pre-beat matching records....

[Jay Pace]

Didn't realise quite how many people did thise.

Rife in D&B - just burn a CD with all your tracks sync'd to the same BPM.

Hawtin's done the same for years apparently.

I've never even considered this, and have always prided myself on being tight in the mix, but beatmatching is fast becoming a forgotten skill in the age of ableton sets etc.

I play off final scratch and it would be piss easy to set tracks into groups of 130bpm, 135, 140 etc and then just mix them in together.

It would still have an analogue feel to it as it would still involve slight mis-timings so wouldn't sound quite as clinical as ableton.

Hmmmmm.....

Not sure on this one. Would have spat at the tought of it 5 years ago, but essentially beatmatching isn't exactly an impressive feat, does nothing for the crowd and the less time you spend doing it, the more you can spend on eq, loops, extra tracks to pop in the mix etc

Whaddaya reck? Cheating of the highest order, or the natural progression of digital djing?

[rhythmtech]

do whatever you want to. people will moan no matter what you do. i personally like to use technology to my advantage but sometimes i do like to go back to basics with just dex and mixer.. its all about enjoyin yourself. if you're havin fun then you're doin it right.

[fatcollective]

there would be no fun in mixing if you didnt have to beat match...in fact it would be pretty boring!! actually in fact...if you didnt have to beat match i would probably be mixing on 15 decks...whoo hoooo!!!

[Jay Pace]

Thats the thing though - wouldn't it be more interesting to mix on 15 decks?

More to djing than getting the records in sync.

[Split-Personality]

I heard this about Andy C a month or two back and I do think its a little bit cheeky, proper DJs still using "sources" to mix their tunes through a mixer should NOT be pre mixing their tunes!

How would you like it if you were at the bar ordering your lady a nice cocktail and they pulled out an empty sprite bottle from the fridge with a pre made Cosmopolitan in it? :eh:

[dan the acid man]

if you'd have asked me this question last year, i'd have said it's a rip off, if you're not beat matching, then you're not dj'ing, but like you, i now realise, beat matching isn't anything that gets the crowd excited, it's not any difficult skill really, and lets face it, the most enjoyable part of mixing is actually playing records you like, not cueing up a mix.

so from now on, im concentrating on using ableton, but on the days i want to get back to having a spin on vinyl, i will.

Like rythmtech said, do what you want, you can never please everybody, but as long as you're enjoying it, and anyody else who's listening is, then job done.

imo of course

[Jay Pace]

Be very, very suprised to find that Andy C was doing that.

John B does it though, and then spends all the time he would have otherwise spent in the mix "working on other aspects of his performance" - read doing his nails, chatting up girls and signing autographs.

I reckon if it frees up your time to do more interesting things then its a goer.
Not sure if I'm not too lazy to bother though. Still haven't really managed to digitise my vinyl, let alone pre-beat match it.

What would be the easiest way to change a wav's tempo? Ableton always seems to go out after a while, no matter how tight I try and set it.

[loopdon]

i think this can be a good idea. at least the more melodic tracks can be in a certain key which changes when you pitch them up.
(different topic -> mixing in key)

see these links:

http://www.mixedinkey.com/?gclid=CPm1pO7h64UCFQoOUgodIxHCwQ

and this

http://www.beatmixing.com/harmonic.html

what works with what (useful for production as well):

http://www.harmonic-mixing.com/charts/keychart.mv

demo is very useful. you can add a little sticker with bpm/key to your records if you like :)

actually i think when i make a track i produce it say at 140 bpm. i may sound stupid but then it is made to play at 140 bpm +/- not at 140. i would have set the sequencer at 145 if i wanted it like that. difficult subject i know because others might like it at 145 bpm or 137 or so.

.. but i don't play out to public so...

[fatcollective]

Thats the thing though - wouldn't it be more interesting to mix on 15 decks?

More to djing than getting the records in sync.

obviously there is more to djing than getting the records in sync??

isnt this the whole thrill of djing, fine tuning the records to work together.....once the mix is in, this is where i get my buzz from, but if it was already the same speed im not sure i would get the same buzz out of djing???

[sleepy]

Thats the thing though - wouldn't it be more interesting to mix on 15 decks?

More to djing than getting the records in sync.

obviously there is more to djing than getting the records in sync??

isnt this the whole thrill of djing, fine tuning the records to work together.....once the mix is in, this is where i get my buzz from, but if it was already the same speed im not sure i would get the same buzz out of djing???

well said i completly agree

[Jay Pace]

Different strokes I suppose

I get more of a buzz out of what you can do with a crowd, or with what you can do with tunes building layers than I get from the act of holding a tricky mix in sync... but I take your point, take away the challenge and you might take away the sense of achievement.

[fatcollective]

Different strokes I suppose

I get more of a buzz out of what you can do with a crowd, or with what you can do with tunes building layers than I get from the act of holding a tricky mix in sync... but I take your point, take away the challenge and you might take away the sense of achievement.

take away the challenge and you might take away the sense of achievement....<<<<< Spot on!! ;)

[robin m]

I think we're all just a bit bitter cos we spent all that time learning to mix and now the next generation don't have to bother...

Youth of today, don't know they're born :lol:

[dirty_bass]

Once you`ve been mixing for long enough, is the simple act of beat syncing 2 tunes with very similar 4x4 beats, in closely matched bpm`s anyway, much of a challenge?
I stopped mixing when it stopped being a challenge.
But surely the tru skill is HOW you mix, and WHEN you mix and WHAT you mix.
Not the mechanical process behind it, which I`ve seen mastered by 10 year olds at DJ training clinics.

Pre matched tunes, who cares? Wouldn`t stop me from jigging about

[Jay Pace]

But surely the tru skill is HOW you mix, and WHEN you mix and WHAT you mix.

This is my current thinking. I can see how personally having it matched might take something away from the experience, but I think it would help my performance to have one less thing taking up time that could be better spent on something else.

And so. The conversion process begins...

[fatcollective]

Once you`ve been mixing for long enough, is the simple act of beat syncing 2 tunes with very similar 4x4 beats, in closely matched bpm`s anyway, much of a challenge?
I stopped mixing when it stopped being a challenge.
But surely the tru skill is HOW you mix, and WHEN you mix and WHAT you mix.
Not the mechanical process behind it, which I`ve seen mastered by 10 year olds at DJ training clinics.

Pre matched tunes, who cares? Wouldn`t stop me from jigging about

mate i have heard the best of Djs fvck up, djing and making a great set is always a challange, but a fun one at that!!!

[dubs]

Part of my enjoyment with mixing is the potential to fail. When you succeed it makes it all the more enjoyable. When i'm mixing on radio or in a club the skill of bringing all necessary aspects together is what keeps it interesting and challenging.

That said i can see the points others are making. But personnally i rather perform and watch dj's flying by their pants.

[rhythmtech]

Part of my enjoyment with mixing is the potential to fail. When you succeed it makes it all the more enjoyable. When i'm mixing on radio or in a club the skill of bringing all necessary aspects together is what keeps it interesting and challenging.

That said i can see the points others are making. But personnally i rather perform and watch dj's flying by their pants.

TBH m8. after 12 years of doing it, the potential to fly by my pants is gone (unless i start adding crack into the set-up). i'd rather focus on the musical side of it. im bored with counting in my head.

[loopdon]

@rythmtech: that's what it boils down to imo. i can see why djs like liebing etc. don't bother about beatmatching (that much) any more :cheese:

[Sunil]

Keep beat matching in.

Re: Liebing - He has become possibly one of the worst DJs going since he ditched playing records. Fancy FX over the same loop for two hours isn't DJ-ing, it's just boring.

[loopdon]

i really wanted to add: but don't use the spare time to overuse fx :cheese:

[Jay Pace]

I'd use the spare time to play on more decks.

Much as I would love to be tight as hell on four, its never, ever going to happen without a bit of help.

Agreed on liebing. Saw him in Barcelona. Chugging yawnfest, no variation, no human element.

[dirty_bass]

Do whatever you are comfortable with really.
If you are feeling hit, hopefully the crowd will too.

[tOM B]

i get a buzz out of working the vinyl to get it in time - i really enjoy it. however i can see that it can consume time spent working on other areas of your dj set. from my point of view i'd rather mix vinyl when i'm djing and have to beatmix; if i want to play the kind of set where i'm thinking about other stuff i'd rather do a live set.

That said it doesn't matter much to me what people are doing when i'm dancing as long as the tunes are good and the order they go in gives the set the right flow. In fact i love going to nights where there are some people mixing with vinyl, others using ableton, doing live sets etc. Variety is the spice of life eh? :cheese:

[rhythmtech]

i get a buzz out of working the vinyl to get it in time - i really enjoy it. however i can see that it can consume time spent working on other areas of your dj set. from my point of view i'd rather mix vinyl when i'm djing and have to beatmix; if i want to play the kind of set where i'm thinking about other stuff i'd rather do a live set.

That said it doesn't matter much to me what people are doing when i'm dancing as long as the tunes are good and the order they go in gives the set the right flow. In fact i love going to nights where there are some people mixing with vinyl, others using ableton, doing live sets etc. Variety is the spice of life eh? :cheese:

:clap:

[TechMouse]

I heard this about Andy C a month or two back and I do think its a little bit cheeky, proper DJs still using "sources" to mix their tunes through a mixer should NOT be pre mixing their tunes!

How would you like it if you were at the bar ordering your lady a nice cocktail and they pulled out an empty sprite bottle from the fridge with a pre made Cosmopolitan in it? :eh:

This is a different issue though.

On one side there's pre-mixing tunes... that is putting two tunes mixed together on a CD, and then mixing that into a set.

Then, there's having all your tunes at the same BPM so you can concentrate on other things.

The former is a bit of a cop out. The latter is perfectly fine IMHO. Getting two records in time is a piece of piss, and the real talent is how you blend, cut and manipulate the tunes. Not to mention tune selection.

[Little_Fella!]

Just thinking about the idea of 'taking away the challenge takes away the sense of achievement'....

If the challenge of beat matching is taken away then surely that free's up your mind to create for yourself a new challenge in the mix...

You can set certain diffuculty levels throughout ur set so that at times u find yourself breaking into a sweat to get it right, and others so that u can relax a little and get with the crowd...

[djfilthmonger]

it doesnt matter what is envoled whether its using ableton , cd decks, vinyal....
its the end result thats being played on to the floor

[Jay Pace]

Set about 100 tracks to 135 over the weekend.
Acid is a crafty little tool.

Plus, discovered some mint new mixes - stuff that you wouldn't usually dream of chucking together, and you can just test it out in an instant. Add to that creating bootleg types, extending intros, so much stuff can be done.

Can't believe I never thought of this before. Going to buy a new CD deck to celebrate, give myself a new challlenge.

[dirty_bass]

This is great.
I`m genuinly impressed by the more open minded attitudes expressed on here.

3 years ago in the place, people would be spitting at anything that didn`t involve 1210`s and vinyl.

Tech should embrace technology.

[TechMouse]

This is great.
I`m genuinly impressed by the more open minded attitudes expressed on here.

3 years ago in the place, people would be spitting at anything that didn`t involve 1210`s and vinyl.

Tech should embrace technology.

It's been a necessary change.

Everyone and their dog can mix vinyl on 1210s.

Where's the magic in that?

[[F/17]]

probably pioneer should introduce a new product, smthing like "the pleaser™" consisting of multi-input digital player device plus mixer (of course, as a single device – no extra wires needed)
featuring
“match ‘em!” button for precise bpm-matching
And
“tune ‘em” button for extreme harmony!

press “please ‘em” button and it will start showing you funky dj moves on the built-in LCD full-color screen – if you repeat what it shows the crowd will be definitely pleased!!!

further versions of the product will contain special “get it all played” function – no need to choose tracks!! just come, wave your hands and get your money!

[TechMouse]

]probably pioneer should introduce a new product, smthing like "the pleaser™" consisting of multi-input digital player device plus mixer (of course, as a single device – no extra wires needed)
featuring
“match ‘em!” button for precise bpm-matching
And
“tune ‘em” button for extreme harmony!

press “please ‘em” button and it will start showing you funky dj moves on the built-in LCD full-color screen – if you repeat what it shows the crowd will be definitely pleased!!!

further versions of the product will contain special “get it all played” function – no need to choose tracks!! just come, wave your hands and get your money!
I think Sasha has one of these.

It's called the Maven.

[loopdon]

i think there is a sort of hamrony matching thang on the pioneer 800 ?

[rhythmtech]

]probably pioneer should introduce a new product, smthing like "the pleaser™" consisting of multi-input digital player device plus mixer (of course, as a single device – no extra wires needed)
featuring
“match ‘em!” button for precise bpm-matching
And
“tune ‘em” button for extreme harmony!

press “please ‘em” button and it will start showing you funky dj moves on the built-in LCD full-color screen – if you repeat what it shows the crowd will be definitely pleased!!!

further versions of the product will contain special “get it all played” function – no need to choose tracks!! just come, wave your hands and get your money!
I think Sasha has one of these.

It's called the Maven.

yeah that he called built on open code technology and is now trying to copyright!!! twat!

[ERROR404]

Its all personal preference isn't it. At the end of the day, the majority of the crowd don't know anyway, and as long as they are enjoysing it, that is what an artist is there to do. its their job.

I have a few gripes with this whole digital mixing though.

A bad Dj is a bad DJ, whether on decks, CDs, Ableton Traktor, whatever. By poor i mean poor track selection, boring mixing, poor flow, monotonous mono-tone sets etc etc. Bad beat matching only made this blatantly obvious. Ableton / TRaktor / digital mixing has made it easy fro these bad DJs to be even worse, because they have a world of FX and bad music at their finger tips to assault us with.
I don't do live sets just yet, becasue i'm not happy with the standard i am at with it, and i've been working on live performance stuff for 2 years. A live set IMO should be more than a DJ set, more interactive, more focussed and more adaptable. Unfortunately a lot of "live" sets you hear these days are less live than they have ever been, with pre-programmed sets, pre-matched or automatched beats. Why do we want to listen to artists doing this? Erm... we don;t - buy a CD and stay at home.
IMO if you're bored mixing on decks you're not being creative enough, if you can knock out 40 beat perfect and creative, interesting mixes in an hour, use another deck - an instand 3rd dimention to vinyl mixing. I can see how people get bored mixing on vinyl if all the do is beat match a tracks and then blend it over - wheres the skill in that? thats not MIXING that is PLAYING a sequence of records - IMO mixing is about making your own sound out of tunes you are playing.

Basically, nothing can add creativity excpet a human input, whether that be on vinyl, CDs, live, ableton or traktor - whatever.
Digital mixing has only made it easier for people with no talent to pass through, mediocrity in hand. The people who innovate will always use whatever they can to progress their sound.

[Jay Pace]

Good post

We had James Ruskin down at BlackBox last night, and he was ****ign unreal
3 decks and about 8 channels on ableton, some channels loops, some whole tracks
The end result is just formidable, and really unique to his style of performance.

I've found since matching things I can whack in loads of sampled loops, add 3 or 4 decks into the equation and be loads more creative because I don't have to worry about keeping 4 or more inputs in time each with variable speed controls.

You're right though. Digital just hides mediocrity behind beatmatching.

[ERROR404]

I've been looking for some kind of device to provide midi timcode from audio input - I'm trying to use ableton with decks for a kind of hybrid set - is there anything out there? Is this the kind of thing Ruskin was doing? Pretty sure Surgeon is doing something similar too... :)

[Jay Pace]

Ruskin used around 8 channels on ableton controlled using a evolution midi controller, each channel with a volume and bass filter. Then he just mixed vinyl into ableton, always keeping an ableton loop in for reference. Using 3 other decks.

That man is the shizzle, everything I aspire towards doing.

[ERROR404]

ah - kind the opposite way to what i was planning, but that seems more logical. Damb straight, Ruskin is the shizzle....

Did you hear Kevin Saunderson at Glade, Jay?

[loopdon]

i still don't quite get what ruskin did, i guess that's the heat in here

[dtl]

Saw Tim Exile making live loops with his micl and samples at the glade, mad voices on rotten beats, tune as it go along... Thats what I call LIVE!

[mattboyslim]

Ruskin used around 8 channels on ableton controlled using a evolution midi controller, each channel with a volume and bass filter. Then he just mixed vinyl into ableton, always keeping an ableton loop in for reference. Using 3 other decks.

That man is the shizzle, everything I aspire towards doing.last time i saw him, i'm pretty sure he had one of the uc33 faders assigned to tempo, so he could ride it just like a deck. i do the same with a knob on my doepfer. does the job once you're used to it