weird eq query

[Jay Pace]

Right

Whenever I'm mastering (or attempting to master) I roll off the bass at around 30-45hz.

But when I put the filter on, the overall volume always jumps by about 3db.

Why?

Why does cutting the bass make the track louder? Do all filters produce resonance at the cutoff frequency or summat? Have tried this with TC mastering EQ and the Waves EQs, and is always the same. Even with 0 resonance set the volume jumps considerably by running a filter.

Not a huge problem mind, just a bit curious why this is...

[RDR]

its about headroom i think... and percieved volume. bass often accounts for 60-80% of the actual power of music..not loudness, as the two are different things

remove those powerful low freqs and you get an overall jump in volume.

[Jay Pace]

Nah, on the waves eq, with a signal bubbling just below 0...

Pop a 40hz filter on it and the signal starts clipping at around +3db

Surely filtering out the bass shouldn't result in an increase in signal?
Or am I just being simple about something?

[BloodStar]

I am thinking, that if it jumps suddenly after you place filter, maybe it was heavilly compressed before, and as the bass took a lot of headroom, the volume raises after you filter it out..

[Jay Pace]

hmmm... does make some sense

The way I see it, if you have a whole, and you cut away a part, you should have less than the whole, not more. But I suppose it doesn't necessarily work like that

[BloodStar]

it is weird, and the way i see it, is same as you described above. after cuttin a part of a whole you should have less and not more.hmm.
i will check, when i'll be home. this interests me and i am not sure if i ever noticed such behavior...weird.

[herman]

Might sound silly but have you placed the eq after the compressior/limiter in the audio chain ? if you have then the eq isn't being compressed/limited so will overload if your not carefull.

[Jay Pace]

Nah, I would understand that.

This is just the eq, all on its own, acting weirdly.

[eyeswithoutaface]

if im understanding right, do your cuts at production stage, not mastering, as your cutting the bass on the whole track right now, and not just certain elements like a bassline or a kick. So if your putting a filter over a whole mix that has been compressed already then your going to get peaks popping up quite harsh by a few db once the filter kicks in

that's if im understanding your post correctly, as ive never come across this problem really

[Jay Pace]

I do that anyway, but its fairly standard mastering procedures...

Roll off frequencies below 40hz
Multiband compression
Multiband limiting

I'm wondering whether all filters have some form of resonance? Any boost at 40hz is likely to send the signal crazy...

[eyeswithoutaface]

yeah, well i dunno i play most of my mixes by ear and i dont really indulge in specific mastering at the end of each track, i master as i go and then just tweak the mix at the final stage really, just me personally but i find following most standard procedures dont always get the results that i want, for me personally. If it's sounding sweet on the monitors and there are no obvious mistakes to fix up then i try not to worry about things like this too much, as i find myself worrying about even more less fundamental things and next thing its production information overload time and my brain ultimately shuts down :)

[loopdon]

eyes... i see where you are coming from regarding the overload issue ;)

[Jay Pace]

I kinda follow the same line - master and compress as you go...

But its nice to know that at the end you can always squeeze the sound a bit more and get some punch by running it through some limiters.

The icing on the cake.

[eyeswithoutaface]

well yeah i guess, different strokes for different folks, that's the beauty of production, people have their own little nuances and ways of working

pity it doesnt show in most records :(

[loopdon]

it can be a nice experience to just use levels - then pan - then eq on the mixer channels and get that as nice as possible (using the best suiting/sounding samples) and then use compression over the lot in the techno-typical soundshaping way. though compression allways ****s with eq in a way, too.

maybe a good way of practicing??

[eyeswithoutaface]

well that's where the true art of compression and subtractive eq comes into play really

definately a good practice as you say. Some of my most enjoyable production sessions are just learning things or practicing a certain technique instead of trying to work on tracks for release everytime i sit down to things

[loopdon]

well yeah i guess, different strokes for different folks, that's the beauty of production, people have their own little nuances and ways of working

pity it doesnt show in most records :(

dunno about 'most' but i am not an avid record-buyer anymore. new technoy vinyl that is. bought 50 records cheap from ebay, though, just waiting for them to arrive :cheese:

i guess alot of that comes down to not having an 'in-person' mentor or teacher or whatever. you l-i-y and d-i-y...

+ we are expected to do much more as one person than any bandmember would be expected to do. compose/arrange/engineer/(pre-)master under what i think are often less than ideal circumstances (no acoustic treatment etc).

tools are pretty much freely available and more than peeps from say 5- 10 or longer years ago would have ever allowed themselves to dream of --- but than can be bad as well: we're spoilt for choices

/errr .. yes