Mixing in Key

[stjohn]

a few have my mates who play kinda deeper, minimal techno (sorry for using that word) have started getting the key of tunes and keeping track of them. so for every 3% change on the pitch slider constitutes a semitone change. then they got a list of aesthically 'nice' note changes from some forum or other and play tracks in a certain order.

they are adiment that this can help with mixing tracks, but im a bit dubious of it to say the least. from what i can gather, its more to do with making them as Djs, feel a bit more 'intellectual' as performers

my argument to them was, you mix records that go well together anyway, or should, so in that sense you utilise some level of internal harmony.... instead of going by a set of rules.

and even if you accepted this as a good process, why if you are on a key of 'C' should your next track be in 'G' and not B flat or something.

could this be restricitve or a good idea?

[tonyc2002]

loads of dj's mix harmonically but i dont see any thing wrong with it. infact to be honest i think its quite clever.

[theledge]

would defo be restrictive if it got followed too far. I reckon in most cases your ear should tell you if two tracks sound good together. too many rules mean less happy accidents

could be useful to help you organize your tracks though, depends how seriously it's taken i suppose. i've never done it but different strokes and all that

i dont think 3% on the slider would give a semitone either ??

[MARK ANXIOUS]

i mix in key, i have done for many years. it takes alot of preperation (you must pitch every single record you get) and it truly develops 'perfect pitch' (which is a real skill - just do a google search for this on the internet and you'll see what i mean). this way of working has taught me alot i didn't know before i started it and has made me know for sure that mixes are going to go together (as well as homing my production skills on the old eq hehe). my whole record box is arranged in key. its damn hard work to do it each week, but to me - it's worth it.

that's for melody based music. but with drum based techno, this is such a hard thing to do. the problem is with drum based music, you can't find a pitch for it. it's really, really hard.

for those that want to learn how to mix, i would suggest not depending on this technique for sucess. but for those who want to go forward - please, please try it. it's alot of work, but defo do.

[Aratron]

i mix in key, i have done for many years. it takes alot of preperation (you must pitch every single record you get) and it truly develops 'perfect pitch' (which is a real skill - just do a google search for this on the internet and you'll see what i mean). this way of working has taught me alot i didn't know before i started it and has made me know for sure that mixes are going to go together (as well as homing my production skills on the old eq hehe). my whole record box is arranged in key. its damn hard work to do it each week, but to me - it's worth it.

that's for melody based music. but with drum based techno, this is such a hard thing to do. the problem is with drum based music, you can't find a pitch for it. it's really, really hard.

for those that want to learn how to mix, i would suggest not depending on this technique for sucess. but for those who want to go forward - please, please try it. it's alot of work, but defo do.


i think most acid techno is in the key of C. but thats all i know

[Buttman]

A dj who mixes off-key is not really a dj.

[Siege]

I mix in key also but only with the melodic stuff...doesnt really matter with drumtracks etc.. Tracks not all following the same key sound good at times , like interchanging basslines in a mix etc..
I suppose listing everythings key for reference would be helpful if all you played was house,trance etc but to be honest if you cant tell that somethings out of key and have to resort to ckecking notes,your probably tone deaf.

[loopdon]

didn't worry about this to much for a long time or did it unconsciously.

but now this can really piss me right off. i truly can't believe some many 'big-name'-djs seemingly don't give a **** about this. how tone-def can one be after 20 years of dj-ing solid i wonder at times???

i hear loads of stuff crashing now that i have become more aware. harmonic mixing all the way!

[TechMouse]

"In-key" is quite vague.

You can be properly in key (as in the same exact key) but then there's complementary keys (different keys which work together)...

Music Theory is absolutely insane.

Ultimately though, your ears are the best measure.

(Like the Ed Byrne joke... "What the feck do I need bathroom scales for? I've got a mirror...")

[BloodStar]

I am mainly mixing by ear. I think it is just up to your personal feelings for the music if you can mix in key just by ears.
Yes, it is pretty good to know a bit of theory, but I wouldn't go too deeep into it and would just stick with what record sounds good with other record. Works well for me...

[dirty_bass]

well, it`ll never fully be in key, because as your pitches will never be exact for each tune etc.
But I`m just being pedantic.

For techno I think mixing OUT of key is more appropriate.
Or mixing within more interesting scales than the chromatic.
When sounds grate against each other it is interesting and creates lovely physical reactions.

It`s ok for your girly trancey heads, all this in key stuff, but for techno, bah humbug.

[JimmySomerville]

I'm thinking on buying this...

http://xone.mixedinkey.com/Homepage.aspx

Allen & heath recently bought up the rights for it...

I'm thinking it will help me a fair bit in using ableton giving an indication of what will work well toghether.

[Siege]

The pioneer djm800 has sound "colour" feature on every track for harmonic mixing.Tune your tracks in key even when there not originally.....id go for this over the allen & heath if thats what your after...allen & heath probably pips it for sound quality but the pioneer has heaps more features.

[Siege]

Just looked at the link and realised its software..thought it was a mixer theyd brought out.

[TechMouse]

I'm thinking on buying this...

http://xone.mixedinkey.com/Homepage.aspx

Allen & heath recently bought up the rights for it...

I'm thinking it will help me a fair bit in using ableton giving an indication of what will work well toghether.
My understanding was you can pitchshift stuff in Ableton anyway.

Mixing in key should be child's play.

[JimmySomerville]

The pioneer djm800 has sound "colour" feature on every track for harmonic mixing.Tune your tracks in key even when there not originally.....id go for this over the allen & heath if thats what your after...allen & heath probably pips it for sound quality but the pioneer has heaps more features.

The allen&Heath thing is just a program which will key all of the music on your pc, basically letting you know what key all of your tracks are in. You will then easily be able to tell what will go.

It's only £30 compared to buying £1000 djm 800 mixer!

[RDR]

A dj who mixes off-key is not really a dj.

Bugger..

I'd better stop trying to mix freeform jazz then innit...

[RDR]

well, it`ll never fully be in key, because as your pitches will never be exact for each tune etc.
But I`m just being pedantic.

For techno I think mixing OUT of key is more appropriate.
Or mixing within more interesting scales than the chromatic.
When sounds grate against each other it is interesting and creates lovely physical reactions.

It`s ok for your girly trancey heads, all this in key stuff, but for techno, bah humbug.

Couldnt agree more. And besides, music that sticks rigidly to a key leads to a certain kind of boredom... (This doesnt mean im anygood at it in my own production BTW.. im still learning..)

And as EVER IMO

[Siege]

The allen&Heath thing is just a program which will key all of the music on your pc, basically letting you know what key all of your tracks are in. You will then easily be able to tell what will go.

It's only £30 compared to buying £1000 djm 800 mixer!

yeah mate...just realised

[stjohn]

For techno I think mixing OUT of key is more appropriate.
Or mixing within more interesting scales than the chromatic.
When sounds grate against each other it is interesting and creates lovely physical reactions.

It`s ok for your girly trancey heads, all this in key stuff, but for techno, bah humbug.

this was my argument.... what constitutes dissonance? and why cant it be dissonant in the weird and warped sense.... but yes they are playing trancey minimal stuff.

if it sounds good go for it......thats what i say...

all this organisation kills any spontanaeity...i like to bring a bag of my fav tunes, and not really have any idea what way im going to play them....

[Aratron]

i owuld like to know which of my tunes are which key or wot on earth all this key stuff is anyway

[theledge]

this was my argument.... what constitutes dissonance? and why cant it be dissonant in the weird and warped sense.... but yes they are playing trancey minimal stuff.

if it sounds good go for it......thats what i say...

all this organisation kills any spontanaeity...i like to bring a bag of my fav tunes, and not really have any idea what way im going to play them....

yeah that sounds about right to me , if you know your records really well then you could do it all by ear

I suppose if you have loads of new records every week (chance would be afine thing for me:laughing: ) it could be a different story....

[MARK ANXIOUS]

all this organisation kills any spontanaeity...i like to bring a bag of my fav tunes, and not really have any idea what way im going to play them....

i actually strongly disagree with this statement (no offence though mate hehe!!!). i used to mix without key for many years, many years (i now use both ways) and there's pluses and minuses in both techniques.

no-one is saying mixing in key, organises your set to the dot so you know exactly what you're going to play. what it does is puts your records in easy to manage categories. then you find clusters of records within those categories on the night and every so-often when you feel like it, use your intelligence, spotineity and what you learn to help get you across the sections to mix to another category.

for those times when someone's tapping you on the shoulder for a 5 minute conversation mid-set, this can be a god send. it can get you out of very tight spots when something is wrong with the decks or needles and you need to mix super quick. or it can also be a real god send with melodic music to make the key of melody not clash. for someone like me where performance is a big part of my set, it helps make the choices easier and faster when they need to be. and like theledge says, when you're playing a whole new set of records each week (which i try hard to do) it can also get you out of spots when you havent had time to truly learn a record.

but for most drum based techno, like i say, it is impossible to mix like this. that's why when it comes to techno i personally stop being a such a twat behind the decks and concentrate hard on the mix.

anyway, as for those programs that key up your whole hard drive, they don't work, i've tried them (i stand to be corrected if anyone finds one - that mixing is key prog is crap). and using ableton or the pioneer technique to key stuff up is crap cause you shift the frequency of the whole track and loose the punch and power of the sounds as they were meant to be at the original speed. that master-tempo thing is a similar thing that i hate on the poineer cdj's - stay away from it.

at the mo i only see one way to do this properly and that's stood there with a keyboard in your studio and a great deal of patience hahaha

[jeroenliebregts]

i have a question about this:

As far as i know records are produced on different tempos, and some of them are 'tonal' enough to say they are written in a certain key. But as soon as the music is pressed on vinyl, tempo and key are connected.
So how do you mix an 136 bpm record with a 137 bpm record of the same key?

[TechMouse]

i have a question about this:

As far as i know records are produced on different tempos, and some of them are 'tonal' enough to say they are written in a certain key. But as soon as the music is pressed on vinyl, tempo and key are connected.
So how do you mix an 136 bpm record with a 137 bpm record of the same key?
That's the thing jeroen, it's all about relative key.

They have to be in-key at the same BPM.

The easiest way to tell this is to beatmatch them and see if it clangs or not.

There really is no point using analytical tools, your ears are your best bet.

Very rarely will a track be in perfect C, or perfect G minor or whatever.

It'll be microtones out.

[jeroenliebregts]

i understand, but i just cant believe such coincidence ever happens... It has to be so precise.

[loopdon]

i actually strongly disagree with this statement (no offence though mate hehe!!!). i used to mix without key for many years, many years (i now use both ways) and there's pluses and minuses in both techniques.

no-one is saying mixing in key, organises your set to the dot so you know exactly what you're going to play. what it does is puts your records in easy to manage categories. then you find clusters of records within those categories on the night and every so-often when you feel like it, use your intelligence, spotineity and what you learn to help get you across the sections to mix to another category.

for those times when someone's tapping you on the shoulder for a 5 minute conversation mid-set, this can be a god send. it can get you out of very tight spots when something is wrong with the decks or needles and you need to mix super quick. or it can also be a real god send with melodic music to make the key of melody not clash. for someone like me where performance is a big part of my set, it helps make the choices easier and faster when they need to be. and like theledge says, when you're playing a whole new set of records each week (which i try hard to do) it can also get you out of spots when you havent had time to truly learn a record.

but for most drum based techno, like i say, it is impossible to mix like this. that's why when it comes to techno i personally stop being a such a twat behind the decks and concentrate hard on the mix.

anyway, as for those programs that key up your whole hard drive, they don't work, i've tried them (i stand to be corrected if anyone finds one - that mixing is key prog is crap). and using ableton or the pioneer technique to key stuff up is crap cause you shift the frequency of the whole track and loose the punch and power of the sounds as they were meant to be at the original speed. that master-tempo thing is a similar thing that i hate on the poineer cdj's - stay away from it.

at the mo i only see one way to do this properly and that's stood there with a keyboard in your studio and a great deal of patience hahaha

Mark, i agree pretty much whole-heartedly with what you said.

Mixed in key has been updated to 2.5. so it might be better. it relies on an engine bought from 'zplane'; maybe the implementation is flawed but the engine is pretty good i think!

a free alternative with better detection is 'rapid evolution'; i use it to key my drum (and other) samples. i can't comment on the dj-side but that's what it was made for. test showed that the detection was more accurate than 'mixed in key'. to me, getting my samples organized has been a great help. takes a lot of guesswork out of it, imo. not a generalization, i said: for ME. i noticed esp. with snares that they really, really lock with the kickdrum underneath if they are tuned relative to each other. they smack! imo, of course.

i reckon the problem with detection plugins might have something to do with the fact, that loads of producers don't adhere to these 'rules', so the bassline they use might not fit in exactly with the bongo-loops or may be 'off-key' in itself or whatever.

what is a program supposed to do in those cases?
it has to decide between '0' and '1' to be usable but by thus can't possibly consider all the 'grey-scales' a human being might hear/think of. saying: this track could be any in any of these 10 keys
or: the intro might harmonize with..... - would be of even less help, surely.

after all this ramble, please try 'rapid evolution', even if only to see if keying your samples with it helps you for that 'perfect snare, bongo, conga, tom or kick'. it's absolutely free:

"rapid evolution" is an advanced harmonic music library tool for dj's, designed to be used while you mix. it helps profile your songs by saving important properties, such as the bpm, key, time signature, styles, comments, etc. you can then instantly see which songs are within bpm range, in key harmonically and in similar styles. more importantly, it lets you save comments and information about each individual mix you come up with. use it to enhance your knowledge of your music and remember the important details of what you do. you will quickly take your mixing to new levels! the software includes automatic bpm and key detection, as well as tools to determine this information yourself--a bpm tapper and a midi keyboard. it also lets you share all song and mix information with other dj's. use it and start evolving! :-)

http://www.mixshare.com/

http://www.mixshare.com/re2launcher.zip

[loopdon]

That's the thing jeroen, it's all about relative key.

They have to be in-key at the same BPM.

The easiest way to tell this is to beatmatch them and see if it clangs or not.

There really is no point using analytical tools, your ears are your best bet.

Very rarely will a track be in perfect C, or perfect G minor or whatever.

It'll be microtones out.

i think quite a lot of more melodic stuff, esp. made by people with classical training is pretty much spot on when it comes to this. not that i have had that training, mind you.

[loopdon]

i have a question about this:

As far as i know records are produced on different tempos, and some of them are 'tonal' enough to say they are written in a certain key. But as soon as the music is pressed on vinyl, tempo and key are connected.
So how do you mix an 136 bpm record with a 137 bpm record of the same key?

this is a good read on the entire subject:

http://www.harmonic-mixing.com/index.mv

http://www.harmonic-mixing.com/overview/overview.mv

your question is possibly answered here:

http://www.harmonic-mixing.com/overview/advanced.mv

this is the easy-mix thang:

http://www.harmonic-mixing.com/overview/easymix.mv

http://www.harmonic-mixing.com/pix/easymix.jpg

[Si the Sigh]

that's why when it comes to techno i personally stop being a such a twat behind the decks and concentrate hard on the mix.

Ah! How many times have I said to you I prefer it when you play techno. Less fu*king about! ha ha! :)

[TechMouse]

i think quite a lot of more melodic stuff, esp. made by people with classical training is pretty much spot on when it comes to this. not that i have had that training, mind you.

Depends if they cut the laquer at precisely the right BPM though, innit.

Plus, I bet no-one's 1210's run at exactly the same speeds.

[TechMouse]

i understand, but i just cant believe such coincidence ever happens... It has to be so precise.
It does happen.

I've got a breaks bootleg of Satisfaction by Benni Benassi which is bang on with my copy of The Sound of the Big Baboo by Laurent Garnier, for example.

I used to spend hours mixing all my records together to work out if there were pairings like that. I ended up with quite a few.

[loopdon]

right. but nowadays we don't have to rely on decks to play to crowds, do we? :)

i don't want to get into arguments here, really, so i will leave it at that.

i just think one should at least give the entire topic of mixing in key

a thought and then see if one

a) wants

b) can

c) will at times/when appropriate

incorporate this knowledge into the process of producing/playing out.

as Mark said this isn't the final conclusion. just because you sort stuff by bpm/key doesn't mean you don't have to use it always. but it might help SOME people. of course doing stuff by ear can provide just the same kin of results. i reckon i did all that stuff sub-consciously before i ever thought about all this stuff, hehe.

[stjohn]

i have a question about this:

As far as i know records are produced on different tempos, and some of them are 'tonal' enough to say they are written in a certain key. But as soon as the music is pressed on vinyl, tempo and key are connected.
So how do you mix an 136 bpm record with a 137 bpm record of the same key?


well this 3 % on the pitch fader for a semitone thing is supposed to cover that....

the Equal temparate scale is divided into 12 equal frequencies/pitches, so 3 % would apply to 3 x 12 = 96, which is close enough to 100%

if you stuck to this rule while mixing, im sure it could wokr.....but as i said earlier.... rules rules..

[fac]

3 x 12 = 96:scratch:

[stjohn]

:scratch:


:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


and i was doing so well at sounding intelligent
dont know where i came up with that... anyone shed light on this 3% thing then???

[Darkmode]

i mix in key, i have done for many years. it takes alot of preperation (you must pitch every single record you get) and it truly develops 'perfect pitch' (which is a real skill - just do a google search for this on the internet and you'll see what i mean). this way of working has taught me alot i didn't know before i started it and has made me know for sure that mixes are going to go together (as well as homing my production skills on the old eq hehe). my whole record box is arranged in key. its damn hard work to do it each week, but to me - it's worth it.

that's for melody based music. but with drum based techno, this is such a hard thing to do. the problem is with drum based music, you can't find a pitch for it. it's really, really hard.

for those that want to learn how to mix, i would suggest not depending on this technique for sucess. but for those who want to go forward - please, please try it. it's alot of work, but defo do.

There is nothing with preperation mate if it's gonna help with your sets then why not. I write the BPM of the tunes on me records so I can be more spontaneous when I'm playing. It's not cheating as you still have to use your ears but I wouldn't recomend doing this when you are learning to mix.

[Aratron]

on the stanton decks there is a pitch lock mode - what does that do?

[TechMouse]

on the stanton decks there is a pitch lock mode - what does that do?
I think it just turns off the pitch fader.

It's the same thing as "Quartz Lock" on MkIIIs.

[Aratron]

I think it just turns off the pitch fader.

It's the same thing as "Quartz Lock" on MkIIIs.

thanks for that

[beat_theory]

A friend introduced me to a software called Mixmeister Fusion. He said it would be easy to find the key and keycode of tracks.

I bought it and in the past few months I have been recordings my records onto my hard drive and then get Fusion to check out the keys for each song.

The results were quite good. I have a database of 348 techno tracks at the moment that show bpm, key and keycode. Out of those tracks only three could not be detected by the software.

Then I saw a torrent for mixed in key so I thought I will give that a try to just compare the results. The same tracks came out completely different and the bpm of tracks in MIK 2.5 were totally wrong. That program went to the recycle bin quickly.

[Agent_Trig]

A friend introduced me to a software called Mixmeister Fusion. He said it would be easy to find the key and keycode of tracks.

I bought it and in the past few months I have been recordings my records onto my hard drive and then get Fusion to check out the keys for each song.

The results were quite good. I have a database of 348 techno tracks at the moment that show bpm, key and keycode. Out of those tracks only three could not be detected by the software.

Then I saw a torrent for mixed in key so I thought I will give that a try to just compare the results. The same tracks came out completely different and the bpm of tracks in MIK 2.5 were totally wrong. That program went to the recycle bin quickly.

Yeah, I have just started using MixMeister Fusion myself - I really like the interface and how it clearly labels the BPM's and Key's.

Have a look for the Camelot KeyCode System - you will find that very useful for finding out what key goes with what.

[loopdon]

dows mixmeister still lable everything as minor?

[Aratron]

common sense , shurely , innit ?

[loopdon]

why? just because most of dance is in a minor key?

[conor256]

:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


and i was doing so well at sounding intelligent
dont know where i came up with that... anyone shed light on this 3% thing then???

all though yer sums didnt add up there mate i think you should get 10/10 for attempts.......... it sounded mathmetically possible until the maths were pointed out to be crap :) .... he he

[MorePunkThanFunk]

the rules are then to be understood then broken.

tbh i work on the prinicple of if it sounds right then it is right