Why Vinyl WILL Die ;)

[module]

http://www.residentadvisor.net/feature_view.asp?ID=755

[Heroes]

its says: quote "vinyl's future can’t be anything beyond a collectible novelty"

hasnt it always been that?

[eyeswithoutaface]

well not really, not for those putting it out and relying on it for their income.

interesting read

[Jay Pace]

If I made a living selling plastic I'd be pretty worried right now.

If I made a living selling music I wouldn't be overly concerned.

[eyeswithoutaface]

good point Jay. I really think its time for more people to start thinking outside the box of vinyl only releasing. I mean it is a lovely feeling when you get your pressed records back in, but ultimately, for me anyway, i'd be happy that my music was being released regardless of medium

[Martin Dust]

http://www.residentadvisor.net/feature_view.asp?ID=755

Heard it all before and it's so full of holes...

[Dustin Zahn]

Vinyl will eventually die...but that's because the oil is drying up and it will be rationed sooner than a lot of people think.

[Heroes]

well not really, not for those putting it out and relying on it for their income.

well yea thats one side of the fence, but theres the other side

[RDR]

The simple truth is that vinyl isnt a major 'Consumer' format... you cant go to currys and buy a record player. Consumer formats die, thats that.

it'll happen sooner or later. I teach kids in the studio who'v never picked up vinyl, whose parents dont own vinyl, who are almost scared when they have to use even a final scratch record to practice DJing with...

Such a shame.

[MARKEG]

no, this is bulllshit. that guy's article does not go into enough depth to even make me think any different than i do already. i'm a huge collector of both vinyl and mp3 right now and i still love vinyl...

so does the crowd when they can see me play it. so does my need to be 'ahead of the game', cause record shops have in place something that informaton overload will never have. mp3 format is good but until the mp3 format has an 'automatic' mastering plant then its behind.

i'll put my neck out and say, there's still years to go in vinyl. and i for one will be there.

[RDR]

I wish what you said mark will be the truth. but i fear not. it'll be a sad day for me when people stop making it... i guess the bigger question needs to be ..who actually makes the machinery for the pressing plants and when will it stop being made?

Anyone know?

[Martin Dust]

I'm with Mark on this, vinyl sales are actually up this year and more and more indie bands are cutting 7"s - it's not going away for a long, long time.

[conor256]

well the article hit the nail on the head when it said ... 'vinyl is sexy, dj culture was founded on the medium, and we all owe a debt to the history of wax'....
vinyl is more fun to play with imo... and i do think it looks sexy... and i do belive punters appreciate it more when they see someone rapidly trudging through a box o' vinyl behind the decks than constantly looking at a laptop.... if anything it looks harder work...
i can fully appreciate the benefits for dj's/producers/labels for the the accessability of the digital format.... but you can't feel the mp3 in your hands, you cant get the enjoyment/excitement from it that you get when the postman comes wi' a 12 x 12 parcel full of goodies and you dont know which order it is he is bringing...... the opening of a piece of vinyl for the first time when the inner sleeve is still closed, reading the smart arse remarks cut into the end of the vinyl grooves, reading the sleeve notes and looking at the cover for the 20th time and only noticing something new on it that you cant belive you overlooked all those other times... none of these experiences you can have from mp3....
you dont have the feeling of satisfaction with an mp3 that you get recieving a perfectly cut piece of vinyl which is heavy to the feel and which the needle rides perfectly..... okay... wi mp3 you dont have the frustration of warped,scratched, dusty records being played ... but as long as there are people like me who love receiving , playing, hoarding, swapping vinyl i belive and hope that people will keep putting it out!!

[Jay Pace]

Still think final scratch is the best of all worlds.

All the human timing, feel, and tactility of vinyl and none of bad points - scratched records, heavy boxes, crap pressing quality which varies from record to record.

I'll always use decks because I like them. I think so long as djs support vinyl there will be a market for it, but it will become more and more niche. It will evenutally become a format purely for djs, I'm pretty sure everything will eventually get released on multiple formats simultaneously (records need to sell after all), djs buy vinyl, public buy mp3 or cd.

There will always be a market for it, just wish people would hurry the hell up and start releasing on mp3. Getting tired of buying vinyl only to record it as a wav and convert it into an mp3. Plenty of producers missing a trick here....

[astonish]

and storing MP3s is infinitely easier than vinyl. In fact, the storage issue was a major motivation behind my decision to switch – I’d simply run out of room. Now my entire collection is stored on one 300GB hard drive[
This is very much true but it also show the downside of it imo. Harddrives, no mather if they are inside a laptop or not, are not really build to move around a lot and being shipped or what ever. I've seen it ones that a dj came to play at a local club having his laptop with him and a few minutes before the performance he realised his HD was not working anymore, no vinyl with him to make a performace or something so the show wass canceled... major bummer, no fee for the performance, lost almost all his music (and therefore all the money spend on it because he had no back up of his files..) neede to start over again...
Now i'm a vinyl addict..
when i play a Otis Redding album on vinyl and close my eyes it is almost like im there in the studio, i most defenitly don't have this feeling when i play a cd or mp3 file..
Same goes with EDM... vinyl imo gives it something extra and i cannot really explain what it is
i also with Mark on this.
I think technology will come to it that we can press our own vinyl at home and buy this equipment relativily cheap... perhaps new form of wax that will last ... Who knows what they come up with next..
But ...

I teach kids in the studio who'v never picked up vinyl, whose parents dont own vinyl, who are almost scared when they have to use even a final scratch record to practice DJing with...
I think this is the kill...

[detfella]

I'm with Mark on this, vinyl sales are actually up this year and more and more indie bands are cutting 7"s - it's not going away for a long, long time.

yep and in fact single 7"s are outselling cd singles for the same artists in many cases. problem is the whole of the singles market is reducing

[eyeswithoutaface]

the singles market has been declining for years.

i dont think its healthy to think that vinyl definately will not die at some point, of course there are a good few years left, but one day, maybe not even in our lifetime, supplies of oil will hit such a drastic point that it is inevitable that alot of things will cease to be produced. Not just vinyl, but all kinds of oil based products, and there are way more than people think. Check out fractional distillation, might make things a bit clearer to some people.

[dirty_bass]

Vinyl won`t die for a while.
Dance music on vinyl will.
Dance music is unfashionable and has a shrinking, aging fan base.
The music doesn`t engage the younger generations in almost any way, and as there are no bands crossing over into dance any more, I can`t see any hope for it.

and who cares anyway, change is to be embraced, in this, the foul year of our lord 2006.

[Martin Dust]

Many things have changed and it isn't as simple as just naming one factor because there are many that have impacted not only on vinyl but music sales as a whole.

Getting back to "that" article, it was written to cause a fuss and has been spammed on every forum known to man and if you read it you can suss that it's part bollocks starting with his 4 hour set bullshit, how the **** do you mix stuff you've not heard for a start...

The singles market has be declining because the industry ****ed it completely up by marketing everything at teenage girls, this is pretty much what happened to Smash Hits, in the end it was taking to 8-11yr old girls, not cool and not something anyone else would aspire to - they painted themselves into a corner and it cost them their jobs.

And now that we have music on "tap" it holds no value to todays youth as it's all-ways free and "there". But to believe it was ever going to stay the same would be a tad stupid, RCA for example never made any money from their label(s) but they did make money from selling record players, another example of how strange the biz world is one famous book store in NYC makes more money from selling coffee than it does books and if you look what Virgin and Tower have had to do to their stores to survive it makes for an interesting biz model. If you don't change, you are ****ed...

Oil is going knowhere for a long time and won't really be a factor in what happens to vinyl, it has never impacted on the price and I don't see a reason why it should start now.

Itunes isn't the answer either for Techno artists, take a look at their charts and then take a look every week - they don't change much do they - Born Slippy anyone :) Selling MP3's/Wavs will help small labels but it won't pay the bills so for now you just have to box clever...Vinyl will still be here for a long time yet

[Sunil]

Yeah, spot on Martin.

All the fortune tellers saying it's going to soon disappear in dance music are pretty wrong.

A few question to think about:
What 'big' labels don't put out vinyl anymore? How many records that you see on record review pages aren't on vinyl? How many labels who switched solely to digital have seen their profile drop a lot?

The fact is that a vinyl release holds more weight than a digital release, for many many reasons.

Vinyl is going nowhere.

[Jay Pace]

OK, but go back a mere ten years ago.

CD decks in their infancy. No final scratch. No ableton djs. Mp3s still a clunky format. No broadband.

And look where we are now. Now guess where we will be in ten years time.

There's life in the old dog yet, but its an archaic format for those growing up now. The scene can't survive on a bunch of aging vinyl afficionado's. Try explaining to a kid why he has to pay 9 times as much for a piece of plastic than an mp3. For those without the heritage, without the fond memories, vinyl is a clunky obselete format championed by an ever dwindling group of fogeys.

[Martin Dust]

OK, but go back a mere ten years ago.

CD decks in their infancy. No final scratch. No ableton djs. Mp3s still a clunky format. No broadband.

And look where we are now. Now guess where we will be in ten years time.




Like I said, things have to change, but vinyl as a format will be here to stay for a long while yet, just accept that it's not mass market anymore and we'll be fine...




There's life in the old dog yet, but its an archaic format for those growing up now. The scene can't survive on a bunch of aging vinyl afficionado's. Try explaining to a kid why he has to pay 9 times as much for a piece of plastic than an mp3. For those without the heritage, without the fond memories, vinyl is a clunky obselete format championed by an ever dwindling group of fogeys.

I disagree and so do the recent sales figures...

[Jay Pace]

I'm not talking about the present though, I'm talking about its future. Kids aren't buying into it as much, and the older amongst us grow out of it eventually.
So with a high drop out rate at the older end of the spectrum, and a low uptake at the younger end, there's trouble afoot.

There's always a heritage factor. I took home crates and crates of old soul and motown from my dad. Some absolute gems in there. I'll always have love for it, and I know others will. I'm not convinced that the average teenager is that arsed though...

[Martin Dust]

Forget the mass market and the average teenager tho, who is trying to sell them 12"s - I'm certianly not, that's why we do CD's/MP3/WAVs - that market has gone forever and the soon we all accept it the better...

[Jay Pace]

True dat.
Wonder how it will affect the turntable market? Turntables outsold guitars at one point. Loadsa money poured into R&D and now there are zillions of new decks on the market. Who's buying them?

[RDR]

Vinyl won`t die for a while.
Dance music on vinyl will.
Dance music is unfashionable and has a shrinking, aging fan base.
The music doesn`t engage the younger generations in almost any way, and as there are no bands crossing over into dance any more, I can`t see any hope for it.

and who cares anyway, change is to be embraced, in this, the foul year of our lord 2006.

Amen brother... same point as i was making.

Vibrancy comes from the young. if they aint vibing neither is the object.

im not old. :paranoid:

[RDR]

how the **** do you mix stuff you've not heard for a start...


You ARE joking i hope? ..

i dont know where to begin. ;)

[Martin Dust]

Same as any industry, if they sales aren't there - they'll make less and do less R and D, biz 101 says full shelves equals negative equity = bad

[RDR]

Oil is going knowhere for a long time and won't really be a factor in what happens to vinyl, it has never impacted on the price and I don't see a reason why it should start now.

Bang on.

The way i see it is that people get confused between the argument about making money form vinyl sales and vinyl as a format.

Making money on vinyl... good solid money, thats in some doubt - i dont have the personal experience of selling vinyl (YET) to comment on this, but from what pepople have said they find it difficult mainly because of the logistics.

Keeping the format alive. Why not... its a funny old game, minidisc is dying a death.. 8 track did too... CD seems to be under attack.. tape is going.. as the oldest method of reproducing sound, vinyl (Or waveforms captured in the physical analog method) has been around since victorian times (wax cyclinders.. essentially the same method..) It may well be around for ever...

now if only they could make those japanese laser vinyl players cheaper...

[el salvador]

i dont care if the vinyl does die, as long as we can always get new techno sounds somehow.

the king is dead................long live techno :toast:

[tonyc2002]

the thing that worrys me is if vinyl does go the way of the dinosaur and mp3 completely takes over the world will it make music less special? will there no longer be a need to search out that "classic tune" from years ago? maybe its a good thing, maybe the mass availability of music will encourage more dj's to create there own stuff just to set themselves apart.

Also i think that the ease and relative cheapness that people can get into music production these days is and will have a major impact on vinyl sales because is someone going to bother learning about making records when he/she can just get it published and sold online and target the giant iPOD generation....i personally would like to support vinyl because A:- ive got shit loads of records, and B:- ive spent a lot of money on them!!!! oh wel fuk it!!!....whatever happens i think the advancement of technology will ultimately spell the end for vinyl (i reckon 15 years tops) and the future probaly lies in hybrid solutions such as final scratch.

[Sunil]

how the **** do you mix stuff you've not heard for a start...


You ARE joking i hope? ..

i dont know where to begin. ;)

Why is he joking?

The author from what I took in from that article is the stereotypical 'cool' DJ priding himself on playing "upfront" music and getting lots of promos... when the fact is he should probably try a bit harder in approaching DJing tham merely playing just the latest tunes he gets in the post. How the hell do you expect to give people a proper set if you're playing four hours of music you only got that week?!

[Dustin Zahn]

Oil is going knowhere for a long time and won't really be a factor in what happens to vinyl, it has never impacted on the price and I don't see a reason why it should start now.

http://www.peak-oil.org/

If you don't believe we're already experiencing the effects of peak oil then you're in la la land. For right now we're okay on vinyl production prices, but the consumer prices are skyrocketing. Not only is vinyl partially made with oil, but the machines that press vinyl rely on it. It's getting costly to operate those machines. Once it's pressed up...the trucks, planes, trains, and boats rely on oil/gas/petrol to get the records from the plants to the shops and finally into our hands. If this scene makes it long enough to the time period where we start having serious global issues...well, I have a feeling importing techno vinyl will be relatively low on the list of priorities for shipping ports.

Let's look at it from your angle now. Say myself and the rest of the scientists are wrong and peak oil is bullshit. Oil is still on the rise everyday and its driving shipping costs up big time. Here in the United States, an imported record costs an average of $12US...probably around £5 if my math is right. Now tack on the U.S. sales tax per state, which is probably an average of 6 cents. Rounding off, you're looking at $12.50 for one record, which we all know there is usually about one decent track on it. It sucks when you drop $25 at the record shop and come home with two tracks. For this reason alone, many people I know have either quit DJing or stopped buying vinyl. The mark up at an average U.S. record shop is only $3 so the only people who are really making any money is the shipping companies, who in return also give a good part of their money to big oil. Economics baby.

[Ritzi Lee]

As long as there are music purists, vinyl won't die.
As long as there are producers making music the oldschool way,
it will always sound great on vinyl....

[Spire]

I heard on the 'net that vinyl sounds way better than MP3s. This got me thinking... I hate how when you go to the movies or IMAX and the voice behind the screen says "Welcome to IMAX! Featuring a four-story high screen and fully uncompressed THX digital audio!" I'm like... wtf? Put the audio on vinyl! This digital shit is too clean! GRRR</sarcasm>

Yeah, digital blows... and it's not cool whatsoever... argh ;D

[Spire]

Oh yeah, buying vinyl is just a hobby like buying model cars or beanie babies. Model cars will be around as long as theres plastic, beanie babies will be around as long as theres beans...

[Jay Pace]

I am committed to playing music on whatever format is deemed coolest.

[eyeswithoutaface]

Oh yeah, buying vinyl is just a hobby like buying model cars or beanie babies. Model cars will be around as long as theres plastic, beanie babies will be around as long as theres beans...

well that's kinda the point, as plastic is one of the lower by products of oil, as i said earlier, fractional distillation, vinyl is made up of the lowest by product of oil, the really crappy residue, kinda bitumen, so when, and this will happen like i said probably not in our lifetime, but with the situation with oil how it is already, globally, in say maybe 50, 60, 100 years no one knows exactly, but there will come a time when the oil literaly runs out, and when it happens, it's the least important products that people will notice dropping off the shelves gradually over the years. It wont be overnight of course, but by logic and todays current climates, it's gonna happen one day. So those model car's will also slowly start to become harder to get hold of as the oil does.

one of the second least important by products of oil in terms of quality is crude oil, mostly used as shipping fuel. So over time there will be less and less shipping options as the fuel becomes more scarce and expensive.

as ive said i really dont see it happening in our lifetime, and i hope it doesnt i'd like to see vinyl survive just as much as the next man.

[eyeswithoutaface]

this debate has got to be in the top 3 ever techno internet debates by now surely? :)

[Spire]

Jay Pace: Then go buy a guitar and get on stage, the chicks won't even care about the fact that you totally suck and your amp's speaker is blown. ;D DJs don't got shit on lead guitarists! Or buy a TC Helicon and sing your way into their hearts...

[Spire]

this debate has got to be in the top 3 ever techno internet debates by now surely? :)

Yeah. Techno artists/producers are kinda retarded with this whole obsession of sound quality and image. There's the 'vinyl sounds better' people, and then there's the 'vinyl looks cooler' people, and then the 'Ableton gives more creativity' people and so on and so on. I show my brother this stuff who plays in a rock band and he's like "Who gives a flying **** either way? Just make music and quit being obsessive compulsive homos. It's all about the girls in the end anyway!!" Haha, and it's true! If the ladies like your techno, be it from vinyl or Ableton, you won't really give a ****. You guys worry too much about the other techno-heads in the crowd that are actually noticing the things that the drunk ladies don't even give a **** about. Make techno that makes girls horny by whatever means possible... that's my philosophy. (well a big part atleast heh)

[Jay Pace]

Jay Pace: Then go buy a guitar and get on stage, the chicks won't even care about the fact that you totally suck and your amp's speaker is blown. ;D DJs don't got shit on lead guitarists! Or buy a TC Helicon and sing your way into their hearts...

:lol:

Man, did I get it wrong with final scratch.

I should have just bought myself some tight leather trousers and whinged into a microphone.

[massplanck]

Played out with FS2 for the first time this weekend.

Bye Bye Vinyl.

[djfilthmonger]

vinyl is great. one of the only forms of mutlimedia that cant be copied illegally.

[Jay Pace]

Wanna bet?

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/7/7c/678_image_med_Vestax-VRX-2000.jpg

A snip at £2k

[eyeswithoutaface]

vinyl is great. one of the only forms of mutlimedia that cant be copied illegally.

eh? people have been doing this for years, from small artists in their studio's to business's on the high street

[djfilthmonger]

people have been doing what for years coping music or coping records ???

[module]

1.MP3 ---> i always have WAV due to the fact i only use my own loops/trax when using Ableton, ot i record vinyl as WAV & snip out loops.

2.Vinyl Cutters ---> overpriced & not that good. had 3 records done by various ppl with different machines, and they arent very good at all. noy only are the machines a few grand, ya need to know how to re-master for cutting, the vinyl is very very expensive and they dont last too long at all.

anyway, i linked the article as a good read, nit becaudse i believe the whole oiece. jus thought it was one of the better small articles on the subject. oh, and i do think its on its way out.

[Roxy Trip]

I hope vinyl doesnt die out. im not into ableton and all that myself.
much better to go out and watch someone using vinyl, its not ALL about the way it sounds and the technology used, i think a bit of it is about interacting/ watchin what a dj is doing too.. i dont get the same buzz off watching someone on a laptop, probably cos i cant see how theyre making it happen or see what effort is involved? I think alot of people that go to parties just to go out and dance, and that arent dj's or music producers, would agree...... but thats just my opinion.

im gonna keep bying vinyl anyways even if it turns out to be that in the next 5 years the majority of people are buying or rippin mp3's off the net :)

[Martin Dust]

Oil is going knowhere for a long time and won't really be a factor in what happens to vinyl, it has never impacted on the price and I don't see a reason why it should start now.

http://www.peak-oil.org/

If you don't believe we're already experiencing the effects of peak oil then you're in la la land.

Not really the poing I was making, which was that it won't impact on the price...but I do take your point on-board...

[eyeswithoutaface]

people have been doing what for years coping music or coping records ???

both

[Spire]

I hope vinyl doesnt die out. im not into ableton and all that myself.
much better to go out and watch someone using vinyl, its not ALL about the way it sounds and the technology used, i think a bit of it is about interacting/ watchin what a dj is doing too.. i dont get the same buzz off watching someone on a laptop, probably cos i cant see how theyre making it happen or see what effort is involved? I think alot of people that go to parties just to go out and dance, and that arent dj's or music producers, would agree...... but thats just my opinion.

im gonna keep bying vinyl anyways even if it turns out to be that in the next 5 years the majority of people are buying or rippin mp3's off the net :)

I agree that being able to watch someone spin some vinyl is fun to watch and wonder about. Like what record is that they're spinning and the beat-matching (HOW DO THEY DO IT!? ;x). But truthfully, I am more interested in the actual songs that are being played. Ableton ( and non-Ableton live acts in general), to me, is the only direction techno truly has, in my mind. Beat matching is cool and all, but damn it's boring already. It was cool the first time, before I had any knowledge of the skill. But it seems to me like techno is only being limited by the age old turntables. Now, don't get me wrong, I LOVE hearing two tracks mix into each other perfectly. There's nothing like the energy of hearing two tracks being mixed, you can't duplicate it. But people talk about the techno scene dying and you wanna know why? I think it's because being a DJ is just that, a disc jockey. They're NOT PERFORMERS. I honestly hate standing in front of the DJ booth staring down at the DJs decks looking like a total dickweed. I prefer walking around the club, listening to the music while at the same time having some fun. If I want to watch a performance, I'll go see Korn or Tool live in concert.

I think Ableton is a beautiful thing. The whole mix 1 track into another track into another and into another... is OLD and boring. How about some guy making beats on the fly with some Roland Electronic Drums plugged into Ableton? Some Laurent Garnier style shit, but hard-techno. I saw some video with a kid doing this with DnB, wasn't all that great but, it was a forward thinking idea that pushed the limits.

It just seems to me like all the vinyl lovers out there just can't let go, not that they probably even really want to. But honestly, techno will die if it's doesn't start changing up it's old habits here. Techno is not about performing or image, it's about the music and live acts will ultimately save it's life...

[Spire]

It just seems to me like all the vinyl lovers out there just can't let go, not that they probably even really want to. But honestly, techno will die if it's doesn't start changing up it's old habits here. Techno is not about performing or image, it's about the music and live acts will ultimately save it's life...


Well, techno will be about performance if we step away from the DJ concept completely. Have multiple producers playing all at once. Adam Beyer, Umek, Jel Ford, Glenn Wilson... all droppin tracks of their own on the same set.

[eyeswithoutaface]

your talking about doing away with the backbone of a whole scene, if anything was to kill a scene that relies so heavily on djing it would be that. Techno IS about performance now. Always has been. Dj'ing taken beyond just mixing one tune into another. You honestly saying the likes of Ruskin, Sims, Clarke, Carl Cox etc are not performers? These guys are capable of using deck's in ways other's simply cannot even rationalise in their heads at times, the music may not be what your into all the time, but there is no denying that techno is a scene that practically thrives on performance, week in week out. There are hundreds of people playing live sets, live pa's etc and people like Underground Resistance who play as whole 8 piece bands, check out Los Hermanos, Galaxy To Galaxy etc etc

This thread is not about needing to enhance the visual aspect in techno, it's just the age old format wars thread, the classic "vinyl - will it ever die or not" debate. The answer is yes, it will, probably not in our lifetime, but as a non-renewable energy source, oil will 100% definately run out one day, and so will it's by products.

[RDR]

how the **** do you mix stuff you've not heard for a start...


You ARE joking i hope? ..

i dont know where to begin. ;)

Why is he joking?

The author from what I took in from that article is the stereotypical 'cool' DJ priding himself on playing "upfront" music and getting lots of promos... when the fact is he should probably try a bit harder in approaching DJing tham merely playing just the latest tunes he gets in the post. How the hell do you expect to give people a proper set if you're playing four hours of music you only got that week?!

Eh?

Being a good DJ is having the ability to do all of these things. Knowing your music inside out is great and really helps.. but having the ability to quickly preview a record and make a decision about the set there and then is an essential skill too.

?

[Jay Pace]

Sorry, thats lost on me as well.

Playing out records you've never heard before sounds completely barmy to me.

[eyeswithoutaface]

well it's something i know alot of the bigger guys have to get used to sometimes, promo's come in on the day of a gig, you might really wanna play it and you dont have much time to get a feel for the record etc etc

i personally always like to firmly know what's in my box practically inside out before a gig, but ive had records passed to me on the night of a gig by other producers and ive played it out still that night, technically it can be done, practically it's better to get to know the record first

[yeswehavetheright]

Ableton ( and non-Ableton live acts in general), to me, is the only direction techno truly has.....techno scene dying and you wanna know why? I think it's because being a DJ is just that, a disc jockey. They're NOT PERFORMERS.



Eh? So you're saying that DJing is killing the techno scene? And that Ableton is the only thing that's gonna save it? Are you playing devils advocate here or do you really believe that? How odd.

[Jay Pace]

There's more to djing than being a musical jukebox.
I've seen some atrociously lazy ableton dj sets. Where the dj might as well have just sent their laptop along, and stayed at home.

There will always be appeal to listen to a variety of different productions. Plus ableton has just been integrated as another tool in some of the best dj setups - thinking specifically of Ruskin & Hawtin here.

Ableton is just another tool to be used. Its not a direction in its own right. In the wrong hands its just as boring and dull as any other tool.

[eyeswithoutaface]

exactly

god, i know people who use ableton that badly that i know for a fact i'd much rather be listening to a guy on ONE turntable, who has to let the tracks play and then flip the record over. Seriously. Ableton is like anything else, you can still know how to use it but still use it, in one's opinion of course, badly. It's like expecting someone whose been playing the guitar 1 year to be able to match the skills of Steve Vai or Chet Atkins just because they are using the same equipment. Doesnt work that way, and techno is too full of people with varying levels of skills to even try and apply a logic such as the example given i.e Ableton being the saviour of Techno.

[Stella Boy]

bring back 2 decks with a 2 channel mixer - not all these newfangle thingymajigs everyone seems to harp on about.

[yeswehavetheright]

Ableton is of course the dogs danglies, but at the end of the day it's all about having fun with what you're doing. Playing vinyl records on the decks is great fun! Having a good old mixing session with your mates just isn't the same if you're all taking it in turns to have a go on the laptop. As long as people enjoy playing records then there'll be a place in the market place for vinyl (even though it may not be as lucrative as it was 10 years ago).

[Spire]

Oh fuucckkk... now I've done it. I said ALL the wrong things didn't I. Hahahahaha. Oooopppss!


your talking about doing away with the backbone of a whole scene, if anything was to kill a scene that relies so heavily on djing it would be that. Techno IS about performance now. Always has been. Dj'ing taken beyond just mixing one tune into another. You honestly saying the likes of Ruskin, Sims, Clarke, Carl Cox etc are not performers? These guys are capable of using deck's in ways other's simply cannot even rationalise in their heads at times, the music may not be what your into all the time, but there is no denying that techno is a scene that practically thrives on performance, week in week out. There are hundreds of people playing live sets, live pa's etc and people like Underground Resistance who play as whole 8 piece bands, check out Los Hermanos, Galaxy To Galaxy etc etc

This thread is not about needing to enhance the visual aspect in techno, it's just the age old format wars thread, the classic "vinyl - will it ever die or not" debate. The answer is yes, it will, probably not in our lifetime, but as a non-renewable energy source, oil will 100% definately run out one day, and so will it's by products.

I'm just approaching the 'vinyl sales are down' idea. You're right, the entire dance scene was created entirely around vinyl. I was wrong to say that stepping away from DJing will fix anything at all. Sorry ;x Sometimes I say shit just to stir up conversation. But yeah, I know there are plenty of live acts and DJs that actually do good performances.

I'm not saying we need to enhance the visual aspect. People hate laptops on stage and vinyl makes everyone cream their panties. I'm not trying to say Ableton is going to save the techno scene, but all these vinyl purists need to embrace it already because they're only helping stagnation of techno itself. And SHIT, I'm not all about Ableton, replace 'live acts' in place of Ableton on my posts.


Are you playing devils advocate here or do you really believe that?

Both really. DJing is not killing techno. I'm saying the lack of creativity on the spot besides "this track mixed with this track with this effect and some beat juggling will be cool as I'm waving my arms around to the crowd" is killing techno. I'm not saying Ableton is a movement all on it's own, but the idea behind it is exactly what techno needs to move forward. (I know I know live acts have been around for ages... :::sigh:::)

ANYWAY, back on topic. Vinyl WILL NOT die. MP3s and WAVs WILL ESPECIALLY NOT die. Techno MIGHT die. Minimal MIGHT EAT techno. Oil is going to be here for QUITE A BIT. And last but not least, DO WHAT YOU DO AND **** THE HATERS! :D

[eyeswithoutaface]

hmmm well hardly the best way to keep what was a good debate going "sometimes i shit just to stir up conversation" come on you have good valid points, if a little contradicting of themselves at times, so there's really not much need to antagonise a thread that's actually rolling along nicely for what it is ;)

and technically, factually, globally, logically Vinyl will one day die. Mp3's and WAV's are still relatively new born babies considering. Techno might die your right, but i dont see it, it's still relatively young in terms of shelf life. Minimal will definately eat techno and wash it down with a nice glass of schranz. Oil will be here quite a bit yes, but it's not finite, it will run out one day. And i agree do what you do and **** the haters, that's always been my motto

:)

[Sunil]

Eh?

Being a good DJ is having the ability to do all of these things. Knowing your music inside out is great and really helps.. but having the ability to quickly preview a record and make a decision about the set there and then is an essential skill too.

?

Had a feeling you'd say something like that.

Listen, any of us can quickly preview a record and play it there and then... that's not the point. The point is the author's stupid 'boast' of playing four hours of new promos he got that week or whatever it is. To me that's that's a load of bullcrap, although to him it's probably being really 'fresh' or something :roll:

[Sunil]

bring back 2 decks with a 2 channel mixer - not all these newfangle thingymajigs everyone seems to harp on about.

haha, yeah! A nice Made2Fade mixer with no eqs on it, well er...maybe not :)

[massplanck]

Had a feeling you'd say something like that.

Listen, any of us can quickly preview a record and play it there and then... that's not the point. The point is the author's stupid 'boast' of playing four hours of new promos he got that week or whatever it is. To me that's that's a load of bullcrap, although to him it's probably being really 'fresh' or something :roll:

Yeah Sunil. But now ye are only arguing about the pedantics of what this guy said in his first paragraph. Its got nothing to do with the actual debate. The fact yes maybe he is a clown has sweet f'all to do with the whole vinyl vs minidisk vs brown bread thingy.

Da Phuture 4 Techno Releases = digital distribution along side a few small vinyl runs for the collecters and audiophiles. That is as long as the vinyl can pay for itself. Or maybe the savings made by going digital could help finance these 'runs'.

Abeleton sucks cock for djing (for me anyway... warping is really bent when its not boom boom music).. + another 50 reasons.

Serato Scracth & Final Scratch on the other hand do not suck cock at all at all . Its just a case of the guy behind the decks not playing out shitty bit rate mp3's. Ie... he should have access to all the techno\electronic music in the world ever recorded & encoded at 320kbps\FLAC\ or Wav. Right now he's getting his shitty quality mp3's from from slsk but thats because, well.. where's the ****ing leadership from this crazy phuture-forward-thinking-scene called techno?

[Sunil]

Well, I offered my opinion on the debate ages ago... that last post was just a seperate thing.

Personally I think this vinyl debate is ridiculous at this stage, so I'm not getting too involved.

Should I hang onto your records you've got here btw? Now that you're an FS2 man? ;)

[Spire]

Minimal will definately eat techno and wash it down with a nice glass of schranz.


Hahahaha

[massplanck]

Should I hang onto your records you've got here btw? Now that you're an FS2 man? ;)

yuo can burn them if you want. just make sure to record & encode them at 320kbps and take a picture of the cover of them for me.

Anyway.. does anyone know what the difference between Serato & Final Scratch is? Final Scratch had its teething problems in earlier versions but i'm not sure which has the edge right now since 2 came out? Please tell me. I must buy one or the other..

Anyway the clincher for me was being able to buy\steal my entire set from bleep\slsk on thursday, practice friday & wipe\empty the floor on saturday. Still there is a lot to be said about having to lug 2400 euros worth of flimsy equipment (laptop etc) around just to play a dj set . :shock:

One BAD thing about bleep is that the lazy cunts dont even bother to supply you with jpgs/artwork or txt files with the download mp3s. Thats stupid. Espically if i am paying 10 euro for an album on mp3.

That said.. a few do do it right. Prion bought some new CockRockDisco release from their site last week and it even had .ASD files for Abelton bundled with it. Nice. (if you like djing with ableton that is)

[module]

there are a lot of opinions here.. and opinion isnt fact, its preference, hence, this 'debate' could go on forever..

personally, i'm glad things have moved & opened up. when i started djing, the idea of a 3 band eq on a mixer was pretty fresh.. now ? if ya turned up for a gig & its any less than a DJM600, you would cackle & sneer..

to me, 'techno' is a shortening of the word 'technology' and as such, we should ALL embrace & move forward. Ableton, imo, has caused more of a stir on the world of dance music than any other tool in the last ten years.. and THATS a monumental incident in itself.

i used to be a hardware & vinyl purist.. but things change, and i think they MUST change or we jus stagnate & go round & round in the same manner for ever.. i LIKE change, even if i dont agree with it, it MUST keep happening, or we jus get stuck in a loop & end up going nowhere.

[RDR]

Eh?

Being a good DJ is having the ability to do all of these things. Knowing your music inside out is great and really helps.. but having the ability to quickly preview a record and make a decision about the set there and then is an essential skill too.

?

Had a feeling you'd say something like that.

Listen, any of us can quickly preview a record and play it there and then... that's not the point. The point is the author's stupid 'boast' of playing four hours of new promos he got that week or whatever it is. To me that's that's a load of bullcrap, although to him it's probably being really 'fresh' or something :roll:

pray tell why sunil? ;)

People like to play new things its true. to me that just smacks of laziness, just as much as knwoing things backwards... in both cases the tune works for the DJ not the DJ for the tune.

Which brings up a good point. DJs are meant to be interactive people or people with vision, whatever method is used is fine by me. LIVe sets IMo are only going to come of age when the technology and the ability combine to produce the TOTALLY freeform scenario. i.e. jazz type performances, using SEQUENCERS. because that is the heritage of the DJ a world based around music by ear and timing by hand. The sequencer is the dj/the dj is the sequencer.

Most things are a means to and end. i for one will be perfectly happy to ditch vinyl if i can use a device that reacts exactly like a 1210. feel and EVerythng. i dont mean final scratch or whatever because i hate them. even though ive used them plenty. just personal taste.

As for the time mp3/cd has been around.. i know what you are saying scott, but you dont go far enough man, the history of RECORDED music, and furthermore, recorded music available at low end consumer formats, is VERy VERYVERY short. we are jst at the beginning, personally im REALLY excited to be here right now and cant wait to see what the future holds for the human/electornic performance interface.

ooopps... tangent, there.

OT - I love vinyl! the smell, the feel, those little bits of white paper stuck to it when you unseal a 12" SWEET!

[module]

the one thing i DO miss about vinyl, is buying it in a store.. online shopping isnt the same for me, theres no relationship with the guys who work in the shop, guys who KNOW what sound ya dig & help ya get the tunes ya want & need.. i used to love going to Mixmaster every day of the week about 1.30-2pm & gettin the first look at the new batch..

[Sunil]

It's brilliant getting a great new record and slamming it on that day or weekend. Everyone loves that. And on that point also, I actually think the physical action of fetching a record from my bag and throwing it on is what I love most about vinyl, it can't be underestimated!

I guess my reading of a lot of the people that only play new music is that they're just involved in a back scratching exercise with friends, labels and promotions companies... and are doing it to ultimately just to feel 'upfront' and continue getting free music - a lot of these people wouldn't even dream of going to a record shop and some rarely buy any music at all. We all like free music from time to time, and when you get something amazing it's great... but 'digging' and searching is what seperates you from the next person, and what's more fulfilling than finding a great record or something you were after, in a record shop?

Nothing.

[Sunil]

pray tell why sunil? ;)



Eh, I dunno... DJ's Intuition ;)

[Sam_Horam]

You all think about stuff way too much...

Just enjoy it...

I love vinyl, there's nothing like putting a piece of wax on for the first time. But if everyone stops releasing vinyl then I'll have to adapt and start buying mp3s or whatever format starts becoming dominant.

Just stop thinking about it and enjoy it the music...[/b]

[Sam_Horam]

why don't we have an edit button?

[Si the Sigh]

You all think about stuff way too much...

Just enjoy it...

I love vinyl, there's nothing like putting a piece of wax on for the first time. But if everyone stops releasing vinyl then I'll have to adapt and start buying mp3s or whatever format starts becoming dominant.

Just stop thinking about it and enjoy it the music...[/b]

Spot on mate, my thoughts exactly.

Now everyone else STFU! :lol:

[Spire]

None of us are worried, we just want to prove somebody wrong. >;D

[Jay Pace]

[quote=Sunil]
Anyway.. does anyone know what the difference between Serato & Final Scratch is? Final Scratch had its teething problems in earlier versions but i'm not sure which has the edge right now since 2 came out? Please tell me. I must buy one or the other.

FS2 is the bomb. Especially as you can buy the full version of Traktor 3 fro about £60 at the mo - and then you have 4 decks, FX and a virtual xone 92 built in. Admittedly never use the virtual mixer, prefer the real thing but its a nice to have.

Serato is very good by all accounts, but doesn't have the interface that FS2 has. FS1 was a bit flimsy, and a little unstable but FS2 is rock solid.

Serato is more for turntablists. You can still scratch like fury on Final Scratch, but the strong points are the software interface, the stability and partenrship with Native Instruments.

Buy final scratch.

[Jay Pace]

but 'digging' and searching is what seperates you from the next person, and what's more fulfilling than finding a great record or something you were after, in a record shop?


I prefer digging online tbh. Got fed up of the limited choices in record shops, and always felt obliged to buy something if I spent an hour digging through records. Digging online you can spend hours and hours without counter staff getting grumpy. That said its been ages since I've found a decent record shop...

[RDR]

pray tell why sunil? ;)



Eh, I dunno... DJ's Intuition ;)

Glad we see the humour... and by god there's vinyl bags FULL of it out there... i know what you're saying man, people take themselves WAY WAY too seriously.

SAdly this means techno too.

:roll:

[Darkmode]

I can see where a lot of people are coming from with their comments. I don't want to see vinyl go but as Martin & Mark said it's still going to be around for a long time.

Check out my blog on my myspace profile about the death of vinyl feel free to leave any comments.

http://blog.myspace.com/darkmodeuk

Peace,
Darkmode

[MARKEG]

I can see where a lot of people are coming from with their comments. I don't want to see vinyl go but as Martin & Mark said it's still going to be around for a long time.

Check out my blog on my myspace profile about the death of vinyl feel free to leave any comments.

http://blog.myspace.com/darkmodeuk

Peace,
Darkmode

awww mate quick off topic shit thanks for your new cd's. i reviewed one of them :)

[rowland the bastard]

no, this is bulllshit. that guy's article does not go into enough depth to even make me think any different than i do already. i'm a huge collector of both vinyl and mp3 right now and i still love vinyl...

so does the crowd when they can see me play it. so does my need to be 'ahead of the game', cause record shops have in place something that informaton overload will never have. mp3 format is good but until the mp3 format has an 'automatic' mastering plant then its behind.

i'll put my neck out and say, there's still years to go in vinyl. and i for one will be there.

agreed!

[Darkmode]

I can see where a lot of people are coming from with their comments. I don't want to see vinyl go but as Martin & Mark said it's still going to be around for a long time.

Check out my blog on my myspace profile about the death of vinyl feel free to leave any comments.

http://blog.myspace.com/darkmodeuk

Peace,
Darkmode

awww mate quick off topic shit thanks for your new cd's. i reviewed one of them :)

Thanks mate I look forward to reading the review, feel free to play the CD's out mate ;)

[tocsin]

no, this is bulllshit. that guy's article does not go into enough depth to even make me think any different than i do already. i'm a huge collector of both vinyl and mp3 right now and i still love vinyl...
so does the crowd when they can see me play it. so does my need to be 'ahead of the game', cause record shops have in place something that informaton overload will never have. mp3 format is good but until the mp3 format has an 'automatic' mastering plant then its behind.
i'll put my neck out and say, there's still years to go in vinyl. and i for one will be there.

I couldn't care less about the format. I've gone into why I prefer digital too much in here already in the past. But, that all comes down to by personal preferences when it comes to composition and what gets tossed in the mastering of vinyl (very high frequencies and panned kick drums). However, in reagrds to the "mastering plant" aspect, I just fail to see how this is relevant at all. If you want your track properly mastered the same way as would be at a plant, hire someone to do it. You can certainly find someone who likely would and still end up costing you significantly less than having to do a run of vinyl for the service. Or am I not following what you're saying?