RUMOUR: Amato have gone bust

[RDR]

Can anyone substantiate this???

[koma]

i've read this too on Trash Menagerie site today
apparently they'll come out with official statement next week??

[eyeswithoutaface]

wouldnt surprise me, i know a few people who have approached them for distribution recently and had funny response's from them

it is a shame though, and as a friend pointed out Neuton will probably sweep up most of the labels left homless, Techno's answer to microsoft soon enough

[theledge]

oh dear. neuton will have some but there'l be plenty more for whom this would be more than a kick in the teeth.

vinyl is on the way out though

[RDR]

Mudslinging started already

http://bb.4four.org/Default.aspx?g=posts&t=25765

And to cap it all off i know the fella that runs the climacz music network, they just placed a big order with Amato yesterday.

Chris.

[Sunil]

vinyl is on the way out though

You're wrong there, and you should really do more research on this to find out why. First of all, find out the sales figures of good selling Neuton labels, for instance, are doing.. and see if any of those people believe or are resigned to the fact that vinyl is on the way out... they're not.

Also, vinyl is not reliant on dance music or techno to survive, so to somehow suggest this is being a bit naive.

[dirty_bass]

Indeed, vinyl is fairly strong, it`s just dance music, and techno are a little out of favour these days

[Aratron]

it`s just dance music, and techno are a little out of favour these days

why do you think that is? i get a positive respose from all the parties i play at to techno? i dont get it, why it isnt more mainstream. mind you i live in Doncaster, like living in some black hole of techno.

[dirty_bass]

many many reasons.

For a start when dance music went really big, it basically went pop music.
It was couritnf popularism, and well, pop music is a bubble.
It comes along, everyone goes "ooh, pretty" and the POP!!! it`s gone.

That and I think the myth of the superstar DJ slowly deterioated once everyone had decks and realised "shit, anyone can mix", and that again, it`s as much luck and blag and hype, as it is talent.

The mainstream turned it`s eyes back to rock.
The major labels lost out hugely during the independant label boom of the dance era.
The majors just couldn`t control this, despite trying to stifle distribution networks.
Rock bands are easy to control, burn the desperate bitches into a contract and CONTROL everything.

All these factors and some others contributed to the demise of dance music.

Right now I think we are experiencing a very odd time in techno.
A lot of the big names have moved on to minimal now, leaving techno with a big hole, which unfortunately is being filled with anybody who has the money to press a record.
Everyone with a copy of fruity loops and 700 quid to loaf is bringing out a label, the overall audio quality has dropped vastly, and their is more chaff to sort through. There are labels now that have no guidance from the old skool, big names, to keep the quality control up, which is a bad thing, but not permanent.
Just go to Juno and look at the amount of 001`s released every week.
How many 002`s are there though????

However, everything is cyclic, and techno seems to be back underground. Lots of smaller clubs with devoted fans who really understand the music, and who have the enthusiasm to keep the energy going.
I think some new movements will emerge, new sounds, within techno, and things might slowly build up again, all is not lost.

Meanwhile, hopefully the transition over to digital media will speed up so we can move out of this current limbo.

[theledge]

You're wrong there, and you should really do more research on this to find out why. First of all, find out the sales figures of good selling Neuton labels, for instance, are doing.. and see if any of those people believe or are resigned to the fact that vinyl is on the way out... they're not.

Also, vinyl is not reliant on dance music or techno to survive, so to somehow suggest this is being a bit naive.

fair enough on the second point - although the collapse of (yet another) distributor would suggest things aren't exactly too rosy in the techno vinyl market, wouldn't it?

I'd love to see some sales figures though - would you like to share any? (PM if you prefer)

I'm not sure this is the place for yet another vinyl/mp3 discussion, but sheer cost of producing and distributing vinyl isn't doing anything for getting ground breaking, original music out there...

[Aratron]

Meanwhile, hopefully the transition over to digital media will speed up so we can move out of this current limbo.

i have heard some mindblowing sets on ableton live (dave-oldbugger) being best example.

and i know that it is the future. but im like pretty stuck in my ways, it took me a long, long time to mix to any kind of standard with vinyl and my decks, and i get a buzz out of vinyl.

id like them to released on both formats.

[fils_here]

why do you think that is? i get a positive respose from all the parties i play at to techno? i dont get it, why it isnt more mainstream. mind you i live in Doncaster, like living in some black hole of techno.

try living in buckey dude, there must be all of 3 us into techno :whoops:
but the parties up in cloccaneog are really good, like dave's set up, decks & abelton been some really good tunes on that rig!

[fatcollective]

bloody hell, Amato hold a lot of labels too!!

[lunatrick]

didn't they pick them all up when intergroove went bust?

[dirty_bass]

How much wood needs to hit us in the face before we see the forest?

[Athar]

very sad news for all :whoops:

vinyl versus free mp3 ......

[Sunil]

but im like pretty stuck in my ways, it took me a long, long time to mix to any kind of standard with vinyl and my decks, and i get a buzz out of vinyl.

Stick with it then, no point changing a winning formula.
As long as you can still find music you like on vinyl and still enjoy playing it, then that's all that matters.

[Sunil]

fair enough on the second point - although the collapse of (yet another) distributor would suggest things aren't exactly too rosy in the techno vinyl market, wouldn't it?

I don't know the circumstances, and personally I never had the need to use Amato as a distributor; so while I feel for the people that have lost out here, I'm not reading into it too much.



I'd love to see some sales figures though - would you like to share any? (PM if you prefer)

Well, I could give examples of a few labels, minimal ones mind..

Marco Carola's new label for instance (2M I think is the name, can't remember) is pitching itself as a "limited to 2,000 copies label"

Minimise regularly do in excess of 2,000.

I could go on, but lets just say that 2,000 ain't bad... and these are before you get to your Poker Flats and Minuses etc.

As for other techno labels - there are many people who are regularly selling out of 500+ presses.

Ok, so the market is favouring minimal big style, and the deeper sound has enjoyed a new wind... but it still proves that there is a vinyl market, and a fruitful one for some labels.

I really wish there were more techno releases out for sure, but I do know that good techno releases can and do still sell... on vinyl. A lot of it comes down to distributors - some are *really* good and consistent, others can be just totally hopeless.

[RDR]

fruitful one for some labels.

2000+ as fruitful?

Can we hear ourselves here?

Cripes.

[Sunil]

2000+ as fruitful?

Can we hear ourselves here?

Cripes.

I'm a bit lost, what are you saying?

[RDR]

I'm a bit lost, what are you saying?

2000 records is NOTHING in terms of sales, not set against other genres of music.

[Sunil]

2000 records is NOTHING in terms of sales, not set against other genres of music.

What are you getting at here? I don't get your point, I don't see any relevance to what you're saying actually. Something to do with 2,000 or so not being good (in comparison to ther genres) sales figures? 2,000 + is good for any electronic label in this day and age. Maybe you and people like Dirty Bass want to continue telling people where 'we' are headed and how grim things are (I don't know?)...continue on if you like, I hope people are listening to you and making you feel right.

[RDR]

What are you getting at here? I don't get your point, I don't see any relevance to what you're saying actually. Something to do with 2,000 or so not being good (in comparison to ther genres) sales figures? 2,000 + is good for any electronic label in this day and age. Maybe you and people like Dirty Bass want to continue telling people where 'we' are headed and how grim things are (I don't know?)...continue on if you like, I hope people are listening to you and making you feel right.

So you cant see the correlation between low sales figures and the topic of this thread?


2,000 + is good for any electronic label in this day and age.

Im sure it is. But how many sales does the average label in ANY genre make?


...continue on if you like.. ok, now that you've said i can, its made it better.


I hope people are listening to you and making you feel right. **** me for analysing how things are going, i wasnt aware that i wasnt allowed to do that mate.

FFS wind your neck in. If you have a personal beef with me then by all means go onto PMs, I guess the same goes for DB. Public slanging matches are pretty sordid.

[Sunil]

So you cant see the correlation between low sales figures and the topic of this thread?

The figure mentioned was 2,000. This isn't low.




FFS wind your neck in. If you have a personal beef with me then by all means go onto PMs, I guess the same goes for DB. Public slanging matches are pretty sordid.

It's not public slanging. You put out your opinion here as does DB, and what I'm saying is that contrary to what you might think, there is no gospel word around here... Some of the opinions here are just plain ignorant, speaking about harder edged techno or the styles more popular on BOA as if that's the whole techno scene or something. The usual 'we' , 'us' and "when will we ever learn?" type crap. It's ridiculous. A couple of people thinking they're leading the herd on BOA, when half of it is just horseshite.

[massplanck]

I'm sick of digital. For the first time in 2 years im buying vinyl again. By the bucket load.

[massplanck]

Some minimal records are selling 4000+ I hear. I dont understand people who think techno sales is all about the hard techno/party bangers. People are sick of this shit.


When UR go bust ill start worrying.

[RDR]

The figure mentioned was 2,000. This isn't low.

For techno maybe.




You put out your opinion here as does DB, and what I'm saying is that contrary to what you might think, there is no gospel word around here... Some of the opinions here are just plain ignorant, speaking about harder edged techno or the styles more popular on BOA as if that's the whole techno scene or something. The usual 'we' , 'us' and "when will we ever learn?" type crap. It's ridiculous.

Im just trying to find my way through this rickety business, and how else to do that than to converse with people like yourself. For the record, id rather discuss what myself and others are trying to do than keep quiet.

And whats this about WE or OUR? Thats not the same thing as what im talking about is it?



A couple of people thinking they're leading the herd on BOA, when half of it is just horseshite.

And who's that then?

If you mean ME then.. :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

Try talking to me first

here is my MSN, feel free. Im not gonna be arsey with you.

thornton_x (at) hotmail (dot) com

[RDR]

I'm sick of digital. For the first time in 2 years im buying vinyl again. By the bucket load.

The funny thing is I love vinyl loads...

one of my goals in life was to have a vinyl release.

[Louk]

not good news at all, i heard whispers another one (which owes me money) is facing troubles, i hope it's not true

Louk

[Si the Sigh]

You can't just leave it there Louk... :)

[Louk]

indeed mate chasing up an invoice is never a fun thing

[RDR]

You can't just leave it there Louk... :)

agreed!!!

[Louk]

wait and see, they owe a fair few of my friends payments too and i want to see if anything happens before naming names.

[dirty_bass]

I think Sunil is on his period.

Opinions are just that, opinions, no real need to bring on lady blood in your panties though, I think it`s that ranty time of the year again.

Sure vinyl is doing well, OVERALL, thanks to the amount of new rock being pressed on 7`s.

And minimal is doing well (but is it even techno, I think it`s house for people who don`t like to admit they like house).

But
With the amount of distributers and record shops collapsing in the last few years (hey folks, ELP has gone too now by the way), you`d have to be crazy-aid-bonkers to think everything is just rosey dosey posey.

Unless of course, you`ve just started a record label, in which case you probably want to believe that everything is great, otherwise the alternative is far too depressing.

It`s techno, we are all insanely committed to this damn music, so vinyl sales or not, it won`t (or shoudln`t) stop any of us from making it, talking about it, childishly fighting about it on forums, voicing our opinions, making exceedingly loud noise, investing worrying amounts of money on kit etc.

the music is long out of fashion, and yet here we all are, still talking about it, so that must mean something right?

We don`t have to all agree with each others opinions to get along though, nobody likes a nodding dog, there`s nothing wrong with disagreeing with each other. It doesn`t mean we have to be enemies.

[theledge]

As for other techno labels - there are many people who are regularly selling out of 500+ presses.

Unfortunately 500 releases doesn't even cover the cost of pressing the record in the first place, as I'm sure you're well aware. It's peanuts sales - even if a lot of labels run at a slight loss, I'm not remotely surprised distributors are going under left right and centre when 500 copies is considered a success.

Continuing with vinyl just means that most labels are even more unwilling than usual to risk putting out music which is different, goes against the grain, might not sell....and at the moment that means everything is minimal. I agree with dirty bass on this, most of it doesn't feel much like techno to me either...

I love vinyl, and I love playing it, but the future is with us already and there's very little doubt its digital...

[davethedrummer]

of course the future is digital
there's no competition for it's sheer accessability

but vinyl is special

also you must remember that amato were selling a lot of different types of music
mainly house and commercial really

so if they've gone down after " shaking hands with the man "

what does that say to us?

[eyeswithoutaface]

some strange views here i think

to me personally, sales of 2000 is bloody brilliant when i take into account who i am, where i am and what im doing. Regardless of if its a techno record, if its a minimal record etc etc i know people with house labels that get cained by all the top house boys, but only a couple of these labels have had sales of 2000 or more, and none of them hit that regulary.

what alot of people forget is that alot of the trouble with poor sales isnt JUST down to that fact that not as many people are not buying as many records in the electronic scene as previous years, but it is infact down alot of the time to promotion. I could only name a handful of techno labels who really go to town with their promotion, and i could name hundreds who dont. You've got to get your record releases down to a nice package, something you can and actually do promote to the record buying public. There are simply too many people starting labels practically every week to sustain the market anyway, but also alot of these labels think you can just register with Juno and your away, which is not the case at all.

Too many amateur ran labels who, unfortunately, crash and burn when they realise that whilst they feel they deserve to be at least breaking even, they are infact not even doing that, and its just simply not fair to put the blame entirely on the people buying the records.

Record sales in 7, 10 and 12" formats in the rock/indie scene are indeed rising, and why do people think this is? along with the obviously bigger market, its the obviously better promotion and marketing. There is a correlation that i think alot of people need to realise. And before someone says "well they've got big budgets", that's true of course, but good promotion doesnt always mean throwing alot of money at something. Just offer the punter something that looks and actually is a professional product from the start, and i think people would notice the difference.

There are still some really big and really credible labels in techno and the electronic music scene, and they are the big labels for a reason, because from the start they've meant business, they've come up with something solid and professional, instead of the number of amateur ran labels techno seems to be swimming with more so than any other genre at the moment

What's needed is a joint effort, where people embrace the future whilst still retaining the past

[lunatrick]

here's a link to ritchie hawtins mixmag interview :-

http://infinitestatemachine.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/mm_nov07_richiehawtin.pdf

some if it is the usual waffle about the future but near the end he makes an interesting point about how his label minus is paying out more royalties than ever i.e more sales than ever because of digital downloads......ok they are probably one of the most famous labels and perhaps getting more and more so......but I agree with eyes - this is because they are serious and professional - they saw what was coming and adapted to it and sell a quality product....it's just called running a business, any business, and a lot of the smaller players just don't seem to get that.....if I was going to start a label now I would get a shit hot website and hit the digital distributors hard, and perhaps just do small limited edition collectable vinyl releases with quality artwork and packaging.

[Sunil]

I think Sunil is on his period.

I think it's easy to get your period when you read some of the stuff on here :)
I dunno, you speak in a very assured tone about certain things, particularly the digital/vinyl thing; but all you base it on really, is clubby techno or hard techno.. which is not where sales are at all right now. I think that the opinions expressed here are very insular, they just refer to one part of the techno scene, and that's before you've even got to electro, hardcore, d n'b, whatever else that comes close to the fringes of techno.

I mean what about the recent revival of deeper techno or the eps from Deepchord, Andy Stott and co? That sells very well. And a year or two ago many of the ‘deep’ heads didn't know what the future held. People buy these records because they are making an investment for the future; they're picking up quality music that will stand up in a few years time and may still be talked about. The next Euro techno 12” for instance, will not be though. Minimal etc. has spawned a techno media that favour slightly less intense music, and indeed many club records now need to qualify as listening techno records too. I'm not saying that I think a lot of minimal is good, I think a lot of it is nothing, but techno definitely came under a new type of scrutiny over the last few years, and the tougher or Euro stuff for the most part, got spat out. Anyway, I don't need to tell you that obviously, it's the reason we are having this discussion!

Last month UR were on the cover of Wire magazine;WE (if we're going to be a community for a second then) should honestly be seeing that as a victory for techno. Sure, UR make different stuff sometimes, but their approach is techno through and through, and when I saw Interstellar Fugitives play a few weeks ago they were awesome.. the real deal. Anyway, many are now taking note of UR again, and even if it is just over a BLT on their lunchbreak for 15 minutes somewhere, it still helps. Last month it's UR, a few months down the line it could be Surgeon and Regis, who knows? The media is still very important, and while this is probably for another thread entirely I think people should be reminded again what absolute jewels in the crown of techno Surgeon and Regis are; they are still in a position to steer the good stuff back onto the agenda in a bigger way again.

Thing is, I think there are a lot of wicked producers around, yourself included Steve, who might not be far away from infiltrating the techno or electronic music world as much as is deserved. Maybe I'm off the mark when I say this, but I am convinced that much of the people making good stuff who fell off the train or who can't quite make it onto it, are those who make bad choices or trust the wrong people. I'm not suggesting that you have not put yourself on the map Steve, but when you are on this crusade towards digital I just think it's ludicrous. If you honestly think that techno is a world better confined to digital releases, then I think that's a bit unfortunate.

Ultimately, I think my main gripe or point is that we all live in different scenes. When I come onto BOA I see stuff flying around and it's as if the general consensus is that this forum is where techno begins and ends. There is no one techno scene, so therefore there's no one foregone conclusion to how ALL of this is going to go. When I see all the summing up observations of how it is and is going to be (especially in terms of music formats) I just can't relate to it as it's not true to my world at all; using Serato etc. or a laptop to DJ never has to happen if I don't want it to, so how has someone else already decided my fate for me? Some of the predictions going on are extraordinary, I think some of you need to hold your horses and stop gazing into the crystal balls all the time… it’s pointless.

Me personally I get by on records old and new, and with a lot of stuff that isn't techno as well; I still buy and play it on vinyl and I don't see that changing. The same applies to so many other people. I may have freaked out a bit here but hopefully I've added a bit of balance to this ongoing debate!

[massplanck]

"using Serato etc. or a laptop to DJ never has to happen if I don't want it to"


Sunil for Dictator.

[Sunil]

Im just trying to find my way through this rickety business, and how else to do that than to converse with people like yourself. For the record, id rather discuss what myself and others are trying to do than keep quiet.




The guns were blazing a bit there, I wasn't out to have a go at you personally, but kinda did in the end.. sorry for that. Hopefully my last post will explain where I've been coming from..

[RDR]

The guns were blazing a bit there, I wasn't out to have a go at you personally, but kinda did in the end.. sorry for that. Hopefully my last post will explain where I've been coming from..

No worries man, it did get my back up for a bit, then i took account of myself and realised i didnt know why.

For the record I dont believe this place is the be all and end all of techno forums, not by any means. But just like any forum it can be a bit insular.

Techno is forever changing, my view is that its a natural occurance for it to move formats. The main problem is the quality product i suppose, as you mentioned with UR. And someone else mentioned with Hawtin I think???

There are always going to be winners and losers in any business, music is particularly known for this, a make or break business where money lives on a knife edge.

:)

[dirty_bass]

I think it's easy to get your period when you read some of the stuff on here :)
I dunno, you speak in a very assured tone about certain things, particularly the digital/vinyl thing; but all you base it on really, is clubby techno or hard techno.. which is not where sales are at all right now. I think that the opinions expressed here are very insular, they just refer to one part of the techno scene, and that's before you've even got to electro, hardcore, d n'b, whatever else that comes close to the fringes of techno.

I mean what about the recent revival of deeper techno or the eps from Deepchord, Andy Stott and co? That sells very well. And a year or two ago many of the ‘deep’ heads didn't know what the future held. People buy these records because they are making an investment for the future; they're picking up quality music that will stand up in a few years time and may still be talked about. The next Euro techno 12” for instance, will not be though. Minimal etc. has spawned a techno media that favour slightly less intense music, and indeed many club records now need to qualify as listening techno records too. I'm not saying that I think a lot of minimal is good, I think a lot of it is nothing, but techno definitely came under a new type of scrutiny over the last few years, and the tougher or Euro stuff for the most part, got spat out. Anyway, I don't need to tell you that obviously, it's the reason we are having this discussion!

Last month UR were on the cover of Wire magazine;WE (if we're going to be a community for a second then) should honestly be seeing that as a victory for techno. Sure, UR make different stuff sometimes, but their approach is techno through and through, and when I saw Interstellar Fugitives play a few weeks ago they were awesome.. the real deal. Anyway, many are now taking note of UR again, and even if it is just over a BLT on their lunchbreak for 15 minutes somewhere, it still helps. Last month it's UR, a few months down the line it could be Surgeon and Regis, who knows? The media is still very important, and while this is probably for another thread entirely I think people should be reminded again what absolute jewels in the crown of techno Surgeon and Regis are; they are still in a position to steer the good stuff back onto the agenda in a bigger way again.

Thing is, I think there are a lot of wicked producers around, yourself included Steve, who might not be far away from infiltrating the techno or electronic music world as much as is deserved. Maybe I'm off the mark when I say this, but I am convinced that much of the people making good stuff who fell off the train or who can't quite make it onto it, are those who make bad choices or trust the wrong people. I'm not suggesting that you have not put yourself on the map Steve, but when you are on this crusade towards digital I just think it's ludicrous. If you honestly think that techno is a world better confined to digital releases, then I think that's a bit unfortunate.

Ultimately, I think my main gripe or point is that we all live in different scenes. When I come onto BOA I see stuff flying around and it's as if the general consensus is that this forum is where techno begins and ends. There is no one techno scene, so therefore there's no one foregone conclusion to how ALL of this is going to go. When I see all the summing up observations of how it is and is going to be (especially in terms of music formats) I just can't relate to it as it's not true to my world at all; using Serato etc. or a laptop to DJ never has to happen if I don't want it to, so how has someone else already decided my fate for me? Some of the predictions going on are extraordinary, I think some of you need to hold your horses and stop gazing into the crystal balls all the time… it’s pointless.

Me personally I get by on records old and new, and with a lot of stuff that isn't techno as well; I still buy and play it on vinyl and I don't see that changing. The same applies to so many other people. I may have freaked out a bit here but hopefully I've added a bit of balance to this ongoing debate!


I totally get what your saying and I am in no dissagreement whatsoever.

Nor am I on a crusade.

The only thing that really bothers me is that the ENTIRE music industry in in a transitional limbo from physical media to digital media.
Now yes there are good sales in various areas of dance music, and relative to dance music as a whole the sales for some labels, mostly the more historically established labels, the sales are fairly good.
I don`t dispute that.

However, when you step right back from things, and look at the music industry as a whole, everything is affected by this change.
Everything.

The complete desolation within vinyl distribution for dance music, AND the amount of record shops that have died, is a very very obvious indicator of what is happening.

Now I`m not abandoning vinyl at all, I`m investing a bunch of money into more vinyl production for the new year, but really, vinyl is more of an expensive means of promotion now, to call it a serious business is to be a little bit in denial of the changing market.

Off the back of vinyl as a promotion medium, there are other avenues where money is to be made, gigs for example, if you are interested in making money.

However, the technology is rapidly advancing, more and more clubs are moving over to CD, laptop based set ups, and while we remain in this limbo, then the business will conitnue to be very shakey indeed.

I`m sure the market for vinyl will slip into an equilibrium at some point, with less labels kicking about, and the larger labels taking up the slack by being an outlet for more music, in the same way that large scale labels such as BMG etc release lots of music. But then things might slip into the old model of the music biz, with the market being controlled by the minority.

I love music, the comitment to vinyl is nothing more than a failure to embrace change, in the same way that some people will only buy, say, nike trainers and never anything else.

What is important is the music, the medium through which it is delivered, so long as it retains High Fidelity, and affordability, doesn`t matter at all.

I think the only realistic future for independant music, not just techno, is the digital domain.
It`s happening now, all around us.

Anyway, regardless of the medium, the music will survive, so there is no real reason for anyone to panic, personally I see the dance market flipping in the same way that the major music market is flipping.
The gigs and performances are where the money will be made, and merchandise sold off the back of this (whether in situe, or via vendors).

[The Overfiend]

I think it's easy to get your period when you read some of the stuff on here :)
I dunno, you speak in a very assured tone about certain things, particularly the digital/vinyl thing; but all you base it on really, is clubby techno or hard techno.. which is not where sales are at all right now. I think that the opinions expressed here are very insular, they just refer to one part of the techno scene, and that's before you've even got to electro, hardcore, d n'b, whatever else that comes close to the fringes of techno.

I mean what about the recent revival of deeper techno or the eps from Deepchord, Andy Stott and co? That sells very well. And a year or two ago many of the ‘deep’ heads didn't know what the future held. People buy these records because they are making an investment for the future; they're picking up quality music that will stand up in a few years time and may still be talked about. The next Euro techno 12” for instance, will not be though. Minimal etc. has spawned a techno media that favour slightly less intense music, and indeed many club records now need to qualify as listening techno records too. I'm not saying that I think a lot of minimal is good, I think a lot of it is nothing, but techno definitely came under a new type of scrutiny over the last few years, and the tougher or Euro stuff for the most part, got spat out. Anyway, I don't need to tell you that obviously, it's the reason we are having this discussion!

Last month UR were on the cover of Wire magazine;WE (if we're going to be a community for a second then) should honestly be seeing that as a victory for techno. Sure, UR make different stuff sometimes, but their approach is techno through and through, and when I saw Interstellar Fugitives play a few weeks ago they were awesome.. the real deal. Anyway, many are now taking note of UR again, and even if it is just over a BLT on their lunchbreak for 15 minutes somewhere, it still helps. Last month it's UR, a few months down the line it could be Surgeon and Regis, who knows? The media is still very important, and while this is probably for another thread entirely I think people should be reminded again what absolute jewels in the crown of techno Surgeon and Regis are; they are still in a position to steer the good stuff back onto the agenda in a bigger way again.

Thing is, I think there are a lot of wicked producers around, yourself included Steve, who might not be far away from infiltrating the techno or electronic music world as much as is deserved. Maybe I'm off the mark when I say this, but I am convinced that much of the people making good stuff who fell off the train or who can't quite make it onto it, are those who make bad choices or trust the wrong people. I'm not suggesting that you have not put yourself on the map Steve, but when you are on this crusade towards digital I just think it's ludicrous. If you honestly think that techno is a world better confined to digital releases, then I think that's a bit unfortunate.

Ultimately, I think my main gripe or point is that we all live in different scenes. When I come onto BOA I see stuff flying around and it's as if the general consensus is that this forum is where techno begins and ends. There is no one techno scene, so therefore there's no one foregone conclusion to how ALL of this is going to go. When I see all the summing up observations of how it is and is going to be (especially in terms of music formats) I just can't relate to it as it's not true to my world at all; using Serato etc. or a laptop to DJ never has to happen if I don't want it to, so how has someone else already decided my fate for me? Some of the predictions going on are extraordinary, I think some of you need to hold your horses and stop gazing into the crystal balls all the time… it’s pointless.

Me personally I get by on records old and new, and with a lot of stuff that isn't techno as well; I still buy and play it on vinyl and I don't see that changing. The same applies to so many other people. I may have freaked out a bit here but hopefully I've added a bit of balance to this ongoing debate!

Takes my hat off and applauds

[AcidTrash]

Makes one wonder what the world would be like if all this analytical ability and energy were spent on something useful.

[RDR]

Makes one wonder what the world would be like if all this analytical ability and energy were spent on something useful.

Troll.

[dirty_bass]

Makes one wonder what the world would be like if all this analytical ability and energy were spent on something useful.

What is more usefull than creative and imaginative, abstract expression of the human spirit?
Art and musical expression separates us from the animals, and as it can be selfless and without the need for profit, yet can give universal pleasure to people regardless of language barriers.
Music brings people together, breaking social, econimic, racial and spiritual barriers, and it is why it is so controlled, and why dance music, which became so powerful, has been repressed.

What are you suggesting is more useful? politics?

[AcidTrash]

hippy.

[AcidTrash]

What is more usefull than creative and imaginative, abstract expression of the human spirit?
Art and musical expression separates us from the animals, and as it can be selfless and without the need for profit, yet can give universal pleasure to people regardless of language barriers.
Music brings people together, breaking social, econimic, racial and spiritual barriers, and it is why it is so controlled, and why dance music, which became so powerful, has been repressed.

What are you suggesting is more useful? politics?

Actually your reply does deserve a better answer.

Dance music has not been repressed because of any of the things you mention. It has been repressed because A) it's damn antisocial to play it all night in a built up area, B) whenever there are free parties there's always a mess someone else has to pay for the clean up of, C) I never met a raver who wasnt happy to climb into a car and drive it after half a dozen pills. D) it's part of the drug culture which isn't taxable. Governments dont like things they cant tax. and E) it creates a generation of young people who drop out of the system. You may see the latter as a good thing. I do not. The brightest and best of a generation pricking about with cubase? Examine any youth movement of any other decade and they actually archived something. Ravers just learned how to shake off personal responsibility and duty of care to themselves.

In fact, why does the rave scene needs to be repressed when it does such a good job of repressing its people without help. It would only need to actively repress the scene if it were in any way a threat to its authority. It is not.

What is more useful? Perhaps asking why those barriers you speak of exist and what can be done to prevent the going up in the first place.

Diverting all this energy into a self referential bubble of toy obsessed craven egotists and posers and debating endlessly which toys will last the test of time is actually quite sad. Especially given that these threads haven't actually changed in all the years I've been reading them.

In many ways I'm pleased the techno scene I knew is dying. The only people it served was DJ's who were prepared to throw thousands of their own money at failed enterprises for their own sense of self worth (masquerading as love of the scene LOL), criminal drug dealers, and the many cynical parasitic businesses that have grown up around yet another consumer market.
Everyone else was just cattle (of which I became a part for a time).

All the while the victims watch their teeth grind to dust and their ability to play an active role in something more than their cloying, claustrophobic cliques, disappear down the sink.

Of the many people I knew from that scene, most of them are still there, not having moved on or grown up or even achieved anything of note. Most of them are state dependants or racked with consumer debt and for all their claims of being free they are more slaves to the system than I, especially given the system really would prefer you self medicating and out of the way.

So far as I can see the scene is one massive drop-out factory full of hypocrites, fantasists, sycophants and sheep.

As to my original comment, I think were all this intelligence applied to real problems rather than pricking about with cubase
there wouldn't be so much of a need to go out on a weekend and frazzle your brain on whatever the hippy in the toilets is punting.

[dan the acid man]

may i point you to this post you made pete http://www.blackoutaudio.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=53592

[AcidTrash]

Spoil sport.

[MITA]

burn~

[AcidTrash]

I was looking forward to one of DB's grand speeches.

[eyeswithoutaface]

the thing is, there is no one techno scene. Sound's to me that the side of things you got involved with Pete were to be blunt, shit, and it's soured your whole view on things. That's a very negative and cynical view on what is a global genre of music. We've had a thriving scene up north for years spanning across cities like Liverpool and Manchester for me particulary, always seeing the same regular faces at parties, good, honest people, many are professionals in their field. Several of my friends are doctors and consultants and they enjoy regular raving, doesnt always equate to drugged up face munchers though. Alot of my friends, myself included, started out just as a punter and the passion has since developed into something people can try and make a career out of, with some people i know actually doing just that

it's not all about bad acid records, parties in forests and big bags of pills

[dirty_bass]

I was looking forward to one of DB's grand speeches.

Not a speech
But a reply to your own I suppose.

1) Who said anything about free parties? Club nights and club licensing has been severley restricted, and so have legal dance festivals. There has been a definite clamp down on dance music by the authorities, even when it is legal.

2) Less and less people use narcotics at the events I go too, they seem to be out of fashion, or crap, but the vibe is still good, so there goes your munter theory.

3) As for achievements, it all depends on what you rate as "achievement", I`m guessing you rate achievement in material gains.
I can only speak for myself and my experience, but I have achieved the ability to travel around the world, meet very very interesting people, and build friendships that trancend national boundaries. I allways enjoy hanging out with the people as much as playing the parties, and music has allowed me to do all of this. It has aided my communication with people I may have never met, and has educated me about life in other nations.
I`d say it has enhanced the enjoyment of my life.

I`ve met a few of your said "hypocrites, fantasists, sycophants and sheep" but probably far less than if I was working in banking for instance. On the whole I have met amazing, intelligent, well educated and wise people some of who`m I have made enduring and endearing relationships with.

That`s not a bad achievement for "mucking around in cubase"
Music has got me out of the rat race and the daily grind, and given me another way to live my life.

[AcidTrash]

Not a speech
But a reply to your own I suppose.

1) Who said anything about free parties? Club nights and club licensing has been severley restricted, and so have legal dance festivals. There has been a definite clamp down on dance music by the authorities, even when it is legal.


Thats not just dance music though. It's anything where people gather for social reasons. pubs are closing down at a rate of 20 a month. Band venues are being eaten alive too.
Largely because old buildings in dead city centres are being developed for housing property.

Don't think the government gives a fck about people on drugs or the music, it just does the bidding of the folks with the money where town planning is concerned.



2) Less and less people use narcotics at the events I go too, they seem to be out of fashion, or crap, but the vibe is still good, so there goes your munter theory.


Well this I have to see for myself.



3) As for achievements, it all depends on what you rate as "achievement", I`m guessing you rate achievement in material gains.


Actually no. Ive spent two years on and off developing software for a disability charity. I put that above my house and car and even my music which is good for what it is. I know plenty of producers still on the welfare whose sole achievement is finally kicking the ketamine into touch.



I can only speak for myself and my experience, but I have achieved the ability to travel around the world, meet very very interesting people, and build friendships that trancend national boundaries. I allways enjoy hanging out with the people as much as playing the parties, and music has allowed me to do all of this. It has aided my communication with people I may have never met, and has educated me about life in other nations.
I`d say it has enhanced the enjoyment of my life.

I`ve met a few of your said "hypocrites, fantasists, sycophants and sheep" but probably far less than if I was working in banking for instance. On the whole I have met amazing, intelligent, well educated and wise people some of who`m I have made enduring and endearing relationships with.

That`s not a bad achievement for "mucking around in cubase"
Music has got me out of the rat race and the daily grind, and given me another way to live my life.

I really MUST get out of Yorkshire then.

[Si the Sigh]

Just heard Resist (React) has gone under again...

Any one able to back that info up?

[dirty_bass]

I really MUST get out of Yorkshire then.

I think you need to get out of england really.
It might change some of your rather right wing, bordering on fascist views.

[theledge]

I really MUST get out of Yorkshire then.

exactly