The Means ? Or The Ends ?

[module]

which is more important ?

the actual tune & groove ? or the split frequency of the high end ?

sick to the back teeth of ppl on high horses going on & on about f**king production..

WHO F**KING CARES ????

ppl need to let go of the means & become interested in the ends..

screw pcs.. give everyone a 909 & S2000 see who can cook up a good tune..

can we please get back to makin summat to dance to & forget about who has the most vsti's please ?

[rhythmtech]

the tune is most important. without a tune all you have is polished production ala westlife.

[module]

i been going thru lots of old old techno the last few months.. and some of it is sooo blistering & raw.. really urgent & you can hear the 909s about to cave in. thats all those guys had & they squeezed the f**k out of every last bit of kit they had.

now, its jus a d'load away & you can have all the tools, so ppl seem caught up in polish & shine & all that bo&&ocks & totally missing the point..

THE MUSIC!

maybe its jus me.. maybe i'm old, but all this 'theres a hole at blah blah frequency' is utter bulls**t. who cares if its a bit ropey.. really, given half the pa's ppl have to contend with.

go listen to 'My Definition of House' by Dj Hell. grim grim terrible sound. but what a tune. and what a hook.. i mean, its f**king lethal on any rig. but if that tune came out today, it would be s;ammed by everyone as 'amateur crap.. prob made on Reason... pffft' type s**t.

and yes, there is an argument about 'well, if it came out today, by todays standards it IS bad & therefore blah blah' but really, what does this achieve ? nothing. outdside of a few ppl elevating themselves & looking down noses, it is good for NOTHING!

ok, if i a kid in abedroom makes a track with bad highs, thats fiune. nelp him, by all means, but dont dissect the guy frequency by frequency. and if its in a style you dont dig, thats cool, you dont have to lay on the abuse. like all the Schranz bashing that went on... which then has been replaced by Minimil Bashing..

i mean, really... wtf ??? is this a scene or a f**king playground lol is it a community or a classroom ?


i may come across badly in gettin my message across, but i believe there are those that know what i'm gettin at...

and, this is not a bash at SOS, but the thread about 'schranz v techno' is soooo playground.. what is the point ? other than to bash other ppls views & opinions ?





i dont intend to offend or upset anyone with this, but i need to say it somewhere. and i feel this is prob the best place for it to be heard.

can we PLEASE get back to the music ? and drop the one up manship ?

[dirty_bass]

Nope, old stuff was still produced well.

these kind of comments generally come from people who are frustrated at their level of production.

[herman]

Nope, old stuff was still produced well.

these kind of comments generally come from people who are frustrated at their level of production.

This is the truth ;)

[module]

Nope, old stuff was still produced well.

these kind of comments generally come from people who are frustrated at their level of production.


hate to burst your bubbles but.. its not actually about production, its about ppls attitude towards it..

and that type of comment is EXACTLY the type of thing i'm gettin at... thanx :lol:

[dan the acid man]

of course the groove of the tune is important, and yeah, i've bought lots of records that are rough around the edges, but as a producer, why would you not want to get better at the art of producing ?

surely it's human nature to want to better yourself.

Yeah it's easy to get tied up in all of that, and then lose focus of actually writing a decent piece of music to accompany the polished sound, but surely the aim is to have both in a finished product.

[module]

dan, everything you say is correct, i'm talking about the criticisms levelled at producers.

and i aint talking bout me. ive done nowt since maybe december.. gettin married changed everything for me :)

i'm talkin bout ppl knocking work pureky on production basis. yes, we all want to be better, but a shiney finish aint everything.. imo ;)

[dan the acid man]

i hear that, but i cant say i've ever seen or heard anybody slating a tune just for the production quality.

Constructive criticism is always needed

[crime]

when you have access to so many plug ins, its very easy to try and polish a turd.... instead of giving up with a shit idea and coming up with something else...

[A.P.]

Go on module, i know exactly where your coming from mate!

[The Overfiend]

when you have access to so many plug ins, its very easy to try and polish a turd.... instead of giving up with a shit idea and coming up with something else...

Agreed

[The Overfiend]

ok, if i a kid in abedroom makes a track with bad highs, thats fiune. nelp him, by all means, but dont dissect the guy frequency by frequency. and if its in a style you dont dig, thats cool, you dont have to lay on the abuse. like all the Schranz bashing that went on... which then has been replaced by Minimil Bashing..

i mean, really... wtf ??? is this a scene or a f**king playground lol is it a community or a classroom ?


i may come across badly in gettin my message across, but i believe there are those that know what i'm gettin at...

and, this is not a bash at SOS, but the thread about 'schranz v techno' is soooo playground.. what is the point ? other than to bash other ppls views & opinions ?

i dont intend to offend or upset anyone with this, but i need to say it somewhere. and i feel this is prob the best place for it to be heard.

can we PLEASE get back to the music ? and drop the one up manship ?

No one man up ship going on whatsoever on my part.
I do not think I am any better than the next man.
I practice my craft daily and still know I have a lot to learn.
I do agree wit mac, the producers of yester year on hardware, did know quite a bit about what they were doing.

[The Overfiend]

this is not a bash at SOS, but the thread about 'schranz v techno' is soooo playground.. what is the point ? other than to bash other ppls views & opinions ?


I want you to quote me and show where I did that.

[dirty_bass]

I can`t see constructive critisism and actually taking time to analyse and offer suggestions to someone as anything other than good.

Any musician wants to be better, and the studio is the instrument of techno.

even the sex pistols were well produced.

Techno has got woefully bad levels of production these days, mainly do to the ease of access to technology and the "just mash loops together" simplicity in making average techno.


In any other scene, drum and bass, minimal etc I`ve ever looked at, the general level of critique is much higher, and people are really jumped on, so tend not to let their music out until it is of a higher standard.

It`s not hard to produce well, it merely takes patience and hard work and time spent. everybody wants something for nothing and an easy ride these days, a quick fix.

Anyone can make music these days, and sure the tune is THE most important part of the whole production. But a professional level of production lifts it above the increasing sea of average.

I don`t know any good artist who wouldn`t want to improve, and those that moan when confronted with critisism are generally those who think they have learned everything.

The main thing I have learned in production, is that, there is always more to learn, and more to strive for.

[rhythmtech]

I can`t see constructive critisism and actually taking time to analyse and offer suggestions to someone as anything other than good.


i agree totally. if it wasnt for constructive criticism from the likes of steve and others on here i would have releases lined up at the moment and i'm very grateful for that so i try to give back to this site and newer producers with some of my own constructive criticism BUT i do see where module is coming from...

i've noticed it myself in the production filez section (and probably been guilty of it) where a good tune made by someone without good production skills goes unnoticed but the bad production of it is put under the spotlight. maybe in future we should put a pros/cons reply?

techno (all) producers, by the very essence of our music, should want to better their skills but when it comes down to it the tune is THE MOST IMPORTANT THING.

[rhythmtech]

*that shoulda read "wouldn't have releases lined up"


EDIT BUTTON PLEASE MARK!!!!!!!

[holotropik]

Some tunes are made to be durty.
Some tunes are made to be fine.

The production behind both these tunes is of the same never-ending improvement.

But, yeah....some peeps do go too far in their analysing of a tune. There has been much bitchiness involved.
Competition...??
Clique...??
Dont worry about it, just keep going.

[Jay Pace]

Part of the problem is that if you don't like the tune or if it does nothing for you then all you have to comment on is the production.

So production gets singled out. Its something everyone can comment on.
The quality of the tune itself will be a matter of personal taste.

[fatcollective]

which is more important ?

the actual tune & groove ? or the split frequency of the high end ?

sick to the back teeth of ppl on high horses going on & on about f**king production..

WHO F**KING CARES ????

ppl need to let go of the means & become interested in the ends..

screw pcs.. give everyone a 909 & S2000 see who can cook up a good tune..

can we please get back to makin summat to dance to & forget about who has the most vsti's please ?

i think a good mixture of the both areas is needed, obviously the track has to be dance worthy, but it makes all the diffrence if it sounds good too!!

[module]

good points from many peeps here, though i do think DB has made yet more smart arse comments that are of use to no one ;)

lol jus kidding DB.. i do see where all peeps are coming from, and maybe (again ffs) i havent totally explained my point.


ok.. try this one on ---> Jeff Mills is known for hi manic mixing style (regardless of accuracy of the mix) and there are ppl who actually dig that vibe.. the slightly out of synce mixes that although lacking in precision are bursting with enthusiasm. i myself appreciate a dj trying things.. throwing records in & out like stink.. and if they do make a mistake, its only cos they are pushin it sooo far. at times i feel the same about trax. some, imo, are too worked, too polished, to the point where the raw energy is drained out in an attempt to get every aspect perfect. take the hard hard techno of Amok etc.. some of it sounds too squeezed or thrown down real quick, but maybe thats their buzz... get the idea down real quick & keep the raw initial buzz as opposed to spending 3 months on eq'ing hats..

i aint bitter as DB insinuates. in fact, i accepted a long time ago that i would not make it as a producer.. and there are many reasons for that. none of which i will bore you with here lol

maybe its a 'forum thing' that has came about... but there does seeem to be a tendancy to home in on production level as opposed to the actual 'groove' or 'tune' thats been laid down. i could be wrong.. i dunno. its jus a thought & nothing more. so please ppl, dont take it as a stab at anyone or any thing, its jus a thought that comes back to me from time to time.

the post wasnt meant to incite or hate on anyone. jus a post.. a thought.. if it IS that futile or inciteful, then by all means mods, remove it.

i'm married now, and quite frankly, much much more interested in my wife & home than a bunch of opinionated techno geeks lol

jus kidding :P

[module]

ok, if i a kid in abedroom makes a track with bad highs, thats fiune. nelp him, by all means, but dont dissect the guy frequency by frequency. and if its in a style you dont dig, thats cool, you dont have to lay on the abuse. like all the Schranz bashing that went on... which then has been replaced by Minimil Bashing..

i mean, really... wtf ??? is this a scene or a f**king playground lol is it a community or a classroom ?


i may come across badly in gettin my message across, but i believe there are those that know what i'm gettin at...

and, this is not a bash at SOS, but the thread about 'schranz v techno' is soooo playground.. what is the point ? other than to bash other ppls views & opinions ?

i dont intend to offend or upset anyone with this, but i need to say it somewhere. and i feel this is prob the best place for it to be heard.

can we PLEASE get back to the music ? and drop the one up manship ?

No one man up ship going on whatsoever on my part.
I do not think I am any better than the next man.
I practice my craft daily and still know I have a lot to learn.
I do agree wit mac, the producers of yester year on hardware, did know quite a bit about what they were doing.


i wasnt accusing any one person. i mentioned no names. i dont know why you believe this was about you, but rest assured, its not singling anyone out at all.

as for the 'schranz/techno' issue.. its in reference to the sticky.. like i said then, it wasnt to single you out SOS, it was jus an example. in truth, i find the attitude in the Dark/Dungeon forum waaay more righteous than anything.. some of the abuse handed out in there is downright sad.

i have friends who are big into their techno, much more than i am these days. we diagree, quite strongly,. on a lot of things, but its never ever got nasty. its jus life. i dont know why forums seem to carry so much weight, but thats the web for ya.

[module]

Part of the problem is that if you don't like the tune or if it does nothing for you then all you have to comment on is the production.

So production gets singled out. Its something everyone can comment on.
The quality of the tune itself will be a matter of personal taste.

^^ excellent point jay. well made :cool:

[The Overfiend]

ok, if i a kid in abedroom makes a track with bad highs, thats fiune. nelp him, by all means, but dont dissect the guy frequency by frequency. and if its in a style you dont dig, thats cool, you dont have to lay on the abuse. like all the Schranz bashing that went on... which then has been replaced by Minimil Bashing..

i mean, really... wtf ??? is this a scene or a f**king playground lol is it a community or a classroom ?


i may come across badly in gettin my message across, but i believe there are those that know what i'm gettin at...

and, this is not a bash at SOS, but the thread about 'schranz v techno' is soooo playground.. what is the point ? other than to bash other ppls views & opinions ?

i dont intend to offend or upset anyone with this, but i need to say it somewhere. and i feel this is prob the best place for it to be heard.

can we PLEASE get back to the music ? and drop the one up manship ?

No one man up ship going on whatsoever on my part.
I do not think I am any better than the next man.
I practice my craft daily and still know I have a lot to learn.
I do agree wit mac, the producers of yester year on hardware, did know quite a bit about what they were doing.


i wasnt accusing any one person. i mentioned no names. i dont know why you believe this was about you, but rest assured, its not singling anyone out at all.

as for the 'schranz/techno' issue.. its in reference to the sticky.. like i said then, it wasnt to single you out SOS, it was jus an example. in truth, i find the attitude in the Dark/Dungeon forum waaay more righteous than anything.. some of the abuse handed out in there is downright sad.

i have friends who are big into their techno, much more than i am these days. we diagree, quite strongly,. on a lot of things, but its never ever got nasty. its jus life. i dont know why forums seem to carry so much weight, but thats the web for ya.

understood.

i too live the family life.

quickest way put that sticky is there screaming
hey
I am an artist
and I make hard techno
and i will not let a schranz producer or group of come along
and redefine what i and many others here do.

[RDR]

maybe in future we should put a pros/cons reply?

A ****ing safe idea.

Remarks must be qualified though.

[RDR]

the producers of yesteryear did know quite a bit about what they were doing.

[Jay Pace]

I really like that pro's/con's idea too.

Gets you in a more constructive mindset, rather than just staying quiet, or comments like "too minimal for me, not my cup of tea" which are a pain in the arse if you are looking for feedback.

[RDR]

Oopps

They had to, there was no other way of doing things, not banks of presets, not hordes of loop CDs, expensive equipment. you couldnt buy it at the end of every month, end of 6months more like,,, so they got chance to KNOW their equipment, to understand it and its limits and benefits.

[eyeswithoutaface]

"when i were a lad!......"

[robin m]

Can't say I've ever seen anyone's stuff in the production forum get unhelpful reviews or plain abuse myself.

Whenever I've posted a track up I'm hoping people will comment on the production side of it, and I don't want to hear about the things I've done well so much as the things I've done badly - it's impossible to keep listening to your tune objectively and after the 2,000th listen to the same loop your ear just tunes out the shit bits. Someone else who knows what they're talking about to the point that they can pinpoint the frequencies that need cutting or sounds that are mushing into one another can say whatever they like about my tune, the more the better - that's the stuff I want to hear that I can use to actually make a better sound next time.

I don't really give a shit (well, I'll never complain :cheese:) if someone just pipes up with 'I like the groove'... and if I changed the "tune" every time someone said they didn't like it, I wouldn't be writing my own music - bollocks to that :)

[module]

btw, i aint talkin exclusively about BOA... or techno for that matter. there jus seems to me to be a general air of emphasis on the production over the tune. imo.

maybe its jus the ppl i hang with or forums i read, doesnt make it true, its jus what i see & hear these days & i find it.. i dont know.. a bit by the by or beside the actual point.

anyways.. cool to see good points & good feedback & ideas i hadnt considered. oh yeah, and 'gay' comments.. cos they really are best left to South Park lol

good stuff peeps :)

[holotropik]

Part of the problem is that if you don't like the tune or if it does nothing for you then all you have to comment on is the production.

So production gets singled out. Its something everyone can comment on.
The quality of the tune itself will be a matter of personal taste.

Good point man! True.

[holotropik]

ok.. try this one on ---> Jeff Mills is known for hi manic mixing style (regardless of accuracy of the mix) and there are ppl who actually dig that vibe.. the slightly out of synce mixes that although lacking in precision are bursting with enthusiasm. i myself appreciate a dj trying things.. throwing records in & out like stink.. and if they do make a mistake, its only cos they are pushin it sooo far. at times i feel the same about trax. some, imo, are too worked, too polished, to the point where the raw energy is drained out in an attempt to get every aspect perfect. take the hard hard techno of Amok etc.. some of it sounds too squeezed or thrown down real quick, but maybe thats their buzz... get the idea down real quick & keep the raw initial buzz as opposed to spending 3 months on eq'ing hats..

I agree.
Prefer stuff that is raw as opposed to perfect.
Dj Rush (one of my favs for this reason).

[dirty_bass]

to be honest I think for the most part areas of taste should be avoided in critisism.
But a lot of people post just wanting a pat on the back, and when they don`t get it, get assy. Issues of taste are really irrelevent to all but the producer making the tune.
So it comes down to just commenting on the production itself, pointing out good areas is needed sure, as well as what could be improved, and then providing solutions.

If you can`t take critisism, then really you shouldn`t be posting your music up publicly.

And I don`t think I make smart ass comments to reply to Pete.
I`m exceedingly clinical in analysing the production side of a tune, if you take this as a personal attack, then really, that`s your insecurity, not mine.

[holotropik]

[quote="dirty_bass"]If you can`t take critisism, then really you shouldn`t be posting your music up publicly.quote]

true.
beware your ego...

[dirty_bass]

totally, it`s an ego blow to get critiqued, but better to get it in place place that is designed for it, then to get it as part of a demo rejection from a record label, who may well not bother listening to any further demo`s you send as they were unimpressed.

[Jay Pace]

I'm indebted to this place for objective criticism.

Although its admittedly hard to take, when you spend months working on something you think is great, only to have it decimated.
But its the best way to learn. Painful, but you know you are making progress.

I listen to stuff I made a couple of years ago and wince at the quality of it.
Without someone else to explain to me why it sounded bad I might still think it was the shizzle.

[holotropik]

Also
A track will be better if the artist is at a point where they are "on song".
Some know the feeling of when you "are on it" and stuff just flows.
At this point your creativity and production will be appropriate according to your knowledge and experience. Others will see/feel this in the track.

of course there are times when that track isnt what you want to listen to at the moment.
No amount of "polish" will make it otherwise. Timing is everything, perhaps?

I find that I will comment on the tracks content if I have listened to the artists work previously on numerous occaisions.

[module]

to be honest I think for the most part areas of taste should be avoided in critisism.
But a lot of people post just wanting a pat on the back, and when they don`t get it, get assy. Issues of taste are really irrelevent to all but the producer making the tune.
So it comes down to just commenting on the production itself, pointing out good areas is needed sure, as well as what could be improved, and then providing solutions.

If you can`t take critisism, then really you shouldn`t be posting your music up publicly.

And I don`t think I make smart ass comments to reply to Pete.
I`m exceedingly clinical in analysing the production side of a tune, if you take this as a personal attack, then really, that`s your insecurity, not mine.


dude.. seriously, its not about my stuff.. ive put up only one track in months now. and you actually said you quite liked it. most ppl did. and i wasnt expecting anyone to dig it tbh.

i'm not talking about me here. this isnt about my tunes. i havent done a thing since way last year.. the odd noodle, as was posted in the production files, but thats it.

i'm talking about the bigger picture. other ppl on other forums & how its almost a new culture.. this isnt a 'oh.. nobody likes my loops.. boo hoo' lol its jus a thought. but one i thought i could maybe get some new & fresh views on via BOA. i dont know why your coming at it the way you are. i hope this goes some way to explaning it further. seriously, this isnt an ego thing.. my ego was battered down along time ago via djing & partying too much.. i had my big fall waaay back believe me lol

and DB, it was jus a joke, not a dig. i dont mean ill.. was jus in jest.

[module]

tbh, ive never had a problem with anyone not liking anything ive done. its the manner in which ppl address certain issues, and it aint jus here. its ppl i know & lots of other forums.. the taste thing is subjective.. and gettin constructive comments is worth its weight in gold. not that ive done anything to get any feedback on lately.. its not gettin the flack, ive learned about that in bands since i was 12 & i got the thick sorta skin with music critique. its jus when ppl seem to get almost preachy & righteous.. yes, help. and be straight & to the point, but there is lil use in jus ripping on someone & trying to posture.

and this isnt aimed at anyone in particular. certainly not you DB. yes, at times you can be scathing, but thats your way. and you have the credentials to back up your word.

i maybe could/should have spent more time on the first post & said all this then, but i didnt. sorry.

was jus something i thought was worth throwing out there :)


but yeah, its a comment about production forums, not my experience. and some ppl have seen where im at with it.

[dan the acid man]

this spreads far and wide though, go and have a read of hifi magazines to see how serious people are about listening to nice sounding music

[jesus]

which is more important ?

the actual tune & groove ? or the split frequency of the high end ?

sick to the back teeth of ppl on high horses going on & on about f**king production..

If you're suggesting that prodcution is about 'split frequency of the high end' then id agree that the tune and groove are more important. What you said seems to be a mastering quibble however - which is afterall there job to polish something to stardom, so i'd say it's ok for them to debate which dither is better or 0.1db eq to increase etc. Techno producers usually say 'phatten your kick a bit more' or something similar which is a bit more relevant to a good techno tune dont you think?
For me production is alot more than frequency issues . Personally the quality of a tune goes hand in hand with how good the tune is.
Considering that all a computer producer does is produce then you'd think they should get good at there trade. Now some may agree some may not, at the end of the day everyone has there own criteria for what makes something good or more important. No-ones opinion is more correct than someone elses, just different.

[dirty_bass]

to be honest I think for the most part areas of taste should be avoided in critisism.
But a lot of people post just wanting a pat on the back, and when they don`t get it, get assy. Issues of taste are really irrelevent to all but the producer making the tune.
So it comes down to just commenting on the production itself, pointing out good areas is needed sure, as well as what could be improved, and then providing solutions.

If you can`t take critisism, then really you shouldn`t be posting your music up publicly.

And I don`t think I make smart ass comments to reply to Pete.
I`m exceedingly clinical in analysing the production side of a tune, if you take this as a personal attack, then really, that`s your insecurity, not mine.


dude.. seriously, its not about my stuff.. ive put up only one track in months now. and you actually said you quite liked it. most ppl did. and i wasnt expecting anyone to dig it tbh.

i'm not talking about me here. this isnt about my tunes. i havent done a thing since way last year.. the odd noodle, as was posted in the production files, but thats it.

i'm talking about the bigger picture. other ppl on other forums & how its almost a new culture.. this isnt a 'oh.. nobody likes my loops.. boo hoo' lol its jus a thought. but one i thought i could maybe get some new & fresh views on via BOA. i dont know why your coming at it the way you are. i hope this goes some way to explaning it further. seriously, this isnt an ego thing.. my ego was battered down along time ago via djing & partying too much.. i had my big fall waaay back believe me lol

and DB, it was jus a joke, not a dig. i dont mean ill.. was jus in jest.

Who says I was talking about you in anything but the part directed at you?

[dirty_bass]

Really, I don`t see the problem.
As soon as you place your music somewhere that people can pass comment, you are bound to get totally negative stuff at some point.
It`s just something you have to accept and it kinda comes as aprt and parcel to the internet in general.

You can always put your stuff online in places like myspace, and turn comments off, if you don`t want any.

I mean, I see the point of this thread, kinda.

People in general do comment on production a lot.
Maybe it`s because everybody has a PC and thinks they can produce, so there is a lot of shite about?
Maybe it`s because production knowledge is more easily accessed, so more people know what they are on about.
Maybe it`s because some people are just buggers.
Maybe it`s because techno has some kind of expectation of being more involved, more forward thinking, and so people have higher expectations.

I don`t know. I only think that to be taken seriously, you have to work on a professional level in any part of the music biz.

[module]

fair enough DB. if ya dont agree or even see my point, thats fine. its jus comment on the state of things today.

i aint been makin anything or posting much, so i been looking at it from a much more removed angle & what i see is a lot of uncalled for bitchiness. again, not jus on this forum, but on many. and i hear it in the pub when ppl mention a new ep on Electrotoxic or the like.


anyhoo, its jus what i see & doesnt make it the defining truth or any such.

[dirty_bass]

No, you are right, there is more bitchiness, if you want to call it that.
But what it boils down to is that people are more engaged in the music, have a deeper knowledge of it, and are more passionate about it.
So everyone is a critic.

I`m a qualified animator, and where most people would see somethin glike Toy Story and go "Wow the animation was amazing". I`d be all "yeah, it was ok, but there was a lot of short cuts, they repeated a lot of textures, blah blah". It`s not meant as a bitch, it`s more about a level of understanding.

[fatcollective]

too hi?....too low?.....the tune has to be a good tune to a good tune , who knows.... some people like certain styles, some people prefere other styles...if your not in to it dont bother slaggin it!!!! peace ;)

[module]

cool DB.

at the same time, there is a resource there that never was til the last clatter of years.. but i do feel there is a growing attitude of righteousness. and its not everyone, far from it. its a small % of forum users, but i do feel the nasty is growing.

one thing i done a lot was to state that things were very very rough first demo cuts. and that i was aware that levels were out, eq wasnt finished or kick needed work, but still some ppl (and no, not always here, on many other forums) would be quite harsh about the 'shitty bass line' or the 'gay synth' or 'embarassing hi hats' and theres been comments like 'the most boring shit i have ever heard.. give it up u wanker' lol its thos type of comments i see as useless..

i got my thick skin in bands & then djing before i even had a web connection.. as for the past of belfast i lived in AND being a metaller when i was young, ive got well used to abuse lol

the reason i put the thread up is because i KNOW ppl would disagree & maybe take it wrong & that it would spark such discussion. i aint posted a lot lately cos i aint had anything of worth to say, but i thought this might be a good topic.

and theres been some great posts :)

[loopdon]

i can't believe comments like the ones you described were given on this forum :)

i think i know what you mean! criticism is ok if it is constructive and in the end we all know there are and have been loads and loads of records put out that are a waste of vinyl when comparing to lots of the stuff in the production filez. for every loopy piece of shite i upload (kidding..) i could name 10 other records/tracks that don't any better :lol:

the standards are just pretty high i reckon and i think that's good but nobody has the write to call a synth 'gay' or whatever - it's a matter of taste in the end... if the highs are over the top - ok? but ' embarassing' - how much of an art is balancing/eqing the highs supposed to be? i wouldn't care about insults, mate - you should know better :techno:

[Jay Pace]

I have never seen comments like that on this board.

If there were I don't think I'd bother posting here.

Its friendly. Harsh at times, but always in a constructive way.

[module]

theres been the odd comment i would calss as nasty, and it wasnt even my file. like ive said, i see it happening on many forums, not jus here. BOA is prob least guilty of the forums i frequent, and there are very very few nasty rips. think thats maybe the prob with this, i didnt state/ppl assmed it was aimed at BOA & no one else.

ive even heard ppl (friends) sitting in pubs over a beer really rippin on stuff.. ive done it myself.. but usually towards Aphex/Squarepusher fanboys lol but that dont make it right..

it jus seems to me to be a growing culture as the tools are put into more hands via free/stolen s'ware & file sharing via the net.. could be the anonimity of web life that lets ppl be that bit more outspoken with their replies.. i dont know.

i guess its a lot to do with personal ethic/code thing.. ya know, some ppl are big into classing music, others are vinyl purists, some wont play over 135 bpm.. ya know, all types take their whole perspetctive on music different ways.

and what one guy may see as harsh, another may see as kind.. or vice versa.

i do still think its a point.. no matter how small the number or % of it thats happeing, ive never heard so many ppl give opinion on production over the actual musicallity than i have the last while back.

then again, with my backing off production & djing & playing out due to gettin married, maybe ive become detached & more subjective ? who knows.. but i reckon its an alright yarn :)

[dirty_bass]

i do still think its a point.. no matter how small the number or % of it thats happeing, ive never heard so many ppl give opinion on production over the actual musicallity than i have the last while back.



Well, in my opinion, that`s because a lot of techno is seriously lacking in musicality.
Bang some uberschall loops together, crappy rap vocal, a few filter sweeps, cliche offbeat rumble, het presto, more Celery techno.

I think some of it needs to be cut down. For an "underground" music, things seem to have got awefully similar to the pop industry.

[module]

again, youve misunderstood me or i havent explained fully.. it aint jus techno. i see it all forms of music.

but i do follow you on the 'techno by numbers' blueprint.. there is a formula. like the thing amok said with the 'prepare to die' samples.. ive done it myself. i guess everybody has made that kinda indentikit music at some point, and tbh, i dont think thats bad thing. a quick stage with a style to understand how to make it or use elemnts from it. at the same time, punting the same sound for 5 years of 68 records does show a certain.. limit or apathy.

[dirty_bass]

I dunno, I frequent a few other boards of different music.
Hip hop, drum and bass, dubstep, minimal, and I don`t see it so much.
I see critique, but people seem to be less prone to throwing their toys out the pram when critised in my experience.
They tend to understand critisism more and take it on board.

As for just plain slagging, yeah there`s loads of that.
Trance people slag house.
Dubstep slag jump up.
Drum and bass slag house.
Techno people slag trance.
etc

basic tribalism.
no more or less pathetic than people arguing over teams of men kicking a bag of wind around a large grassy area.

[module]

basic tribalism.
no more or less pathetic than people arguing over teams of men kicking a bag of wind around a large grassy area.


ha ha :lol:

indeed

[Komplex]

The Means ? Or The Ends ?

bit of both.

[crime]

Not being funny, but the only time I've even looked at the production forum, and saw someone trying to "Give advice" about a track, the advice given about dealing with a muddy bottom end and unclear kick drum was to and I quote "eq the **** out of the kick drum"...
I switched off at this point (anyone who knows anything about production knows there is a lot to be said about giving sounds space, using eq sparingly ect..)

[TechMouse]

anyone who knows anything about production knows there is a lot to be said about giving sounds space, using eq sparingly ect.
I've seen both of those covered too.

There's a lot of talent, and a suprisingly high level of proficiency when it comes to the more technical side of production.

I think the key thing is you can help someone bring a higher standard of production to their tunes, but you can't really help them make better tunes. If you see what I'm saying.

[crime]

I think the key thing is you can help someone bring a higher standard of production to their tunes, but you can't really help them make better tunes. If you see what I'm saying.

well, it's the "you've either got it or you havn't" thing...
you can't conpensate for crappy ideas with good production.. but if you have a good idea it can shine through a rough production..

[TechMouse]

well, it's the "you've either got it or you havn't" thing...
Sort of, though I wouldn't necessarily go to that extreme either.

I think you can become better at writing tunes, but it's not necessarily something that you can "learn" from any given source. It comes through expermintation and experience.

[dirty_bass]

Yeah, this is true, you can read and read on the technicality of it, but it really comes down to "Ear learning" as I call it.

[module]

well, it's the "you've either got it or you havn't" thing...
you can't conpensate for crappy ideas with good production.. but if you have a good idea it can shine through a rough production..


indeed.. i like this point very much.. well said.

[holotropik]

frequency distribution, audio quality, billion$ hardware this, bloody fantastic PC that, nice balance of frequencies, nice spectrum analyser....blah, blah,blah.

wot about the content, the idea, the concept, the feeling, the emotion, the drive, the gutz, the balls.

If all you listen for is the audio quality of the track then you will miss the point everytime.....

[dirty_bass]

Well, obviously the content needs to be good.
It doesn`t even need to be mentioned.
A crap tune is a crap tune, period.

However a lot of people who can`t produce for toffee simply use the excuse "yeah, but it`s a good tune".

Sure mate it`s a good tune, but it sounds like shit, sort it out.

That`s like, painting a picture, and the picture being aweful, but the idea is good. Or a good film concept, but employing bad actors, poor editing, and shooting straight to 8mm video with poor lighting.

[holotropik]

Well, obviously the content needs to be good.
It doesn`t even need to be mentioned.
A crap tune is a crap tune, period.

However a lot of people who can`t produce for toffee simply use the excuse "yeah, but it`s a good tune".

Sure mate it`s a good tune, but it sounds like shit, sort it out.

That`s like, painting a picture, and the picture being aweful, but the idea is good. Or a good film concept, but employing bad actors, poor editing, and shooting straight to 8mm video with poor lighting.

I do agree.

On Sunday I cooked a roast, a really nice pork quarter. Served it up by slicing the best cuts with minimal fat and just a bit of crackling....mmm, yummy.

Today, wednesday, I sliced off all the fatty chunky rough bits in all shapes and sizes. Even ripped some of the bits off the bones and stir-fried them in some pad-thai sauce.

Just as yummy coz it had texture and flavours the perfect cut meat didnt have.

Of course the stir-fry had to be set-up just perfect in respect of temp, oil, herbs and even my trusty old stir-fry pan....but it makes a great meal in a different way.

Just thought I would clarify where I was coming from....some of the best stir-fry comes from crusty old woks in dingy old kitchens but prepared in a way as to take advantage of that. In the true zen way.

[crime]

Well, obviously the content needs to be good.
It doesn`t even need to be mentioned.
A crap tune is a crap tune, period.

However a lot of people who can`t produce for toffee simply use the excuse "yeah, but it`s a good tune".

Sure mate it`s a good tune, but it sounds like shit, sort it out.


then it obviously isn't that much of a good tune if you're worrying about the production that much surely..
I mean, I think what I'm really trying to say, you han have stuff that sounds raw, and unpolished, and sounds wicked for it (i.e. early dance mania etc), and if you polished it too much it would lose that rawness...

[Miromiric]

well, it's the "you've either got it or you havn't" thing...
you can't conpensate for crappy ideas with good production.. but if you have a good idea it can shine through a rough production..

i agree.

[crime]

However a lot of people who can`t produce for toffee simply use the excuse "yeah, but it`s a good tune".

just re-read that, sorry, disagree, how can you use that as an excuse, it's down to other people to say whether it's good or not.. that's just people talking up their music which is bullshit anyway...

[Jay Pace]

The best stuff I heard at Sonar was jeff mills hammering the **** out of a 909.

The place was full of glitching, popping audiophile wet dreams.

And the best thing to listen to was a piece of kit made a few decades back, together with some inventive drum programming.

Rawness has its merits, but if you are going to be raw, make sure you have decent ideas.

Raw/badly produced + mediocre idea = rubbish.
Basic idea + sublime production can = monster

[Miromiric]

Raw/badly produced + mediocre idea = rubbish.
Basic idea + sublime production can = monster


Raw/badly produced + mediocre idea = rubbish.
Basic idea + sublime production can = rubbish.

[Jay Pace]

http://media.urbandictionary.com/image/large/iseewhatyoudidthere-45311.jpg

[DJAmok]

can't polish a turd is what i say

good production values are nice to have, but in the end it's the tune that makes people dance. i had some people go absolutely nuts on some shitty productions and sometimes people stand still to a perfectly produced track.

[loopdon]

after a few years (ruffly) and referencing to tunes that 'have made it' it should become second nature to have acceptable mixes at least, imo.

[dirty_bass]

Well, obviously the content needs to be good.
It doesn`t even need to be mentioned.
A crap tune is a crap tune, period.

However a lot of people who can`t produce for toffee simply use the excuse "yeah, but it`s a good tune".

Sure mate it`s a good tune, but it sounds like shit, sort it out.


then it obviously isn't that much of a good tune if you're worrying about the production that much surely..
I mean, I think what I'm really trying to say, you han have stuff that sounds raw, and unpolished, and sounds wicked for it (i.e. early dance mania etc), and if you polished it too much it would lose that rawness...

what does polish have to do with good production.

Raw can still be well produced, and a lot of old "raw" stuff was still done properly.

Sorry

But all this talk is just people trying to justify bad skills and lack of learning.

[DJAmok]

true. but some of the most genius works out there are by unexperienced producers who just pour their soul into what they do. those are the true jewels and they don't need perfect mastering to be good

[Sunil]

A lot of old "raw" stuff wasn't polished or very well mastered - the quality of the finished product in general wasn't as important back then, once it was a good tune. Sure the boss of Trax for instance was a crook, he didn't care if the production matched up or not, he didn't have to, because the stuff was selling anyway. Nowadays different things are expected, especially with the tools that are readily available to anyone that has a computer. In some ways though the average "producer" now has to be an engineer too, which creates an extra learning curve and perhaps acts as something of a distraction from the whole process or making a tune.

Put an old Chicago acid house track against for instance a newer acid track by Jesper Dahlback, and you'll notice the obvious difference - yet they could be both raw in their own way, just one is far more polished and modern sounding than the other, that said I think Dahlback is one of the few who has carried on the acid torch and done it well.

You take early Trax, Dance Mania as Crime mentioned, even 808 State stuff - they sound rough as hell but far more rewarding to listen to. If I play something old that lacks in volume or is a bit rough, I just adjust the eqs or crank it up to fit in smoothly. A few years ago I got records on a label called Robox from Austria - really low recordings, and not too well mastered, but by hell were they records I remembered a lot more than something silky smooth and polished. Likewise, today if I hear something raw or not as pristinely produced I'll still get it if I like the tune - there's still not too many records I hear where the production is rubbish, most stuff is ok.

I think the one thing that differentiates "raw" of yesterday to a lot of tracks of today is the minimum amount of elements used in a track. With muli tracking being more prevalant today, I think it is inevitable that production standards, eq/compression etc. would need to be better.

[Sunil]

Likewise, today if I hear something raw or not as pristinely produced I'll still get it if I like the tune

Should have said "rough sounding" instead of "raw" ;)

[crime]

Sorry

But all this talk is just people trying to justify bad skills and lack of learning.

why would a producer need to "justify their lack of skills" if their very raw track was really popular on the dancefloor? I think the idea you have is flawed.

and I constantly despair at the fact when many people hear my new stuff they complain that "it doesn't sound like my old stuff" i.e. v. rough production...
The best selling record I ever did sounds rough as **** (Ctrl.Alt.Delete on djax), but seems to me that there are a lot of people who like it because it's rough, that record has got me more dj and live gigs than any of my better produced releases has yet, how do you explain that? and I cringe when I hear the production values in one way, but in another I love the raw naivity of that sound.. I mean, DB, are you just justifying your lack of a great idea or rocking riff in a track that made the production irrelevent? (This is just a question not a dig)

[dirty_bass]

Tune comes first, then the natural process is to produce it.
I don`t understand the black and white opinions you are spouting mark.
You can have both.
If I`m making a tune that does nothing for me, I bin it, I never go through the motions of polishing it just for the sake of it.
Admittedly, with techno these days, there is a lot of, grab some loops, bash em together, polish em up, compress it all so it`s real LOUD, press the ****er.

It`s the loudness that a lot of people respond to. Horrible.

[loopdon]

i think 'these days' have been going on for at least 6 years now. i swear that's why tribally stuff was everywhere a few years ago (still is?)

and apparently the old drumcode stuff had loads of the loops from no-kicks akai 1+2 in them. but at that time not everyone had access to them..

i have lots of cds (more than i could ever use) and samples in general but i never really get into the loopage really. an odd hihat loop - that's about it. the stuff is easily accessable (due to dsl n flatrates and p2p) and work ethics haven't become any better. i think the loudness race issue will come to an end in a while anyhow. it can't go much louder than disrtoted and clipped waveforms, can it?

or they can start taking the volume knobs of the radios and stereos because people don't know what they are there for anymore :eh: :cheese:

[DannyBlack]

which is more important ?

the actual tune & groove ? or the split frequency of the high end ?

sick to the back teeth of ppl on high horses going on & on about f**king production..

WHO F**KING CARES ????

ppl need to let go of the means & become interested in the ends..

screw pcs.. give everyone a 909 & S2000 see who can cook up a good tune..

can we please get back to makin summat to dance to & forget about who has the most vsti's please ?

Amen, it's all abt the laugh and the craic. f*ck these high horse techno geeks (you know who the f*ck you are, cunts).

Production is important tho' it aint everything.

[crime]

Tune comes first, then the natural process is to produce it.
I don`t understand the black and white opinions you are spouting mark.
You can have both.
If I`m making a tune that does nothing for me, I bin it, I never go through the motions of polishing it just for the sake of it.
Admittedly, with techno these days, there is a lot of, grab some loops, bash em together, polish em up, compress it all so it`s real LOUD, press the ****.

It`s the loudness that a lot of people respond to. Horrible.

Fair enough, but what you were saying yourself was pretty black and white don't you think? and I don't quite get how it could be used as an excuse, if I hear a track and I think it's shit, I'm still going to think it's shit even if the producer says "yeah, but it's supposed to sound like that, it's raw production values", sometimes raw works, sometimes it doesn't.. the record buying public will vote with their wallet anyway, and that's if it makes it that far..

as for compressing the hell out of something making something sound good, that goes to show the lack of any kind of dynamics or musicality. bottom line is a good tune is a good tune whether it has the high production values or not, and I completely agree that high production values can really make a good tune sparkle, but as sunil was saying, there are some absolute classics out there that don't have the high production values..

[crime]

funny how I can type shit but not **** eh?

[DannyBlack]

Tune comes first, then the natural process is to produce it.
I don`t understand the black and white opinions you are spouting mark.
You can have both.
If I`m making a tune that does nothing for me, I bin it, I never go through the motions of polishing it just for the sake of it.
Admittedly, with techno these days, there is a lot of, grab some loops, bash em together, polish em up, compress it all so it`s real LOUD, press the ****.

It`s the loudness that a lot of people respond to. Horrible.

Fair enough, but what you were saying yourself was pretty black and white don't you think? and I don't quite get how it could be used as an excuse, if I hear a track and I think it's shit, I'm still going to think it's shit even if the producer says "yeah, but it's supposed to sound like that, it's raw production values", sometimes raw works, sometimes it doesn't.. the record buying public will vote with their wallet anyway, and that's if it makes it that far..

as for compressing the hell out of something making something sound good, that goes to show the lack of any kind of dynamics or musicality. bottom line is a good tune is a good tune whether it has the high production values or not, and I completely agree that high production values can really make a good tune sparkle, but as sunil was saying, there are some absolute classics out there that don't have the high production values..

:clap: well said.

good is good. there are always gonna be naigh sayers, the type of prat who stands in front of the DJ al night just watching everything he does and at the after session sits there quoting every mistake he made...

good few of 'em lurking around here.

[Stella Boy]

you can polish a turd all day but it will always be a turd

[DannyBlack]

yeah, true. but at least it will shine. nothing worse than a dull turd.

[dirty_bass]

Tune comes first, then the natural process is to produce it.
I don`t understand the black and white opinions you are spouting mark.
You can have both.
If I`m making a tune that does nothing for me, I bin it, I never go through the motions of polishing it just for the sake of it.
Admittedly, with techno these days, there is a lot of, grab some loops, bash em together, polish em up, compress it all so it`s real LOUD, press the ****.

It`s the loudness that a lot of people respond to. Horrible.

Fair enough, but what you were saying yourself was pretty black and white don't you think? and I don't quite get how it could be used as an excuse, if I hear a track and I think it's shit, I'm still going to think it's shit even if the producer says "yeah, but it's supposed to sound like that, it's raw production values", sometimes raw works, sometimes it doesn't.. the record buying public will vote with their wallet anyway, and that's if it makes it that far..

as for compressing the hell out of something making something sound good, that goes to show the lack of any kind of dynamics or musicality. bottom line is a good tune is a good tune whether it has the high production values or not, and I completely agree that high production values can really make a good tune sparkle, but as sunil was saying, there are some absolute classics out there that don't have the high production values..

I agree with you.

but what I`m saying is, high production values and good production values are different things.

I still say most of the old "Raw" stuff was still well produced.
It was raw and unpolished as such, but there was still basic good production going on. not high production values, but good production.

Even the early beltram era stuff, recorded straight to 8 track etc, was then mastered to an extent, but back then people kinda did it the old skool way.
you used an engineer etc.

Nowadays, people get a few plugins, spend a year banging loops together, and think they don`t need to learn any more, hence the steady slip into amateurism that techno has suffered from.

Sure, we don`t need to argue over wether turds can be polished, and that the tune itself is paramount to the production.

but holding some kind of ehtic of professionalism and improvement in a world where any chimp with a pc can make music is surely a good thing right?

[Sunil]

but holding some kind of ehtic of professionalism and improvement in a world where any chimp with a pc can make music is surely a good thing right?

Yeah true, you're right... but aside from this, a good tune (regardless of being expertly polished or not) should tend to just shine through. I think part of the problem though is the lack of adventure on a lot of labels' parts, and indeed the desire to seek out new talent. If a new producer has made a good tune then they should be encouraged to get their music out there and not feel they will be snubbed by a label for not having great mastering. Maybe also the bigger guys and labels aren't in a position to nurture new talent as much these days? These days many people are not getting it their music out there because they think it's not "sounding right" or polished enough yet.

You mentioned earler Steve about people saying "Yeah, but it's a great tune" even if the production wasn't too polished... to be honest I hear the opposite a lot more i.e "Yeah, it's alright, but the production is great"... and *that's* the difference in where a record is bought or skipped these days.

Ok, we all know that a lot of bad stuff makes it to vinyl, and there needs to be a control... but I genuinely feel this is only the smaller picture and that the bigger issue in the hands of the guys who are in a position to be regularly putting out records and who might have a name... and a lot of them (while sounding polished) simply aren't delivering. This is the bigger problem.

[The Overfiend]

but holding some kind of ehtic of professionalism and improvement in a world where any chimp with a pc can make music is surely a good thing right?

Yeah true, you're right... but aside from this, a good tune (regardless of being expertly polished or not) should tend to just shine through. I think part of the problem though is the lack of adventure on a lot of labels' parts, and indeed the desire to seek out new talent. If a new producer has made a good tune then they should be encouraged to get their music out there and not feel they will be snubbed by a label for not having great mastering. Maybe also the bigger guys and labels aren't in a position to nurture new talent as much these days? These days many people are not getting it their music out there because they think it's not "sounding right" or polished enough yet.

You mentioned earler Steve about people saying "Yeah, but it's a great tune" even if the production wasn't too polished... to be honest I hear the opposite a lot more i.e "Yeah, it's alright, but the production is great"... and *that's* the difference in where a record is bought or skipped these days.

Ok, we all know that a lot of bad stuff makes it to vinyl, and there needs to be a control... but I genuinely feel this is only the smaller picture and that the bigger issue in the hands of the guys who are in a position to be regularly putting out records and who might have a name... and a lot of them (while sounding polished) simply aren't delivering. This is the bigger problem.


WHAMMY!!!!!!!!!!!

[dirty_bass]

Well, the problem here lies in the state of the industry.
Labels (even so called "bigger" ones are reluctant to take risks on different music, and new producers, due to the downright shakey climate in the industry.
Distributers are also reluctant to even consider carrying new names or newer fresh music because it isn`t tried and tested.
So there`s this loop of samey-ness and playing safe, that is exactly the reason the pop industry is the way it is.

and until digital distribution takes over, I can only see this getting worse, especially after some news I`ve been told about the state of play.

[Sunil]

especially after some news I`ve been told about the state of play.

Which is?

[TechMouse]

funny how I can type shit but not **** eh?
That's ****ed up.

[dan the acid man]

funny how I can type shit but not **** eh?
That's ****ed up.

nobody likes a ****ing show off :cheese:

[Jay Pace]

Athough I'm a bit partial to a show of ****ing... :eyes:

[dan the acid man]

haha :lol:

[TechMouse]

I heard some people like to **** the odd show off.