"techno is too white"

[Tony]

as quoted from a recent magazine cover article with dave clarke.
i did think it through and reached a few conclusions.
techno, i feel is colourless in who it appeals to, but has definitions within its expression.
example: jackin stuff is clearly super black, though not exclusively written by black artists.
on another angle, the total flat out 4/4 approach could be described as distinctly white, but again not produced by exclusively white artists.

i would agree with dave on these points:
there is less total black sound to the techno released nowadays. there is no major movement for jackin chicago sounds at present and there are very few actually black artists who do that really well. ie green velvet, rush.
the majority of what has been present on the market is scandinavian, neapolitan, london acid, eastern block and the more 'white' edge as described above.

now before i dig a hole for you all to bury yourself in, or cause mark a headache by starting potentially inflammatory threads we must first all agree:
this is not a race issue as such, the lack of 'black techno' by description is not due to some considered 'white takeover'. it just seems that the market hasnt paid attention to these areas while other trends have flourished.
this is not a racist thread, i didnt read the article, but the cover qoute that i have used to title this thread got me thinking.

what does it make anyone else think?

[Esox Lucius]

some good points tony, although there are a lot of black artists still producing good techno music, but I see your point.

[Sunil]

what does it make anyone else think?

i agreed with most of what he was saying, it's like soul and funk, they were developed and pioneered by black people, the same way a lot of techno has been. if you look at it now, there's no black Detroit heads doing anything particular noteworthy, certainly not for the dancefloor, the same goes for DJ Funk and those guys, they make sweet fa as well. I think what Clarke is mainly referring to is the Ghetto techno stuff, although he's been making this point for a few years now already! i think the "techno is too white" thing has been blown up a bit too much, however there is some truth to it when you consider the amount of non descript European techno fodder being churned out over the last few years, one thing that must be said for UR/Detroit/Chicago etc. is that they haven't knocked out releases for the sake of it like many of their white counterparts.

[DJZeMig_L]

I would say it's more down 2 influences n what u grew up around with then colour (I do understand we r not going racial here)...

I am white as fuc* but still luv my booty, most times I go abroad I can always guess the shocked face of the people picking me up at the airport.. I mean they all expect a big Tattoed/ pierced Black MF... they get this short fatty white prepy guy... :dontevengothere:

But I am Latin there is loads of Africans in Portugal, so U kinda grow up around those sounds, smells, etc.. and u take it in.

But I guess it's harder 2 have a more funked/ souldfull sound if u live in a cold/ damp/ industrial place...

But I can remember a few white boys doing the "blac* thang"... Rees Urban, Paul Langley, Ruben Anderson, etc...

So I would say more in the way of climat/ melting (or not) pot/ lanscape, etc... then race/ colour!!

Z

[anx]

what the **** does color have to do with anything :roll:

[The Overfiend]

I think it has zero absolute zero to do with colour.
If your in the "black community or urban community" which are two totally different things.
It isn't exactly accepted by your peers to listen to this music we love.
Most of the time I tell people to shut the f*ck up when I put techno on, because the pop culture of america feeds people what they should be listening to I.e. 50 cent.
hearing Dave Clarke say this and get credit for stating the obvious was like duh.
No sh*t Sherlock.
It doesn't matter what colour techno is the more sub categories we keep giving it and separating as we go along the more separitist this music will be, theres enough nepotism.
Now were gonna have black white spanish techno?
N*gga please!!!!!!

[Tony]

just checking this thread for turmoil, as many threads have turned so on this board. but this is looking good.
productive chat and positive personal reflections. although anx has summed it all up so far.

Downwards Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2003 8:50 pm Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
some good points tony, although there are a lot of black artists still producing good techno music, but I see your point

definitely are!!!! and even black artists writing white styles, but these arent definitive terms, just more descriptive.
the obvious artists who write black 'sounding' techno arent necerserily black. but the sound is instinctive as to its colour and influence, and of course subjective.
more of everything for me. i just thought this was an interesting topic to chew on, and theres been some sound quotes
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[1992]

what the **** does color have to do with anything :roll:

Exactly. I think some people get their jollies off making arguments like this. They wish to claim that their race is better then another. :nono:

[Sunil]

what the **** does color have to do with anything :roll:

Exactly. I think some people get their jollies off making arguments like this. They wish to claim that their race is better then another. :nono:

i think you are all missing the point here, it's not a race battle. Clarke is making the point that when he got into techno it was funky and being made by black people, and now there's **** all black people making techno...maybe he feels techno has lost a bit of its funk??? i'd certainly have to agree with him.

[Esox Lucius]

what the **** does color have to do with anything :roll:

Exactly. I think some people get their jollies off making arguments like this. They wish to claim that their race is better then another. :nono:

you always get them dont ya :lol:

1992 - READ Tony's post properly.

[kebabman]

"Techno has become too white" or "Techno isn't black enough", is there a middle ground to Techno? Er, no. The nature of Techno is that it will do what it wants to. I certainly don't believe that being a black Techno producer means that everything you produce would have to have a stereotypical black sound (funk, soul etc.). Conversely being a white Techno producer doesnt mean that your sound would have to be stereotypically banging and loopy.
I dont think that Techno is either too much of anything, I've got funky stuff, minimal stuff, nosebleed stuff etc. All good.
After listening to Daves album I can't say that he's done anything thats new in the slightest and his coment about Techno being too white as far as I'm concerned is just to gain column inches.
Bad Brains (if anyone remembers them) didn't exsist to make Rock more black they just rocked.

[bornaa]

what the **** does color have to do with anything :roll:

Exactly. I think some people get their jollies off making arguments like this. They wish to claim that their race is better then another. :nono:

thats not the point here at all. people of diferent races ARE diferent...they look diferent and probably think diferent. their ancesters grew up in diferent soroundings and conditions and that is in their genes. their culture is diferent. i guess its gonna all level up with time tho. so races are diferent from each other and that will influence the music as well making some separations between "white" and "black" techno . kinda have a feeling alot of people here use anti racial talk in a way that "all human races are the SAME" rather than "all human races are equal".

[bornaa]

It doesn't matter what colour techno is the more sub categories we keep giving it and separating as we go along the more separitist this music will be, theres enough nepotism.
Now were gonna have black white spanish techno?
N*gga please!!!!!!

i agree with you as well. i actualy dont see the point of this discussion at all. maby it has a point, but its probably totaly irrelevant .

[Angrymann]

I reckon the reasons will be simple , nothing to do with colour or any shit like that. Just reckon some of the black producers may just have lost a bit of passion for it or may even think they've taken their productions as far as they can for the moment. Just as some of the white boys will have lost their passion too.

For the likes of Ghetto techno , to me it must come to a point where you can't do much else about " Ass and titties" etc ( just my opinion and probably not very balanced as I don't listen to a lot of it, but I did buy a few Ghetto records a few years back ). Perhaps they are just biding their time until Techno swings back round to where they feel they are at with their music.

Also a lot of the black producers of Techno made MASSIVE names for themselves straight away and produced a few Classic tracks. This means that they will pretty much be busy all the time making DJ appearances and stuff , so if they aren't getting that "itch" to produce then they'll just keep earning the bucks through Club appearances.

[Buttman]

Yet another reason to contribute to Dave Clarke being a totally clueless arrogant cunt.

[jonnyspeed]

Black, white, rich, poor... all rubblish. techno is a white scene and D&B is a black scene because of who are the key innovators... but not exclusively and the door are open to all - but you can't drag em screaming they've gotta wonna turn up.

So long as the pissed hooligan twats stay away who cares about race?

Anyway it depends what you call white - lots of very tanned Italians and Spanish come out in London.

[Esox Lucius]

Black, white, rich, poor... all rubblish. techno is a white scene and D&B is a black scene because of who are the key innovators... but not exclusively and the door are open to all - but you can't drag em screaming they've gotta wonna turn up.

So long as the pissed hooligan twats stay away who cares about race?

Anyway it depends what you call white - lots of very tanned Italians and Spanish come out in London.

techno a white scene?

[anx]

segrigation is bullshit

[The Overfiend]

Black, white, rich, poor... all rubblish. techno is a white scene and D&B is a black scene .

That was straight ignorant.

[anx]

this whole thread is

[Patrick DSP]

WTF i thought this was about soul and lack thereof in 4/4 techno

but now this is becomming ignorant.

topic closed untill you guys can grow up and get a bit more educated.

[jonnyspeed]

I wasn't being a bigot I was just saying that in terms of the majority of punters to underground techno nights are white - well in London, suppose. Go down 414 in Brixton - a massively black area, black bouncers, black bar staff, 95% white punters. Go out to a underground Drum&Bass night in East London and the situation is reversed. Pakistani/Indian/Bangla attendance to techno nights is especially low whilst Chinese and Japanese seem to love it.

I'm not saying I like it, just the way it is, well from what I've witnessed in London. I think it comes down to general cultural taste.

Maybe different elsewhere and in different club?


Peace.

[Tony]

Bad Brains (if anyone remembers them) didn't exsist to make Rock more black they just rocked.[/quote]


and fishbone man, they where wikid!!!!!

[Tony]

i come from birmingham where black and asian people are, i think i'm right in saying, in majority. there are certainly major players in the world of techno or who write black 'sounding' techno, but there arent many actual black people who acknowledge that a good chunk of techno is a black creative movement. they may look up to thier heroes in d'n'b or hip hop, but techno is just as relevant for them to find heroes in.
for example, i cant imagine walking in to my local african social club and asking to do a detroit night. it just wouldnt compute with people. instead of black youngsters praising dizzee rascal and his butterfly knife weilding antics they should have tracks by fanon flowers, dknox and green velvet in their collection RIGHT NEXT TO beyer surgeon etc.
i'm into the lot too, its just that i dont find good booty too often.
more of everything please!!!

[kebabman]

WTF i thought this was about soul and lack thereof in 4/4 techno

but now this is becomming ignorant.

topic closed untill you guys can grow up and get a bit more educated.

Sweeping statements are just as ignorant and are also how racism catches fire. This is a highly contentious argument. Kraftwerk versus Juan Atkins anyone???. Does it matter. Tony is right, more booty stuff please as far as I am concerned. Charlie Hall got on the case with Projex and fair play. The following is a fact: Black men and women can make and play banging/soulful funky Techno just as white men and women can make banging/soulful funky Techno regardless of how well they are known. But is it right for me to state men before women in the above argument? Shit that's sexist. Any other race on this planet apart from black or white who produce Techno. Lordy, there are. Anyone forget about that? Course not, racism is a hot topic and one you can show to your friends how right on you are while forgetting how one dimensional you are.
Not surprising that Dave Clarke causes so much ire amongst people...SUCKERS!
Anyone remeber HMS?

[The Overfiend]

It's true this argument sucks lock the topic.
Be a lil bit more humanitarian people, who give a sh*t about what,
I'm Rican Italian and grew up a Metalhead who knew how to breakdance go figure.

[dan the acid man]

in my opinion there is alot of funky techno still being made, alot of geezer,s tunes are funky as hell and if the a-side of hydraulix 20 isnt funky then i dont know what is

[The Overfiend]

Yeah but what does funky have to do with black, lolololololol.
that just sounds so funny though.
In my head i keep seeing marley Marl saying "it's gots ta be Fonky"

[dan the acid man]

im not looking at this as a race issue, im just looking at it as a lack of funky techno issue, wich i dont find to be the case

[kebabman]

It's true this argument sucks lock the topic.
Be a lil bit more humanitarian people, who give a sh*t about what,
I'm Rican Italian and grew up a Metalhead who knew how to breakdance go figure.

Why are you advocating censorship?

[The Overfiend]

I'm not advocating censorship I don't want to promote stupidity.

[dan the acid man]

i think sam is right, there have been some pretty stupid comments on here

[Carl]

f u c k ignorance, f u c k loneliness, f u c k reality, f u c k society :lol:

[kebabman]

Neither do I. But discussion is not stupid regardless of how you feel about what is said. Censorship for me is a very hot topic. I concur that this topic will very quickly go absolutely nowhere.
However, Dave Clarke raised a point which obviously merited some discussion although it was sloppily put. I myself have witnessed arguments as to how Techno is progressing. Is it getting too 4/4 banging and loopy? Where is the soul and funk? Where is the original soul of Techno? Err, it's ****ing music for ****s sake.
Sorry mate but telling anyone on a forum to lock a topic is pretty lame.
Fahrenheit 451 anyone? (I may have got the degrees wrong). For Christs sake I've seen some threads on other Techno boards about how crap Jeff Mills mixing/sets are lately? And??? Live at the Liquid Room for me is a benchmark. I couldn't give a toss what he's like now, he started something for me and regardless of how many "Black" dj's are doing Techno now is irrelevant. It's what you've learnt from your peers that counts.

[kebabman]

Sorry, that meant to say it's ****ing music for ****'s sake.

[Sunil]

Yet another reason to contribute to Dave Clarke being a totally clueless arrogant cunt.

i'm not saying I think everything Clarke says is bang on *but* let's get real here, he's no mug Buttman, he's been around the block and experienced a lot within the techno scene....arrogant maybe, clueless I don't think so!

[Buttman]

i'm not saying I think everything Clarke says is bang on *but* let's get real here, he's no mug Buttman, he's been around the block and experienced a lot within the techno scene....arrogant maybe, clueless I don't think so!

I am infalable.

[1992]

what the **** does color have to do with anything :roll:

Exactly. I think some people get their jollies off making arguments like this. They wish to claim that their race is better then another. :nono:

i think you are all missing the point here, it's not a race battle. Clarke is making the point that when he got into techno it was funky and being made by black people, and now there's **** all black people making techno...maybe he feels techno has lost a bit of its funk??? i'd certainly have to agree with him.

Ohh. Well if its like that then I'll agree too! All the funk got left back in 1994. That was when all the funk left the techno for the jungle. I hate this myself, I loved all those 4/4 beats with the chopped breakbeats, wicked crazy sounds, and good vibes. Even though techno no longer has most of this, it still has that lovely hard driving 909 beat and I'd say that even though it doesn't have the breakbeats or extremely excellent sounds (like the riffs in 2 Da Core "Rub A Dub"), it still has a nice vibe. Thats why I was looking for a forum like this, because I've gotten really sick of how non-funky and non-vibey drum and bass has gotten. At least hard techno hasn't losts its way after all these years. In fact I think it may have gotten better. That Brain Zentz "D-Clash" tune is totaly amazing for example, its totaly got that 92 energy which I crave to hear.

[1992]

Also BTW: All of the recent techno sets I've downloaded this month have been really amazing. Maybe I'm bias because I've become so sick of what the DnB people have been doing but I think the current techno is pretty darn cool and that includes the MarkEG mix that someone posted in here. Sure its not as cool as the hard as hell 1992 jungle tekno ardkore, but its cool in its own loopy trackly way. I actually hated minimal techno with a passion till I heard Carl Cox and Underworld play sets at the ex-nyc nightclub Twilo. What a great time it was to dance to that stuff and to know exactly when the 909 OH & CH pattern would kick in and when the beats would drop. That predictability is what makes it cool for me, and you still can't hear real techno on the radio which makes me feel special when I blast it out of my car windows (when everyone else around here blasts M&M rap, yes blasting music in the car is my guilty pleasure). :lol:

Also to say that only people of african decent can make good techno is quite silly. Theres plenty of good white techno artists who once brought the funk to the scene such as Slipmatt, Seduction, Ratty, Waxdoctor, and Stu Allen. Sadly they've either retired or lost their touch because the music scenes changed.

[Buttman]

What a great time it was to dance to that stuff and to know exactly when the 909 OH & CH pattern would kick in and when the beats would drop. That predictability is what makes it cool for me,

I feel like crying.

[The Overfiend]

Also to say that only people of african decent can make good techno is quite silly. Theres plenty of good white techno artists who once brought the funk .

Nobody said that.

[Tony]

the only reason i think this thread should be closed is - you're all agreeing with each other but getting passionate about it.
we all know anyone of any colour can write good music, whatever the genre. but i'm just missing a bit of ghetto booty stuff, or a nice come back for some jackin chicago.
no one has been racist on here, but i think people are being over PC which is the only way that its gone pear shaped.
your all top blokes, you know there is no colour boundaries to techno, but i hope you all notice what i was trying to discuss.
HELL, i dont even know what clarke said in that interview. he may have summed it up eloquently, or he could have come across as a racist. i dont know, and i rightly dont care.
i put this post up for some nice hearty conversation, but on reflection 'music and race, now theres two topics people dont have much passion about'.
no, this should be a fun conversation about 'wheres the booty?'. totally harmless, anyone who treats it otherwise should be chucked off.

[The Overfiend]

The booty is by Kne Deep's camp.
Jack I believe was the new album?

[Sunil]

The booty is by Kne Deep's camp.
Jack I believe was the new album?

"Jack" was on Projex, excellent triple pack.

[Sunil]

i'm not saying I think everything Clarke says is bang on *but* let's get real here, he's no mug Buttman, he's been around the block and experienced a lot within the techno scene....arrogant maybe, clueless I don't think so!

I am infalable.

oh right, you are *infallible*, well you just proved yourself wrong there ;)

[jonnyspeed]

I don't think this is a race agrument, its more ethnicity and culture. I think that techno resonates with anglo-saxon and East Asian cultures because we are very electronic driven. Other cultures are more driven by other influences such as latin and african beats which have different influences from local music.

The recent cross over techno tracks I've heard in terms of dub, latin and african do work. Maybe if these individual styles could gather more scale, like Drum & Bass and Asian Dub has in the UK, then I think we would get more cultural diversity.

At the last Anti-World night at SE1 in London, these styles of tracks were played by Geezer and Chris Liberator but only in isolation of full on techno/acid. I don't think I saw a black face all night, but I was a bit mashed. Howver when I go to 100% Dynamite London's main Dub night it is a true Heinz 57 variety of cultures.

Peace.

[MARKEG]

thanks for praising my mix 1992, but it's totally irrevant to the topic. ps jesus i hope that mix isn't predictable too!!! :lol:

i haven't locked this topic because i have to say, i do wonder why there's not as many black ppl producing techno as their used to be in the early eighties. i find this topic totally exciting. i always put it down to the fact that the early detroit techno had so much soul, the fact it was being made in detroit and it was a concept between a few black friends. cool but techno has developed into something else.

now i see techno as music that can easily touch different cultures and people regardless of race and ethnic background. that's one of the reasons why i love this music so much. but the problem is that black ppl are targeted with hip-hop/r+b and many of them can easily relate to it. so they latch onto it as kids. techno? hmmm... it's gonna be hard for black kids to discover techno. hip-hop offers way much more excitement.

only my thoughts but, hey perhaps you can see why i didn't lock this topic. ;)

[bornaa]

dont lock it....there are some replyes here that i would guess were written by monkeys and not people (no this is not a racial thing again)....i just hope i dont realise im a total idiot as well cuz i would really get depressed and cut my veins right open in the bathtub :neutral:

[ampassasinbirmingham]

you do know how to get evryones juices going dont ya grainger:)

with me being only eighteen i dont have loads to say on this. But....
From listening and buying records. There did seem to be a lot more soul in lots of the older techno records. todays tunage seems very mechanical/dark/plain ****ed up. But it seems there was a lot more heart in the tunes back then. Not that there isnt now, it justs seems that back then there were more soulful/funkyness to the tunage. More stuff to wiggle you ass to, rather than pound the night away.

[jonnyspeed]

Suppose from a London point of view that's the whole point... it ain't intelligent, it ain't from detroit but its fackin' avin it!

All my Indian friends hate techno because they say that they can't get off with women as easily has going out to somewhere that won't let you wear trainers and plays 2 step/gararge.

[Col]

Theres plenty of good white techno artists who once brought the funk to the scene such as Slipmatt, Seduction, Ratty, Waxdoctor, and Stu Allen.

:shock: hey c'mon lets not be silly. to associate those names with both techno, and funk is hilarious. :lol:

you were taking the piss right?

[Col]

i can also see good reason for not locking this topic.

this boards been a little bland of late, its nice to see some heated debates taking centre stage.

[1992]

Theres plenty of good white techno artists who once brought the funk to the scene such as Slipmatt, Seduction, Ratty, Waxdoctor, and Stu Allen.

:shock: hey c'mon lets not be silly. to associate those names with both techno, and funk is hilarious. :lol:

you were taking the piss right?

Wheres the silly? 'Ardkore as it was in 92 was an evolution of detroit techno, acid house, and other europian styles of dance music, thats why kevin saunderson had his tunes to be remixed by grooverider and even he himself released hardcore tunes as tronik house. hardcore, an evolution of techno, and latter jungle, an evolution of hardcore, was (past tense) all about funk.

Anyway I certainly wouldn't concider hard minimal techno as being "funky" really. I don't think its suppose to be, thats not the point now is it? I haven't heard a techno tune with any breakbeat loops in back of a 909 kick since 1996 on some guys mixtape that I copied. Also I haven't heard a real "funky" bassline in a hard techno track in quite some time, the last was this Drumcode record...20.5 (but then again I haven't been an advid collector of techno vinyl so maybe I'm missing something).

[Buttman]

I haven't heard a techno tune with any breakbeat loops in back of a 909 kick since 1996

Check Regis' later work.

[Esox Lucius]

Theres plenty of good white techno artists who once brought the funk to the scene such as Slipmatt, Seduction, Ratty, Waxdoctor, and Stu Allen.

:shock: hey c'mon lets not be silly. to associate those names with both techno, and funk is hilarious. :lol:

you were taking the piss right?

Wheres the silly? 'Ardkore as it was in 92 was an evolution of detroit techno, acid house, and other europian styles of dance music, thats why kevin saunderson had his tunes to be remixed by grooverider and even he himself released hardcore tunes as tronik house. hardcore, an evolution of techno, and latter jungle, an evolution of hardcore, was (past tense) all about funk.

Anyway I certainly wouldn't concider hard minimal techno as being "funky" really. I don't think its suppose to be, thats not the point now is it? I haven't heard a techno tune with any breakbeat loops in back of a 909 kick since 1996 on some guys mixtape that I copied. Also I haven't heard a real "funky" bassline in a hard techno track in quite some time, the last was this Drumcode record...20.5 (but then again I haven't been an advid collector of techno vinyl so maybe I'm missing something).

you're talking rubbish my friend...

[jonnyspeed]

I agree - funk is such a minor influence that it is plain wrong to say that hard techno is an direct derivitive... Hard Step D&B but only at a push.

[MARKEG]

come on guys, back on topic :roll:

[aggressor]

wtf has colour got to do with techno?

techno is for your ears not your eyes!!

why bother about what the artist looks like , enjoy what you hear !!!!!

if Dave Clarke can bring a race issue into music , what does that make him ?????


end of !!!!!!!!!

[wenna]

i can't understand this topic either. go into any drum and bass room at a party and u'll be surrounded by black ppl. now techno imo has more in common with dnb than pretty much any other form/style of music.

basically, if its a sub based thing why arent more producers into it?

[Tony]

i can't understand this topic either. go into any drum and bass room at a party and u'll be surrounded by black ppl. now techno imo has more in common with dnb than pretty much any other form/style of music.

basically, if its a sub based thing why arent more producers into it?

how can you not understand the topic? why do people keep talking about race? its not so directly about race, this is more about the 'feel' of the music and early defining genres that causes major stirs.

i just wanted you guys to have something interesting to chat about. if you cant see the point then dont write anything.
meanwhile.....what happened to dj funk? havent heard anything from him for a while. dj assault and pals are certainly keeping up the ghetto tech, but again we have no real platform for a pure ghetto tech night in this country, or at least not that i know of.
assault is white, see, thats how i'm not talking about race in subject, i'm talking about musical cultural referance.

mr EG you're on the right tip. a few of my black friends grew up loving UR and the detroit movement, but any black youngster could be forgiven for thinking there was little in Techno 2003 that he could truely latch on to. its a shame really.

[DJZeMig_L]

Techno has a bit of funk, actually a bit of everything losts of people from diferent backgounds, cultures, etc... they all think of tehno in a different way . Techno is preciselly that.. all the cultural/ racial/ etc... rejects who do not give a fuc* about rules and the way this or that should be played/ made...
Techno combines all styles... u can be tech-house, tech-trance, abstract, etc... but it's techno!!

I think some of the more mellow/ soulfull techno from the early days was donne not because people were "black" but because they were opressed, because they're lifes were a predictable big void... grow up... work at the car factory... have kids... die ... loop ad eternum... Music was they're way of escapism/ dreaming/ etc... they did it 4 pure fun... anyways that's my view.. if u live a particular dark situation u either so bal*s of dark and angry or soft and dreammy!

Z

[Esox Lucius]

imo the first rule of techno is funk!

[Angrymann]

Like I said before I do think that it's more to do with where Techno is at at the moment as opposed to much else.

But you could also ask the question , how do we know there aren't as many black producers of Techno. Most of the time I buy records on the name and I really don't know what the producer looks like.They could be black /white/male/female/animal(most likely..it is techno after all)

So is it maybe a case of there isn't as much black sounding Techno out there rather than less black producers. UR are still releasing stuff which IS black techno ( could be mistaken but all the artists on UR are black are they not..if their not then pardon my ignorance) as is Stacey Pullen.

But other than that I can't be 100%.

Are you guys more in the know about who is and isn't black etc when it comes to producers??

[Esox Lucius]

good point, at the ned of the day it doesnt matter what the colour of the skin is of the producer as long as they are making good music.

[Jay Pace]

Some interesting lines of argument here. Some monkeys as well, inevitably. Here's my 2 cents...

One of the things I love most about techno is that it is fairly well hidden. I'm from London, and spent all my teenage years running around at raves, listening to pirate radio and buying drum&bass and hardcore. I even got into garage at one stage (sorry).

Still like drum&bass and breaks, but one of the main reasons I was into the scene was its explicit self promotion. Flyers everywhere, loads of pirate radio stations, general media picking up the scene as being "underground" and very cool. The thing is people get a bit narrow minded if thats how they get into music - whirled in with the general package of image, attitude and aggression. Witness the ignorance and narrowmindedness you get in drum&bass forums. Where its "all about drum&bass" and everything else is by default rubbish.

I can't speak on other cities, but london being a big mixture of races it is interesting to see that disproportionately few black people attend techno - which is seen as being white. And as someone competely erroneously suggested earlier - drum&bass being black and of black origin. I think the media does a lot to culturally polarise music in this way, by crudely stereotyping all music with bass as being black, and symphonic melodic music as being white.

The amount of people who dont have a blind clue what techno is - either assuming it to be hard house or "bleepy german stuff" is testimony to the fact that techno doesn't market itself in such an aggressive manner. You can find your way into the scene rather than have it imposed upon you. Public ignorance of techno in the UK is strange considering how much time and money we invest in the dance music scene.

I'm blethering a bit. And I can only really talk from experience about London, and possibly the north east (where there are no black people whatsoever). Its intereting to see how and why people racialise music.


all rubblish. techno is a white scene and D&B is a black scene because of who are the key innovators

I'd really like to know why you think this, simply because it is so, so wrong. So why are you under this illusion?

Peace

[Tony]

Are you guys more in the know about who is and isn't black etc when it comes to producers??[/quote]

no i dont think i probably am. i'll by a record cos it works for me. i dont care if it was written by a chinese immigrant to argentina so long as i personally think it rocks.

this is why i was saying its not about the actual producers so much, more about the sound. but then, i would like more black people to appreciate the guys who busted their ass forging a new sound. i'm sure any black heroes are good for the black community.

[Angrymann]

What I was trying to say with that comment Tony was basically.

From the original thread . Dave Clarke stated their weren't as many black producers as before , but how does he actually know this unless he knows the names and faces of everyone releasing records. I consider myself to know as much as I need to about Techno , but I can't say I know where everyone is from , what they look like.

So , would you say Dave Clarke knows enough prodcuers/artists to make this comment in the first place.

I don't think there is one person in the world that can claim to know everything about Techno , every label , every artist on the labels etc etc??

[Tony]

no, agreed. and i havent a clue what clarke said in that interveiw, i merely read then pondered the front cover, so to me it only implied the feeling of the music. unless dave clarke has commisioned the worlds first census into the techno world then i'm sure he is either talking out of his leather trousers or also talking about the lack of jackin/booty.

its funny the way a lot of people refer to the 'black sound' as funky or soulful. that isnt instinctively the way for me. funky techno sounds super white to me. not the ur stuff, but primate and primevil or intec does. i know intec is coxs label, but to me the feel of the music is very white.

probably on my own on that one. damn these individual thought patterns!

[The Overfiend]

I usually agree with things you say Tony but to associate funky or jack with being black is purely Stereotypical, like all black people can dance blah blah.
Truth is we don't know who makes what most of the time, and the color shouldnt matter, If the young black youth don't want to hear techno or make it oh well. They have that choice, Look at dj rush, his funk is jack no doubt but his techno doesnt exactly sound white or black, I mean jeez the best rapper is white. I don't think it matters a bit.

[Jay Pace]

I'd guess Dave Clarke knows a lot of the major faces in the scene, and that he could tell from this that there aren't as many black people about.
This is a completely pointless observation. Techno may have started in Detroit, but now that Sweden, Germany, Eastern Europe, Italy and countless other predominantly white countries are producing techno you are bound to see more white faces. I'd wager that most techno produced now, and most techno parties and clubs are in Europe. So you are bound to see more white faces.

I dont think it matters remotely .

[Angrymann]

It definately doesn't ,but it was worth having a wee discussion on it.

White men can dance perfectly well too , look at Michael Jackson!!!

[Tony]

I usually agree with things you say Tony but to associate funky or jack with being black is purely Stereotypical, like all black people can dance blah blah.
.

re-read dude, your agreeing with me, and i'm agreeing with you. aint that sweet :lol:

[The Overfiend]

Oh damn. My bad Tony, Slap me five on the blackhand side
Soul Brother.

[jonnyspeed]

[quote="And as someone competely erroneously suggested earlier - drum&bass being black and of black origin." [/quote]

I completely stand by that comment. I go to D&B clubs in london and I find then full of a disproportionate number of black people compared to the black population within London. Even in areas that are not tradiotionally black ie. Hoxton you get 75% black people attending D&B nights. Go out in Brixton 95-95% of people at techno ecents are white.

You gonna tell me that 75% of London is black or 95% white. No. Then I stand by the comment that D&B is a black scene and Techno is a white scene. And no I don't mean 100% but well outside the proportion of these races in the population. An no I don't like it and no that don't make me a racist. I'm just not one of those people that so politically correct that they refuse to say what is in front of their eyes week in and week out.

Please more black people come out this weekend and prove me wrong!

[Jay Pace]

That there are a higher proportion of black people in d&b clubs in london than the average population proportions - true. That the clubs are 75% black? Erm, which clubs are you going to? I've lived in london and been raving for a decade, and I'm yet to come across an all black d&b night. Maybe I've just been going to strangely white clubs and raves. They're all the major ones though...

Brixton tends to do more of a line in hard tech & acid techno. Which you can have as "white music" if you like. But if you are going to talk about "key innovators" techno is deeply in debt to all its detroit godfathers (mostly black), and players like carl cox, dave angel, dj rush, countless others.

Go to an R&B night at subterranea and that is almost 100% black. D&B has always been mixed. And more white than anything else. Black faces are maybe more memorable as there are more than usual, but it would be wrong to say the majority were black. D&B seems to mostly be made up of white teenage/early 20's boys, in London and all across the UK.

I'm not trying to be antagonistic so I hope this doesn't come across as agressive. And its nothing to do with political correctness. I just don't agree with your observations.

Peace.

[bornaa]

I usually agree with things you say Tony but to associate funky or jack with being black is purely Stereotypical, like all black people can dance blah blah

i think its all just a series of stereotypes. that black skin colour is diferent than white is a stereotype, and that japanese ppl have eyes like they just sucked on a lemon is, as well, a total stereotype. we all look the same! just those nasty stereotypes make us seem diferent.

ok, i was trying to be funny with this irony, but my point was that the racial influences are here, existing, and calling those diferences stereotypes is stupid. and leave poor dave alone, you guys wrote esseys based on just a 4 word quote on the frontpage of some magazine. first of all we should know the numbers of black, white, japanese mutobmo or whatever people in techo and than we can ask a question why.

[Buttman]

What about "Techno is too cock"?

Not much cunt in techno is there?

Quite odd =|

[Angrymann]

I just figured out that you can say cunt , cock , arse , dick , fanny , cuntface , cunthead , cuntybaws, you cunt , he's a cunt,she's a cunt , but you can't say ****

[Si the Sigh]

oh ****!

[jonnyspeed]

you forgot twat, wank, bollocks and flaps

[jonnyspeed]

Go to an R&B night at subterranea and that is almost 100% black.

I would rather wank with sandpaper then get my mum to stamp on my sore red hard cock than go anywhere near an R&B club.

Otherwise I correct myself on the D&B front in the last few years is more mixed. I remember a Metalheadz night in BlueNote in 1997/8 that was almost all black but a few trustafarians in the corner. The last D&B night I went to was at the Fortress in Clarkenwell and that was 80% white. So I'm talking out my arse again.

Sorry folks.

[VOMATRON]

I just figured out that you can say cunt , cock , arse , dick , fanny , cuntface , cunthead , cuntybaws, you cunt , he's a cunt,she's a cunt , but you can't say ****


L.O.L.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[The Overfiend]

Remember this?

[Technologic]

as quoted from a recent magazine cover article with dave clarke.
i did think it through and reached a few conclusions.
techno, i feel is colourless in who it appeals to, but has definitions within its expression.
example: jackin stuff is clearly super black, though not exclusively written by black artists.
on another angle, the total flat out 4/4 approach could be described as distinctly white, but again not produced by exclusively white artists.

i would agree with dave on these points:
there is less total black sound to the techno released nowadays. there is no major movement for jackin chicago sounds at present and there are very few actually black artists who do that really well. ie green velvet, rush.
the majority of what has been present on the market is scandinavian, neapolitan, london acid, eastern block and the more 'white' edge as described above.

now before i dig a hole for you all to bury yourself in, or cause mark a headache by starting potentially inflammatory threads we must first all agree:
this is not a race issue as such, the lack of 'black techno' by description is not due to some considered 'white takeover'. it just seems that the market hasnt paid attention to these areas while other trends have flourished.
this is not a racist thread, i didnt read the article, but the cover qoute that i have used to title this thread got me thinking.

what does it make anyone else think?

I think this is because of a demograpghic. Eastern Europeans, ie, the Polish, Russians, Germans etc love techno and have quite a large fanbase and is obviously predominantly a white part of the world, mainly due to Kraftwerk i'd imagine.

The thing is, how can techno not be black?

The curators of the Detroit sound were all black ffs. Mills, Saunderson, May, Craig, the list goes on and they continue to tour the world as much as any white techno artist. Lets not forget Carl Cox and the huge Brand name that he carries all over the world as well.

Personally i think it's well balanced.

[BloodStar]

techno is black, trance is yellow, minimal is khaki,or?

[Technologic]

And after reading most of the thread...

What happened to Primate & Primate Endangered Species, and Djax?

Is that the kind of sound Dave is talking about?

Have they ceased business?

I dunno, but even if they are, i'd still play their tracks, music doesn't have to be new to get a certain sound you want.

[The_Laughing_Man]

Primate blew up and ingested itself up its own rectum

This thread probably should have done the same

[The Overfiend]

This thread is too white, lol.

[DJPAUZE]

And after reading most of the thread...

What happened to Primate & Primate Endangered Species, and Djax?

Is that the kind of sound Dave is talking about?

Have they ceased business?

I dunno, but even if they are, i'd still play their tracks, music doesn't have to be new to get a certain sound you want.

I have seen some of their mp3's on Beatport, I am pretty sure they went belly up with Prime Distribution. I bet Mark has an idea.....

[Technologic]

Yeah, there's some downloads available but that's mostly 2000-7, with a more extensive back catalogue with the classics.

Ashame if they have ceased trading as they were good labels.

And Primevil as well.

Primates myspace is down as well, if i'm not mistaken.

[lunatrick]

seem to remember some bad blood around primate etc going down. Personally I liked some of their stuff however a label can't sustain itself on a tribal bongo beat alone...

[Technologic]

Primate wasn't all tribal, i remember RND Technologies - Mental Propulsion & Melrob - Incessent Sound, thrashed them both and nothing like the tribal sound, mind you, that is early Primate.

[The_Laughing_Man]

SOme of the primate coloured 10 inches were absolutely sublime

[Technologic]

SOme of the primate coloured 10 inches were absolutely sublime

You know that!

[RDR]

This thread is too white, lol.

you need to change forum skin then.

[RDR]

SOme of the primate coloured 10 inches were absolutely sublime

I have the yellow one. its shit.

[The_Laughing_Man]

That was one of the later releases if I remember.
The slighty opaque yellow one?

[clubsynthetic]

who needs funk when you have WONK?

[clubsynthetic]

who needs black when you have white too?

[The Overfiend]

my fav primate was the green michael burkat 10 inch

[SlavikSvensk]

preferred primevil back in the day

the puente latino rekkids was dope...

[JamieBall]

I think sun ra said it best

"my kingdom is the kingdom of blackness"

And he wasn't talking about skin colour...

[davethedrummer]

Check Regis' later work.

oh right...here we go......regis this regis that

[davethedrummer]

my fav primate was the green michael burkat 10 inch

good choice

[gunjack]

oh right...here we go......regis this regis that


who?

[DannyBlack]

i'm too white.

[The_Laughing_Man]

who?

He`s the man that drives the wagon

[tekara]

this is nothing new......Dave Clarke said the exact same thing back in 2004.

[The Overfiend]

This thread is from 04.

[aNaLpLeAsEr]

Maybe Jackson aint alone

[tekara]

This thread is from 04.

lol who the hell bumped this

[SlavikSvensk]

lol who the hell bumped this

that would be mr. fiend

[The Overfiend]

Too many Ativans!

[Smear]

Interesting to note how long ago this was, and the techno equivalent of UB40 that he plays now, haha.

[Microdot]

After listening to Daves album I can't say that he's done anything thats new in the slightest and his coment about Techno being too white as far as I'm concerned is just to gain column inches.

word

[Rog]

i have never cared who makes fantastic music of any genre, as long as i'm digging it - i am happy.. we have all danced side by side!

if the music was made by an alien, i'd still want to smile and say thank you..

[TechMouse]

if the music was made by an alien, i'd still want to smile and say thank you..
Jeff Mills?

[RDR]

Praise be his name.

*genuflects*