Lazy assed ableton Dj performances

[RDR]

Seen a few of these in the last year...

NOT keen AT ALL... seen em from people who should know better too..

They sounded o.k. but watching em stood there with a mouse and a beer bottle in hand wasnt pretty.

Especially seen as they were advertised as a DJ.

discuss.

[RDR]

Just so as im not 100% negative on this i understand that most of the punters dont give a monkeys as long as they have a good time, and in all fairness most of the sets i heard were standard but good.

BUT IMHO thats the problem.. ableton is capable of SO much more, yet the majority of them just used the beat repeat and the filterz. no chopping up of loops etc...

:(

[dan the acid man]

i see your point, in that if you're using ableton, then you should do more with it than that.

but maybe these dj's just prefer mp3's now, and find ableton is the best for using them in a set, but they don't want to do to much with it, if that makes sense

[Miromiric]

They sounded o.k. but watching em stood there with a mouse and a beer bottle in hand wasnt pretty.


yeah, i agree. they should at least be dancing around, giving high-fives to the crowd.

[JamieBall]

I've never really seen anyone fully rock it on Ableton, and I've seen loads of folk use it. Sets done on it always seem (at the best) un-dynamic, flat and predictable imo.

There's definitely a lot more could be done with it to make an interesting set. Though maybe it just comes down to the fact that I don't like a lot of middle of the road techno so therefore don't enjoy it being repeated ad nauseum ?

[holotropik]

hmmm....I could see this coming.
There are arguments, as you mentioned dodgy, being "as long as it rocks who cares" being the most obvious. I dont agree with this as I go to see an artist perform his/her art and skill the way a musician should.

But, we are talking about DJs here and they go by a different set of rules than most musicians do anyway. Its a tricky topic to discuss for me as I dont like peeps who are not offering musicianship when they perform to people and expect more respect for just standing there delivering a basic juke-box type set. Piss poor effort in my books, but to many it seems it dont matter none....??

Again, I can hear some already sayin, "Man! move with the times, its the future, get over it".....etc, etc, etc.

Doesnt cut it for me, sorry. I wanna see skill and art, not a jukebox :|

[rhythmtech]

i agree with you dodgy. i think its shocking. it gives the rest of us that actually use ableton properly a bad name.
i've seen one or two djs use it properly but for every one of us that puts the effort it there's probably 5/6 that will use 2 channels and cut in and out between tracks. i really dont understand y... i mean you've got as many tracks as you want really, the only thing stopping you is the limitations placed on you by your controller.. basically its just laziness.

[JamieBall]

Again, I can hear some already sayin, "Man! move with the times, its the future, get over it".....etc, etc, etc.

Doesnt cut it for me, sorry. I wanna see skill and art, not a jukebox :|

Damn straight.

So, the 'future' is gonna be filled with geeks standing around looking like they'd rather be watching star trek (or perhaps doing more ketamine) whilst occasionally pressing a mouse button....

NOT ON MY WATCH !

[holotropik]

i agree with you dodgy. i think its shocking. it gives the rest of us that actually use ableton properly a bad name.
i've seen one or two djs use it properly but for every one of us that puts the effort it there's probably 5/6 that will use 2 channels and cut in and out between tracks. i really dont understand y... i mean you've got as many tracks as you want really, the only thing stopping you is the limitations placed on you by your controller.. basically its just laziness.

Lack of talent is also the problem.

[JamieBall]

Indeed, who really cares if it's just coming out of 1 output as long as it ROCKS.

I don't.

Promoters, just don't book noobs or geeks.

Problem solved ;-)

[fatcollective]

i just started playing with ableton and this is for only one reason...to play my own stuff out! im just trying to suss out a few things at the mo, other than just mixing one track into the next, cause that is pretty easy to do i must say. i think im gonna start strippping my tracks down in to seperate parts i.e. kick, hats, ride, synth, loops etc and maybe add some outboard filters n stuff...gonna get my head stuck into it anyway, see what happens.

[holotropik]

I guess its not really different than traditional DJing when you play one track after another....only the Beat matching has been removed which also removes one skill element, albeit a major skill of the DJ.
Whats left then? the ability to make remixes, crafty transitions (EFX) and intelligent track selection (something that is also somewhat lacking from a lot of DJs these days).

The positive element is that a producer can play his own stuff out that night rather than have to get it pressed onto vinyl. Although the CDJ has become common in clubs now for that purpose too.

I dunno?? I am going around in circles in my head now....PLAY IT DONT FAKE IT!! nuff..

[acidsaturation]

I saw a guy at a party last year, he'd basically just lined up 10 tracks (as finished wavs) on a laptop and had a controller doing a bit of stuff with the filter and a few effects - like you would with a kaos pad over a mix, but without the mix. I mean, since when was that even near ****ing live...

The trouble is it sounded so tight (obviously, as it was all produced mastered lines up to perfection) and I'm thinking, the average kid on the dancefloor who knows jack shit is gonna start expecting all live sets to be that perfect - I don't wanna sound like bad workman blaming his tools, and obviously I've no excuse to not strive for perfection when I play, but there's no way in hell that taking hardware out, experimenting, mixing different loops and shit is gonna sound that perfect. Like any live act - even the best rockstar (or big commercial live dance act) on the planet isn't gonna sound like the CDs and that's part of the fun of live music. Hell, even lab4 who are constantly slated for how "live" they are or sound do, in my mind sound like are playing something, even if last time I saw them they spent more time signing tickets than twiddling knobs...

Just DONT. It's lazy and it's lying 'cos it shows you have a lack of talent (or can't be bothered to use it), but you want the kudos of "playing live" at the expense of people who really do.

[Conan]

I think that a Dj's performance is far weaker on ableton than it is on turntables. When you see a Dj working away behind the decks while he makes decisons on timing, tricks or tune selection, you can feel their intensity and can get into the performance alot easier. The presence of the laptop just creates a barrier between the Dj and the crowd which makes it harder for people to connect with the Dj. Technology has a way of sucking people in and I think you can feel that when a Dj is palying on Ableton .

My point is I'm not going to jive off looking at the glare of some lads notebook on their face as they stare intensely at the screen. I dont like it at all and although I appreciate that perhaps they are trying to embrace technology and attempt to move things forward I feel they are removing the human element of Djing. Which is a terrible idea.

There are no mistakes on Ableton nor is there any rawness, that alone is a no no for me. People make mistakes and don't get things right from time to time and I want to feel that reality while watching a Dj. It also makes it alot nicer when a Dj does get it right. I feel it's alot more REAL on turntables.

I do know however that for artists that want to play their own tunes out and mix other peoples tunes this is a god send and you have to respect that. There's also an arguement for "just listen to what's coming out of the speakers" but that holds no water with me because then people wouldn't face towards the DJ booth and wouldn't have their focus on the Dj or the performer, and that isnt going to happen.

I think if Dj's can use new technology to their advantage then that is great but if the Dj is solely using computers then that's not gona work for me.

[rhythmtech]

I saw a guy at a party last year, he'd basically just lined up 10 tracks (as finished wavs) on a laptop and had a controller doing a bit of stuff with the filter and a few effects - like you would with a kaos pad over a mix, but without the mix. I mean, since when was that even near **** live...

The trouble is it sounded so tight (obviously, as it was all produced mastered lines up to perfection) and I'm thinking, the average kid on the dancefloor who knows jack shit is gonna start expecting all live sets to be that perfect - I don't wanna sound like bad workman blaming his tools, and obviously I've no excuse to not strive for perfection when I play, but there's no way in hell that taking hardware out, experimenting, mixing different loops and shit is gonna sound that perfect. Like any live act - even the best rockstar (or big commercial live dance act) on the planet isn't gonna sound like the CDs and that's part of the fun of live music. Hell, even lab4 who are constantly slated for how "live" they are or sound do, in my mind sound like are playing something, even if last time I saw them they spent more time signing tickets than twiddling knobs...

Just DONT. It's lazy and it's lying 'cos it shows you have a lack of talent (or can't be bothered to use it), but you want the kudos of "playing live" at the expense of people who really do.

that is if you advertise it as "live"..

but if you only claim to be djing then throwin tracks down aint really a problem, is it. the only differance is, as holotropik stated, the removal of beatmatching (which we should all be able to do at this stage anyway).

people are too hung up on the idea that you HAVE to be beatmatching to be a dj.. since when? is there a law? i personally dont give a monkeys how a dj goes about doin things as long as he does them right. i've seen lads throw in tracks from their mp3 player - cut straight from vinyl into the mp3, no mixing. so what, crowd loved it, he loved it cause the crowd were loving his track..

people are getting way too precious about this whole djing thing.. wtf? its meant to be fun. who are any of us to question someone elses methods because they're differant? is it really a crime to want to do things your own way?

just thinkin about it, i dont think our scene is really dead at all.. i think its starting to rot from the inside.

go out, enjoy the music, let the dj do what he does and take you some place else.....

[acidsaturation]

But how is it even DJing if there's stuff all being done... surely you might as well play a CD and have a wank behind the decks..?? I'm not hung up on the DJ idea, but I think you should be able to respond to the crowd??

[rhythmtech]

you can respond to the crowd.. i use it all the time and i've never had 1 single complaint..

you know the only people who really care about all this are other djs.. says a lot really.

[rhythmtech]

just a question... everyone says you cant respond to a crowd.

someone please explain this to me? do you all think that ableton sets are presequenced? i have a choice of over 300 tracks when i play a dj set from ableton... theres nothing presequenced about it.

[drudles]

The trouble is it sounded so tight (obviously, as it was all produced mastered lines up to perfection) and I'm thinking, the average kid on the dancefloor who knows jack shit is gonna start expecting all live sets to be that perfect - I don't wanna sound like bad workman blaming his tools, and obviously I've no excuse to not strive for perfection when I play, but there's no way in hell that taking hardware out, experimenting, mixing different loops and shit is gonna sound that perfect. Like any live act - even the best rockstar (or big commercial live dance act) on the planet isn't gonna sound like the CDs and that's part of the fun of live music.

I actually find when you hear little glitches in a live set, it makes it more exciting, as you KNOW it's LIVE, and gets you more into it. Like you say though, may not be the same for the average kid, but then maybe they'll learn...



The presence of the laptop just creates a barrier between the Dj and the crowd which makes it harder for people to connect with the Dj. Technology has a way of sucking people in and I think you can feel that when a Dj is palying on Ableton .



This can be true alright, it really doesn't feel the same, even though the sound can be superb...

Overall I think Ableton can be used to great effect, with some DJs really breaking into new territory with regards to a DJ set, but as has been said, most people who use are just lazy and want to do the same as any other DJ (if not less), without having the hassle of beatmatching. It's something I would like to try, but then I'm not exactly pushed to because mixing records is just so much fun!! :newstyle: :techno:

[rhythmtech]

drudles, you or the lads saw me down @ r3volution didnt u?
my midi controller had been swiped on me, i was using an old keyboard controller with limited functions and it still rocked. not 1 single person said "oh no... thats wrong. ableton is the bad man." keyth and rob were goin mental!!!

i just dont understand all this b/s from certain corners. to be honest it sounds like either jealousy at not catching the opertunity early enough or else anger at having spent so much on vinyl and then have others come along with their cheap files...

(that last comment not directed at u btw drudles)

[robin m]

It's a good job we've got that sticky 'format wars' thread, otherwise we'd all be clogging up the forum with arguments about vinyl versus mp3s again ;)

Whether someone's using records or ableton, a set will always be more exciting if more effort is put in and flatter if it isn't (assuming the dj isn't trying to do stuff they're not good enough to pull off). If someone just presequences their stuff in ableton and stands there drinking a cuppa it'll come across to the dancefloor, but people can be just as lazy with vinyl - just mix the bare minimum over the very start and very end of tracks and stand there chatting to their mates the rest of the time... that's crap too.

A good DJ will always put in a lot of effort and react to the crowd and create a better atmosphere than one who doesn't whatever their medium, ableton just lowers the required amount of effort even further for someone who just wants to put in the bare minimum by removing the requirement to beatmatch. :nono:

[rhythmtech]

exacty.. now im bored of this and i never wanna read about it again.

[Conan]

i just dont understand all this b/s from certain corners. to be honest it sounds like either jealousy at not catching the opertunity early enough or else anger at having spent so much on vinyl and then have others come along with their cheap files...

It's not b/s it's just our opinion of Dj's using ableton while Djing. I really don't think it's jealousy either I mean that doesn't even make sense nor does us being angry. It's not a fashion trend I don't have to feel cutting edge to get value from the records that I own nor would I begrudge anybody else for buying cheaper tracks.
All I'm saying is that I don't feel that you get the same strenght from a performance by Dj on ableton than you do on turntables.

And if the music was good the people you were playing to would have loved it because the music was good and ultimatley that should be enough. But I feel the more human interaction is removed the less a performance resonates with me and thats my personal opinion not the letter of law.

I really don't agree with you saying the scene is rotting from within either I mean off course other Dj's are going to be more critical about other Dj's performances that's the way it is in all walks of life. All musicians I imagine would be the same.

I certainly don't mean to be attacking you because you use ableton Rhtyhmtech so there's no need to get so defensive I haven't heard you Djing yet so I'll save my opinions of your perfromances unitl I see them.

[Davin]

I think that a Dj's performance is far weaker on ableton than it is on turntables. When you see a Dj working away behind the decks while he makes decisons on timing, tricks or tune selection, you can feel their intensity and can get into the performance alot easier. The presence of the laptop just creates a barrier between the Dj and the crowd which makes it harder for people to connect with the Dj. Technology has a way of sucking people in and I think you can feel that when a Dj is palying on Ableton .

My point is I'm not going to jive off looking at the glare of some lads notebook on their face as they stare intensely at the screen. I dont like it at all and although I appreciate that perhaps they are trying to embrace technology and attempt to move things forward I feel they are removing the human element of Djing. Which is a terrible idea.

There are no mistakes on Ableton nor is there any rawness, that alone is a no no for me. People make mistakes and don't get things right from time to time and I want to feel that reality while watching a Dj. It also makes it alot nicer when a Dj does get it right. I feel it's alot more REAL on turntables.

I do know however that for artists that want to play their own tunes out and mix other peoples tunes this is a god send and you have to respect that. There's also an arguement for "just listen to what's coming out of the speakers" but that holds no water with me because then people wouldn't face towards the DJ booth and wouldn't have their focus on the Dj or the performer, and that isnt going to happen.

I think if Dj's can use new technology to their advantage then that is great but if the Dj is solely using computers then that's not gona work for me.

:clap:

I'd like to think that in the future I will be using 'Live' to perform my own productions as boring as it may be, however until that day I'm going to keep on trying to teach myself to integrate 'Live' into my dj set's!
Just like what Oliver Ho did when I seen him perform i Dublin!!
Throughout the night he kept interaction to the crowd as well as any dj would without a laptop, whilst still being able to give his set a little bit more than most other dj's!

Seemed like a winning formula :eyes:

[rhythmtech]

bah... you're all gay.

[Davin]

bah... you're all gay.

Ofcourse we ALL are :cheer:

[drudles]

drudles, you or the lads saw me down @ r3volution didnt u?
my midi controller had been swiped on me, i was using an old keyboard controller with limited functions and it still rocked. not 1 single person said "oh no... thats wrong. ableton is the bad man." keyth and rob were goin mental!!!

i just dont understand all this b/s from certain corners. to be honest it sounds like either jealousy at not catching the opertunity early enough or else anger at having spent so much on vinyl and then have others come along with their cheap files...

(that last comment not directed at u btw drudles)

Actually didn’t catch your set in the Vaults that night as I was over at the Surgeon (now he really USES Ableton to good effect) and Sims early in the night, and strolled down there later, but sure I was fallin round your gaf later on ;p :shock:

Don’t get me wrong, I have absolutely no problem with the use of Ableton and think it’s an extremely powerful tool, I can just see where Conan was coming from when he said that (from the punters point of view, I'd expect) it can be harder for the DJ to connect with the crowd from behind a laptop and controller than behind the decks, I don't know why, it just can be.

But nonetheless, I'm a firmly believe that what comes out of the speakers is what matters, end of. I don't go to a gig to drool over the DJ or watch how cool he looks. I go to listen to good music, hopefully played well, and have a good time, and that is ALL that matters. Nuff said.

[icb]

I think that a Dj's performance is far weaker on ableton than it is on turntables. When you see a Dj working away behind the decks while he makes decisons on timing, tricks or tune selection, you can feel their intensity and can get into the performance alot easier. The presence of the laptop just creates a barrier between the Dj and the crowd which makes it harder for people to connect with the Dj. Technology has a way of sucking people in and I think you can feel that when a Dj is palying on Ableton .

My point is I'm not going to jive off looking at the glare of some lads notebook on their face as they stare intensely at the screen. I dont like it at all and although I appreciate that perhaps they are trying to embrace technology and attempt to move things forward I feel they are removing the human element of Djing. Which is a terrible idea.

There are no mistakes on Ableton nor is there any rawness, that alone is a no no for me. People make mistakes and don't get things right from time to time and I want to feel that reality while watching a Dj. It also makes it alot nicer when a Dj does get it right. I feel it's alot more REAL on turntables.

I do know however that for artists that want to play their own tunes out and mix other peoples tunes this is a god send and you have to respect that. There's also an arguement for "just listen to what's coming out of the speakers" but that holds no water with me because then people wouldn't face towards the DJ booth and wouldn't have their focus on the Dj or the performer, and that isnt going to happen.

I think if Dj's can use new technology to their advantage then that is great but if the Dj is solely using computers then that's not gona work for me.

couldn`t agree more...

[acidsaturation]

just a question... everyone says you cant respond to a crowd.

someone please explain this to me? do you all think that ableton sets are presequenced? i have a choice of over 300 tracks when i play a dj set from ableton... theres nothing presequenced about it.

You missed my point there I think... I'm not talking about ableton sets where people are mixing tracks like a DJ or mixing sections or loops. That's using new technology to good effect (though if yr just mixing tracks I don't reckon that's live) and I'm all for it.

The point was this set i'm talking about, listening too it I was thinking wow, this is the best, tightest live set I've heard for ages, but when I saw what was actually on the laptop it was just 10 wavs, prearranged and all the guy was doing was playing with a few effects over the top. That ain't even djing imo, and can't really respond to anything, unless your thinking "oh, shall I send all this to a huge reverb now or not?"

The point I'm making is the technology's so open to abuse - it's not much more than miming!

[rhythmtech]

just a question... everyone says you cant respond to a crowd.

someone please explain this to me? do you all think that ableton sets are presequenced? i have a choice of over 300 tracks when i play a dj set from ableton... theres nothing presequenced about it.

You missed my point there I think... I'm not talking about ableton sets where people are mixing tracks like a DJ or mixing sections or loops. That's using new technology to good effect (though if yr just mixing tracks I don't reckon that's live) and I'm all for it.

The point was this set i'm talking about, listening too it I was thinking wow, this is the best, tightest live set I've heard for ages, but when I saw what was actually on the laptop it was just 10 wavs, prearranged and all the guy was doing was playing with a few effects over the top. That ain't even djing imo, and can't really respond to anything, unless your thinking "oh, shall I send all this to a huge reverb now or not?"

The point I'm making is the technology's so open to abuse - it's not much more than miming!

ok thats a little milly vanilli alright.. but thats how not to use it...

[dirty_bass]

What annoys me is these Ableton DJ sets get billed as "live pa" when it`s hardly that.
Little effort goes into teh preparation or performance, and it tars the rep of people who do do it properly.
When I play live, I`m running about 12 channels of audio plus vsti and fx, and sometimes, during a live pa, I get it wrong, cos I`m pushing myself.
It takes about a 2-3 weeks to prepare a pa which will only get played a couple of times.
It`s pretty annoying seeing these lazy plebs knocking a 2 track ableton mix together as a live performance, when I could tutor my girlfriend in ableton in a day, and get her to do more interesting 2 tracks sets than most of the ones I have heard.

If your gonna DJ with it, then I think as you have all that extra time from not having to beatmatch to work it.
Get loads of loop grooves, split down the full tracks used into sections so they can be resequnced etc.
Do some ****ing work.

[machina]

I have absolutely no problem with ableton sets - in fact I think they are ace - the amount that a talented musician can do with it is crazy and far surpasses anything that can be done on a couple of decks. The skill required is just a different type of skill - one of arrangement, construction, layering and the like, rather than beat matching, which let's face it, is hardly challenging. Look at what Surgeon or Luka does with ableton - it's clearly another level of musicianship and they are pushing the boundaries - hardly boring.

The people you are complaining about are just crap. it doesn't matter whether they are dj'ing or playing live or playing ableton sets - a crap set is a crap set.

machina

[stjohn]

when I could tutor my girlfriend in ableton in a day.

:) when telling my course panel that we'll be performing our short film live with audio and video, the audio using ableton, he said... 'my 7 year old could use ableton'
feckin eejit.


anyway, the case is for me, whether the act is billef as LIVE or not. ableton can be live. just more often than not....its just bog standard mixing.. tut tut. hopefully if i get some sort of a set together.. it'll be something along the lines of some hardware for particular sounds, along with a rake of loops ready to be fired in ableton

[holotropik]

I have absolutely no problem with ableton sets - in fact I think they are ace - the amount that a talented musician can do with it is crazy and far surpasses anything that can be done on a couple of decks. The skill required is just a different type of skill - one of arrangement, construction, layering and the like, rather than beat matching, which let's face it, is hardly challenging. Look at what Surgeon or Luka does with ableton - it's clearly another level of musicianship and they are pushing the boundaries - hardly boring.

The people you are complaining about are just crap. it doesn't matter whether they are dj'ing or playing live or playing ableton sets - a crap set is a crap set.

machina

yep, true is that....pushin boundaries.

[fatcollective]

I have absolutely no problem with ableton sets - in fact I think they are ace - the amount that a talented musician can do with it is crazy and far surpasses anything that can be done on a couple of decks. The skill required is just a different type of skill - one of arrangement, construction, layering and the like, rather than beat matching, which let's face it, is hardly challenging. Look at what Surgeon or Luka does with ableton - it's clearly another level of musicianship and they are pushing the boundaries - hardly boring.

The people you are complaining about are just crap. it doesn't matter whether they are dj'ing or playing live or playing ableton sets - a crap set is a crap set.

machina

spot on mate ;)

[The Divide]

I have absolutely no problem with ableton sets - in fact I think they are ace - the amount that a talented musician can do with it is crazy and far surpasses anything that can be done on a couple of decks. The skill required is just a different type of skill - one of arrangement, construction, layering and the like, rather than beat matching, which let's face it, is hardly challenging. Look at what Surgeon or Luka does with ableton - it's clearly another level of musicianship and they are pushing the boundaries - hardly boring.

The people you are complaining about are just crap. it doesn't matter whether they are dj'ing or playing live or playing ableton sets - a crap set is a crap set.

machina

I agree with this

Me personally, I think once ableton resolves the issues with the high controller latency it will go much further.

This kind of argument makes me think of what my old folks would say when I was a nipper. That been a DJ requires no skill, its just mixing other peoples music. Now we all know that’s wrong but you see why they say that, after coming from a generation where a live performance was played by bands you can see why they say this. I’m thinking this argument is no different. Both ways require skill (when done right) although ableton is much easier to simply pick up and use.

Me personally, if I had to choose between seeing a someone do a set on ableton or on the decks I would choose decks tho. But I think perhaps in 5-10 years time people may not have same opinion on it

I think associating laptop pa's with geeks could be risky business. Considering how cumputer literate the younger ones are. Shit having a myspace and msn account is just part of the norm for them now. I would hate to see this scene stuck in its way and alienating itself from new technology

"man my dad listens to techno music, but hes scared of technology and still uses those retarded turntable things"

Not my words but you see where I am coming from? :lol:

[holotropik]

hehehehe....indeed, sir. Good points.

[The Divide]

Could be bollocks like

[holotropik]

oh absolutely. I was just sayin this to me neighbours gardener...

[RDR]

What annoys me is these Ableton DJ sets get billed as "live pa" when it`s hardly that.
Little effort goes into teh preparation or performance, and it tars the rep of people who do do it properly.
When I play live, I`m running about 12 channels of audio plus vsti and fx, and sometimes, during a live pa, I get it wrong, cos I`m pushing myself.
It takes about a 2-3 weeks to prepare a pa which will only get played a couple of times.
It`s pretty annoying seeing these lazy plebs knocking a 2 track ableton mix together as a live performance, when I could tutor my girlfriend in ableton in a day, and get her to do more interesting 2 tracks sets than most of the ones I have heard.

If your gonna DJ with it, then I think as you have all that extra time from not having to beatmatch to work it.
Get loads of loop grooves, split down the full tracks used into sections so they can be resequnced etc.
Do some **** work.

F'kin A.

No excuse for lazyness as a performer.

[tekara]

LOL do people actually DJ with ableton as well? Man im REALLY out of the loop.

That is the funniest thing i have EVER heard. People should stop doing that shite.....

its like watching A-Trak, Invisible Skratch Picklez, or other turntabalist show up to a DMC battle and play a pre-recorded .wav file that is sequenced in ableton and just messing around with some 'autofiilters'........excellent!! :clap:

[The Divide]

Im never really that arsed with the dj/performer is doing, i rarely even look, im too busy enjoying the music and having a laugh. **** all that standing around trainspotting chin stroker business

I do look if theres some hardware involved tho

Im more interested whats coming out of the speakers, which I agree. It is better with 2 decks although a bit more limited

[davethedrummer]

ableton shmableton

[wenna]

when i picked up on djing years ago, it was a skill and it still is a skill now, true djing is a skill......... :techno:

[rhythmtech]

ableton shmableton

you're only sayin that cause you're old and afraid of new technology. if its not warm slippers you dont wanna know :lol:

[acidsaturation]

What annoys me is these Ableton DJ sets get billed as "live pa" when it`s hardly that.
Little effort goes into teh preparation or performance, and it tars the rep of people who do do it properly.

Totally. This is my Beef. Everytime I play I think "**** this, I'm not lugging any more ****ing flightcases about ever..." then when it's all set up and looking good and theres loads of stuff I can do with it it's just so satisfying.

When you can sound good with little effort (and remembering half the audience are gonna be caned out of their brains and not really bothered about whether the person playing is pushing their boundaries) it just spoils it for people who bother.

THat's a personal thing though, and I'm in now way saying "I'm better than you 'cos I use hardware and blah blah blah..." and like's been said there are loads of folk who use ableton or whatever creatively and really push it to make it something good.

But some remind me of what I was like when I first got hold of Acid. I was just "ok, why bother writing a loop 'cos I can just use this one, it's far easier..." and my music suffered.

I guess it's like any part of music though...

[holotropik]

What annoys me is these Ableton DJ sets get billed as "live pa" when it`s hardly that.
Little effort goes into teh preparation or performance, and it tars the rep of people who do do it properly.

Totally. This is my Beef. Everytime I play I think "**** this, I'm not lugging any more **** flightcases about ever..." then when it's all set up and looking good and theres loads of stuff I can do with it it's just so satisfying.

When you can sound good with little effort (and remembering half the audience are gonna be caned out of their brains and not really bothered about whether the person playing is pushing their boundaries) it just spoils it for people who bother.

THat's a personal thing though, and I'm in now way saying "I'm better than you 'cos I use hardware and blah blah blah..." and like's been said there are loads of folk who use ableton or whatever creatively and really push it to make it something good.

But some remind me of what I was like when I first got hold of Acid. I was just "ok, why bother writing a loop 'cos I can just use this one, it's far easier..." and my music suffered.

I guess it's like any part of music though...

Good wordz there. I have come to this same conclusion after thinkin about it all past day....

One thing you did mention that keeps coming up is the factor of muntedness on the dance-floor and how peeps dont really care much for the tunes an all. The just want something that is good to dance to and takes control of them or just something to dance to, anything?!

This control has to come from somewhere doesnt it? I mean if you just played a set that was just "hot" tracks in no specific order and just mixed them striaght up....would that be cool.....would that work on the floor?? Or would it not matter much at all and peeps would go off anyway because they are "hot" tracks.

What if you play good tunes that are not necessarily "hot" but they are put together in such a way that they seem stitched together as one track. There is good builds and breaks with purposeful emotional elements at the right time in order to bring the crowd to attention in some way and focus them all at one point in time and then let them go again...would that work better or is it purely unecessary now and more of a hedonistic self-centredness from the artist who is prolly too caught up in his own little world.

[dirty_bass]

Well, when you get onto the argument of, as long as it rocks, who cares.
Personally I have a bit of trouble with that. I have a hang up about effort, and artistry and integrity, and I`ve always loved techno for it`s stance against the mainstream.
I mean, what`s wrong with aguilera miming a whole live set for an hour and a half, it rocks the crowd right?
What would people think of radiohead if they just did a live gig to a dat, and just jumped around on stage?
I don`t think people would be impressed.
Sure it`s important to rock the crowd, but personally I feel better knowing that I actually had to work a bit to do it.
I think it has something to do with ego.

[RDR]

o.k.

I watched surgeon last night... he played with a fader fox, a doepfer pocket fader, and ableton.

Every single slot in the ableton window was filled, and what he did was amazing.

They were, for the most part, full warped tunes.

So where does that sit in this argument. A differentiation between ...

live sets that contain individual instruments, sequenced with Fx.

DJ sets that require no beatmatching, but do require some timing and FX


Are we better leaving the description of a Dj to run its natural course.. ableton or not... when the boundaries become blurred it becomes harder to see the limits of our own skills.

[Trip Head]

Loads of good points being made

In relation to DJing though, there's something about beatmatching which is integral to it. The fact that the tracks aren't perfectly in time just gives a sound to it which I love. And because the DJ is concentrating to get the tracks in time, it means they do the cuts and stuff more on impulse. Whereas if the tracks are already in time, the DJ is just a bit disassociated behind his laptop, and there's not that sense of urgency.

[rhythmtech]

it would seem to me, judging by reactions here, that some folk are more into the actual djing process than whats coming out of the speakers. fair enough.. can we all just drop this now because it's a really really negative arguement to be having... a lot of you have very reasonable opinions (i dont like it, djing is just what i like but live and let live) <<< this is a fair arguement and a valid opinion.. but putting others down and saying that they're "not real djs or performers"because they use ableton is not a nice way to go about things. so let me do what i do and i'll let you do what you do..

cause the arguement is pointless and is beginning to leave a bitter taste in my mouth.

[djshiva]

i think beatmatching is a skill that does give some urgency to what you are doing (as someone stated above). that said, i know a lot of talented producers that have never quite gotten the hang of it, but are still immensely creative people. or people who just need a change from how they have been djing for years. i think ableton gives people a new way to present music, and if used creatively, is friggin amazing.

sure there are always gonna be lazy bastards, but that's the case whether it's vinyl or not.

i do appreciate anyone who works hard to present their (and others) music in the most creative, floor rockin' way possible. and i think all of these things have their place. it shakes up the playing field a bit and allows for different concepts to play out, and i think it's healthy.

i will keep my turntables and my vinyl, because i do love the physicality of it, but i have been messing with ableton as a supplemental tool, and have found that it has many possibilities for augmenting what i normally do. so i am working on implementing ableton INTO vinyl sets, just to see what happens. i don't plan on going all laptop, but there ain't a damn thing wrong with bringing new elements in and challenging myself creatively.

i think the bottom line here is: is it being used creatively? is it being used to elevate the dj set and the crowd experience? is it pushing techno's boundaries?

as long as we keep those questions in our heads, i think we can push forward and still have it be enjoyable and boundary-pushing.

[RDR]

I really liked this last discussion.. very interesting.

[dirty_bass]

i think the bottom line here is: is it being used creatively? is it being used to elevate the dj set and the crowd experience? is it pushing techno's boundaries?

as long as we keep those questions in our heads, i think we can push forward and still have it be enjoyable and boundary-pushing.

That`s about it.
Whatever it is, do it creatively, and with passion.

[holotropik]

Rhythmtech,
I dont think we are being negative, just trying to understand where things are at....good healthy discussion. Not all bad, matey.

Shiva,
Great words and I think that is pretty much where we all stand right now. See what happens in a few years??

[rhythmtech]

Rhythmtech,
I dont think we are being negative, just trying to understand where things are at....good healthy discussion. Not all bad, matey.


its not everyone holo.. its just the same narrow minded idiots posting the same thing again and again. it pisses me off cause its what i do and i try do it well. then you have some mindless twat claiming that i'm not a real dj/performer? all i'll say is come to one of my gigs and try tell me that.. there would be slaps.

[RDR]

Rhythmtech,
I dont think we are being negative, just trying to understand where things are at....good healthy discussion. Not all bad, matey.


its not everyone holo.. its just the same narrow minded idiots posting the same thing again and again. it pisses me off cause its what i do and i try do it well. then you have some mindless twat claiming that i'm not a real dj/performer? all i'll say is come to one of my gigs and try tell me that.. there would be slaps.

I HOPE thats not comin in my direction.

And who claimed you're not doing things well? No body on this thread claimed you are not a DJ... only you can decide that.

This HAS been a good discussion, just because you dont like peoples opinion on it doesnt really give you the right to either call people.

Narrow minded... i havnt seen that...
Idiots... I dont think so.
Mindless????
Twats???

dude. stow that shit... you just made this thread even MORE negative.

[rhythmtech]

LOL do people actually DJ with ableton as well? Man im REALLY out of the loop.

That is the funniest thing i have EVER heard. People should stop doing that shite.....

its like watching A-Trak, Invisible Skratch Picklez, or other turntabalist show up to a DMC battle and play a pre-recorded .wav file that is sequenced in ableton and just messing around with some 'autofiilters'........excellent!! :clap:

dodgy.. quit gettin your knickers in a twist. this is what my comments were aimed at.. and a few similiar ones in the "format wars" thread...

[acidsaturation]

Well, when you get onto the argument of, as long as it rocks, who cares.
Personally I have a bit of trouble with that. I have a hang up about effort, and artistry and integrity, and I`ve always loved techno for it`s stance against the mainstream.

...

Sure it`s important to rock the crowd, but personally I feel better knowing that I actually had to work a bit to do it.
I think it has something to do with ego.

Sure, I reckon it has something to do with ego. Does for me when I'm behind the gear....

But It matters too when I'm the other side. I'd rather see someone struggle and glitch to so something special than do nothing 'cos it sounds tight. Though it's annoying for a moment at the time if I'm playing the social role of "munter"...

----

I think this is a good discussion too. Yeah it may be a bit "same old", but it's "same old" 'cos it's not been trashed out to the (probably impossible) conclusion....

[Dj-Richie-Parker]

We're all going to heaven anyway so whe heyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy :lol:

[RDR]

LOL do people actually DJ with ableton as well? Man im REALLY out of the loop.

That is the funniest thing i have EVER heard. People should stop doing that shite.....

its like watching A-Trak, Invisible Skratch Picklez, or other turntabalist show up to a DMC battle and play a pre-recorded .wav file that is sequenced in ableton and just messing around with some 'autofiilters'........excellent!! :clap:

dodgy.. quit gettin your knickers in a twist. this is what my comments were aimed at.. and a few similiar ones in the "format wars" thread...

Point taken. coat retrieved. taxi ordered. pint downed rapidoooo

[Miromiric]

all i want to is to hear music made by people insisting on mega-ultra-rave equipment setups at gigs.

[holotropik]

all i want to is to hear music made by people insisting on mega-ultra-rave equipment setups at gigs.

YEAH!!....now ya talkin'

[RDR]

Super hot rave party...!

[rhythmtech]

Super hot rave party lucky family wish show!!!

:lol: :lol:

[RDR]

banzai! Hent-tai-tai-tai! aiiieee!

[The Teknoist]

me and Dolphin do a live jam in ableton. Break down all our tracks into layers and throw them over each other so its kinda like a freestyle live set. Dont just stand about with a bottle of beer either, always busy triggering things and ****ing the sound around.

i can understand people being pissed at ableton djs just standing around and smoking.. there are also a lot of vinyl djs that do just that. But yeh, it is even more boring watching someone with just a light in their face being still and looking like theyre not enjoying themselves.

[tocsin]

It's truly bizarre how a style of music based around new innovations in technology, which were sneered upon by musicians who played "real instruments," manages to have fans that can be so technophobic nowadays. Whoda thunk?

[Miromiric]

It's truly bizarre how a style of music based around new innovations in technology, which were sneered upon by musicians who played "real instruments," manages to have fans that can be so technophobic nowadays. Whoda thunk?

yes.

[SlavikSvensk]

It's truly bizarre how a style of music based around new innovations in technology, which were sneered upon by musicians who played "real instruments," manages to have fans that can be so technophobic nowadays. Whoda thunk?

forgive me if i'm saying something that's already ben said (i really can't be arsed to go back and read this whole thing), but isn't the problem people who create boring ableton sets rather than people who use ableton?

the way i see it, ableton has loads of advantages and disadvantages versus djing. if you're using it, take advantage of it...don't just simulate a mix...do some weird sh*t

[tocsin]

It's partially that, Slav. But, I also find it funny how people bitch about the guy who "smokes a cig and holds a drink" while playing with Ableton. I mean, seriously, why does anyone give a ****? I dunno about the rest of you but, when someone is playing music that I like well in a club/rave environment, I'd usually be too busy dancing my ass off to even know what the DJ looked like behind the decks. If I cared about a stage show, I'd go see Motley Crue. :p

[SlavikSvensk]

well, truth be told, one of the strengths of DJing is that it is improvisational. i find hearing DJs to be similar to seeing jazz in that respect. if i hear someone do an ableton set, i'd like to either see them improvising with their material, working and manipulating the music to create something really unique. i'm all for ableton sets when performers do this.

if they just press play, let the tracks roll out and sit back, why did i just pay all that ca$h to hear them?

[SlavikSvensk]

ok let me amend that...should read

"if i hear someone do an ableton set, i'd like to either see them improvising with their material, or working and manipulating the music to create something really unique. preferrably both."

[rhythmtech]

It's partially that, Slav. But, I also find it funny how people bitch about the guy who "smokes a cig and holds a drink" while playing with Ableton. I mean, seriously, why does anyone give a ****? I dunno about the rest of you but, when someone is playing music that I like well in a club/rave environment, I'd usually be too busy dancing my ass off to even know what the DJ looked like behind the decks. If I cared about a stage show, I'd go see Motley Crue. :p

:clap: i HATE lads standing watching me!!! they always stand right in front of the moniter!! bastards

[RDR]

Get your knob out. that'll show em.

[dan the acid man]

Get your knob out. that'll show em.

not good advice, i heard that last time you pulled that stunt, you got electrocuted :lol:

[RDR]

I really have to remember that the police carry tazers.

there was some nasty scorching that night fo' sho'