side chaining kicks & bass made easy (waves c1 sc)

[rhythmtech]

something i found that makes things quite clear...

- Load up a kick into channel 1.

- Load up a bass into channel 2.

- Create a group channel track (Group 1 until you rename it), open up the mixer, and add C1-sc on the last port of the groups inserts rack.

- Go to the kick on the mixer, and open the sends1-4 rack (as if you was going to enable a send effect). Click in the first port, and select Group 1. Make sure you've enabled the send, and then click the button next to enable - Pre-fader. Set the pre-fader to 0db. This will mean that the original unprocessed signal of the kick will be the key for the bass' compression, and no matter what level you adjust the kick, the bass will still compress the same.

- Now open up the kicks Channel Settings window - the little 'e' in the kicks mixer strip. From the Channel settings window of the kick, look near the top right corner and there will be a black drop down menu. Select 'routing'. Then pan the send of the kick (below it) to far left. Close the kicks Channel settings.

- From the main mixer window again, pan the bass far right, and then route the Output of the bass straight to Group 1. Now you should hear the bass coming only through the right speaker, while the kick comes through in stereo but far louder on the left.

- Go to the Group 1 channel on the mixer and open up the C1-sc. Select Key Mode 'L > R' and compress your bass how you want. I go for a ratio of 3.0:1, threshold at about -15 to -20, attack at 0.01ms and release at 50ms.

(now you should hear the bass being compressed, but still only coming through the right speaker, while the kick comes out in true stereo)

- On the main mixer, right click on the Group 1's panning and choose 'Stereo Dual Panner'. Two sets of panning should be there now. Take the pan from the right and bring it back centre (leave the left where it is). Bass should now be back where it's meant.

[TechnoNRGKid]

It seems like lately alot of word is gettin around of how to Sidechain in Waves C1.
There's another method VERY similiar to the one you mentioned.
This way is from The Trance Exeperience DVD trance producer Torsten Fassbender and it was also very similiar to a sidechainin artlicle i found at this link...
http://audiostation.blogspot.com/

Here's the one from Torsten....

1.Create a Track with a Kick

2.Create a Duplicate of that Kick on another Track ( Named Signal, Trigger or similar ) and pan it to left channel.

3.Create a Track with Bass ( Pad , or what ever you want to be ducked ) and pan it to the right channel.

4.Create a Group Channel Track ( i name it sidechain Group 1 )

5. Route the output of the copied Kick Track ( signal ) to the Groups Track.

6. Route the output of the Bass ( sound to be ducked ) to the Groups Track.

5.From the mixer goto the Group Track and right click on the Group Tracks panning section, choose "Stereo Dual Panner", and move the right channel to the center. ( Torsten says to move the left channel to the center also but in his project files from Trance Experience he has the left channel still to the left :eh: i guess it doesnt matter, take a listen. )


6.insert a Waves C1 SC in the Inserts channnel of that Group Track.
You'll see the signals ( kick in this case ) thumping in the blue gauge.

7.Set the Waves C1 SC Key to "L>R" ( L provides the the sidechain signal and R is the signal to be processed ), and adjust the attack to 0.01ms, Release in between 30-100ms ( depends on source material ), Ratio 2:00:1 ( as a starting point ), adjust the makeup gain to about 6DB, finally adjustThreshold to your liking for the effect.

Torsten says the reason he crreates a copy of a track for the signal is because when ever the main kick goes out in the track the ducking wont be triggered, even if you want it to be.
So with havin a 2nd copy/signal in benifits to keep that effect going while the main kick dropsout during your song.

[tracatak]

is there a way to do this in fruity loops? or perhaps with compressor desser and sidechain by TC WERKS


THANKS

[danielmarshall]

Yes. Instead of using groups clone the kicks and set them as children of a common layer. Route the one kick to the side chain channel (where you send your bass as well, but panned to the other side), and the other to its own channel for further processing such as EQ or reverb panned to however you normally pan your kick (should usually be dead center)

You could also accoumplish this using a little mixer routing. This is actually preferable because you can then route your bass to two separate side chain compressors for either stereo channel (using the same C1 settings of course!) and feed them with the same key, preserving their stereo field. Basslines without any stereo width (at least those which have some higher harmonics in them) sound a little lifeless to me, so this is a big bonus if you like techstep style DnB basslines in your music.

If you don't have Waves C1 or something similar, but still want to do side chaining - have no fear! There's a very powerful technique to get a similar sound (and have even more control!) using a two lovely little FLStudio plugins called Peak Controller and Formula Controller. Basically what you do is to put a Peak controller in a mixer channel, then route your kick to that channel. Make sure the mute setting is off (it's on by default). Next send your bass to a new mixer channel and insert a formula controller into it. Then right click on the knob that says "a". Select "Link to controller". Then Select "Peak ctr (*whateve your kick's channel's name is*) - Peak" under "internal controllers" and click OK. Now type in (a*(2*b-1))+c into the formula box. Set c to somewhere in the middle, and b to Roughly 25%. Finally right click on your bass channel's mixer gain and select "link to controller" again. This time link it to your formula controller.

Hit spacebar and whatch your bassline's gain duck to the kick! To tweak the settings (which you will need to do almost always) you can play with the decay settings on the Peak controller to increase or decrease the duration of the gain reduction as well as smoothing out ergular gating. You can further affect the shape of the gain reduction curve by playing with the tension control. This is useful for taloring the agression of the side chaining action. Next you'll want to play with the more obvious sounding parameters - namely the b and c knobs on your formula controller. b directly affects the degree of gain reduction (or possibly expansion if you push it past 50%!) and c controls the overall maximum volume of the track.

If somebody will give me some web space I'll upload an example FLP file.

[rounser]

There's another way, but it's so simple it's likely to be dismissed out of hand; just use automation instead of sidechaining. Apparently sidechaining was a pre-automation way to get control, mainly...

[dirty_bass]

You could also use a sidechained gate

[loopdon]

Yes. Instead of using groups clone the kicks and set them as children of a common layer. Route the one kick to the side chain channel (where you send your bass as well, but panned to the other side), and the other to its own channel for further processing such as EQ or reverb panned to however you normally pan your kick (should usually be dead center)

You could also accoumplish this using a little mixer routing. This is actually preferable because you can then route your bass to two separate side chain compressors for either stereo channel (using the same C1 settings of course!) and feed them with the same key, preserving their stereo field. Basslines without any stereo width (at least those which have some higher harmonics in them) sound a little lifeless to me, so this is a big bonus if you like techstep style DnB basslines in your music.

If you don't have Waves C1 or something similar, but still want to do side chaining - have no fear! There's a very powerful technique to get a similar sound (and have even more control!) using a two lovely little FLStudio plugins called Peak Controller and Formula Controller. Basically what you do is to put a Peak controller in a mixer channel, then route your kick to that channel. Make sure the mute setting is off (it's on by default). Next send your bass to a new mixer channel and insert a formula controller into it. Then right click on the knob that says "a". Select "Link to controller". Then Select "Peak ctr (*whateve your kick's channel's name is*) - Peak" under "internal controllers" and click OK. Now type in (a*(2*b-1))+c into the formula box. Set c to somewhere in the middle, and b to Roughly 25%. Finally right click on your bass channel's mixer gain and select "link to controller" again. This time link it to your formula controller.

Hit spacebar and whatch your bassline's gain duck to the kick! To tweak the settings (which you will need to do almost always) you can play with the decay settings on the Peak controller to increase or decrease the duration of the gain reduction as well as smoothing out ergular gating. You can further affect the shape of the gain reduction curve by playing with the tension control. This is useful for taloring the agression of the side chaining action. Next you'll want to play with the more obvious sounding parameters - namely the b and c knobs on your formula controller. b directly affects the degree of gain reduction (or possibly expansion if you push it past 50%!) and c controls the overall maximum volume of the track.

If somebody will give me some web space I'll upload an example FLP file.

i wonder about the formula - i have only ever seen/used the 'Invert' setting instead of '(a*(2*b-1))+c '. Can you please explain this, daniel?

[loopdon]

stardust vst from arguru provides instant pump as well

http://zkantar.free.fr/pagestardust.html for free :paranoid:

[danielmarshall]

Hey loopdon. I developed this technique myself, though I'm sure there are people out there that use a similar trick. It gives me ALLOT more flexibility than just setting linking the gain to a peak controller and inverting the mapping. The nice thing with this setup is that you get to specify exactly how much you want to compress/expand it, as well as overalll gain control. Another really big bonus is that you get to see exactly how the function is operating by clicking on the "meter" tab. That's quite useful for fine tuning your peak controller's tension feature. It's a far better solution in general...

Anyway, down to the maths

The formula (a*(2*b-1))+c has three "active ingredients" a, 2*b-1 and c

the fuction f(b)= 2*b-1 translates and linearly scales the values of b from the interval [0,1] to the interval [-1,1]. More specifically, at exactly half way (b = 0.5) it will evaluate to 0, i.e. 2*0.5-1 = 0. Likewise, at b=0 f(b) evaluates to -1 and at b = 1 it evaluates to 1.

In this situation b is used to control the "polarity" and intensity of the side chaining action. By polarity I mean wether it's going to increase the gain when your peak controller is triggered or wether it's going to reduce it. For instance, by setting b = 0.45 you get a very minor dip in the output of the overall function, but by setting b = 0.1 the effect is markedly bigger (so you get chunkier compression). If on the other hand you set it to a value > 0.5 it'll actually boost it. Play around with it and you'll see what I mean.

the parameter a is used to directly scale (2*b-1), and is linked to the peak controller.

c is the value that reflects the function output when your peak controller is outputting 0 i.e. the controlelr value when there's no kick drum or whatever you're using as your key. c could therefor be called your base level. I like to set knob to 79%, which is the value which fruity's mixer gains defaut to just to keep things nice and uniform.

Some good settings using my technique for some daft punk style side chaining are as follows:

a is linked to peak controller, b = 20% (0.2), c = 79% (0.79)

Hope that cleared things up.

By the way, have a try at this controlling other things in FL Studio... some suggestions to get you started are: reverb send levels, synced high pass filter sweeps on basslines instead of gain reduction or even plugin parameters (bit reduction and distortion works nicely here) As you can see this is a pretty potent technique, and the primary reason I don't use another sequencer for writing techno. Internal controllers rock!!!

[danielmarshall]

There's another way, but it's so simple it's likely to be dismissed out of hand; just use automation instead of sidechaining. Apparently sidechaining was a pre-automation way to get control, mainly...

Yeah, but you'd have to copy the automation every time there's a kick in the track. Using a side chainer will do everything automatically.

[loopdon]

daniel, i know this is grave-digging but it needed be. so good.

[danielmarshall]

No problem dude. Just happy I could contribute :)

[dirty_bass]

I`m actually turning away from the whole sidechain thing these days.
That oompah sound really grates me.
I would say solve the problem with EQ first, cut a hole in your bass and slide the kick in there, then use very very sublte sidechaining to just tweak it up a little.

[rhythmtech]

I`m actually turning away from the whole sidechain thing these days.
That oompah sound really grates me.


depends how you use it really..

i really dont like the idea of cuttin a hole in my bass. there are shared frequencies between kick and bass that i wanna keep in both. so sidechaining looks after that for me.

[danielmarshall]

I know what you mean fellas. Not all tracks work that great with a side chain setup, especially ones with a real bass guitar or some other bassline with lots of upper harmonics. People also set thier gain reduction way too high, but sometimes I really like that heavily syncopated pumping effect on basslines where the compressor has a high release time creating holes in the bass responce at roughly every 3/4 beat as opposed to one big long drone of bass. It adds movement to the low end IMO. Ben Sims - Theory is a good example of what I'm on about.

[dirty_bass]

I think if you were to talk to most professional producers they would frown upon it.
I`ve used it for a long time, and have seen the light finally.
It`s an easy fix that is better and more effectively cured with proper EQ and sound choice.
Unless, the pump is what you are looking for, although you`ll get that at the master stage anyway, if you are looking for typical dance music mastering.

[danielmarshall]

OK, I'm hardly about to argue with somebody of your talent and reputation LOL. Respect given where respect's due, but at the end of the day I suppose it's what your music sounds like, and for somebody with more limited skills such as myself I suppose a quick fix is a bit of a god send. It may not be professional, it may be frowned uppon, and hell I'm probably embarassing myself writing this paragraph, but at least it sounds less like a mud ball!

[rhythmtech]

i personally dont care who frowns upon it. im sure every producer has one or two things that they do that people would frown upon. its just another tool to use really. end of the day its the final product.

[dirty_bass]

the point I`m making is, there is a better way, and we should always be striving for improvement, rather than staying in the same place.

Sidechaining is a good fix for a problem, and a nice effect for pump and suck sounds. But I`ve come to realise you can fix the problem with kick and bass, more effectively, with less detrimental effect to your bass, by avoiding or at least using only slightly, the sidechain route.

I learned how to do this from learning to make Dubstep, as this really is an area where your bass has to be spot on, as it is the lead element.

Whether or not anyone cares is another matter, but there is a more professional method for sorting your bass, and I thought people may like to know that.

[rhythmtech]

not knocking you db.. just puttin my view on it across. dont be gettin so para

:paranoid: :paranoid:

:lol:

[loopdon]

i never really liked sidechaining an rarely used it. if -at all- mainly because people said it was a key element in techno etc. i just think: try different methods - see what works for you --> use it. i agree that from the purely technical side there are better ways.. i.e. volume automation, velocities.. from an artistical point i'd say use whatever you please in whatever way you like, m'key...

benni benassi's stuff etc. etc. lived from sidechained/bass and sidechained verb. in an overdosed way. and i kinda liked it, call me cheesey.

i don't really want to talk about it, tbh. :)

[dirty_bass]

Well, this part of the forum does nark me a little.
I tend to frequent some pro production forums, and quite often I`ll find myself corrected by serious engineers on improvements I can make to my technique.
Generally my response is, bloody hell, that sounds great, I`ll give that a try, cheers.
However in this place, it`s not producers, it`s techno producers, so there`s that DJ ego that creeps in now and again, and people get shirty cos they feel damaged.

It`s not about one upmanship, it`s about sharing professional knowledge, that`s all.

[rhythmtech]

totally. and i honestly think thats y its so quiet in here lately. people didnt like being told that what they were doing wasnt good.

on the sidechaining issue, besides bass i love using it on synths or percussions. i find it just changes the dynamics/groove a little.

[dirty_bass]

sidechaining, well, overcompression is lovely when you have a separate bus with silly compression on it, then you can send elements you woouldn`t normally apply it to there.
I love the sucking effect, but not the oompah oompah hardhouse type typical sidechain that everyone and their mother uses.
It`s nice to sidechain percussion to an off kilter (and silent) kick, for extra odd effect.

[force]

Still not used side-chaining on anything yet, Still trying to perfect me subtractive EQ techniques at the mo.................but i'll get round to it

[dirty_bass]

Still not used side-chaining on anything yet, Still trying to perfect me subtractive EQ techniques at the mo.................but i'll get round to it

that`s the stuff man, THE most important thing in production technique.
Although I think you are one of the most accomplished producers in the files section in terms of technique.

[force]

You are clearly havin a laugh :lol:

[loopdon]

regarding the getting quieter here: i dunno who's fault that is or if it is anybody's fault at all. i have really tried to do my part here. so have others and i thank them for there efforts. i have been thinking of somebody else to take over my job here. i would love to have this place buzzing (like maybe dogs-on-acid: the grid or k-v-r audio etc.) those forums are open to all and that's what gets the info in there, imo. i voted for a test phase with an 'open to all' aproach but i can't change the forum policies. i don't come here for lots of info, tbh. on d-o-a there are samplepacks on a nearly daily basis. seems to be a differnt mentality, alltogether. *sigh*

[stjohn]

You are clearly havin a laugh :lol:

i concur on that man!!! you've got the fullest sound methinks

[danielmarshall]

It`s not about one upmanship, it`s about sharing professional knowledge, that`s all.

:thumbsup:

[dirty_bass]

regarding the getting quieter here: i dunno who's fault that is or if it is anybody's fault at all. i have really tried to do my part here. so have others and i thank them for there efforts. i have been thinking of somebody else to take over my job here. i would love to have this place buzzing (like maybe dogs-on-acid: the grid or k-v-r audio etc.) those forums are open to all and that's what gets the info in there, imo. i voted for a test phase with an 'open to all' aproach but i can't change the forum policies. i don't come here for lots of info, tbh. on d-o-a there are samplepacks on a nearly daily basis. seems to be a differnt mentality, alltogether. *sigh*

dude I think you do a fantastic job, I`d like to help out more, and I will when I get broadband.

I`d like to do a question and answer thread, then we can compile the best stuff from that.

[eyeswithoutaface]

i personally cant stand sidechaining, as said, everyman and his mother uses that technique and its become pretty cliched now in terms of use and general thought amongst techno producers, but more particulary newer producers. I just dont like that feeling it gives at all unfortunately, i dont want my basses to duck when the kick comes in, i want them both to be playing off each other instead and creating extra dynamics that comes with this, and for me personally i apply good solid EQ, Subtractive EQ and applied compression, but ive never wanted that oomph oomph sound anyway, and i just dont personally think its a great technique overall, just my 2 bobs worth

[BloodStar]

yes. sidechaining is pretty much overdone in techno, that's true. you can achieve more or less the same and better result with using different approaches,good subtractive EQ,,and so. no doubt about it,. i just want to say, that any technique when used too often or any type of effect when used too much can become a cliche one day,. just look at the distortion effect,.all this schranz shit makes a real bad light on such a kind of effect even it can be great when used at the right moment with the right amount..or 909 style bass drums in techno,. there is much more.. it can be same for any type of effect or any production technique which become a cliche when used too often.. so i would advice dont hesitate to use any techniques or effect or whatever, but just use your brain and ears..my opinion.

[luisg99]

You guys always provide great tips for techno... hard to get this on other forums, gracias

[eyeswithoutaface]

this section of the board is easily the best, by a country mile :)

[danielmarshall]

I love this place too eyeswithoutaface

One way of using a side chain a little more creatively is to use it as an insert instead of a send (so you don't hear the key at all) on an independant kick drum or loop with a rather agressive attack and release to create dynamics in the bass somewhere other than the offbeat. I also llike using side chainging to gate my rides. rhythmtech seems to be a fan too.

[rhythmtech]

rhythmtech seems to be a fan too.

haha yeah :)

i like using it on rides too.. but not a straight 4/4 kick.. something a little differant.