The Art of Live PA.

[DannyBlack]

We've all talked about DJing whether it be through Ableton or Turntables but one of the most untalked about aspects of a Techno night is the Live PA- or maybe I just don't listen haha.

I have seen 1 in all the times I have been to nights. Speedy J and Chris Leibing. It was... welll... underwhelming. That's another rant!

So who of you play Live PA's? Can you educate me? What is involved, what's the process?

How do you prepare for something like that? Do you use sequencers on the night or is it just loops and sounds put together?

[basslinejunkie]

i think a live pa should be an artist playing and performing their own music, not somebody elses. how they do that is up to them. weather it be albeton etc etc.

[Numeric]

i think a live pa should be an artist playing and performing their own music, not somebody elses. how they do that is up to them. weather it be albeton etc etc.

i agree with this, although it's not essential for a quality pa

[basslinejunkie]

it does my head in though when its billed as a live pa and they are just playing somebody elses tunes on albeton!!

Live yes, live pa nooooooooooooo

[The_Laughing_Man]

I have ojnly been performing live pa`s for the last 5-6 years
gave up Djing.

Live PA is much much more fun

[Numeric]

it does my head in though when its billed as a live pa and they are just playing somebody elses tunes on albeton!!

Live yes, live pa nooooooooooooo

my fave live sets have been when the artist has used their own material

[acidsaturation]

I've always been very resistant to using a laptop for a live pa, purely because I have seen soooo many 'live' pas which are NOT live pas - in the extreme situations basically just lining up tracks in place and sticking a few effects over.

Having said that, I have all but stopped playing at the moment, partly 'cos of how busy I am working and doing an MA, but also lugging all my gear (I took a pretty hefty proportion of my equipment) about and needing to find someone with a van etc etc.

Some point I will try and put some in the laptop I reckon, and take some synths out.

But everything was sequenced, I think the only loops were a few guitar samples, and a couple from old tune that I made on a PC and only had audio recordings of.

Basically, I have 3 electribes running their own loops, and the RM1x running a few more tracks on other synths and mix about between them all, bringing bits in and out.

Other main problem is while more and more people are using so much more processing on laptops it is harder and harder to match the sound quality with this kind of set up...

[The_Laughing_Man]

I've always been very resistant to using a laptop for a live pa, purely because I have seen soooo many 'live' pas which are NOT live pas - in the extreme situations basically just lining up tracks in place and sticking a few effects over.

Having said that, I have all but stopped playing at the moment, partly 'cos of how busy I am working and doing an MA, but also lugging all my gear (I took a pretty hefty proportion of my equipment) about and needing to find someone with a van etc etc.

Some point I will try and put some in the laptop I reckon, and take some synths out.

But everything was sequenced, I think the only loops were a few guitar samples, and a couple from old tune that I made on a PC and only had audio recordings of.

Basically, I have 3 electribes running their own loops, and the RM1x running a few more tracks on other synths and mix about between them all, bringing bits in and out.

Other main problem is while more and more people are using so much more processing on laptops it is harder and harder to match the sound quality with this kind of set up...

a sequence is just a loop of midi notes, there is no difference really.
I use both loops of my own audio and midi triggered vsti synths.
Makes no odds.
I love ableton as it is so easy for me to manage what I am doing.
Most hardware PA`s these days sound very dated and slow to react to the crowd being presequenced sets that can`t be deviated from very quickly or easily.
With ableton I can play my live pa with the same reaction speed of a DJ, and if people aren`t digging the tune I am playing I can very quickly move on to another tune to pick up the pace.
It`s so easy to edit midi on the fly, copy, merge it, change it, re-assign controllers, change the groove of an audio loop etc
Plus as you mentioned I can apply processing to keep my sound more standardised regardless of what system I play on.

[acidsaturation]

I can react quite well and change things on the fly, as it's all 4, 8, or 16 bar loops mixed together, not unlike many people do in Ableton. I've resisted pre-sequencing any more than that, even though it would probable make things far easier... That said, as lot of the time I stick to a vague plan, 'cos it works and there is a structure to it.

But the sound is a problem. I just love my boxes too much, if I could afford to I would painstakingly get and set up enough hardware to put compression/eq everywhere I needed it, different effects on different tracks and so on.

I think it works not to bad as I am still and acid techno stick in the mud though! lol

[acidsaturation]

a sequence is just a loop of midi notes, there is no difference really.
I use both loops of my own audio and midi triggered vsti synths.
{...}
It`s so easy to edit midi on the fly, copy, merge it, change it, re-assign controllers, change the groove of an audio loop etc


Though that confuses me a bit - you've made the difference clear in the latter part - midi can be altered a lot more on the fly than audio.

[Technologic]

Though that confuses me a bit - you've made the difference clear in the latter part - midi can be altered a lot more on the fly than audio.


Indeed, although recording a midi-file to audio, looping it and then creating another track part with the same hardware is useful for layering music and would be great to see live. Indeed audio has less integration and engineering potential but it can be used to your advantage.

[The_Laughing_Man]

Though that confuses me a bit - you've made the difference clear in the latter part - midi can be altered a lot more on the fly than audio.

With ableton both can be altered very easily and quickly on the fly
With XOXOX hardware changing midi on all but single note drum track type stuff stuff is a problem due to the limitation of the interfaces.

[SlavikSvensk]

to me, a live PA must have a lot of spontaneity to be exciting. i want to see performers moving around, twisting knobs, throwing in loops on the fly, recombining elements into new tracks, etc.

some don't bother. even before laptop PAs became commonplace, some artists would simply create their live PAs before performing, and limit performance to some EQ tweaking. to me, this is worthless gobsh*te.

the problem with laptop PAs isn't any inherent quality of laptops or software vs. hardware, but rather that it makes it even easier to do this. or maybe the better way to say it is that more people act lazy behind a laptop.

that said, there's no reason they have to. this is a human failing, not a technological failing. a laptop-based PA can be every bit as exciting and spontaneous as a hardware PA, and given the unlimited potential of ableton, can be really, really exciting and spontaneous.

[The_Laughing_Man]

to me, a live PA must have a lot of spontaneity to be exciting. i want to see performers moving around, twisting knobs, throwing in loops on the fly, recombining elements into new tracks, etc.

some don't bother. even before laptop PAs became commonplace, some artists would simply create their live PAs before performing, and limit performance to some EQ tweaking. to me, this is worthless gobsh*te.

the problem with laptop PAs isn't any inherent quality of laptops or software vs. hardware, but rather that it makes it even easier to do this. or maybe the better way to say it is that more people act lazy behind a laptop.

that said, there's no reason they have to. this is a human failing, not a technological failing. a laptop-based PA can be every bit as exciting and spontaneous as a hardware PA, and given the unlimited potential of ableton, can be really, really exciting and spontaneous.

I would say nothing offers the same freedom and ability that ableton does.
I¬ve been playing electronic music live (before live pa`s I was in industrial bands) for 15 or so years, never had I more control over what I do, and with such simplicity.
Hardware PA`s are mostly, though not always, fairly linear predictable affairs, though some do push the envelope and really work the gear well, it`s just so hard to implement with hardware. And with money for acts, flight luggage costs etc, room in the club, hardware is just unworkable.

Yes there are a lot of lazy PA`s that are just people pressing play and then dancing about, but this isn`t just a new phenomena limited to laptops.
Hardware PA`s have been the same or worse, with hidden DAT and CD players being used in hardware "PA`s" for years.
I think there is a higher percentage of live pa`s that are actually doing something than their is a percentage of DJ`s who are doing anything beyond the most basic mixing.

I`m currently developing a syllabus for my live PA classes that I will be teaching and it`s really making me notice just how much the potential for what you can do live has changed over the last 10 years.

[SlavikSvensk]

i'd agree with that. the problem is that it also makes it easy for people to be lazy. so if someone has lazy-man tendencies, they will likely come out in their laptop PA.

some people mistake this as the technology requiring people to be lazy. but i don't think there's any reason a laptop PA has to be lazy at all. in fact, it could potentially be much more exciting than a hardware PA because you can do so much more with ableton. was looking at that new akai controller and you can basically do everything you could with an MPC, in exactly the same way, if you like. sort of explodes the idea that the gear makes the PA.

[DannyBlack]

I saw speedy j and liebing do a live set in waterford a few years back. It was by far the shittest thing i ever witnessed. they were clearly taking the piss- using the same (F1 car whizzing past) sample over every track- I mean the same loop placed over tracks. it was mind numbing. I actually walked out early.

[The_Laughing_Man]

i'd agree with that. the problem is that it also makes it easy for people to be lazy. so if someone has lazy-man tendencies, they will likely come out in their laptop PA.

some people mistake this as the technology requiring people to be lazy. but i don't think there's any reason a laptop PA has to be lazy at all. in fact, it could potentially be much more exciting than a hardware PA because you can do so much more with ableton. was looking at that new akai controller and you can basically do everything you could with an MPC, in exactly the same way, if you like. sort of explodes the idea that the gear makes the PA.

The akai apc40 is waaaaay beyond an mpc in terms of what you can do, and not really very similar at all. The Novation Launchpad, which is the other ableton dedicated processor, has more functionality that has similarities to the old mpc stuff.
The akai is more about taking what you see on an ableton screen and making it physical.
It really is a step forwards.
Personally the only part of it that I want is the clip launch grid as I have a controller with nicer faders so I`ll be getting the launchpad to integrate into my pa`s.

[SlavikSvensk]

my point was not that it is as good as an mpc, but that you could use it as an mpc, if you chose to. that is, if you think hardware makes the PA, then there you go. if you don't, then there you go in another direction.

[BloodStar]

currently in progress of sorting the materials on my own live pa, after buying new laptop few weeks ago. awful work to sort all the tracks, split them into sections, export and build the whole live pa from blank canvas. chalenging job this is. i hope it will not take me months and i will record first tape before end of year.

live pa is the future of techno and music in general, tho.

[The_Laughing_Man]

my point was not that it is as good as an mpc, but that you could use it as an mpc, if you chose to. that is, if you think hardware makes the PA, then there you go. if you don't, then there you go in another direction.

It`s better than an mpc.
ever used an mpc?
Rubbish sequencing. Tiny interface, very few features of actual manipulation.
It was a loop player essentially.
1 fader, 2 knobs.

You just can`t compare them in both the internal sequencing system and the external control method.

[The_Laughing_Man]

currently in progress of sorting the materials on my own live pa, after buying new laptop few weeks ago. awful work to sort all the tracks, split them into sections, export and build the whole live pa from blank canvas. chalenging job this is. i hope it will not take me months and i will record first tape before end of year.

live pa is the future of techno and music in general, tho.

Making a live pa is the most horrible tedious thing in the world.
Playing it, on the other hand.........

When are you going to send me music anyway me old china?

[SlavikSvensk]

It`s better than an mpc.
ever used an mpc?
Rubbish sequencing. Tiny interface, very few features of actual manipulation.
It was a loop player essentially.
1 fader, 2 knobs.

You just can`t compare them in both the internal sequencing system and the external control method.

yeah had an mpc for 6 years. was fun but yes, tedious.

think you're still missing my point, though. not a question of being as good as an mpc, but that you could exactly emulate an mpc-based live PA if you wanted to. you wouldn't have to, by any means. but you could, if you were one of those "hardware only" types. so it's not a case of "different means," which is what i've always thought was the point of the "hardware not software" argument.

from that, you can extrapolate that "if you can do exactly what you did with hardware, but also this other stuff, then what's the advantage of hardware supposed to be again?"

[The_Laughing_Man]

I`m not sure how you could emulate an mpc PA with an apc 40.
It is a midi interface and contains no internal storage capability, it has to be used with a laptop or pc.
It works in a completely different way to the mpc.
You might be able to reprogram it all within Max for live to work like an mpc but I have no idea why anyone would do that.
Or I suppose you could set your clips to trigger once and set them up in a grid and do it that way but it wouldn`t replicate an mpc


A laptop is hardware. People seem to confuse this point, and I never understand why people make a difference.

The APC 40 is just a midi interface that happens to replicate the GUI and functionality of what is happening on your ableton screen. That the ableton GUI is already a revolution in live pa functionality is what makes the APC 40 so amazing.

[BloodStar]

Making a live pa is the most horrible tedious thing in the world.
Playing it, on the other hand.........

When are you going to send me music anyway me old china?

ey chief, i will send you something i did as Fractalized, got few tunes finished, so will be glad zou take a listen,.

got also few in progress tracks for singularity. not sure if it can fit into singularity box, as the tracks are just synths, not even typical 4x4 structure, but more sort of abstract composition synth tweaking and layering + mad FX....

let speak on MSN,. once i have chance to catch you there, hehe.

[Patrick DSP]

www.patrickdsp.com/m4l.mov

i got the apc so i can do live drum step sequencing with max4live! the above video was done with a beta version so it has some tweaks needed to be done. when i get off my ass I'll buy max4live that just came out. (don't mind the stock drum sounds in the movie ;) )

the apc really has turned out to be a great all in one controller for me.

[The_Laughing_Man]

www.patrickdsp.com/m4l.mov

i got the apc so i can do live drum step sequencing with max4live! the above video was done with a beta version so it has some tweaks needed to be done. when i get off my ass I'll buy max4live that just came out. (don't mind the stock drum sounds in the movie ;) )

the apc really has turned out to be a great all in one controller for me.

The Launchpad has this functionality right from the get go I believe.
Have you had a demo of one yet?