RA: Month to Month - Analysis of Vinyl and Techno...hmmmm

[RDR]

http://www.residentadvisor.net/feature-read.aspx?id=880

[rhythmtech]

good article..

[MARK ANXIOUS]

brilliant article.. well written and well thought out.

thoroughly enjoyed reading that :)

[djshiva]

i really dug this article. one of my main gripes with people refusing to release digitally is that they feel somehow like the genie can be put back into the bottle. digital isn't going anywhere, and neither is vinyl. but expanding our market to include not only djs, but fans of the music is nothing but a good thing.

at the end of the day, i want to be able to put good music in the hands of people who love it, and to be able to buy the music i love so that the artists can make the music they love and perhaps even make a bit of money.

my financial situation has gotten considerably bad over the last year, and i have been unable to spend a lot of money on vinyl, but have still been buying music on a regular basis (more regular than when i just bought vinyl, to be honest). if i did not have the digital option, i wouldn't be buying ANY music. which is better for the labels and artists?

[Darkmode]

The people refusing to release digitally are basicly sacred of change I don't see anything wrong with digital releases as they are reaching more people all over world which I see as a good thing also another good thing with digital releases they raise artists profiles. I love vinyl & I would hate it to see it go but there will always be a market out there for vinyl lovers as the old saying goes every each to their own

[Martin Dust]

Oh no, vinyl dead again. Pointless.

[rhythmtech]

Oh no, vinyl dead again. Pointless.

pointless? how so?

surely reaching a larger audience is a good thing?

when i first got into techno "non djs" would actually buy the music because it was music they liked.. these days how, besides the hardcore fans and djs, is going to shell out silly money for 2/3 tracks?

like sheeva said, we need to get fans listening and buying again..

[Martin Dust]

pointless? how so?..

Read it, it's written to get links and a reaction - he knows half of nothing if you ask me.



surely reaching a larger audience is a good thing? ?..

Why? Does it actually exist? Weak argument, if you want a big audience, if that's what it's all about, join a ****ing boy band.




when i first got into techno "non djs" would actually buy the music because it was music they liked.. these days how, besides the hardcore fans and djs, is going to shell out silly money for 2/3 tracks? like sheeva said, we need to get fans listening and buying again..

Stop worrying about things you can NOT influence, make your music and do your thing - **** them all :)

[rhythmtech]

Weak argument, if you want a big audience, if that's what it's all about, join a ****ing boy band.



^^ THAT is a sad way to think. surely you want your music to get to as wide an audience as possible? or are you missing the good old days of techno elitism?

"hey, heard this fukin awesome tune m8... but dont tell anyone.. it'll be our little secret"

bollox to that..

[massplanck]

"hey, heard this fukin awesome tune m8... but dont tell anyone.. it'll be our little secret"
.

:laughing: :clap:

[RDR]

Oh no, vinyl dead again. Pointless.

Cmon martin, you obviously have a position on this, can you be a bit clearer? I know you could put something into this debate that comes from personal experience, something interesting!

please?

;)

[Martin Dust]

^^ THAT is a sad way to think. surely you want your music to get to as wide an audience as possible? or are you missing the good old days of techno elitism?

"hey, heard this fukin awesome tune m8... but dont tell anyone.. it'll be our little secret"

bollox to that..

It's not sad at all and it's nothing to do with elitism or it being secret - please don't project your own trappings of the scene onto me.

Music finds people and you can't be everything to everyone and more to the point 99.9% don't care, so why are you wasting your time and energy evangalising?

If you want to obsess with dragging the general public by the bollocks down the road to Damascus that is Techno - go ahead, talk about it all you want, start a thousand threads about it, go around and around.

Last time I looked this was about music, ideas and being creative, being an artist not a contestant in some kind of popularity contest or seeking public or any kind of approval.

[rhythmtech]

It's not sad at all and it's nothing to do with elitism or it being secret - please don't project your own trappings of the scene onto me.

Music finds people and you can't be everything to everyone and more to the point 99.9% don't care, so why are you wasting your time and energy evangalising?

If you want to obsess with dragging the general public by the bollocks down the road to Damascus that is Techno - go ahead, talk about it all you want, start a thousand threads about it, go around and around.

Last time I looked this was about music, ideas and being creative, being an artist not a contestant in some kind of popularity contest or seeking public or any kind of approval.

who's looking to be popular?

just because i still feel people will like techno, given the means to hear it, doesnt mean im trying so desperatly to be liked (if that was the case i certainly wouldnt be making techno!)

if you wanna be all artistic and "underground" thats your choice.. but dont expect everyone else to have the same low expectations.. some of us actually have a bit of enthusiasm left for getting the music out there and for it to be heard (we've all done the 1 man and his dog gigs.. and i definitly dont wanna go back to doing them)

and if you think 99.9% of people dont care what you're playing them i think its time you searched out some new people.

[Jay Pace]

All fair - but if a label chose to only release its music on betamax tapes and denied everyone lacking a betamax player the opportunity to listen to them you'd be entitled to point out that they were missing a trick...

Music is meant to be heard and appreciated shurely?

[rhythmtech]

Music is meant to be heard and appreciated shurely?

:BigThumbUp: whats the point otherwise?

[Jay Pace]

This quote summed it all up for me:

James Masters who runs the UK label Rekids along with Matt Edwards (Radio Slave), claims that their experiment with vinyl only releases had exactly the opposite effect: "We tried vinyl only with our 008 & 009 releases but the file sharing was so massive we took a decision we could not miss out on making digital formats available too."

Might as well get paid for your efforts.

[Martin Dust]

who's looking to be popular? .

Isn't that what your preaching, you want people to hear it cos you think they will all like it given a chance? It deserves to be heard, well here's the thing, you don't get to decide that.



just because i still feel people will like techno, given the means to hear it, doesnt mean im trying so desperatly to be liked (if that was the case i certainly wouldnt be making techno!)

What are you trying to achieve then?



if you wanna be all artistic and "underground" thats your choice.. but dont expect everyone else to have the same low expectations.. some of us actually have a bit of enthusiasm left for getting the music out there and for it to be heard (we've all done the 1 man and his dog gigs.. and i definitly dont wanna go back to doing them)

Low expectations? Enthusiasm? You surely can't be leveling that BS at me, can you?



and if you think 99.9% of people dont care what you're playing them i think its time you searched out some new people.

Do a quick poll in the street, go and ask "people" - they don't care, they can't even be arsed to ****ing vote let alone give you some feedback on the latest 12". This has sudden shifted from the general public to the audience we/I play to, how did that happen? Stay on target ;)

[Martin Dust]

This quote summed it all up for me:

Might as well get paid for your efforts.

DS93 001 and 002 where a great success, thus proving the Jim's findings don't apply to everything and everyone. There's no one size fits all.

[Jay Pace]

Sure, there's no one rule for all things but could those two releases not have benefitted even more from a mixed format release?

I think making music available in the formats that people want to buy them in just makes good sense. I don't really understand why labels refuse to supply a demand for their music. I can't see who it benefits or protects.

People just resort to filesharing to meet the need, so the artists and labels lose out on the revenue and the exposure. Seems counterproductive to me.

[rhythmtech]

Isn't that what your preaching, you want people to hear it cos you think they will all like it given a chance? It deserves to be heard, well here's the thing, you don't get to decide that. no i dont get to decide but by releasing on as many fomatrs as possible i at least make it more accessible for people to decide for themselves.

if you press 1000 of a vinyl, that means (illegal downloads and copies not included) that legally only 1000 people should have that track. we all know that more people will download it so y not release it digitally yourself and possibly recoup some oof the vinyl expenses so that the next release can be done and the one after that.




What are you trying to achieve then?
wanting your music to be heard is totally differant to wanting to be popular?





Low expectations? Enthusiasm? You surely can't be leveling that BS at me, can you?

i just did.




Do a quick poll in the street, go and ask "people" - they don't care, they can't even be arsed to ****ing vote let alone give you some feedback on the latest 12". This has sudden shifted from the general public to the audience we/I play to, how did that happen? Stay on target ;)

like i said, meet some new people.. i know plenty of people that love techno and always ask what a certain track is and where they can get it. i say you can oreder the vinyl online and they dont want to know. cost, shipping etc.. and most people dont have a turntable anyway.

i dont know where you stand on the digi issue but surely making your music more available to a wider audience is a good thing? or have i suddenly stepped into bizzaro world?

[Martin Dust]

Sure, there's no one rule for all things but could those two releases not have benefitted even more from a mixed format release?

I think making music available in the formats that people want to buy them in just makes good sense. I don't really understand why labels refuse to supply a demand for their music. I can't see who it benefits or protects.

People just resort to filesharing to meet the need, so the artists and labels lose out on the revenue and the exposure. Seems counterproductive to me.

Because they don't want to, it's as simple as that, not everyone wants to conform to a general accepted point of view.

Sometimes it's just the right thing to do, just say NO to mass production and other peoples desires ;)

[rhythmtech]

People just resort to filesharing to meet the need, so the artists and labels lose out on the revenue and the exposure. Seems counterproductive to me.

exactly.. pounding grooves for example - lawrie, for whatever his reasons, doesnt do digi.. unfortunatly you can get the entire pounding grooves back catalogue as 320kps on any p2p site. if you run a search for labels that do digi the results are fewer!

[Martin Dust]

if you press 1000 of a vinyl, that means (illegal downloads and copies not included) that legally only 1000 people should have that track. we all know that more people will download it so y not release it digitally yourself and possibly recoup some oof the vinyl expenses so that the next release can be done and the one after that.

If only it was that simple, if you can't sell a 1000 records you shouldn't be pressing that many, and most techno labels recoup very little off downloads.



i just did.

I don't see how you really can and expect me to take it seriously.






like i said, meet some new people.. i know plenty of people that love techno and always ask what a certain track is and where they can get it. i say you can oreder the vinyl online and they dont want to know. cost, shipping etc.. and most people dont have a turntable anyway.

i dont know where you stand on the digi issue but surely making your music more available to a wider audience is a good thing? or have i suddenly stepped into bizzaro world?

What are you on about? Meet some new people.....This isn't about me.

[Martin Dust]

exactly.. pounding grooves for example - lawrie, for whatever his reasons, doesnt do digi.. unfortunatly you can get the entire pounding grooves back catalogue as 320kps on any p2p site. if you run a search for labels that do digi the results are fewer!

That's his choice tho and you have to accept the fact that some people wont pay for anything, regardless of how available it is.

[Jay Pace]

Because they don't want to, it's as simple as that, not everyone wants to conform to a general accepted point of view.

Sometimes it's just the right thing to do, just say NO to mass production and other peoples desires ;)

To an extent I can understand this....

Maserati could make a cheap sports car for everyone and sell hundereds of thousands, but they choose to sell in tiny numbers to people who are passionate enough about them to pay crazy money. Not the greatest analogy, but some of it holds up.

So sure, labels can opt not to release digital because they aren't interested in their product being bought or played that way. Seems a bit weird to me - but I suppose if the label has a ethos they are committed to, and have artists who support that ethos its their collective decision. And on that basis they aren't missing a trick, they're opting not to take it.

Fair enough if people want to go down that route. Guess you'd have to be doing pretty well financially though to turn down money for your music. I don't know many artists who wish they'd sold less music and made less money...

[Martin Dust]

Fair enough if people want to go down that route. Guess you'd have to be doing pretty well financially though to turn down money for your music. I don't know many artists who wish they'd sold less music and made less money...

Your looking at this completely wrong Jay, not everything and everyone is about £££.

And you say you don't know anyone, well we've just finished our tracks for DS93 005, I'm going to sell less, make less money but produce a hand finished 12", rubber stamped, hand numbered with a screen printed sleeve and when I have it in my hands I'll be happy.

[rhythmtech]

If only it was that simple, if you can't sell a 1000 records you shouldn't be pressing that many, and most techno labels recoup very little off downloads.

by that thinking a lot of the most respected labels should hang up their gloves? and there is money to be made on downloads but limiting yourself to 1 or 2 download sites, like some lables do, isnt going to get you very many sales




I don't see how you really can and expect me to take it seriously.

ok i'll give you that one :wink:







What are you on about? Meet some new people.....This isn't about me.

its about all of us and i see it everywhere.. im just back from poland where they knew nearly every track we played out there.. there was actually people singing along (THE HORROR) during davethedrummers set. these werent people that dont give a **** about techno but the majority would much rather buy a download than a vinyl.

im sure in a few years there'll be some new magical medium and we'll all have to readjust again.. its the way of the industry isnt it?

[Martin Dust]

by that thinking a lot of the most respected labels should hang up their gloves? and there is money to be made on downloads but limiting yourself to 1 or 2 download sites, like some lables do, isnt going to get you very many sales

They probably should anyway :)

Your point about 1 or 2 sites is also incorrect, you'll make most of your money on the big 3 only (itunes/beatport/bleep), you'll make very little on the small players, enough for a pack of fags, probably.




its about all of us and i see it everywhere.. im just back from poland where they knew nearly every track we played out there.. there was actually people singing along (THE HORROR) during davethedrummers set. these werent people that dont give a **** about techno but the majority would much rather buy a download than a vinyl.

Not in Poland they don't, they don't pay for **** all. Real CD's only sell for two euros because of bootlegged out there is so bad and guess where all the illegal sites are hosted.

I think your confusing a few things, they care about having a good time, they certain don't care about buying pucker stuff and supporting the artist that way, they where probably singing "Hey Dave, I got your whole back catalogue for 15 Cents" :)



im sure in a few years there'll be some new magical medium and we'll all have to readjust again.. its the way of the industry isnt it?

I don't think we will, people have had enough of formats in general. The industry is ****ed, so pass me my violin.

[Jay Pace]

Your looking at this completely wrong Jay, not everything and everyone is about £££.

You could release it on betamax wrapped in raw silk if you wanted, or limit your release to 100 hand carved solid gold plates. If thats what does it for you cool, not griping its a passion and unique and individual preference and all that.

Where it gets a little weird - is when people start complaining that people won't buy their music in the format they want them to. They won't buy vinyl/betamax/solid gold discs and instead just get the music in whatever format suits them best, legitimate or not.

People moan about the state of the industry, vinyl sales and the fickle public, but then they deliberately choose to solely cater for an increasingly niche audience. If thats their intention then good luck. If not, they've got not really got a valid reason to moan.

[Martin Dust]

You could release it on betamax wrapped in raw silk if you wanted, or limit your release to 100 hand carved solid gold plates. If thats what does it for you cool, not griping its a passion and unique and individual preference and all that.

Now you're just exaggerating :)



Where it gets a little weird - is when people start complaining that people won't buy their music in the format they want them to. They won't buy vinyl/betamax/solid gold discs and instead just get the music in whatever format suits them best, legitimate or not.

People moan about the state of the industry, vinyl sales and the fickle public, but then they deliberately choose to solely cater for an increasingly niche audience. If thats their intention then good luck. If not, they've got not really got a valid reason to moan.

I aint moaning, I ****ing love it.

[djshiva]

Why? Does it actually exist? Weak argument, if you want a big audience, if that's what it's all about, join a ****ing boy band.


well it's the chicken and the egg argument here tho, isn't it? does the wider audience exist to market the music to? CAN the wider audience exist without wider accessibility of the music? ad infinitum...

it's not about giving into some boy band commercialization notion. it's about understanding how you can keep your music fresh and even (dare i say it) underground, bypassing the common notion of "big labels" and still being able to get your music into the hands of people who love it, using a method that can still stay separate from the "big music business" mentality.

like i said, if it weren't for the digital option, right now my poor ass wouldn't be buying ANY music. and i ask you, from a purely logical (and not emotional) standpoint, which is better? all vinyl, no digital, and less music sold, meaning more money lost and less good music heard...or digital <i>options</i>, music sold, tunes played, people happy, musicians making something for their work, labels surviving to put out more music?

you say it's not about money, but martin, let's face it...if you can't pay rent or put food on the table, music becomes secondary to survival. and i know most musicians have day jobs, and aren't trying to get rich, but the ability to at least make a little scrilla off their work is nice. and frankly, if the labels are not making sales, they won't survive. so sales are, at some point in this debate, very relevant.

i WANT to buy the music. i want the musicians to get paid. i want the labels to survive. now i have more options. sure i want to see vinyl survive, but in all honesty, it's more important to me that the MUSIC survives.

at the end of the day, it's all soundwaves bouncing off of eardrums. how they get transported there is less important to me than the fact that they do.

[RDR]

Here's something else to add fuel to the fire

http://www.kk.org/thetechnium/archives/2008/03/1000_true_fans.php

[Martin Dust]

like i said, if it weren't for the digital option, right now my poor ass wouldn't be buying ANY music. and i ask you, from a purely logical (and not emotional) standpoint, which is better? all vinyl, no digital, and less music sold, meaning more money lost and less good music heard...or digital <i>options</i>, music sold, tunes played, people happy, musicians making something for their work, labels surviving to put out more music?


The only answer I can give it what I've already stated, I do what I believe is right for the project/music, that's what comes first to me, not consumerism.

[Martin Dust]

Here's something else to add fuel to the fire

http://www.kk.org/thetechnium/archives/2008/03/1000_true_fans.php


Alan Oldham said that way back in the day, it's an interesting theory and one that does work.

[RDR]

Alan Oldham said that way back in the day, it's an interesting theory and one that does work.

Its a bit long winded but a really good read (IMO of course... I AM a nerd afterall)

[SlavikSvensk]

i don't really see why there's even a vinyl versus digital debate. why debate? there's no "right" answer, just different advantages and disadvantages.

and for the record, i sincerely doubt techno will ever reach as wide an audience as it did 10 years ago. but that doesn't mean it can't still sell well (on either format) or be relevant.

[TechMouse]

There seem to be a lot of conflicting stances in this thread, and I think the point is getting lost.

I don't think that anybody is saying that label X is stupid not to release digitally because they're missing out on money / fame / kudos / whatever. The argument is that by refusing to release digitally you're essentially flipping off the vast majority majority of people in the world who don't own a set of decks (or even a hi-fi turntable for that matter).

It's a vanishingly small minority of people in the world that even have vinyl listening facilities, much less buy vinyl with any regularity. So are you saying that most people don't deserve to listen to your music? If they really cared they would save up and get some decks?

I dunno, that just seems like an odd attitude to me.

I totally get where Martin is coming from - he makes music for himself; the finished product is an end in of itself; there is no drive for profit - and I totally respect that, but I don't think this is about maximising revenue or compromising ideals. It's about not excluding most people from what you do.

[djshiva]

The only answer I can give it what I've already stated, I do what I believe is right for the project/music, that's what comes first to me, not consumerism.

ok, let me qualify by saying that i am not about consumerism or the idea of music as "product" any more than you are, i think. and please know that all of my questions are more about hearing different sides, and not necessarily about being right about any of it (since i don't think a "right" answer exits).

let me then ask you this: as someone who has been a musician all my life, who eats sleeps shits breathes music, who wants to see good music recognized and valued, who wants to see musicians and artists' work valued, who does NOT want to see the music cheapened or turned into disposable crap (and i do think there is some validity to the idea that the abundance and availability of digital music COULD contribute to its disposability, so that is an argument i actually recognize has some merit)...as a person who loves music more than anything on this planet, how exactly is it BAD that i can afford to access the music easier now?

know too, that i do recognize the value of hunting down that elusive record, the process, the goal, the overwhelming joy of finding what i have been searching for, and the feeling i get from having really had to work to find it. i am from a small town in indiana originally, and i had to drive at least 2 hours or more to go record shopping when i first started buying electronic music. i KNOW all about the search and the dedication of working to find the music. and i know that i really appreciated what i had after that process. that said, it cost me SO much to engage in this process, and even though that process has been made easier by online record shopping, i have been working in the non-profit field for years, and trust me, it pays a pittance. i may not have to go through the exact same process to find music now, but i still hunt every day for good tunes. i am still picky as hell, and i still listen to hundreds of bits of music, and still only buy a handful that i believe are the top of the heap, just like i did when i was record shopping. ;)

so my question is basically this (and i know you have every right to dictate the terms of how your own label works, i am not questioning that):

even though you do have the right as a label owner to dictate the terms of how the music is presented, does a DJ/fan/afficianado not have any room to have a say in how they get to listen to it? because i cannot afford to buy records (or let's say i am not a dj, but just someone who loves techno and wants to listen to it), am i then to just accept the fact that i cannot hear brilliant releases because i cannot afford it/have the wrong player format?

what possible good can come out of a music afficianado being told that they cannot hear good music because of money or format issues? is this really about the idea of consumption? is it about product? is it about music? is there something inherently good or bad with increased accessiblity? i am genuinely asking. i don't necessarily think there is a right or wrong to all of this, or that i have the answers, but i am very interested in intelligent discussion about it. so please don't take this as an attack. it's more me trying to understand different people's viewpoints about it and spur some good discussion. :)

[Martin Dust]

Shiva is the crux of what you're saying is that you believe you have a "right" to access "good" music regardless of what the label/artist decides?

[Martin Dust]

It's a vanishingly small minority of people in the world that even have vinyl listening facilities, much less buy vinyl with any regularity. So are you saying that most people don't deserve to listen to your music? If they really cared they would save up and get some decks?

I dunno, that just seems like an odd attitude to me.


Vinyl sales are up so I don't think that statement stands and it's not me who's saying people don't deserve to hear the music, that's a really odd statement, I don't have duty to do anything other than what I wish. Music has never been a democracy by its very nature and on some projects I do the end product is final, like a painting. You may think it's odd but that's the way we work.

[RDR]

Vinyl sales are up so I don't think that statement stands and it's not me who's saying people don't deserve to hear the music, that's a really odd statement, I don't have duty to do anything other than what I wish. Music has never been a democracy by its very nature and on some projects I do the end product is final, like a painting. You may think it's odd but that's the way we work.

Thats as maybe, but i think techmouse was saying that although vinyl sales are up it really is a drop in the ocean in terms of how many people in the world ACTUALLY can play vinyl.

IMO no-one deserves anything unless they work to get it, unless your talking healthcare we already paid for (but thats another story of course)

[Martin Dust]

Thats as maybe, but i think techmouse was saying that although vinyl sales are up it really is a drop in the ocean in terms of how many people in the world ACTUALLY can play vinyl.


Are you sure about that tho? Are you just guessing?

[RDR]

Are you sure about that tho? Are you just guessing?

consumer sound systems dont include vinyl players any more martin. And thats no guess.

Vinyl sales are up... from WHERE exactly? You'll have to forgive me as i dont have access to that annoyingly expensive book the industry produces each year with all the figures in. And more to the point what FORMAT vinyl are we discussing here? 12" dance tpye vinyl or 7" Promotional vinyl?

I occasionally go and see a music retailler/distro in york and see what goes out of the door.. the majority of the vinyl is 7" rock/pop records. So it is possible that vinyl sales are up, and again i dont know about your experience with your label and sales - i hope its good of course :)

[Martin Dust]

consumer sound systems dont include vinyl players any more martin. And thats no guess.:)

Don't see that matters to be honest, as I mentioned vinyl sales as a whole are up, so it doesn't seem it matter that they no longer included.



Vinyl sales are up... from WHERE exactly? You'll have to forgive me as i dont have access to that annoyingly expensive book the industry produces each year with all the figures in. And more to the point what FORMAT vinyl are we discussing here? 12" dance tpye vinyl or 7" Promotional vinyl?:)

Vinyl sales as a whole are up. I can't speak for other labels or genre but we are doing just as well as we did 3 years ago.




I occasionally go and see a music retailler/distro in york and see what goes out of the door.. the majority of the vinyl is 7" rock/pop records. So it is possible that vinyl sales are up, and again i dont know about your experience with your label and sales - i hope its good of course :)

It's more than possible, it's a fact. Does something have to be wrong to make it right? I don't see why this fact is so hard to accept.

[RDR]

Don't see that matters to be honest, as I mentioned vinyl sales as a whole are up, so it doesn't seem it matter that they no longer included.

It most certainly does, in the light of what we've been discussin here. We're discussing music content delivery to people who want to listen to it.


Vinyl sales as a whole are up.

Thats avoiding my point there bud, as far as im aware with the research ive done that in the round figure includes those 7" i just mentioned.


I can't speak for other labels or genre but we are doing just as well as we did 3 years ago.

Glad to hear it man! That shows all the hard work you put in. :)


It's more than possible, it's a fact. Does something have to be wrong to make it right? I don't see why this fact is so hard to accept.

What do you mean? Sorry i dont understand the context here..

[djshiva]

Shiva is the crux of what you're saying is that you believe you have a "right" to access "good" music regardless of what the label/artist decides?

not at all. it was a question to spur discussion, actually. i don't think access to someone else's musical output necessarily counts as a "right". but i do wonder when the artist became more important than the listener, if that clears up what i was asking.

kinda begs the question: if a tree falls in the forest and there is no one there to hear it, does it make a sound?

is music an exchange of ideas, a meeting somewhere in the middle between the inspiration to create and the joy of experiencing it? is it a sharing of beauty? a communication? or is it a one-sided endeavor, made only for those at its source? is art/music made in a vacuum? should it be?

again, these are all just random questions that popped into my head over the course of this discussion. perhaps i am over-philosophizing, but i personally find them to be very important questions about the nature of art and creation.

[Martin Dust]

not at all. it was a question to spur discussion, actually. i don't think access to someone else's musical output necessarily counts as a "right". but i do wonder when the artist became more important than the listener, if that clears up what i was asking..

For me, I love it when something is final, I guess some people will never understand or accept that. It's really nothing to do with rights, would you ask Mr. Hirst to do a picture on A0 cream paper because that's what you prefer? What do you think he'd say :)

[Martin Dust]

It most certainly does, in the light of what we've been discussin here. We're discussing music content delivery to people who want to listen to it...

It not relevant at all, like I said vinyl sales are up so more people are listening to more vinyl, fact. I can't tell you if dance/techno is up or down, I'm just stating a fact that proves the above to be not a factor - I mean, how much proof do you need? It hasn't and doesn't make a difference.

The last point was a generalisation that people on BOA seem to focus on the wrong thing and seem to have a desire for something to be wrong so they can moan/justify/fight some cause over and over again on endless threads.

My whole point is that Ro's article is a crock of shit, written to cause a fuss, as RA did last year and the year before, meanwhile our sales our up, we've started doing limited vinyl only and we, as artist are happy with what we are doing and are not concerned with mass consumerism or converting anyone to some great cause, it's all about the music and good music all-ways wins out.

[RDR]

It not relevant at all, like I said vinyl sales are up so more people are listening to more vinyl, fact. I can't tell you if dance/techno is up or down, I'm just stating a fact that proves the above to be not a factor - I mean, how much proof do you need? It hasn't and doesn't make a difference.

The last point was a generalisation that people on BOA seem to focus on the wrong thing and seem to have a desire for something to be wrong so they can moan/justify/fight some cause over and over again on endless threads.

My whole point is that Ro's article is a crock of shit, written to cause a fuss, as RA did last year and the year before, meanwhile our sales our up, we've started doing limited vinyl only and we, as artist are happy with what we are doing and are not concerned with mass consumerism or converting anyone to some great cause, it's all about the music and good music all-ways wins out.

Welll.. on the RA front I completely agree with you, thats the nature of journalism these days it seems. Shock and awe...

or bore.

[djshiva]

For me, I love it when something is final, I guess some people will never understand or accept that. It's really nothing to do with rights, would you ask Mr. Hirst to do a picture on A0 cream paper because that's what you prefer? What do you think he'd say :)

no offense, but i think you are interpreting my questions/comments in a much more contentious way than they are meant. i just told you that i don't think it's about rights, and yet you still responded from that interpretation.

i am not attacking your viewpoints, nor do i think you are wrong to want to do things the way you want to do them. i was actually attempting to address things from a little different standpoint and possibly have an interesting discussion about the nature of creating music and the nature of listening to it as well. please go back and reread my last post without thinking that i am attacking you or claiming any inherent rights over your musical output, k ? :)

everyone has made some interesting points, and it just got me thinking along some slightly different lines, and i wanted to throw some points out for discussion. you are obviously very passionate about what you do, and i appreciate that, because i am too. but sometimes our passion keeps us locked into a line of thinking that comes from a defensive standpoint, instead of looking at things objectively and just discussing for the sake of wanting to expand our thinking. that is all i was trying to accomplish with my last post.

to add to your post, i was once told by someone that, even though i have begun to use ableton live to dj and interpret the mixes as i saw fit, if he booked me he wanted me to play vinyl, which is exactly the same point you are making about Mr Hirst and cream paper. I was entirely offended that he would ask me to express my creativity in a way that HE wanted and not how I wanted, so I do get your point.

[Sunil]

as artist are happy with what we are doing and are not concerned with mass consumerism or converting anyone to some great cause, it's all about the music and good music all-ways wins out.

Take the mass consumerism part out for a minute though, that's irrelevant here and we all know it. Of course you set out to convert people in the scene to the 'cause' when you started the label, but that's a few years ago now.. you've overcome that hurdle, so it's not an issue for you anymore. It is for other newer labels though.

I'm with you on most things you've said, but I think you should weigh up your situation against other people's before laying in too much with the fighting spirit ;)

Anyway, I've just started a label myself.. and like some of the people mentioned in the RA article, digital has not been any type of priority for me. This said, a lot of people have asked me and shown a desire to buy releases digitally - so once I fill all those stupid forms out and get IRSC codes etc. I'm going to do it digitally too. The reason is because people have asked, and because I think it's more fair for the artists involved too, to make their music more available. Maybe it won't bring in much money but for this particular project I don't feel I should be too precious about not doing it.

I'm not sure what I think of the RA article; it does pose one or two relevant questions, but y'know, so what? People start record labels because they love vinyl and want to go the whole way - why vinyl lovers and real record labels are being made out to be kind of odd for not having an interest in digital is a bit much sometimes. A record label is a record label, there is only one type really. If that's your dream, then the other options don't really figure. This said, I do understand producers' need to want to have their music heard one way or the other; but I still think the number one aim of most labels or producers, should be to get a record out - it still counts for an awful lot more.

[Martin Dust]

Take the mass consumerism part out for a minute though, that's irrelevant here and we all know it. Of course you set out to convert people in the scene to the 'cause' when you started the label, but that's a few years ago now.. you've overcome that hurdle, so it's not an issue for you anymore. It is for other newer labels though.

I'm with you on most things you've said, but I think you should weigh up your situation against other people's before laying in too much with the fighting spirit ;)

I'm not really attacking anyone, just speaking my mind. I didn't set out to convert anyone to anything or any cause whatsoever - you're either into it or not and I have no influence over what other people decide, project all you want but you'll still be wrong ;)

Consumerism is a state of mind so you can't just say it's not relevant not when people on the threads have been stating clearly they think it's wrong to not do digital and music has a right etc, that's consumerist thinking.

[Martin Dust]

no offense, but i think you are interpreting my questions/comments in a much more contentious way than they are meant. i just told you that i don't think it's about rights, and yet you still responded from that interpretation.

i am not attacking your viewpoints, nor do i think you are wrong to want to do things the way you want to do them. i was actually attempting to address things from a little different standpoint and possibly have an interesting discussion about the nature of creating music and the nature of listening to it as well. please go back and reread my last post without thinking that i am attacking you or claiming any inherent rights over your musical output, k ? :)

everyone has made some interesting points, and it just got me thinking along some slightly different lines, and i wanted to throw some points out for discussion. you are obviously very passionate about what you do, and i appreciate that, because i am too. but sometimes our passion keeps us locked into a line of thinking that comes from a defensive standpoint, instead of looking at things objectively and just discussing for the sake of wanting to expand our thinking. that is all i was trying to accomplish with my last post.

to add to your post, i was once told by someone that, even though i have begun to use ableton live to dj and interpret the mixes as i saw fit, if he booked me he wanted me to play vinyl, which is exactly the same point you are making about Mr Hirst and cream paper. I was entirely offended that he would ask me to express my creativity in a way that HE wanted and not how I wanted, so I do get your point.

Shiva, I just try to write 5 words instead of 23, so it may seem harsh but I'm totally chilled and cool about things, I know you're not attacking me.

I'm happy with what I'm doing and my viewpoint - it wouldn't matter to me if no-one agreed :)

[Sunil]

I'm not really attacking anyone, just speaking my mind. I didn't set out to convert anyone to anything or any cause whatsoever - you're either into it or not and I have no influence over what other people decide, project all you want but you'll still be wrong ;)

Consumerism is a state of mind so you can't just say it's not relevant not when people on the threads have been stating clearly they think it's wrong to not do digital and music has a right etc, that's consumerist thinking.

I didn't say you were attacking anyone; but your situation with your label is entirely different to others. For a start, it would seem that you had a greater investment of money to put into it, and also you have used a lot of already established artists. Don't get me wrong, I think the way Dust Science have approached things has been a fine example of how to run a label right; but to say that you're not interested in converting people over to the vibe of the label is a bit strange for anyone to say. You might not have actively promoted it that way or hassled people about it, but I'm sure you would be happy to think that new people got into this sort of music via your label, or that people in general took an interest in your label full stop, no?

[Martin Dust]

but to say that you're not interested in converting people over to the vibe of the label is a bit strange for anyone to say. You might not have actively promoted it that way or hassled people about it, but I'm sure you would be happy to think that new people got into this sort of music via your label, or that people in general took an interest in your label full stop, no?

I can't be worrying if people get "it" or not Sunil, I go with heart and do what I do, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't but either way I know I did it for the right reasons (for me) - it may not make any sense to everyone else but hey...

[TechMouse]

Vinyl sales are up so I don't think that statement stands
We'll have to agree to disagree then.

Non-DJs who buy vinyl purely for home listening is the most minuscule of minorities within a scene populated by minorities.


Music has never been a democracy by its very nature and on some projects I do the end product is final, like a painting. You may think it's odd but that's the way we work.
Perhaps I'm missing something then, because it looks like most of the Dust Science catalogue is available on Juno Download.

[RDR]

We'll have to agree to disagree then.

Non-DJs who buy vinyl purely for home listening is the most minuscule of minorities within a scene populated by minorities.


Perhaps I'm missing something then, because it looks like most of the Dust Science catalogue is available on Juno Download.

Consider it bought!

[TechMouse]

I can't speak for other labels or genre but we are doing just as well as we did 3 years ago.
In fairness, Martin, I think that's more a reflection of the variety and quality of the stuff you put out than the health of the industry in general.

[Martin Dust]

We'll have to agree to disagree then.

Non-DJs who buy vinyl purely for home listening is the most minuscule of minorities within a scene populated by minorities.

Disagree with facts all you want :) Plus we have loads of people on our list who aren't DJ's that buy vinyl, do we have to go around and around?



Perhaps I'm missing something then, because it looks like most of the Dust Science catalogue is available on Juno Download.

DS93 isn't, Dustdubz isn't - like I said, whatever we feel is right for the project.

[Martin Dust]

In fairness, Martin, I think that's more a reflection of the variety and quality of the stuff you put out than the health of the industry in general.

Maybe but "variety' is a lot harder as some people expect a label to be "just" on thing or sound. I've never really stopped to think about it.

[Sunil]

I can't be worrying if people get "it" or not Sunil, I go with heart and do what I do, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't but either way I know I did it for the right reasons (for me) - it may not make any sense to everyone else but hey...

That's not what I said. Obviously you're no different to many other labels, in that you go with your heart. I'm not saying that you should be worried if people get it or not, but you give the impression as if you don't care if the label attracts new followers or not.

[Martin Dust]

you give the impression as if you don't care if the label attracts new followers or not.

I know I can't force anything, so why worry about it?

[Sunil]

I know I can't force anything, so why worry about it?

That's easy to say many releases down the road, when you're a well-established label. I'm not saying you have to force anything by the way.
Ok, so going by your disinterest in what people will think, does that mean you don't promote anything either, or don't care what a magazine might write about a release etc?

[Martin Dust]

That's easy to say many releases down the road, when you're a well-established label. I'm not saying you have to force anything by the way.


Why is it easy to say? I've always felt like I do, there's no big switch gone on and I haven't changed anything I've done from the start.



Ok, so going by your disinterest in what people will think, does that mean you don't promote anything either, or don't care what a magazine might write about a release etc?

I promote to a level I'm happy with, that hasn't changed at all. I can't change what people write about me or any of the release, great if they get it, hey-ho if they don't.

[Sunil]

Why is it easy to say? I've always felt like I do, there's no big switch gone on and I haven't changed anything I've done from the start.

Because you have a better idea of where you stand now.
You had to approach selling records with a certain amount of uncertainty too I'm sure - just like any other label that has ever existed. I'm pretty sure you took a lot of interest in what people thought of the first releases.


great if they get it

Ok, good to have established that then :)

[Martin Dust]

I think you might be better off talking to yourself or perhaps poking a dead dog with a stick for nine hours - done.

[Sunil]

I think you might be better off talking to yourself or perhaps poking a dead dog with a stick for nine hours - done.

Was that a joke?

Anyway, yeah. After meeting you briefly at Bloc and now watching you and your "I'm underground" God complex in action here, I think I've given you a fair chance.
At least you aren't someone I particularly admire, otherwise I'd be disappointed.

[Martin Dust]

No joke, it just seems to be going around and around Sunil so there's not much point, I not sure how much more I can labour the point really.

[massplanck]

Sunil maybe you should email Phil Hartnoll and ask him if he wants to resurrect Orbital with you and then come on here and tell us all that you dont care what people think about you or your records.

[Sunil]

No joke, it just seems to be going around and around Sunil so there's not much point, I not sure how much more I can labour the point really.

No problem with that, you've been slogging it out for a while before I came along. Shame you had to be ignorant about it though; it's a small community and all that.

[Martin Dust]

Long day Sunil, don't take it personally, it was meant in kind of a "oh **** it way"

[Sunil]

edit:

Right, **** this. I'm not on here to have rows.
Still though, BOA probably needs a few more to keep it going :)

[massplanck]

only joking Martin. ;)

[Martin Dust]

I know, I guess I should have stuck to one post, all the picking over shit gets on my wick.

[Martin Dust]

edit:

Right, **** this. I'm not on here to have rows.
Still though, BOA probably needs a few more to keep it going :)

I'm OK with the banter Sunil, I don't mind it at all.

[djshiva]

an in-depth explanation of why digital is better than vinyl. (http://youtube.com/watch?v=Yu_moia-oVI)

read the additional explanation here. (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=rickroll)

[RDR]

an in-depth explanation of why digital is better than vinyl. (http://youtube.com/watch?v=Yu_moia-oVI)

read the additional explanation here. (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=rickroll)

Oh hahaha!

you didnt catch me!

[djshiva]

Oh hahaha!

you didnt catch me!

*looks innocent*