what am i hearing in this track?

[tracatak]

hello all

my question is in this ALEX CALVER track what am i/you hearing as far the drums/percussion

the reason i ask is because i think im trying to get too many things out of the kick(with reverb and distortion/high pass filter)

i think im forgetting to add something it can be something as simple as 3 kicks one for highs, mids and lows (which id like to hear some good examples of what works best and maybe why)

or is it that i should bounce the kick w/ all the effects (high pass, verb , etc)

then reverse that kick and place it a little offbeat or every other kick etc..i get decent results when i do this..but i seem to think i hear a kick drum with reverb going and maybe something reversed layerd under it (or maybe i am just hearing the same kick copied/cloned two or three times or so with different eqs on each (one stressed on the highs , one on the lows.etc)

i understand there is probally a million ways to do it ..but id really appriciate any1s input on it..here is a example of a track where i can hear it clearly..basically you may have to dumb it down and listen to only the basic percussion and kicks of the song ...i already can figure out how to get the vocals and such to fit in there...but i can only get so much outta my kicks..pleae help im ina slump..only produce the same lacking kicks..what am i missing..?

soon i promise to post some loop or two that i have written to show u how far i i tend to go before hitting a wall...thanks again

jason

[tracatak]

http://www.bangingtunes.com//mp3/3sr003_a.mp3


here is the track i mentioned above..

[supergroover]

i dont think its common to put reverb on the kick. Make sure you have a nice decent kick to start with. Put several kicks on top of eachother, one for the punch, one for the bottom end. Or just make your own kick from the start. and dont add to much to it effect wise.
in the track it indeed sounds like there is some reversed percussion going on just before the kick. It could be anything. Try the kick reversed but lower the volume a little or take out most of the punch on the reversed kick.

There is shitloads of percussion going on in the track. I think thats where you want to add some fxs instead of the kick. Some examples of your stuff would indeed help.
Good luck!

[MARK ANXIOUS]

wow, i think you're thinking waaaaaaaaay to complicated..

that kick is actually a very simple kick, but it's the fact that it's got alot of space coupled with some clever compression that makes it sound hard and more complex than it actually is.

there's obviously bags and bags of percussion here but it's all side-chained with that kick too make it sound hard as hell.

i recommend doing this:

sample a bit of that track where the kick comes out. put that on channel 1. then get your fave kicks and try to make one sound the same on channel 2. you'll need to experiment with sidechain compression and other bits and bobs, but the principle will be the same as alex used, and yoou'll learn shit loads from the experiement ;)

remember also to use SUBTRACTIVE eq on the kick to make it sound right too...

good luck... :wink:

[RDR]

+1 for that

Calver and all those boys love their ducking.


Almost as much as witchfinders! :lol: :eek:

[supergroover]

there's obviously bags and bags of percussion here but it's all side-chained with that kick too make it sound hard as hell.


how does sidechaining the percussion make the kick sound louder? The percussion will be a little lower in volume during the kick (or attack + release time of the sidechain really). But if its too much it will probably sound annoying. So i dont think that really does the trick making it sound hard. But i can be mistaken here of course ;)

[stjohn]

the less sounds there are masking the kick... the more perceived loudness the kick will have!

[dirty_bass]

That`s actually a relatively soft, un punchy kick there in my opinion.
It stands out simply because almost nothing hits on the donw beat due to compression ducking and programming.

You can hear at the first break, the sub is taken out from the kick, and it sounds like a fairly mundane 909.

The power of this kick is mainly due to the immense sub riding underneath it.
This is either another long, boomy bassy kick played along with the main 909, or some some line sidechained to the kick, giving the impression of a long extended big room BOOM.

Very easy to do really.

Take a nice solid 909 kick as your main kick.
Take another bass boosted 808 style kick with a long release, and copy the kick pattern (or double it up, so 8 beats per bar instead of 4, for that extra rumbling schranz mullarky)
Sidechain big kick to normal kick.

There are a number of variations to this, using short, rapid sub notes generated on a synth instead of second kick to creat a more dynamic rumble etc

The power is in the bass though.

Easy.

[tracatak]

thanks to every1 again.

.i have thought a bit about all these ideas in the past.

.your answers are helping me comprehend more and i realize now i do understand (somewhat of what i hear) even though i do tend to over think things at times.
...i will try all of these experiments as mark said.
and also try to think more simple..its just that i enjoy the music on such a high level i think it must take loads of work to write something..although it does take time im sure some of you have good formulas by now to at least get you started..

either way

trial and error of course helps a lot

.love this place..!!

be back soon with examples of my work so i can start learning that way too..

Ps MArk where on this site/forum can i d/l some of your mixes..saw you at WEMF (CANADA) again last year..lovin it. of course..talked about it the whole way back to nyc...

<img src="http://a57.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/68/l_6335ad96bb4b69260bbc5a3648368e20.gif">

[tracatak]

Can some1 explain further "SUBTRACTIVE EQ" on the kick



is that when u take out the lows OR take out the highs..etc


or am i way off...its probably something i do instinctively already but not sure what its called.. =)


thanks..

[tracatak]

ok this one is for dirty bass

just wanna make sure i follow correctly


Take a nice solid 909 kick as your main kick.
Take another bass boosted 808 style kick with a long release, and copy the kick pattern (or double it up, so 8 beats per bar instead of 4, for that extra rumbling schranz mullarky)
Sidechain big kick to normal kick.



got the main kick going 1 2 3 4 like normal

now you say take a another kick and stretch( or just make the release longer) it to be longer then the main kick and EQ it to be more likea bass line instead of a punchy kick( i think as long as it goes past the main punchy kick is what ur telling me to shoot for)

whenu say copy the kick pattern u mean make this longer bassier kick also the normal 1 2 3 4

double it u mean 1 and 2 and 3 and 4 so its inbetween the normal kick as well..i only ask this cuz im not sure i hear that well to notice schranz tracks doing this..i take your word for it i just gotta try and listen closer or find one that does this..


now take the sidechainer and place it on the first punchy kick and place a compressor on the long bassy kick ???????????????

then i guess play with the threshold till the bassy kick is ducking under the main kick and creating that sub line power schranzyish typa kick...at lesat the one in the posted example..


i have tried this or something similar in the past (due to a friends recommendation) got soem ok results then just went to shit like usual ..but i was over distorting everything at the time

any suggestions to when i get the sub to sit with the punchy kick how to go from there. im thinking Eq the bass to my liking to make it harder or not and maybe add lots of percussion to fill up the track a little better..so its not jsut plain kick n sub sidechainded together

[supergroover]

ok this one is for dirty bass
got the main kick going 1 2 3 4 like normal
now you say take a another kick and stretch( or just make the release longer) it to be longer then the main kick and EQ it to be more likea bass line instead of a punchy kick( i think as long as it goes past the main punchy kick is what ur telling me to shoot for)

dont stretch it. just add another kick which has a long release, meaning it isnt just a short thud. But has some tail going. and dont make it a bass(guitar)line. its simply isnt. the idea is to combine to kick of which you use the punch of one and the bassy feel of the other.



now take the sidechainer and place it on the first punchy kick and place a compressor on the long bassy kick ???????????????
read about sidechchaining. http://www.soundonsound.com/search?section=%2F&Keyword=side+chaining



then i guess play with the threshold till the bassy kick is ducking under the main kick and creating that sub line power schranzyish typa kick...at lesat the one in the posted example..

play with the release and attack to get the desired effect.



any suggestions to when i get the sub to sit with the punchy kick how to go from there. im thinking Eq the bass to my liking to make it harder or not and maybe add lots of percussion to fill up the track a little better..so its not jsut plain kick n sub sidechainded together

put your favourite track in your daw and see how they do the build up, build down etc.

[loopdon]

I will try and explain some things here.

808 kicks tend to have less 'tops' or click or whatever than 909 kicks.
That's why 808 kicks lend themselves to be used for basslines. Especially in drum and bass that's a common technique to generate the 'sub' - part of the bassline. They also exhibit a longer decay time than other kicks. More the slowly decaying boom-type of kick. They are also easily tunable.

They can, as DB said, be sidechained to the 909 kick so they duck in volume when the 909 kick triggers and go up inbetween. This + adding an additional 808 inbetween the normal ones will help to emphasize the typical 'oompa'-character common of lots of schranz (sorry), making it pump nicely and subby in order to provide a solid and driving foundation for the rest of the tune.

Instead of using 808 kicks, possibly with an extra bass boost in the sub region you could use synths or lowpassed percussive loops, that have say bongos, congas, toms in them to provide the needed 'rumble'. And sidechain compress them accordingly.

It is important to get the kick - bass relationship right to lay a solid foundation. If this part doesn't work the entire track is likely to fall apart.

You don't build houses on sand :no:

Hope this helps a little.

[Barely Human]

Can some1 explain further "SUBTRACTIVE EQ" on the kick



is that when u take out the lows OR take out the highs..etc


or am i way off...its probably something i do instinctively already but not sure what its called.. =)


thanks..

Subtractive EQ'ing is where you take out the freqs you dont need instead of boosting the ones you want. This leaves more room for other sounds and gives you more headroom and less clutter. Especially good for stopping your bottom end getting muddy.

[tracatak]

so i should take out the HIGH END (subtractice eq) when making kicks


and take out the LOW END when making more percussion parts


or vice versa

[BloodStar]

so i should take out the HIGH END (subtractice eq) when making kicks and take out the LOW END when making more percussion parts or vice versa

you dont need to take out everything, you can make subtle cuts in problematic areas.
generally, subtractive eq means cutting instead of boosting. When some frequencies are busy due to more instruments playing in the same area, just cut those frequencies on the sounds which taking the place of the other sound, you want to hear in that area.

[dirty_bass]

so i should take out the HIGH END (subtractice eq) when making kicks


and take out the LOW END when making more percussion parts


or vice versa

I think this goes beyond simple Q&A
You need to read about subtractive EQ, there are no generalities or hard rules, which I think is what you are asking for.

There are plenty of good articles on the net

Learn the principle techniques and then apply them to your own music.

[neilried]

Subtractive EQ'ing.....

.....Especially good for stopping your bottom end getting muddy.

Will this work at festivals?

Sorry.... Im simple and it made me laugh... :o)