Vinyl is art...

[fils_here]

quite an intresting topic/read this by mr. c
http://www.endclub.com/endblog/music

[detfella]

yeah i love to watch a dj interact with his record box ...

[RDR]

But even playing AIFF and WAV files on computers still doesn’t sound as good as if you burned the file directly to CD, because of this compression in the computer system.

:lol:


The needle on a turntable picks up the sound of the room, which feeds back when the needle touches the playing surface of the vinyl - and when played on a big system gives the music another warmth again.

Depends on the room then doesnt it.


The sound of the system, the sound of the monitors, and even the sound of the crowd come through the needle; it’s these sounds regenerating on themselves that give this extra warmth to you, the end user, who’s experiencing the sound on the dancefloor

Added harmonics from standing waves... or reduced harmonics. Why not just have a microphone set up?....


Plus the distributors going under because DJs who really should be supporting these artists, labels et al are simply too lazy to carry vinyl!

Or they have BACK PROBLEMS, or they cant afford the cost of buying a vinyl, money which the majority of which didnt go back to the person who bloody made it. that Mr C seems so fond of.

Yes Mr C Vinyl is so much warmer, no quiblle there. But thats all its got isnt it.

[TechMouse]

Read this elsewhere. Absolutely riddled with basic inaccuracies.


The digital information is compressed, which in turn compresses the sound, which not only starts to make all kick drums and bass tones sound a little similar, but also the width of the high end becomes squashed making the music less dynamic.
Over-compression is an artefact of bad mastering, not bad media.


Not only has the sound of the tune been all-but ruined by converting it into an MP3 file, but there is also compression in the system within these digital computer DJ formats that compresses the sound even further.
What does that even mean?

What is this "compression in the system"?

Don't most people run limiters on their systems anyway?

The physical limitations of vinyl as a medium are much greater than anything digital. CDs have an infinitely low frequency response and their upper limit according to Nyquist is 22.05kHz - way above the limits of human hearing.

With vinyl, anything below 40Hz and you risk cutting an unplayable record - plus there's the whole RIAA curve (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIAA_equalization) thing.


But even playing AIFF and WAV files on computers still doesn’t sound as good as if you burned the file directly to CD, because of this compression in the computer system.
Errrr, what?

CDs are just PCM WAV at 16-but 44.1kHz. End of discussion.

If he wants to have a discussion about the relative qualities of the DA converters on high end soundcards vs those on CDJs then bring in on. (But he's going to lose).


So why not use CDs? The music was recorded digitally using digital software, it’s how it sounded in the studio. Correct, but there is still room for improvement, which is why when you cut to vinyl from a 24 bit WAV or from a DAT it always improves in sound.
Oh, it improves in sound does it?

How is that so, Mr C? How can the process of recording something on a physical medium add quality, do enlighten....


Just the process of cutting the record onto a slate or a copper plate adds a warmth and richness to the music that sounds better than the original digital recording. Any record label will tell you that they’re impressed with the improved ‘feel’ of the music after it’s been well cut for vinyl.
Bzzzt, wrong.

Replace "warmth and richness" with "harmonic distortion" and you're being less disingenuous. That's all this is: You cut to a record and you introduce distortion into the process.

Now, you may like that sound and judge it to be "better", but that's just your (aging DJ) ears telling you they prefer the soft edge of analogue clipping to pure digital. And fair enough, but don't try to bullshit anyone that it's an improvement in quality, because that's bollocks.


The needle on a turntable picks up the sound of the room, which feeds back when the needle touches the playing surface of the vinyl - and when played on a big system gives the music another warmth again. The sound of the system, the sound of the monitors, and even the sound of the crowd come through the needle; it’s these sounds regenerating on themselves that give this extra warmth to you, the end user, who’s experiencing the sound on the dancefloor. The sound of the crowd comes back out of the speakers so the crowd subliminally hear themselves played back in real time. This is a spiritual thing, a body thing, a soul thing, which is lost in digital DJ sets.
Well, I've seen professional audio engineers spend hours trying to eradicate feedback from club soundsystems, so I had been led to believe it's generally a no-no.

Once again, he's conflating "warmth" and "distortion".

And I'm highly dubious of this stuff about subliminally hearing yourself through the soundsystem.

All in all, D- for effort, pretty poor show Mr. C.

I'd have more respect for him if he just said "I know it's stupid but I just prefer vinyl, OK?"

That's my take on the subject. I know digital is a better medium, and I even use it from time to time (though we rarely have it set up in the club) but generally I just love spinning Techno on vinyl for my own personal reasons. (That said, I do Electronica sets on digital - I think they suit the medium more). I know it's a more limited format, I know it has more issues, and I don't care. If I ever go digital it will be to do live PAs.

I just think it's dishonest to throw invalid arguments at digital to justify your own foibles.

[...Dave...]

i was just about to rip his statements to bits too but no point now:lol:

total utter bollocks

[fils_here]

quite an intresting topic/read this by mr. c
http://www.endclub.com/endblog/music

edit... quite an entertaining read this :lol: :hissyfit: :lol:

[MARK ANXIOUS]

>But even playing AIFF and WAV files on computers still doesn’t sound as good as if >you burned the file directly to CD, because of this compression in the computer >system.

Hello?????

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Interesting read and fair play to him for what he believes. But yeah, unfortunately this article has it's fair share of inaccuracies. I thought the bit about the crowd coming through the needle was quite good, i'd never really thought of this, but if this really matters to you, why don't you put the channel up on a deck and just leave it on, playing nothing???

Totally agree with a DJ playing CD's looking shite, but then, if that's a problem, why not entertain ppl instead of mixing with your face down at the decks???

Also, if we really want to start drawing comparisons about sound quality, what about fluff on the needle (which, when you play vinyl tends to happen for at least 1/3 of your set). And what about records skipping or jumping because of badly set up stages and/or dj booths?

Vinyl DEFINITELY sounds better I think but ONLY when you're at home, with a perfectly cleaned record, good quality deck set-up and no outside stimuli messin up the equation. And in this club game, the amount of things you personally can't control as a dj is unreal. That's why nearly 75% of the time, I have to reach for the CD bag. Like I say, sure it looks crap, but just like Mr C, ALL i care about is the music quality. If you have to raise your hands a few extra times to compensate for lack of hand movement on a set of 1210's then so be it.

You know, I will say this. When I play CD's, I record about 80% of tracks I play off vinyl simply because the job the engineer does at the cutting plant is ABSOFEKINLUTELY essential in the equation of making music. The sooner people realise this and stop fretting over format, the better. To be fair, you CAN ever-so-slightly tell a difference with playing a recorded CD on a CDJ1000 to that of playing the same record on a 1210 (the way the pitch control works is ever-so-slightly noticable imho), but it's nothing to loose sleep over and if you're really that arsed about the sound of the pitch control, well the record the vinly with the pitch control on the 1210 at sort of around about how you want it for club play.

Wow, what was supposed to be a 1 sentence answer has just turned into a god damn essay hahahaha :hissyfit: :lol:

[dirty_bass]

All this stuff about formats, when the real concern should be the quality, standard, and originality of the music.

[Barely Human]

Im still waiting for the Betamax turntable to come out. Once we have that, the format wars will be over.

[Barely Human]

Oh. and Mr.C is tosser.

[eyeswithoutaface]

needed that hilarious read after a long day in work

god bless Mr C

and all who sail in him

[rhythmtech]

a girl i know went back to a hotel with mr. c a few years back and he couldnt get it up.

[fils_here]

a girl i know went back to a hotel with mr. c a few years back and he couldnt get it up.


did he have any salmon?

[mattboyslim]

did he have any salmon?sounds like he'd had a bit too much. And a bit of vera. Larvely

[clubsynthetic]

All this stuff about formats, when the real concern should be the quality, standard, and originality of the music.


was thinking that too.

I luv buying records, at the same time i hate it!

I just don't see why people are so hung up on small things with vinyl when the more when the music is actually on it to listen to. I hate carrying records across town - why would you want to?

And if its playing the music that bothers you (delivery to the audience) then there is no problem either 'cos you got it on serrato or traktor scratch! (which is what i'm starting to invest in now)

Keep the digital HANDS ON!

[mattboyslim]

people are hung up on vinyl because for many its an addiction. Black crack addiction as I like to call it.
I love using it, and to be fair, all those records already made are out there and aren't going to disappear, so maybe the digital revolution will help people get back into crate digging, which can be a very constructive thing for a scene as it educates people about music they may not have heard, and thus inspires creativity.

With so much vinyl already out there, i'm not gonna cry that the latest minimal record isn't available in a physical format

[clubsynthetic]

yeah, integration is the key dude.

and what happens when your vinyl is f*cked and you can't buy a new one?

[massplanck]

yeah, integration is the key dude.

and what happens when your vinyl is f*cked and you can't buy a new one?

You do without it?

What happens when your hardrive blows and you dont have it backed up?

[DannyBlack]

a girl i know went back to a hotel with mr. c a few years back and he couldnt get it up.

couldnt get what up? his record bags? he explains it in the article.

[mattboyslim]

yeah, integration is the key dude.

and what happens when your vinyl is f*cked and you can't buy a new one?
buy the mp3?

[FuK-NuT]

You do without it?

What happens when your hardrive blows and you dont have it backed up?

cry like me, since mine died 2 week ago....gona cost me to recover it all...

[mattboyslim]

cry like me, since mine died 2 week ago....gona cost me to recover it all...yeah see that is a pretty big reason to not totally switch to digital. happened to me a while back, but luckily the sites i had purchased music from were kind enough to let me me download again.

I now use a clone hard drive just in case, but what if the clone goes down? a back up of the back up is just silly, but you never know, it could happen

[massplanck]

I dont fancy lugging a RAID-Array around with me to gigs.

[RDR]

I dont fancy lugging a RAID-Array around with me to gigs.

:lol: Dont then.

Mountains out of mole hills. One of the golden rules is to ALWAYS back-up. Multiple copies etc etc.

No-one would blink an eye if I said that i took backup copies of my live set with me to a gig.

How different is it to taking spare needles? Aside from the different process, you're still taking spares.

[clubsynthetic]

You do without it?

What happens when your hardrive blows and you dont have it backed up?


Do without it? Nae bloody chance. I'm wanting all the good music i can get my hands on, no?


anyways, you loose a record, and can't buy it again, you do without that choon ENTIRELY. whats the point in that? i mean, come on, at least if you loose your 5000 tune collection on MP3 or wav or whatever you will most certainly get ALL OF THEM BACK as long as you bought them all legit, or you get them by the way of the leech. innit?

[TechMouse]

i'm not gonna cry that the latest minimal record isn't available in a physical format
I suppose that by definition, minimal tunes constitute the biggest waste of vinyl strictly in terms of music:vinyl ratio.

Didn't see that one coming.

[the_psychologist]

I think part of the reason this debate still rages is thus:

"Oldschool" DJs may be scared of updating to modern technology, and with this argument they can make the debate over which format is "art" or "warm" or whatever into the focus, and not have to ever face the fact that vinyl as a medium is limiting as **** in this era of digital solutions.

OK - I can mix two tracks together, cut between them, and maybe the mixer will have some delay I can use. WOW.

Or I can spend some months learning how Live works and then coming to terms with the fact that ALL BOUNDARIES ARE GONE.

I think the fear of suddenly having a massive pond to swim in is what motivates a lot of these tosspot articles. Proponents of the future of dance music technology can be written off as "anti-art" or "uninformed", even when they know full well where the future is headed.

[the_psychologist]

If you can't back your DJ collection up with a single 300GB drive, then you may want to think about sifting the chaff out a bit.

It boggles my mind that people still think backup is some mysterious process. You copy your whole DJ folder to another physical drive. Done. If both locations fail, then the gods have decided that your DJ career should end. Don't fight it.

[dirty_bass]

I think part of the reason this debate still rages is thus:

"Oldschool" DJs may be scared of updating to modern technology, and with this argument they can make the debate over which format is "art" or "warm" or whatever into the focus, and not have to ever face the fact that vinyl as a medium is limiting as **** in this era of digital solutions.

OK - I can mix two tracks together, cut between them, and maybe the mixer will have some delay I can use. WOW.

Or I can spend some months learning how Live works and then coming to terms with the fact that ALL BOUNDARIES ARE GONE.

I think the fear of suddenly having a massive pond to swim in is what motivates a lot of these tosspot articles. Proponents of the future of dance music technology can be written off as "anti-art" or "uninformed", even when they know full well where the future is headed.

clap:clap:clap:clap:clap:clap:

[RDR]

If you can't back your DJ collection up with a single 300GB drive, then you may want to think about sifting the chaff out a bit.

It boggles my mind that people still think backup is some mysterious process. You copy your whole DJ folder to another physical drive. Done. If both locations fail, then the gods have decided that your DJ career should end. Don't fight it.

Its simpler than that.

A single 20 CD wallet will easily contain all the music you could possibly want for a 2 hour set. And using CDJ1000/800 will mean decent control over the music.

Funnily enough i would always take a few pieces of vinyl for scratching purposes. What is a DJ if he cant scratch? I even take Vinyl if i do a live set for the same purpose.

I've always thought that to restrict yourself as a DJ to a particular style/genre/equipment base is foolish in the extreme. I mean you dont see the best guitarists only capable of playing one style, or in fact not being able to pick up a bass and use that.

Its laughable to me that there are DJs out there who cannot operate a CD deck/A turntable/Ableton/Any mixer presented to them.

Call yourself a DJ? The definition of DJ encompases many different skill sets and abilities andif you havnt got them all - get learning, because if you dont, you can be 100% sure that someone else well.

[the_psychologist]

Its simpler than that.

A single 20 CD wallet will easily contain all the music you could possibly want for a 2 hour set. And using CDJ1000/800 will mean decent control over the music.

Funnily enough i would always take a few pieces of vinyl for scratching purposes. What is a DJ if he cant scratch? I even take Vinyl if i do a live set for the same purpose.

I've always thought that to restrict yourself as a DJ to a particular style/genre/equipment base is foolish in the extreme. I mean you dont see the best guitarists only capable of playing one style, or in fact not being able to pick up a bass and use that.

Its laughable to me that there are DJs out there who cannot operate a CD deck/A turntable/Ableton/Any mixer presented to them.

Call yourself a DJ? The definition of DJ encompases many different skill sets and abilities andif you havnt got them all - get learning, because if you dont, you can be 100% sure that someone else well.

Yes, this is also critical.

At least spend some time learning how to beatmatch in case you somehow get stuck with shitty CD decks or something.

The ideal for me would be lappy running Live, wallet of CDs in case my laptop fails (or I just want to use a CD on top of everything else), and some vinyl for chucking into the mix and scratching (not that I'm good at it yet). This can all be condensed down to one smallish bag if you plan well.

[clubsynthetic]

nae point in being able to use them all if your shite at all of them.. I would rather see someone able to juggle/turntablism on decks incorporated into techno etc rather than someone sounding mediocre on ableton live. its not a prerequisite to play all forms but helps.

one may also be restricting themselves with what they can do within a particular format (music output wise/skills etc) by jumping at the chance of getting something newer quickly.

I don't think records are deed and buried. but i like to watch the artist i'm looking at do some amazing things visually (controlling the music) as well as musically. I'm scared that newer formats will give artist the option of how much they "feel like" playing live and how much is just automated. with old instruments like guitars artists were forced to play completely manually, i.e Hendrix with the guitar etc - looks and sounds amazing to me - nowadays artists have so many layers not all can be controlled at the same time manually - which kinda removes some o the magic away for me..

Isn't that any why your average uneducated joe blogs likes hardware better than software, cos you can see how much shit your doing on it (or more of it anyways) and it looks like more fun to play than software based stuff?

[dirty_bass]

nae point in being able to use them all if your shite at all of them.. I would rather see someone able to juggle/turntablism on decks incorporated into techno etc rather than someone sounding mediocre on ableton live. its not a prerequisite to play all forms but helps.

one may also be restricting themselves with what they can do within a particular format (music output wise/skills etc) by jumping at the chance of getting something newer quickly.

I don't think records are deed and buried. but i like to watch the artist i'm looking at do some amazing things visually (controlling the music) as well as musically. I'm scared that newer formats will give artist the option of how much they "feel like" playing live and how much is just automated. with old instruments like guitars artists were forced to play completely manually, i.e Hendrix with the guitar etc - looks and sounds amazing to me - nowadays artists have so many layers not all can be controlled at the same time manually - which kinda removes some o the magic away for me..

Isn't that any why your average uneducated joe blogs likes hardware better than software, cos you can see how much shit your doing on it (or more of it anyways) and it looks like more fun to play than software based stuff?

Interesting way of looking at things.
And yes, the new formats can, if the "artist" in unscrupulous, be very automated.
But then it`s up to those in the know to keep these people in check really.
Both the promoters and the Punters should keep aware of what is happening.
I`ve seen many hardware live acts miming liive. Most of the psytrance lot play from dat and mime.
The infamous Lab 4, famed for their live act (and very nice guys) totally fake it, play a CD and just mime behind mountains of keyboards.
So the technology is almost irrelevent, people will get away with faking it, if we let them.
Lets not lose too much perspective though, how hard is it really to play 2 records together? It`s not that much of a physical task either.
However, the whole point of a DJ is to play music that gets people moving by playing great music. Why do we expect them to perform now?
Is the music so droll we are bored of dancing and now need to stare at the DJ and wait for them to entertain us like a dancing monkey?
The dance music scene has always been driven by the music, and when it becomes driven by the cult of personality, it becomes wrong in my opinion, and we get people like Tiesto and that whole crock of shit that comes with it.
It slowly becomes another form of pop music then.
Dancing monkeys and organ grinders.

[DannyBlack]

you're all a bunch of whinging cunts! :lol: whatever medium you use, perfect it and have a laugh using it.

[massplanck]

Well abelton is great and all that. But for djing. I dunno. I dont see the point in re-arranging other peoples tracks for playing out. Is'nt that what the producer of the record spent day + weeks at? :laughing:

[tocsin]

I think part of the reason this debate still rages is thus:

"Oldschool" DJs may be scared of updating to modern technology, and with this argument they can make the debate over which format is "art" or "warm" or whatever into the focus, and not have to ever face the fact that vinyl as a medium is limiting as **** in this era of digital solutions.


In regards to that article, it's always amusing when the obviously clueless talk like experts. ;) But, without digressing on that, and adding to your "oldschool" point, I think a lot of it has to do with resentment. I started with vinyl. I think it's generally easier for me to mix with. That's about my only real preference to it. But, for so many people that have taken it further, somewhere along the way, I've almost always found that a complaint is registered about "kids" not having to look hard for their "rare gems" while building up an equal or better music collection for cheap or, God forbid, free.

[RDR]

I dont see the point in re-arranging other peoples tracks for playing out.

I think larry levan and nearly 100% of the early NY house DJs might argue with you there.

They HAD to re-edit tracks to make them usable on the dancefloor, add intro's outtros and edit the break. So did Kool Herc. The DJ needed these tools to perform.

[fils_here]

you're all a bunch of whinging cunts! :lol: whatever medium you use, perfect it and have a laugh using it.


:lol: :Yes:

[clubsynthetic]

Interesting way of looking at things.
And yes, the new formats can, if the "artist" in unscrupulous, be very automated.
But then it`s up to those in the know to keep these people in check really.
Both the promoters and the Punters should keep aware of what is happening.
I`ve seen many hardware live acts miming liive. Most of the psytrance lot play from dat and mime.
The infamous Lab 4, famed for their live act (and very nice guys) totally fake it, play a CD and just mime behind mountains of keyboards.
So the technology is almost irrelevent, people will get away with faking it, if we let them.
Lets not lose too much perspective though, how hard is it really to play 2 records together? It`s not that much of a physical task either.
However, the whole point of a DJ is to play music that gets people moving by playing great music. Why do we expect them to perform now?
Is the music so droll we are bored of dancing and now need to stare at the DJ and wait for them to entertain us like a dancing monkey?
The dance music scene has always been driven by the music, and when it becomes driven by the cult of personality, it becomes wrong in my opinion, and we get people like Tiesto and that whole crock of shit that comes with it.
It slowly becomes another form of pop music then.
Dancing monkeys and organ grinders.

i suppose technology isn't important at all, just what one is doing with it. I just get the feeling that the more technology allows one to be lazy, the more one will be in general.

The reason i expect djs to perform is the fact that thats what separates them these days from any other old dj. Indeed, the music is the most important thing. I just cream when i see a good performer play good music. As long as the music is good. If not, the artist in question looks very, very bad. I think its charisma what gets me by the baws.

i would have given my right arm for Gayle San when i seen her play at dogma.

[DannyBlack]

playing mp3's to me is like eating tinned cabbage with a badger. sure it may be fun, but in the long run carrots will always be orange.

[massplanck]

Which is better Zoroastrianism or Unicorns?

[TechMouse]

Zoroastrianism, definitely.

[conflict]

a girl i know went back to a hotel with mr. c a few years back and he couldnt get it up.

that "girl" was you

[maily]

I dont see the point in re-arranging other peoples tracks for playing out. Is'nt that what the producer of the record spent day + weeks at? :laughing:

there's a hella big mountain o tracks out there that need this doing imo some really cracking sections in otherwise average tunes. finding those has always been part o the job:
edits [tape/digital/beat juggling]
cate digging

same difference.
if you love it you will.

"digging won't make a bad dj good but it will make a good dj better" dj shadow.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=1gpKYnRdf0A

[RDR]

I dont see the point in re-arranging other peoples tracks for playing out. Is'nt that what the producer of the record spent day + weeks at?

House producer