Music Theory - Moved from Metro

[Aratron]

i'd really like to learn more about music theory.
i really struggled with music at school always came last, and have never leanrt the basics of music. I think i am really tone-deaf.

Thinking of splashing out and buying this.

Anyone else got any links. Tips. Same program i can borrow?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/EarMaster-5-Professional-PC/dp/B000RNKIB6/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&s=software&qid=1200954233&sr=1-10

[tonyc2002]

That program actually sounds (no pun intended) pretty good. Let me know how you get on if you buy it :)

As for music theory, I dont know alot about it really except that its very deep and complicated. I scratched the surface when I was doing my BTEC, but it was literally only a two hour tour about different musical scales that are used around the world.

Funnily though (you might like this) I remember Paul telling us there was a musical note that was banned in the middle ages (cant remember which one) nick-named the "devils note", and if someone played it they would be executed for blasphemy or something. Harsh :lol:

[Jay Pace]

I hated musical theory. Its dry, boring and fairly useless unless you have a burning desire to start transposing 303 riffs into different keys and adapting them for a bassoon.

I'd go with something more fun, fruity loops or something and a stack of tutorials.

[robin m]

I'd go with something more fun, fruity loops or something and a stack of tutorials.

I second this... a copy of fruityloops and a cd full of crap samples got me into it all.

You should definitely give it a go Calv - I bet you a tenner you get bitten by the bug and can wave goodbye to the next several years of your spare time.

Problem is that there's an increasingly infinite amount of stuff to learn when you get into it - I feel like I know less about music than when I started trying to make it, and I knew **** all back then. Several years later and I still haven't made one thing I'm happy with but I've enjoyed every minute of working on it so that'll have to do :)

[dirty_bass]

Well, the best and most indespensable part of music theory is learning your scales, and chord progressions.
It`s exceedingly helpful when trying to creat great melody, and for making interesting chordal arrangments beyond the standard techno 3 note chord.

[SlavikSvensk]

whether or not you enjoy music theory largely depends on whether you can (and want) to "think like that." a lot of people benefit greatly from it. others play music more intuitively, and for those people theory is dull and can even constrain creativity. for me it's been back and forth. i took a couple theory and composition classes in uni that were not a lot of fun. took an acoustics class and loved it.

[RDR]

That program actually sounds (no pun intended) pretty good. Let me know how you get on if you buy it :)

As for music theory, I dont know alot about it really except that its very deep and complicated. I scratched the surface when I was doing my BTEC, but it was literally only a two hour tour about different musical scales that are used around the world.

Funnily though (you might like this) I remember Paul telling us there was a musical note that was banned in the middle ages (cant remember which one) nick-named the "devils note", and if someone played it they would be executed for blasphemy or something. Harsh :lol:

it wasnt a musical NOTE it was a chord

[tonyc2002]

it wasnt a musical NOTE it was a chord

Yep, your right :Yes:

[maily]

it wasnt a musical NOTE it was a chord

nope it's an interval, 6 semitones.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tritone
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/4952646.stm

[Aratron]

nope it's an interval, 6 semitones.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tritone
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/4952646.stm

lol

[RDR]

nope it's an interval, 6 semitones.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tritone
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/4952646.stm

oh shit yeah....

[massplanck]

:laughing:

Aratron. Forget theory. Start playing an instrument.. just as long as you enjoy it, thats all that counts. I reckon youd be great on the theramin,.

[FILTERZ]

http://www.musictheory.net/


heres a nice link for some very simple music theory lessons online

brilliant they are

[RDR]

http://www.musictheory.net/


heres a nice link for some very simple music theory lessons online

brilliant they are

+1, i use these in class with my learners!

[maily]

:laughing:

Aratron. Forget theory. Start playing an instrument.. just as long as you enjoy it, thats all that counts. I reckon youd be great on the theramin,.

yeah, or start playing with fruity or rebirth or reason, just keep bashing notes in until u start seeing the patterns of what works.

[FILTERZ]

http://chordmaps.com/


this one has good chord maps for all keys

[theledge]

personally i think it's a very good idea to learn some of this stuff. if nothing else it gives you a broader understanding and some new ideas. i found that learning it encouraged me to write music of many different kinds, and vary my style a lot more.

and as dirtybass says even a basic understanding makes constructing melodies and harmonies a lot easier. it's quite dry and mathematical reading from a book so you need to apply it to music approximating something you like while you learn it.

Calvin, i've got a table of scales and chord/note positions i made a few years ago, i use it all the time making music, hit me on msn and i will send it to you if you want.

[Aratron]

personally i think it's a very good idea to learn some of this stuff. if nothing else it gives you a broader understanding and some new ideas. i found that learning it encouraged me to write music of many different kinds, and vary my style a lot more.

and as dirtybass says even a basic understanding makes constructing melodies and harmonies a lot easier. it's quite dry and mathematical reading from a book so you need to apply it to music approximating something you like while you learn it.

Calvin, i've got a table of scales and chord/note positions i made a few years ago, i use it all the time making music, hit me on msn and i will send it to you if you want.

thanks mate, problem is i dont even understand the rudimentary basics.
i know know about counting bars and stuff, thro djing.

i hear acid techno is in the key of c, but i dont know wot it really means.

[eppertheleper]

Well, it all really depends on what kind of music you're interested in making. If you want to make techno, you really don't need to know much of anything about music in the classical sense. Since pure techno is a straight 4/4 meter, meaning four beats per measure and a quarter note gets one beat. I'm sure some could be simplified into 2/2 or drawn out into more complex time sigs, but that's pretty much it.

Also, when talking about techno, what key it's in really doesn't make a bit of difference unless you're trying to do something with pianos, strings, or vocals. I don't know if the 303 is set in the key of C or not, but it might be limited to that one key. Frankly it doesn't matter since most of the sounds that come out of the thing could be called a pitch, but only in the widest definition of the term.

Basically, what key it's in means which notes you can play together and have it not sound like crap, and everybody in the orchestra needs to be in the same key or it will. C is pretty much the "easiest" because it has no flats or sharps. These are the black keys on the piano, and are the adjustments that must be made in other keys in order for the notes to, again, avoid sounding like crap.

Oh, I'm blathering, maybe I should have an online theory course here in the forum! I'll get to the point. If you're interested in playing with a group, from a small band up to a full orchestra, then you'll need to take some classes in theory. I haven't ever played with theory software, so I don't know how well it works. I would imagine they've got some good stuff out there.

If you just want to make some techno, then don't worry about it. Just buy Reason and start tinkering.

Oh, and I'm pretty sure there's nothing you can do if you're truly tone deaf. If you just haven't honed your skill, then you can work on it, but people who lack the cognitive ability to differentiate between tones are that way for life.

[theledge]

If you just want to make some techno, then don't worry about it. Just buy Reason and start tinkering.

Doesn't hurt to broaden your horizons a bit though. Maybe not at first, but eventually higher quality, more original techno is the likely result.

[FILTERZ]

Doesn't hurt to broaden your horizons a bit though. Maybe not at first, but eventually higher quality, more original techno is the likely result.



here here

[Aratron]

Doesn't hurt to broaden your horizons a bit though. Maybe not at first, but eventually higher quality, more original techno is the likely result.

yes im not interested in making techno, esp not the way its going with digital/mp3 etc

just want to know the very basics of music, so im gonna look at those sites, hopefully learn something.

[eppertheleper]

Doesn't hurt to broaden your horizons a bit though. Maybe not at first, but eventually higher quality, more original techno is the likely result.Very true. It can only help, but you'd do better to study rhythm structures than music theory if you're interested in making techno.

Since you're not, then by all means check out the software. I don't know how good it is, but I'm sure there are some decent programs out there that could help. Personally, I would recommend trying to find some classes in your area. The only problem with software is that you can't get immediate answers to your questions. Also, group learning would have to help your comprehension of this subject.

[Aratron]

Very true. It can only help, but you'd do better to study rhythm structures than music theory if you're interested in making techno.

Since you're not, then by all means check out the software. I don't know how good it is, but I'm sure there are some decent programs out there that could help. Personally, I would recommend trying to find some classes in your area. The only problem with software is that you can't get immediate answers to your questions. Also, group learning would have to help your comprehension of this subject.

how can you know if you are tone deaf or not dude. i've been told when i sing i am tone deaf, but i think can distinguish sounds and stuff dude.

[theledge]

mate, being tone deaf is very rare indeed. It literally means, being unable to distinguish the pitches of two different notes... as being different at all - i think it has physical root

you are almost certainly not tone deaf

not being able to sing is nothing to do with it, i am exactly the same, can't sing for shit :laughing:
sometimes, tone deaf is used by music teachers to mean people can't sing, maybe that's where you got that from??

[eppertheleper]

I'm afraid the only real answer is probably trial and error. There are some people who are tone deaf and others who just lack musical training, but can learn how to sing on pitch. I think the number of people who are truly tone deaf is pretty small. Yup, just found this article I remembered hearing on NPR several years ago (http://www.npr.org/programs/atc/features/2002/jan/tonedeaf/020116.tonedeaf.html). Most tone deafness is due to physical trauma, illness, or deformity. If you don't have those, then the chances of you being truly tone deaf are pretty slim (The woman in the article was the first documented case, so there you go).

You might be able to go to an ear, nose, and throat specialist and find out, or they could point you in the right direction. Either that or a vocal instructor, but depending on the musician, some of them can be pretty snooty. If you can find a nice one to work with who isn't condescending, then that's the way to go. They should be able to tell you within a few sessions if there's hope for you or not.

[Aratron]

I'm afraid the only real answer is probably trial and error. There are some people who are tone deaf and others who just lack musical training, but can learn how to sing on pitch. I think the number of people who are truly tone deaf is pretty small. Yup, just found this article I remembered hearing on NPR several years ago (http://www.npr.org/programs/atc/features/2002/jan/tonedeaf/020116.tonedeaf.html). Most tone deafness is due to physical trauma, illness, or deformity. If you don't have those, then the chances of you being truly tone deaf are pretty slim (The woman in the article was the first documented case, so there you go).

You might be able to go to an ear, nose, and throat specialist and find out, or they could point you in the right direction. Either that or a vocal instructor, but depending on the musician, some of them can be pretty snooty. If you can find a nice one to work with who isn't condescending, then that's the way to go. They should be able to tell you within a few sessions if there's hope for you or not.

Unusual responses to sensory stimuli. For example, some people with Asperger syndrome may be hypersensitive to specific sounds, textures or colours. Others may be oblivious to discomfort or pain.
i have aspergers syndrome. also arguably known in Sweden as DAMP (deficits of attention, motor control and perception.)

Erm when i talk i have quite a flat monotone voice, not so much now im adult, but some people notice. and i sing in same way, and i can't dance, and i have found it difficult to learn music in any traditional kind of way (classroom based).

[Aratron]

mate, being tone deaf is very rare indeed. It literally means, being unable to distinguish the pitches of two different notes... as being different at all - i think it has physical root

you are almost certainly not tone deaf

not being able to sing is nothing to do with it, i am exactly the same, can't sing for shit :laughing:
sometimes, tone deaf is used by music teachers to mean people can't sing, maybe that's where you got that from??

see above dude. you going to the soitiz party in notts btw?

[theledge]

see above dude. you going to the soitiz party in notts btw?

don't think its a soitiz one mate, i won't be there this time anyway

bit cold at this time of year too

[Aratron]

don't think its a soitiz one mate, i won't be there this time anyway

bit cold at this time of year too

in march innit

[RDR]

yes im not interested in making techno, esp not the way its going with digital/mp3

There's so much wrong with that statement I dont know where to start...

presumably Cal you find it distasteful to have music on your hard drive as well?

:confused:

[Aratron]

There's so much wrong with that statement I dont know where to start...

presumably Cal you find it distasteful to have music on your hard drive as well?

:confused:

lol. yes obviously i dont know what im talking about. im not denigrating your digital music. just the generation of wankers i see locally, who think that live techno is pressing the play button on that mp3 file on a laptop and passing it off as some klind of performance.

[TechMouse]

just the generation of wankers i see locally, who think that live techno is pressing the play button on that mp3 file on a laptop and passing it off as some klind of performance.
As opposed to the generation of aging ravers that press "start" on a Technics deck and pass it off as a live performance?

[MARK ANXIOUS]

i stumbled upon this the other day, looks really really great. anyone else used this?

http://www.ars-nova.com/aboutpm5/index.html

[MARK ANXIOUS]

As opposed to the generation of aging ravers that press "start" on a Technics deck and pass it off as a live performance?



:lol: :lol: :lol: i love that response hahahaha !!!

[RDR]

lol. yes obviously i dont know what im talking about. im not denigrating your digital music. just the generation of wankers i see locally, who think that live techno is pressing the play button on that mp3 file on a laptop and passing it off as some klind of performance.

Fair enough, i just find it odd that you associate techno with mp3.

And i didnt say you dont know what you are talking about cal.

[massplanck]

I am actually glad that less stuff is making it to vinyl. Its a natural chaff separator for me. Only the best\most commited should make it to vinyl now.

[RDR]

I am actually glad that less stuff is making it to vinyl. Its a natural chaff separator for me. Only the best\most commited should make it to vinyl now.

Or just people who have money to pay for the production of it?

[TechMouse]

I am actually glad that less stuff is making it to vinyl. Its a natural chaff separator for me. Only the best\most commited should make it to vinyl now.
Should is the biggest word in the English language, plancky.

[Aratron]

Fair enough, i just find it odd that you associate techno with mp3.

And i didnt say you dont know what you are talking about cal.

i know dude, but sometimes i really don't know what im talking about !!

[massplanck]

Should is the biggest word in the English language, plancky.


Should have said IS. Its definately true for the stuff I'm buying at the moment.

Deepchord is a great example. Their stuff is flying out the door on vinyl.. same for the new detroit stuff.

[massplanck]

Or just people who have money to pay for the production of it?

?

People found the money in the 90's. You dont have to shell out on hardware anymore to make tracks, you dont even have to pay for music if you dont want to.

Determined people will find a way.

If the music is good enough/stands out. It will sell. On any medium.

[RDR]

?

People found the money in the 90's. You dont have to shell out on hardware anymore to make tracks, you dont even have to pay for music if you dont want to.

Determined people will find a way.

If the music is good enough/stands out. It will sell. On any medium.

The medium isnt the issue.

Its the production of the medium, anyone can put out an mp3, and anyone with money can put out vinyl. It doesnt mean the music will be any good does it? Hardback books are not a byword for quality.

[RDR]

i know dude, but sometimes i really don't know what im talking about !!

You confuse me sometimes ya big lump! :wink:

[massplanck]

Well If someone has money and is churning out vinyl they wont have much money for very long if its crap & doesnt sell. Even if they were loaded they would be pretty stupid to throw money down the drain just to press vinyl because they can.

On the other hand > Someone with an absolutley amazing piece of music, packaging & philosophy might just make it.

[massplanck]

Maybe its some weird kind of spiral. PC music production => 10000s more people making music & churning out the mp3 releases.. I'd wonder if half the stuff has been through the hands of a mastering engineer (not some dude with wavelab) & of course we have the whole mp3 quality debate.

I dunno. Techno was born in one of the poorest & rundown shitholes (Detroit) by a group of black guys who I doubt were too flush with the cash. They were just determined to succeed. And they did.

I'm not into starting the whole mp3 vinyl debate but personally I dont have to compromise myself by use abelton or mp3s if i dont want to. Nor do I have to restrict myself to using software to make tunes if I dont want to (just because its too expensive to break my balls and save for a Virus or something). Suffer for your art... and if that means getting grief because I think vinyl cant be surpassed or that abelton doesnt have the funk then so be it. ;)

[RDR]

I dont have to compromise myself by use abelton or mp3s if i dont want to. Nor do I have to restrict myself to using software to make tunes if I dont want to

I think the debate has been covered already, We both have a position on this, at the end of the day the machine matters not.. the results stand for themselves - im sure we agree on this.

Its not just one person churning out vinyl though is it? Its many different people churning it out. And the ratio of crap to good is a constant in terms of all creativity i think, its the perception of what people deem to be quality that varies, this genre is out, this genre is in. What was yesterday's caviar is todays fish and chips.

By god i wish it was all still vinyl again, i genuinley do, it has so much going for it that the current situation is sad, not terminal but sad. If people can make a go of their music then so be it, vinyl is a means to an end, not an end in itself.

Musicially? It matters not. Democratically - it really does matter. But then the real power of the music lies in how many people like it. If a tune is played in a forest and no-one is there to hear it, is it really played? to coin a mis-used phrase.

Im just gonna keep on doing what i do and hope that it all works out.

PS- I think we hijakced cal's thread a little. perhaps I should move it.

[massplanck]

I think the debate has been covered already, We both have a position on this, at the end of the day the machine matters not.. the results stand for themselves - im sure we agree on this.
.

Yes. But what have been the results? The demise of techno & even more shitly produced music. 100 times more shit music than in the heady days of vinyl. A thowaway\substandard culture where a song gets listened for 10 secs and then its on to the next track...nevermind the comparison of mp3 vs vinyl. Mc Techno\No funk. Man i have been listening to techno for 10 years plus now. The days of a vinyl release being a dj tool are over. Abelton is the new dj tool. So for a vinyl to be suceesfull now It has to be a complete ****ing work of art to make it. And for that I'm very happy. I really really dont want to hear every second loop people make that gets put up on their myspace account, nor do I want to hear a digital release mastered by a random punter with a copy of soundforge & a SOS mastering article which has not had any quality control (ie the way record label owners used to vet music/artists). I'm making this a personal choice. There is a certain person I know (on this forum) who for certain regional economic circumstances has gone without lunch for weeks end just so he could afford to buy ONE vinyl. I want this guy to succeed. And you know what he will.

You can take a stand if you really want to. How about putting your heart and soul into just one ep for 12 months and getting it pressed to wax rather than making 60 in a year and throwing out 10 digital releases?

Look at Omar S (the grandson of detroit techno!). His vinyl albums & LPs all sell out. His stuff cant be bought in any record shop (online or in the highstreet). He sells them all himself through his own little website.

[RDR]

Yes. But what have been the results? The demise of techno & even more shitly produced music. 100 times more shit music than in the heady days of vinyl. A thowaway\substandard culture where a song gets listened for 10 secs and then its on to the next track...nevermind the comparison of mp3 vs vinyl. Mc Techno\No funk. Man i have been listening to techno for 10 years plus now. The days of a vinyl release being a dj tool are over. Abelton is the new dj tool. So for a vinyl to be suceesfull now It has to be a complete ****ing work of art to make it. And for that I'm very happy. I really really dont want to hear every second loop people make that gets put up on their myspace account, nor do I want to hear a digital release mastered by a random punter with a copy of soundforge & a SOS mastering article which has not had any quality control (ie the way record label owners used to vet music/artists). I'm making this a personal choice. There is a certain person I know (on this forum) who for certain regional economic circumstances has gone without lunch for weeks end just so he could afford to buy ONE vinyl. I want this guy to succeed. And you know what he will.

You can take a stand if you really want to. How about putting your heart and soul into just one ep for 12 months and getting it pressed to wax rather than making 60 in a year and throwing out 10 digital releases?

Look at Omar S (the grandson of detroit techno!). His vinyl albums & LPs all sell out. His stuff cant be bought in any record shop (online or in the highstreet). He sells them all himself through his own little website.

The demise of techno has very little to do with mp3. Your blaming a medium for the death of a genre? Vinyl was around long before techno ever was. And looking back onyl ended up containing vinyl because HOUSE djs started using it. Now house DJs dont use it much anymore (none of the house DJs i know buy vinyl anymore AT ALL - but there are obviously some who do still, in my experience anyway)


100 times more shit music than in the heady days of vinyl

Again this assumes that medium defines the quality of personal production. It doesnt, it just means like you said, that people put up shit tracks on their myspazz player, which is interesting from the perspective of listening to how people percieve a genre of music or where the 'Proles' of music making are heading as a semi-homogenous group - but it doesnt mean they are all making records to be put up on mp3 sites.

There are a lot of shit tracks out there, no quality control. But thats go F ALL to do with the makers, people will make music no matter what, thats life, nothing changed within people who have a dream of making it big, they were just given the opporunity to torture the rest of us with it. The propblem lies with....

The Aggregators (Distros NEW name.. lol ) They play the numbers game. Sure, put yourself out there mate, we'll take you on if you make a few sales its all good. Now this has massive down sides to it as we covered already - but it refused to see it all as a negative.

As for people selling vinyl from their own personal sites, cracking, i couldnt agree more, its something I want to do as well and im glad the distros have their fingers out of that pie it might mean vinyl actually makes money for people who need it. But then the process becomes nothing more than specialist vinyl sellers in bits and bats here and there.

IMO of course planky ;)

[NRG_Phil]

http://audio.tutsplus.com/articles/general/the-benefits-of-learning-to-play-music/

[DarkYoung]

http://audio.tutsplus.com/articles/general/the-benefits-of-learning-to-play-music/
tres bien