it!

[lunatrick]

personally I'm going mac book pro and serrato scratch - cos I live in OZ now and just can't get the vinyl I want.....I still want the randomness of mixing records but I need to be able to download tunes......does anybody know what is the best final scratch type software around now?

[JamieBall]

Serato is the best.

Made more for turntablists than final scratch etc but it depends if that's what you're after I guess.

It's also by far the tightest and I've never had a crash - seen people nosedive on final scratch though.

Buy it.

[RDR]

Serato is the best.

Made more for turntablists than final scratch etc but it depends if that's what you're after I guess.

It's also by far the tightest and I've never had a crash - seen people nosedive on final scratch though.

Buy it.

Aye, its great for low speed motion.. FS falls on its arse when scratching compared to serato.

[Microdot]

does anyone have any concrete figures on the sale of vinyl etc, or anything concrete to suggest mp3 will take over vinyl...

i know it would be hard to nail down evidence like that but mabey someone here has some deeper insight into sales etc..???

I know people are gona say "stop worrying" just enjoy your vinyl etc, but id like to quench some fears :paranoid:

vinyl sales have dropped over 50% in the last 3 years or so.

[RDR]

Check out this from Gerd Leonhard

http://www.futureofmusicbook.com/music_marketing/index.html

its a big read, but well worth it. I dont guarantee you'll agree with it, but this is a speech he made at the recent AIM conference.

Keeping my eye on the ball here :;

[RDR]

vinyl sales have dropped over 50% in the last 3 years or so.

I think you need to qualify that a bit more jon. Do you mean Dance Vinyl sales?

From the BPI's site. It doesnt say about genre but clearly its about something other than techno... playing out with 7" records? :laughing: ive done it, but it wasnt much fun. lol:laughing:


Label support for physical singles

Sales of CD singles fell, but there was a further revival in seven inch vinyl; annual sales have increased from just over 200,000 units in 2000, to more than 1m units in 2006. 7” vinyl sales were up by 12.9% in the first half, with the White Stripes' Icky Thump the best seller.

[Microdot]

I think you need to qualify that a bit more jon. Do you mean Dance Vinyl sales?

From the BPI's site. It doesnt say about genre but clearly its about something other than techno... playing out with 7" records? :laughing: ive done it, but it wasnt much fun. lol:laughing:

sorry.
I meant House, Techno, Electro and Hip Hop vinyl sales have dropped by at least 50% over the last 3 or 4 years.
couldn't really say about the other genres, don't really know any producers who do DnB, Hardhouse etc

I've mixed with 7" singles before, not much fun and the sound quality is usually shite too.
nowdays I don't use vinyl at all.
for no other reason than I like to pick fights with arrogant cocks who shoot off at the mouth but don't know what the fcuk they're talking about (as tocsin can no doubt confirm). i.e. vinyl purists.

[rhythmtech]

for no other reason than I like to pick fights with arrogant cocks who shoot off at the mouth but don't know what the fcuk they're talking about

:lol: :lol: :lol: nice one jon!

[josephjobling]

well i used to say vinal (bit of a purist) i love my 1210,s and my vinal collection - they are a 90's icon and until 6 months ago i would have beaten any one up who said anything was better than vinal. however i have discovered djing on ableton with wav file from beatport. apart from the fact that the waves seem to have the tops cut off (damn limiters) it has freed me up to do so much more in the way of creative mixing.
so in short vinal is way cooler ableton free's me up to be more creative - i think the croud would prefer the latter x

[Darkmode]

At the end of the day it dosen't matter what format you use as long as the tunes you are playing are good!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!

[josephjobling]

very true darkmode very true. good mixing doesn't hurt either

[rhythmtech]

apart from the fact that the waves seem to have the tops cut off (damn limiters) it has freed me up to do so much more in the way of creative mixing.
so in short vinal is way cooler ableton free's me up to be more creative - i think the croud would prefer the latter x


they're exactly the same waves that are used to make the vinyl release.

[Microdot]

vinyl purists are full of shit.

[massplanck]

vinyl purists are full of shit.

Why? Theres no such thing as a vinyl purist, just people with a preference. Some folks just like the fact that you can touch, smell, see & hear the product. 4 senses involved for me.

I stopped buying records for ages there. Pricked around with mp3s in abelton etc but didnt enjoy it. Now im back buying again. Not a purist but I just love it. Nowt wrong with digital mixing & creativity but there is room for both. Thats why serato is great (but i dont own it or use it)

"Somebody was trying to tell me that CDs are better than vinyl because they don't have any surface noise. I said, "Listen, mate, life has surface noise."

John Peel

[Microdot]

anyone who thinks format is more important than music is basically wrong.

[TechMouse]

"Somebody was trying to tell me that CDs are better than vinyl because they don't have any surface noise. I said, "Listen, mate, life has surface noise."

John Peel
Life has lots of things that I wouldn't like on my records.

Poo for example.

[massplanck]

anyone who thinks format is more important than music is basically wrong.

Thats true. But they do sound different.. not better or worse (unless its low q mp3). I just love the warmth of vinyl.. surely thats ok?

I have really bad tinnitus and digital usually has lots of highs which hurt my already ****ed ears.

[Sunil]

vinyl purists

How about vinyl lovers? That's what I am anyway.
I dunno, the vinyl purist thing makes any of us that support and play vinyl, sound like religious freaks or hardline vegans or something (no offence to either by the way).
For me I have had no reason to change - if it ain't broke, don't fix it etc.


anyone who thinks format is more important than music is basically wrong.

Well, that might be true of a miniscule proportion of people that buy music - and I don't think you would find many of them populating techno forums like BOA or the likes.

[rhythmtech]

vinyl lovers are not a problem. nothing wrong with loving something so beautiful.

vinyl purists on the other hand...

[Microdot]

vinyl lovers are not a problem. nothing wrong with loving something so beautiful.

vinyl purists on the other hand...

word.

anyone who tries to tell other people how to play or perform their music is basically a dick. same as anyone who tags the word "cheating" to anything to do with music.

about 20 years or so ago, a brand new type of music no one had ever heard before came along that most people referred to as "acid house".
there were alot of dicks back then that said that house producers were cheating cause they didn't know how to play an instrument but could still make a record.
times change, people don't.

[Sunil]

word.

anyone who tries to tell other people how to play or perform their music is basically a dick.

I don't fully agree.
If I see someone play off Ableton and it's not half as good as that person when they were playing decks, why shouldn't I be honest and tell them the vinyl sets were better?

[rhythmtech]

I don't fully agree.
If I see someone play off Ableton and it's not half as good as that person when they were playing decks, why shouldn't I be honest and tell them the vinyl sets were better?

but thats not the same thing at all. thats just giving your opinion on their perticular sets..

same goes the opposite way - if someones digital sets are better than their vinyl then say it to them..

but its a world of differance telling someone that what they play isnt valid because of the format.

[DannyBlack]

im doing a mix as we speak on Acid Pro 4.0 and it really aint that easy, trying to get everything mapped perfectly is bloody hard!

[rhythmtech]

cheat






















































:tongue: :lol:

[massplanck]

but its a world of differance telling someone that what they play isnt valid because of the format.

I dunno who says that nowadays unless they are using shit quality mp3s which have been badly ripped from someones dirty vinyl collection. ;)
Only thing I have ever said in relation to some digital mixes is that the bass is lacking and the highs are too sharp. Which can be fixed if the DJ bother his ass or cant be left alone if he doesnt give a **** about what I say ;)

Anyway. As sunil said. If its broke dont fix it. I enjoy buying vinyls and playing them as they tend to sound better than a random collection of songs, at varying bitrates ripped from soulseek and mixed in abelton. You see. If its a load of highquality MP3S mixed on abelton with a decent soundcard there is no problem for me (and for Sunil)

The way i see it in the 90s you could have shite djs but the sound coming off the record most likley gonna be prety good.
Now you have some shite djs not caring about the sound quality of what they play coming out of the onboard soundcard of a dell laptop (i have lots of experience of this). Thats were some of us get annoyed.

[Sunil]

same goes the opposite way - if someones digital sets are better than their vinyl then say it to them...

Yeah, but when is that ever the case? :)





but its a world of differance telling someone that what they play isnt valid because of the format.

Well yeah, that is a bit ridiculous alright. It's not even snobbery, it's just a bit silly really. I still like those people though, they mean well!

[massplanck]

Yeah, but when is that ever the case? :)


Rob Hall.

But even listening to his (amazing sets) online I still find the bass or oomph lacking and the highs to high. Maybe thats just me.

[rhythmtech]

Yeah, but when is that ever the case? :)


you've obviously not heard my attempts at playing vinyl lately :lol: :lol:

[Sunil]

Rob Hall.

But even listening to his (amazing sets) online I still find the bass or oomph lacking and the highs to high. Maybe thats just me.

Ok, there might be a few exceptions maybe, but not many!
I thought Rob was equally good if not better on decks, but yeah I agree that he is getting a good buzz going with his laptop alright.

[Sunil]

you've obviously not heard my attempts at playing vinyl lately :lol: :lol:

You're just out of practice, that's all :)

[massplanck]

Ok, there might be a few exceptions maybe, but not many!
I thought Rob was equally good if not better on decks, but yeah I agree that he is getting a good buzz going with his laptop alright.

Never heard him on decks. But his laptop sets are as much about selection (easier hunting down obscure stuff in the digital age?) as mixing I reckon. Missing the oomph I say. But still excellent stuff. I dont know of other who are as good, but you sure couldnt tell the difference with Dave Clarke since he started using the CDJs and Wavs\MP3s

Ive seen BMB at least three times banging it out on abelton and I dunno why I just dont like the sound coming from it. Their sets are good but again (maybe from nostalgia) is to fecking digtal\abelton sounding for me. I dunno why. Its lifeless sometimes. Then again others think their sets are the best out there,

[rhythmtech]

again its all how they prepare them

a lot of people just bang tracks and loops out with loads of fx without thinking bout the output sound from the master

a high quality analog modelling compressor and eq can make a world of differance.

[massplanck]

again its all how they prepare them

a lot of people just bang tracks and loops out with loads of fx without thinking bout the output sound from the master

a high quality analog modelling compressor and eq can make a world of differance.


yeah but thats the problem, alot of people arent thinking about the output sound of the mixer because before they didnt have to worry about it!

You dont need a high quality analog modelling compressor and external eq with a set of decks.

[rhythmtech]

You dont need a high quality analog modelling compressor and external eq with a set of decks.

which is exactly why some sets lack punch.

ableton is all to easy for every tom, dick & harry to just plug in and play - no understanding of how differant sounds work on differant systems.. but thats why the cream always rises.

we know this from vinyl too - sure, any joe soap can get a gig playing records, but he has to be good to get a second one.

im pretty sure that if my digital sets sounded flat and lacking oomph i probably wouldnt get 1/4 of the gigs that i do. but i make damn sure that i take the time to make sure they sound good.

[massplanck]

which is exactly why some sets lack punch.

ableton is all to easy for every tom, dick & harry to just plug in and play - no understanding of how differant sounds work on differant systems.. but thats why the cream always rises.

we know this from vinyl too - sure, any joe soap can get a gig playing records, but he has to be good to get a second one.

im pretty sure that if my digital sets sounded flat and lacking oomph i probably wouldnt get 1/4 of the gigs that i do.


I know that. You care about the sound. Its going through a proces of evolution at the moment. Its getting there.. but for me its not at the stage where every tom dick and harry can start digital djing and the *sound quality* is consistently savage.

Weve all had experience of shitty soundsystems. But now there seems to be the added worry of shitty sounding mp3s being pumped through a shitty system where as before you could at least be certain that the bits inbetween the trainwrecks were good quality! Aslo in the 90's you could be pretty sure that a release was mastered by someone who knew what they were doing, nowaday thats process is getting overlooked quite a bit with *some* digital releases. If you aint making the money of digital releases like you did on vinyl then you are gonna have to cut corners somewhere

One other thing about vinyl is the social aspect of it. I love going into a shop and chatting & meeting new people and talking face to face (not on the keyboard) about music. Seeing their facial expressions and shit. And its great when mates call around with bags of records and play music for each other. Its not the same if the all call up with laptops and nobody has a clue how to dj on the other persons setup (nevermind where their music can be found on the hardrive) and everyone spends more time ****ing with their own laptop then enjoying the communal hippy vinyl music buzz. ;)

[rhythmtech]

One other thing about vinyl is the social aspect of it. I love going into a shop and chatting & meeting new people and talking face to face (not on the keyboard) about music. Seeing their facial expressions and shit. And its great when mates call around with bags of records and play music for each other.

i still do that.. i just dont spend any money in the shop :lol: :lol:

nothing more fun than wasting sunil's time and then walking out empty handed.. even better if you make him reach up for the vinyls that are up high :lol:

[rhythmtech]

I know that. You care about the sound.

i think its also to do with playing my own tracks in wav format. if i was to play shitty low quality mp3s alongside them they would sound gash!

[massplanck]

i still do that.. i just dont spend any money in the shop :lol: :lol:

nothing more fun than wasting sunil's time and then walking out empty handed.. even better if you make him reach up for the vinyls that are up high :lol:

:laughing:

[massplanck]

i think its also to do with playing my own tracks in wav format. if i was to play shitty low quality mp3s alongside them they would sound gash!

WAV Purists are full of shit. ;)

[rhythmtech]

WAV Purists are full of shit. ;)

everything is shit for maxell 90 minute metal tapes with dolby NR..

although the 120 mins were cool they lacked the sound quality

[Microdot]

im doing a mix as we speak on Acid Pro 4.0 and it really aint that easy, trying to get everything mapped perfectly is bloody hard!

sack it off and do the mix in ableton

[rhythmtech]

danny's a bit too simple ableton.. he likes schranz init.

[massplanck]

Yeah Danny you need to get yourself a copy of Simpleton Live 7.0

:laughing:

[massplanck]

For the record a copy of Serato is on my list of thing to buy this year.

[Sunil]

nothing more fun than wasting sunil's time and then walking out empty handed.. even better if you make him reach up for the vinyls that are up high :lol:

You better hope our crocodiles are in good form next time you step into the shop! I'm not so sure though, we haven't ejected any 'food' down to them in about 3 weeks..

[djfilthmonger]

For the record a copy of Serato is on my list of thing to buy this year.

must get it my self .handy

[DannyBlack]

I have no decks, ****in grim. Ableton is easy, hence the reason Barry "Talagh" Murphy uses it.

Is it true that "DJing for dummies" comprises only of a copy of Ableton?

[rhythmtech]

Barry "Talagh" Murphy uses it.


1st of all its "tallaght"

2nd - i actually live about 30 minutes from tallaght.. so :tongue:



Is it true that "DJing for dummies" comprises only of a copy of Ableton?


yeah.. but what i use is called "djing for REAL dummies" - it has 25% added simplicity!

[rhythmtech]

I have no decks, ****in grim. Ableton is easy, hence the reason Barry "Talagh" Murphy uses it.

Is it true that "DJing for dummies" comprises only of a copy of Ableton?

ouch.. ill remember that next saturday week in cork. when im on stage and you're looking up wishing you were as cool as me..

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[DannyBlack]

:lol: :lol: f*ck off... sure would be nice to be hammering out some tunes, ah well, i'll stick to gazing up at you in awe.

Although, wait now....

Nope... I was going to do a youtube comparison of who is cooler, but there is significantly more people in yours...

hahahahahahaha!

[rhythmtech]

:lol: :lol: f*ck off... sure would be nice to be hammering out some tunes, ah well, i'll stick to gazing up at you in awe.

Although, wait now....

Nope... I was going to do a youtube comparison of who is cooler, but there is significantly more people in yours...

hahahahahahaha!
eh?

[DannyBlack]

who is cooler?

me: http://youtube.com/watch?v=-f73l9F6YGI

you: http://youtube.com/watch?v=wVX2oQTNYgE

[rhythmtech]

live at nuclear free zone in 414.. sound is pants though!!!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=9Uf2UOQTrbk
http://youtube.com/watch?v=RYhe9W7B0j0

[rhythmtech]

you: http://youtube.com/watch?v=wVX2oQTNYgE

:lol: :lol: :lol: look at zoid dancin!!!!! :lol: :lol:

[DannyBlack]

wicked looking club!!!

[massplanck]

i actually live about 30 minutes from tallaght.. so :tongue:


Neilstown?

:laughing:

[DannyBlack]

Bally Mun! :lol:

[massplanck]

barrymun. :laughing:

[DannyBlack]

:lol: The height of scumzville.

[rhythmtech]

yawn..

i wouldnt tell you where i live danny cause you'd only move your waterford caravan up beside me and try to sell me a carpet or a dag!

[DannyBlack]

Id try and finger you. Then sell you a gate that I had just pilfered from your neighbour. Bass.

[Kid Lego]

My ears are ****ed and i'm only 24, constant tinnitus and hi freq hearing loss in my right ear...dry, So I decided to take steps against this horrible affliction, cus I'm NOT going to lets this wank ringing in my ears get between me and the music I love...

So...

I bought Ableton a few months ago because its easier to protect my ears when playing out... I DO miss vinyl and respect dj's who keep it real...BUT...using software and MP3's is very convenient...Instead of buying a record with three shit tracks and one stonker I can be really selective about tune purchases with worring about cost.

I will always love vinyl, the feel of it (and the sleeve art especially) but before you diss dj software at least give it a whirl...its warped my fokin head and I don't worry so much about my ears.

[the_psychologist]

Ableton Live opens up so many possibilities that most DJs just can't cope with it. As stated manymany times, it only removes the "challenge" of beatmatching, and you can even simulate that by changing the quantize settings and assigning a controller to the clip scrubbers.

Seriously, I just don't get this idea that Live does everything for you. You still need to have a good track selection, know how to transition the tracks well, how to EQ, etc..

If you're an acid fan, imagine having Bassline params mapped to a MIDI controller. You can have a virtual 303 wailing over 4 tracks all at once. There are no limits beyond imagination, while most vinyl jocks are limited to the house setup of 2 decks and a mixer.

But this is all tired by now. Some people just take longer to come around.

[clubsynthetic]

Its all about getting a more intricate hands on approach imo. Limiting one's self to any software for djing (and i suppose live too) is sacrilege. why?

anyway by the end of it all we'll be controlling some form of serato or ableton with oor brains without even having to lift a finger.

cavemen style bongos ftw

[Igneous]

Embracing & using new technology is what techno is all about for me & the core principle of this style of music. I'll use any 'format/bit of kit' to push noize onto the dance floor.

I have't read the whole 13 pages so I don't no if the following area has been covered.

The only issue I have with the die off of vinyl is the die off of local record shops that support local scenes. My experience of record shops is that you could find out where the local parties were going on, meet other DJs who were into the same sound as you, put your flyers in there for your night, etc, etc, etc.

With buying tunes online you don't seem to get so much partisipation in the scene & I worry that music scenes will die off as a result of online selling.

[the_psychologist]

Embracing & using new technology is what techno is all about for me & the core principle of this style of music. I'll use any 'format/bit of kit' to push noize onto the dance floor.

I have't read the whole 13 pages so I don't no if the following area has been covered.

The only issue I have with the die off of vinyl is the die off of local record shops that support local scenes. My experience of record shops is that you could find out where the local parties were going on, meet other DJs who were into the same sound as you, put your flyers in there for your night, etc, etc, etc.

With buying tunes online you don't seem to get so much partisipation in the scene & I worry that music scenes will die off as a result of online selling.

Yeah, that's a very good point. As we move ever closer to the "futuristic" vision of autonomous, secluded life in our connected homes, we really lose a sense of community. This has definitely happened in dance music, due partly to the death of vinyl shops.

Unfortunately, vinyl by nature is limiting for a DJ. So people who embrace technology will clearly move beyond it. I still have hundreds of records, but some venues don't even have turntables now. I play some gigs where they don't even have CD decks.

Formats like Laserdisc and vinyl were doomed from the start due to the natural progression of technology. Things get smaller and smaller, they don't stay the same size. End of.

The biggest problem was that many MANY artists and labels ignored the coming tide, both mainstream and indie. They had years to get a digital system in place, but chose to march forward with blinders on.

[TomFoolery]

Yeah, that's a very good point. As we move ever closer to the "futuristic" vision of autonomous, secluded life in our connected homes, we really lose a sense of community. This has definitely happened in dance music, due partly to the death of vinyl shops.

Unfortunately, vinyl by nature is limiting for a DJ. So people who embrace technology will clearly move beyond it. I still have hundreds of records, but some venues don't even have turntables now. I play some gigs where they don't even have CD decks.

Formats like Laserdisc and vinyl were doomed from the start due to the natural progression of technology. Things get smaller and smaller, they don't stay the same size. End of.

The biggest problem was that many MANY artists and labels ignored the coming tide, both mainstream and indie. They had years to get a digital system in place, but chose to march forward with blinders on.

I think you hit the nail on the head here. TECHNO is short for TECHNOLOGICAL. Its essence is its ability to advance with new technology, hence why all electronically created music was called techno back in the day. Personally i love vinyl and i am saddened to think that it might die but the point is that techno should advance with new technology and eventually artists won't be releasing vinyls (due to the limitations). So software like ableton is the way forward. That being said, it doesn't mean that other formats are wrong or bad, they're just outdated. There will come a time where people who still spin vinyls will be refered to as classical djs. I definately agree that theres something special about having a vinyl of your favourite tune in your hands which you cannot recreate with mp3 and I'm gonna keep building my collection, for the sake of having a collection of vinyl.

By the by check out this badboi (for those of you who like to combine cd/mp3 with ableton)-----> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izLK7_9X1DA

[TomFoolery]

Also i agree with Igneous about the whole shopping experiance. I hate that shops generally are being consumed by the ever growing internet market. Its such a better experiance to be in a record shop surrounded by fellow music lovers and vinyls.

[the_psychologist]

The thing about digital files is that you can develop the same collector mentality to some degree. My goal with my archived tunes is to have a WAV, FLAC, or 320 lame-encoded MP3 of each, with proper tags, key, BPM, etc., and I will not settle for anything less. Once you finally have that file, it actually does mean a bit more than nothing.

To give you an example, I have been in love with this Microwave Prince tune called "Solar Eclipse" for years, and, when I went digital, I hunted the CD single down, bought it, and ripped the track myself in the best quality. It sounds so much better than old, worn vinyl, and, because it's so clean, it sits comfortably in the mix next to tracks that are much newer.

I personally dream of the day when a single HD can hold all my favorite books, music, films, etc. because then they will always be on hand. As it is now, I have them divided between several locations, and it's rare to get back at them. Technology will lead to great simplification in some areas, one being the organization of our media.

[jon connor]

vynyl you can beast and be agressive , cd j you have to be delicate and treat like your wife , abelton well loosers come to mind except for the guys who are using it to play there own stuff , they are exempt

[Jay Pace]

hehe I've come round to ableton, simply because I couldn't lug all my vinyl with me when I left UK. I couldn't take my decks either, so final scratch wasn't an option so all you're left with is traktor or ableton.

Most people aren't using ableton to its potential yet, but then people didn't exactly use turntables to their potential when they first came on the scene. They'd been around for decades before someone had the magic idea of using two of them AT THE SAME TIME. 30 years later people are still pushing it...

There's a lot of lazy abelton djs out there being boring, but I think the tech itsself is great, opened up djing to parts of the world who were never going to get a chance otherwise.

For me thats the best thing about digital - it made music accessible to people who would never have had heard it otherwise. All well and good demanding that people should buy a treasured copy of a limited 500 press of vinyl, but so long as that mentality exists techno is going to be limited to the distribution of the vinyl it comes on.

Telling some kid earning 70 pesos a day he needs to save up for 45 years to buy decks, then spend a months salary buying a few records a month seems a bit dumb, and I'd rather there were people making and playing music on all corners of the planet instead of just the lucky priviledged few...

[DannyBlack]

I recently started dominating Ableton. I like it.