tutorial video sending wrong message

[jon connor]

was wondering how you guys feal about this especially the more experienced producers in here for the sake of up and coming talent.

i buy computer music mag and have done since it started its great for tutorials and general knowlage of new software etc, but however i do have a problem with an issue which has rennie pilgrim drum + bass legend sending a mixed and mabey wrong message to new guys learning the art of production, there is a part in the video where he talks about liking other peoples drum patterns etc and stealing them ? he even goes as far as to show you how to do this and congile together in abelton ?

now tell me if im wrong but when i did 2 years in collage studying a deploma in sound engineering i dont remember my tutor telling me to do this.

i would think it would be better encouraging new artists to be individual and origanal i thought this was a little bit dogy and careless of rennie, because the rest is actually a very good tutorial.

are we now in an era where nobody cares anymore and wot about the poor guys this stuff has been stolen off for an example in the case of deadmaoussy dude in techno descussion to abuse

is this right or wrong. ?

[rhythmtech]

learn the rules. then break the rules.

our entire genre is only in existance because of sampling. just be creative in how you do it.

[Honeey]

I don't agree with encouragement to steal and use other peoples drum patterns etc in a tutorial. I agree with encouraging people to be original. They can do whatever they want but don't teach them bad habits lol

[rhythmtech]

I don't agree with encouragement to steal and use other peoples drum patterns etc in a tutorial. I agree with encouraging people to be original. They can do whatever they want but don't teach them bad habits lol

i think you'll find the word is sampling not stealing :wink:

simple way to look at it:

1. lift a loop and use it as it originally was = GAY
2. lift a loop, chop it up, rearrange it, make it sound like nothing you've heard before = COOLNESS.

[Smear]

simple way to look at it:

1. lift a loop and use it as it originally was = GAY
2. lift a loop, chop it up, rearrange it, make it sound like nothing you've heard before = COOLNESS.

Yeah but what one person would class as 1, someone else could class as 2. Even Vanilla Ice argued that adding one note to the bassline of Under Pressure made it something original.

Also, drum&bass and its predecessors may have been based on sampling other music, but techno wasn't. That's just a myth perpetuated by people who like to steal loops from other people's music :p.

[rhythmtech]

Yeah but what one person would class as 1, someone else could class as 2. Even Vanilla Ice argued that adding one note to the bassline of Under Pressure made it something original.


well adding 1 note to a bassline is completly differant to chopping an audio file into slices, sticking them in a sampler and using the single slices as drum hits.

and to be honest about it ive lifted loops myself in the past. especially when i was starting and wasnt to confident about my own stuff. but like i said its not what you do its the way that you do it.



Also, drum&bass and its predecessors may have been based on sampling other music, but techno wasn't.


well techno has been so bastardised thru the years that it doesnt really make a differance anymore.

look, this topic has been done to death here and no-one will ever agree so just do what you do and if people like it then great.

[Honeey]

i think you'll find the word is sampling not stealing :wink:

simple way to look at it:

1. lift a loop and use it as it originally was = GAY
2. lift a loop, chop it up, rearrange it, make it sound like nothing you've heard before = COOLNESS.

lol good point :)

[fils_here]

as PWEI once said steal it, loop it , sample it & **** it!

[rhythmtech]

fukin loved the poppies!! :biggrin:

[fils_here]

yeh baz! top band, should've said tho steal it, sample it, loop it, **** it & eat it!! well most or every one of their tracks had samples n shit in from somewhere hehe, gimme big mac & fries to go gimme big mac & fries to go!!

[TechMouse]

I don't agree with encouragement to steal and use other peoples drum patterns etc in a tutorial.
I dunno... countless quality tunes have been built around the rhythm of a classic breakbeat or whatever.

[RDR]

How about stealing an arrangement?

To my knowledge there is only ONE arrangement that has been at the forefront of defending its own copyright.. and thats John Cage's 4' 33''.. its as simple as this, how do you copyright an arrangement of nothing... and thats because to play nothing, you cannot change a thing, becuase nothing is there to change... its a real mind bender!!!!! and been succesfully defended in the court twice i seem to remember.

drum patterns are a difficult one... breaks and standard drum patterns have been around for years - they are printed without refernce to an originator (AFAIK) and are available for robbing.

recordings of drum patterns are a different thing altogether. The copyright covers the song writer (rarely a drummer by origin) the performance (the drummer themselves) and recording copyright (the person/studio where the performance was recorded and possibly mastered)

And all this has to considered on top of the phrase "Prior Art" which covers such things as chords, scales, basic chord progressions etc.

Sampling, breaking, effecting and possibly re-pitching are perfectly acceptable ways of taking what is effectivly a sound and re-enginnering it.

Sampling, reversing and leaving as is becomes not just un-original but also makes a producer into a dreadful shit.

:lol:

[Honeey]

I dunno... countless quality tunes have been built around the rhythm of a classic breakbeat or whatever.

I don't disagree with sampling in music it wouldn't be the same without it but I think learning how to be creative from "scratch" first just makes the person develop a more creative mindset with whatever they do in the future. :)

[rhythmtech]

I don't disagree with sampling in music it wouldn't be the same without it but I think learning how to be creative from "scratch" first just makes the person develop a more creative mindset with whatever they do in the future. :)

you're 1005 right. you need to learn the rules before you can break them.

[Jay Pace]

People get too het up about copying and the need to be uber original.

Striving to be original is all well and good, but some of the best and most original stuff of the last decade (jungle, hardcore, hip hop) has been made by people borrowing heavily from other places and mashing it all together, and you end up with something amazing.

People starting out would be better off trying to get to grips with whats already out there, then try and pull new genres out their arses. Take a sample from here, whack a riff from there and maybe put something of your own on top of it etc. Worked for plenty of the greats. Making everything from scratch is pretty punishing for beginners.

[RDR]

Live bands have been doing covers for YEARS and no-one says shit about that...

[tonyc2002]

Live bands have been doing covers for YEARS and no-one says shit about that...

That's a very valid point.

[jon connor]

ok guys nice points there i getting sum good response , but however i was asking if it is right to do this on tutorial dvd`s on a national magazine which i and many others have to pay a good 5 or 6 quid for ?

cant help feeling a little bit let down if somone is going to steal / sample , wotever from others let them be descrete about it and do it on there own terms , dont blatently go BLA BLA BLA BLA yea do this do that bobs your uncle hears ya freshly stolen track and this is how to do it and diguise it on a national magazine tutorial dvd coz you no wot that`s jus a big fat bollock.

[loopdon]

I think it's OK. I for one generally love tutorials.
As baz pointed out it's about what you have to put 'on top' or how YOU can make something totally fresh of the samplage. Copying patterns (not much different than using midi patterns etc.) and cutting kicks etc. is ok IF you can add something to what you borrowed.

[TechMouse]

ok guys nice points there i getting sum good response , but however i was asking if it is right to do this on tutorial dvd`s on a national magazine which i and many others have to pay a good 5 or 6 quid for ?
The biggest most important lesson for most people here is that you're never going to get anywhere if you don't look for inspiration and ideas outside of the likes of Future / Computer Music.

[tocsin]

Can it be confirmed that the tutorial taught sampling? Because, aside from the fact that I have no issue with sampling (and find it almost always hypocritical when brought up in techno), if he was teaching someone how to recreate a drum pattern that they like from scratch, that is entirely different and quite useful. All of us who play an instrument likely learned by originally learning other peoples' songs, no?

[Microdot]

All and any methods of making good music are worth teaching/learning.
There is absolutely no exception to this rule.

[davethedrummer]

ok guys nice points there i getting sum good response , but however i was asking if it is right to do this on tutorial dvd`s on a national magazine which i and many others have to pay a good 5 or 6 quid for ?

cant help feeling a little bit let down if somone is going to steal / sample , wotever from others let them be descrete about it and do it on there own terms , dont blatently go BLA BLA BLA BLA yea do this do that bobs your uncle hears ya freshly stolen track and this is how to do it and diguise it on a national magazine tutorial dvd coz you no wot that`s jus a big fat bollock.

sounds to me like rennie is just being honest
electronic music wouldn't be where it is today without the sampler
espesh drum and bass
it's all about lifting breaks from records
nothing new there really.

now lifting a vocal or something like that
well...maybe thats a bit different
the sampling laws are still unclear due to the nature of sampling itself
but it has to stop somewhere otherwise the police would be round all our houses
and we'd all be nicked for that break beat we sampled ten years ago of some obscure record.
or even just your kick drum collection
you've got a 909 kick in your collection right, hasn't everybody?
you're nicked me old china!
and the prisons would be full of bleary eyed djs' wondering what the f@ck just happened.

[jon connor]

I think it's OK. I for one generally love tutorials.
As baz pointed out it's about what you have to put 'on top' or how YOU can make something totally fresh of the samplage. Copying patterns (not much different than using midi patterns etc.) and cutting kicks etc. is ok IF you can add something to what you borrowed.


yea i agree but how many will edit and how many will just blantantly cant be be bothered ?

[jon connor]

sounds to me like rennie is just being honest
electronic music wouldn't be where it is today without the sampler
espesh drum and bass
it's all about lifting breaks from records
nothing new there really.

now lifting a vocal or something like that
well...maybe thats a bit different
the sampling laws are still unclear due to the nature of sampling itself
but it has to stop somewhere otherwise the police would be round all our houses
and we'd all be nicked for that break beat we sampled ten years ago of some obscure record.
or even just your kick drum collection
you've got a 909 kick in your collection right, hasn't everybody?
you're nicked me old china!
and the prisons would be full of bleary eyed djs' wondering what the f@ck just happened.


hahahaha ok henry you hit the nail on the head that was probably the answer ive bin waiting for cheers everyone for the response.

[tocsin]

now lifting a vocal or something like that
well...maybe thats a bit different
the sampling laws are still unclear due to the nature of sampling itself
but it has to stop somewhere otherwise the police would be round all our houses
and we'd all be nicked for that break beat we sampled ten years ago of some obscure record.


Actually, the copyright laws are very clear on this. If you use someone else's recording in your track, you engaged in criminal copyright infringment unless you have been given express permission to use the recording by its owner, or if the recording is in the public domain. Only reason there aren't more legal letters and threats sent our direction is we aren't on the radar most of the time.

[The_Laughing_Man]

Actually the law isn`t too clear.

US is possibly the worst and downright most against creativity and art (surprise surprise), but european law isn`t quite so clear due to some interesting cases.
My best mate is an expert on international copyright law, and wrote a recent paper on Fair Use and copyright.
Unfortunatley one of the most respected people in copyright law (he`s a bit of a guru in this area)in terms of fair use recently quit pursuing this direction and in a statement on his website cited the draconian and disgusting US precedent in ths aweful legal area.
I linked to a subject all about this here ages ago.


I think I l

[The Overfiend]

get dj premier wit it

[clubsynthetic]

If it's technique that the tutorial is teaching you then i don't see why not... as long at it is not the be all and end all

[tocsin]

Actually the law isn`t too clear.

US is possibly the worst and downright most against creativity and art (surprise surprise), but european law isn`t quite so clear due to some interesting cases.


Were "worse" in that we require less protection than the rest of Europe signed on to with the Berne Convention and other treaties.



My best mate is an expert on international copyright law, and wrote a recent paper on Fair Use and copyright.
Unfortunatley one of the most respected people in copyright law (he`s a bit of a guru in this area)in terms of fair use recently quit pursuing this direction and in a statement on his website cited the draconian and disgusting US precedent in ths aweful legal area.
I linked to a subject all about this here ages ago.


Thing is, though, "fair use" simply does not apply to sampling copyrighted recorded works in music. There's no debate about that internationally. Europe has been more protective of the authors' rights to their own works than the USA was for a long time. I've yet to see a decision come out of a European court that claims the use of a protected and owned original recording in another song does not constitute infringement if permission was not obtained.

[Jay Pace]

I read an article on Mylo's first album.

I think his whole album got cleared because although he used samples each song was demonstrably different to the original, so it was deemed to be a new piece of music.

Don't know the legal ins-and-outs of it, and given how big the album was I'm guessing it got pretty carefully scrutinized but I remember thinking at the time that it sounded a pretty sensible way to do things. Rip off a sample in entirety and you have to pay for borrowing someone elses work. Mangle a sample and it becomes something new, providing its sufficiently mangled.

[davethedrummer]

I read an article on Mylo's first album.

I think his whole album got cleared because although he used samples each song was demonstrably different to the original, so it was deemed to be a new piece of music.

Don't know the legal ins-and-outs of it, and given how big the album was I'm guessing it got pretty carefully scrutinized but I remember thinking at the time that it sounded a pretty sensible way to do things. Rip off a sample in entirety and you
have to pay for borrowing someone elses work. Mangle a sample and it becomes something new, providing its sufficiently mangled.

the basic law itself is clear " if you steal someones stuff you will be in trouble"
pretty clear stuff really , even the bible got that bit right.

thing is : when does a sample stop being a sample and become an/part of an original?

you get these musical copyright experts, musicologists, and they study the piece
electronically , and musically, working out rhythm , key , eq , waveform, etc etc ..

and most importantly deciding whether the sample itself is playing a key part in the track , and whether there is anything to be gained financially by the artist by using it in this way that should be apportioned to the original sampled artist
etc etc..
his decision is the only thing that will settle these issues in a court of law
if it gets to this point.
and so far these guys have been responsible for having thousands of dance music labels prosecuted, and helping james browns estate, among many others.

so musical law is also unclear, in the sense that if your sample is deemed to be sufficiently covered/disguised and of no real financial value to you, then you're ok.

[The_Laughing_Man]

I read an article on Mylo's first album.

I think his whole album got cleared because although he used samples each song was demonstrably different to the original, so it was deemed to be a new piece of music.

Don't know the legal ins-and-outs of it, and given how big the album was I'm guessing it got pretty carefully scrutinized but I remember thinking at the time that it sounded a pretty sensible way to do things. Rip off a sample in entirety and you have to pay for borrowing someone elses work. Mangle a sample and it becomes something new, providing its sufficiently mangled.

Exactly, and there is a movement within legal circles trying to make this a more reasonable system. Battling against the RIAA etc and the US`s increasingly unreasonable legal precident isn`t easy, but there have been some good example cases in europe that are a little encouraging.

If you are blatant then you are doomed, but I think creative use of material is possible without being firect theft.

Otherwise where will this all ultimately lead?
Idea theft is a dangerouse road to head down.
Will the Jimi Hendrix estate claim copyright on some of the sounds that hendrix pioneered that became effects?
Will the inventor of the piano claim all rights to the sound of the piano?



And before you pedantic gimps jump on that comment, yes I know that the inventor of the piano can`t even be traced, isn`t alive, and a piano isn`t a "recorded" piece of music.

[DannyBlack]

you've nicked me old china!



Steady on H, that's quite the accusation.



On a sampling note, yeah I like to sample/steal/borrow loops, vocals etc... It's out there, it's fair game really.

[DannyBlack]

Interesting thought, can they arrest you for whistiling a tune? I mean, it isn't your creation....

[System 47]

given the amount of samplin n techno (and there is buckloads of it) i wouldnt worry about what a breaks producer has to say..

who cares.. sample your ass off..


take hip hop... the whole buzz is built on samplin (NWA - Straight Outta Compton for details) yet Eminem feels the need to threaten ppl over use of his 'nobody listens to techno' hook.. ironic, cheeky or jus plain dumb ?


who gives a f**k tbh.. sample your balls off mateys :)

[System 47]

imo

[DannyBlack]

given the amount of samplin n techno (and there is buckloads of it) i wouldnt worry about what a breaks producer has to say..

who cares.. sample your ass off..


take hip hop... the whole buzz is built on samplin (NWA - Straight Outta Compton for details) yet Eminem feels the need to threaten ppl over use of his 'nobody listens to techno' hook.. ironic, cheeky or jus plain dumb ?


who gives a f**k tbh.. sample your balls off mateys :)



+1

Bollocks to them.

[davethedrummer]

Interesting thought, can they arrest you for whistiling a tune? I mean, it isn't your creation....

well you should definitely be paying the PRS thats for sure !

[DannyBlack]

Everytime I whistle "Summer holiday" by Cliff I watch my back. I can feel him lurking in the shadows just waiting... waiting for royalties.

[The_Laughing_Man]

Tecnically, you can`t sing happy birthday at a birthday party any more.
But this is something to do with licensing

[DannyBlack]

The same as radio being broadcast in shops. My last birthday party was raided, down to someone doing the marilyn monroe impression.

[Jay Pace]

God help all those kareoke fans.

Will sony be prosecuted for criminal conspiracy for releasing Singstar on the Playstation?

"Flagrantly encouraging public flouting of copywrite and illegal reproduction laws"

Maybe its all a trap.... maybe Sony sell people Singstar, then wait patiently for the opportunity to strike...

[The_Laughing_Man]

Kareoke bars, or at least the proper ones, pay their licenses, so that`s all ok.