Drums / Kicks / Clean Sound

[tekboi]

Hi guys,

Not sure if anyone can help me on this or understand it but here goes anyway.
I basically have my setup at home sorted, just need some direction:

I came up with a couple of drum patterns & rendered the loops into WAV files to have a listen to them & see how they sound, distorted, the kick sounds muffled etc. How much emphasis is on the redlining in the master channel of Ableton, I am always keeping it at the green level, never red lining, sounds fine on my studio monitors but levels seem sooo low on any other player once exported. I know mastering is another thing to take into account but need help with the following..

So, how do I get a clean kick happening without any bass behind it but still sound a little chunky? If a kick sounds great as a sample, what work needs to be done to that sample alone? Do you guys clear the subbass on certain kick samples that create a certain distortion?
I basically find a nice kick sample, I have tried EQing the kick, compressors but can't seem to find the kick I am looking for. Just need a clean kick sound & would like to know the process to do so before I start creating my basslines & other melodies, which dont bother me, getting a clean drum/kick pattern is puzzling me. Does anyone have a tutorial anywhere I can see or a small guideline or file, would appreciate this help greatly..

I know I might not be explaining things clearly but hopefully someone can put me into the right direction, cheers guys..

[rhythmtech]

for really big kicks youneed to be layering samples on top of each other. sometimes i layer 3 or 4. all picked out for their own specific purposes, ie: i like the mid in one, the sub in another.

to make a kick cut thru the low end on a mix you need to be eqing properly. leaving room in the bass for the kick to sit etc. you also need to compress properly and not just for the sake of compressing.

another little trick is to add a touch of overdrive to the higher frequencies but leave the lower and sub frequencies untouched. the sparkle on top helps the attack push thru but the clean subs keep the weight intact.

[Jay Pace]

Half of the job is building the sort of kick sound.
The other half of this is shaping your mix right, so the kick fits properly.

If there are overlaps in frequency ranges your kick will end up muted and muddy, you need to carefully sculpt your mix so that it kicks and thumps in the way you want it to. You could have a perfect kick, but a lousy mix will swallow it whole. Or you could have a perfectly balanced mix with a kick that doesn't fit in it.

Its not easy unfortunately.

As for your mixes not sounding loud - there are a zillion tricks to bring up mix volume, mastering is one of them but really you have to learn how to build load mixes, and balance your mix across the frequency range and stereo space. This is also not easy.

The perceived loudness of your track and the way the kick fits are two of the more dominating themes of techno these days. No easy answers really, just got to experiment and learn as you go.

[SlavikSvensk]

i'm sort of over massive, gigantor kicks nowadays. still want some punch, mind you, but think a lot can be achieved through careful shaping...and sidechaining the kick train when you compress elsewhere.

[DannyBlack]

To get a fat bOOOOOoomph kind of a sound I layer two kicks- High end and low end and then EQ them through the same channel til I get the right sound.

[tekboi]

Awesome guys, thank you & a good start for me, I didnt think


for really big kicks youneed to be layering samples on top of each other. sometimes i layer 3 or 4. all picked out for their own specific purposes, ie: i like the mid in one, the sub in another.

to make a kick cut thru the low end on a mix you need to be eqing properly. leaving room in the bass for the kick to sit etc. you also need to compress properly and not just for the sake of compressing.

another little trick is to add a touch of overdrive to the higher frequencies but leave the lower and sub frequencies untouched. the sparkle on top helps the attack push thru but the clean subs keep the weight intact.

Thanks heaps rhythmtech, I will try layering a couple of different types of kicks to try get the sound I want. I honestly thought the more similar sounds you layer, such as kicks, the more distorted the sound will appear, I guess its all about the way you layer & mould it as one, I will give it a try & let you know how I go, respect.


Half of the job is building the sort of kick sound.
The other half of this is shaping your mix right, so the kick fits properly.

If there are overlaps in frequency ranges your kick will end up muted and muddy, you need to carefully sculpt your mix so that it kicks and thumps in the way you want it to. You could have a perfect kick, but a lousy mix will swallow it whole. Or you could have a perfectly balanced mix with a kick that doesn't fit in it.

Its not easy unfortunately.

As for your mixes not sounding loud - there are a zillion tricks to bring up mix volume, mastering is one of them but really you have to learn how to build load mixes, and balance your mix across the frequency range and stereo space. This is also not easy.

The perceived loudness of your track and the way the kick fits are two of the more dominating themes of techno these days. No easy answers really, just got to experiment and learn as you go.

Thanks Jay! With getting my mix sounding louder through the EQing & compressor part of this process, can you please tell me how much is involved regarding the redlining on the master level in Ableton?? Do you have to stay away from the red, keeping it only at green?? Even though the mix doesnt sound loud? I can only assume once I redline, I am hitting a level of distortion, is that this correct?


To get a fat bOOOOOoomph kind of a sound I layer two kicks- High end and low end and then EQ them through the same channel til I get the right sound.

Thanks Danny, I will give this a try today & let you know how I go.

EVERYONE:

I dont necessarily want a really fat kick, chunky or punchy, just want it to have a nice clean stab but what concerns me is the kicks that appeal have a low end finish, such as sub bass styled finish to the kick hit, if you know what I mean, how can compress that kick, just to punch & have no low end frequencies at all, which I would prefer, so that I can build my mix & add sub bass or melodies etc does this make sense or?

Sorry for all of these questions guys, much respect & hope you can help, 2010 is really only dedicated for me to start a road to production, it really is all I want to do, thanks again, you guys rock beyond words, ciao!

[Jay Pace]

Thanks Jay! With getting my mix sounding louder through the EQing & compressor part of this process, can you please tell me how much is involved regarding the redlining on the master level in Ableton?? Do you have to stay away from the red, keeping it only at green?? Even though the mix doesnt sound loud? I can only assume once I redline, I am hitting a level of distortion, is that this correct?

The moment you go into the red, you are clipping the mix, and when it finally comes to mixing down into an audio file, all the times when the mix goes red will turn into a horrible squarewave distortion.

The trick with kicks is for them to punch in all the right places. That means they need top end click for them to cut through the mix, a bit of mid range smack to make them fit with other percussive elements and then a good bit of sub thump to drive the track along.

There's plenty of ways to create kicks with little to no sub bass. You could eq it down, or just filter it out altogether. Barry's suggestion to use lots of layers of kicks is great - because you can built the kicks in parts - top, middle and bottom depending on what your mix is doing.

A kick will sound perceptually louder if it has more high end energy, but that will be lost when its "felt" on the dancefloor as it won't have any bass smack. You also need to think about where you want the track to be heard. Kicks are hugely important because people dance to them. Sounds obvious, but if your kick gets lost in your mix, or doesn't have energy in the right places it will sound weak and undanceable over a big system, that treats frequency energy differently to headphones or studio monitors.

Try and build you mix as loud as you can without any clipping. Then once you've done that, you can apply a very gentle amount of compression or limiting to raise the overall track volume. But one you start doing this, you'll change the character of the mix. Mastering is a dark and complex art, and generally best left to people who understand the ins and outs of it all.

Focus on get your mix as tight as possible (loud with no red lights) and when you feel you can't go any further, get someone pro to master it. You will never get a "pro" sound by yourself if you're relatively new to production, its just too complex and difficult to achieve without comprehensive understanding of all the tools available and well trained ears.

[The_Laughing_Man]

I used to layer my kicks but I tend to find you create more problems than you solve.
You introduce phasing issues and also watch those start points and badly clipped samples.
IT works but do be careful, make sure the samples all trigger correctly and check for phasing.

I tend to just use 1 or 2 kicks now, never or very rarely samples, I`ll use synth kick generators to create the right kick or kicks for the job.
Maybe a deep 808 style for that round low end, and then a slightly more aggressive 808-ish for some mid thwack.

If I am using low sub then I will set a very hard low cut on the kick (before compression) to scoop out room for the sub.

The current mnml trend is softer, deeper sine kicks (think 808) with a little snap/click on top.
These are very easy to create and can sound nice with creative compression.
They tend to be focal points of tunes so just make sure there is a lot of room for them, if that is the route you are going down.

[DannyBlack]

Steve, if you get a chance could you walk us through the steps of creating a kick from scratch?

[CTRLS]

I used to layer my kicks but I tend to find you create more problems than you solve.
You introduce phasing issues and also watch those start points and badly clipped samples.
IT works but do be careful, make sure the samples all trigger correctly and check for phasing.

I tend to just use 1 or 2 kicks now, never or very rarely samples, I`ll use synth kick generators to create the right kick or kicks for the job.
Maybe a deep 808 style for that round low end, and then a slightly more aggressive 808-ish for some mid thwack.

agree and i'm more or less the same these days. on digital setups i find it important to take extreme care that you dont get transients messing with each other and frequency ranges phasing each other out so i'm always very careful about my envelope settings when layering kicks and rarely layer more then 2. classic trick is to layer a shaker over it to give the high end more density.

building my own kicks from sinewaves and noise was a very good learning experience. i also spent a lot of time just processing single kicks and experimenting with severe shaping and pitching. if you know what you're doing you can get really interesting results by playing around with say a 909 sample.

i find the main frequency area to pay attention to as far as punch goes is around 90-120hz. if you focus all the weight too deep (the tail on a kick usually sits at around 50-60hz) you'll just get pure bass and no punch and it'll be hard to fit a bassline into your track (assuming you want one).

[tekboi]

A lot of this stuff is hard to take in & I know it takes time to learn & practice the road of production, I will keep at it & experiment, hopefully have something to post for you guys soon & let me know what you think. Anymore info or guidelines would be great, you guys rock!!


Steve, if you get a chance could you walk us through the steps of creating a kick from scratch?

This would be fantastic to know, if possible, thanks a million.
What are good generators or VST drum machines I can use to avoid using kick samples etc???

[CTRLS]

What are good generators or VST drum machines I can use to avoid using kick samples etc???

if you're on ableton then operator must be given a shot. best i've come across so far. there are some synths that do pretty decent percussion but i do find it pretty rare in the software world. the envelopes are usually to flabby and they start clicking when you want fast responses. i like sonic charge's utonic as well but a pro featured sampler will usually do the trick.

iproducer #4 - Unlink and Conquer + Bonus on Vimeo (http://www.vimeo.com/5962875) near the end of this video you can see how to do a basic tuned kick with operator.

nothing wrong with using samples. if you're on a digital setup there are things you wont be able to imitate, and capable analog drum machines and a proper interface to record them with will be expensive. the trick is to be extremely critical about your source sounds (that goes for everything not just drums). i'd recommend you to get a copy of some of the goldbaby sample packs. the mpc packs and the tape 808 and 909s are extremely handy for building kicks and they've got very nice warm and analog character to them. the kind of samples that work for you.

[The_Laughing_Man]

Steve, if you get a chance could you walk us through the steps of creating a kick from scratch?

I really really do wanna get another tutuorial done, but I`m currently working on the syllabus for the courses I will be teaching.
I will actually be setting up a facility for online, 1 to 1 and group workshops with live video/audio and 2 way audio for interaction.
When I am at the beta phase I might organise some free sessions via this part of the forum so I can test the system out.

[The_Laughing_Man]

A lot of this stuff is hard to take in & I know it takes time to learn & practice the road of production, I will keep at it & experiment, hopefully have something to post for you guys soon & let me know what you think. Anymore info or guidelines would be great, you guys rock!!



This would be fantastic to know, if possible, thanks a million.
What are good generators or VST drum machines I can use to avoid using kick samples etc???

Drumular is great
Sonic Charge Microtonic is good too, but more noisy.
I actually make a lot of my drums with FM8, but it`s a little complex to begin with.
There are some good presets that come with Abletons operator as well. They are a good place to start from.
Really Drumular is the one I turn to a lot, or Drumatic.


Free ones, there is Drumatic 3, which is very very good, and Rhythms BD2 which is also nice for more loose analog style.

[tekboi]

Drumular is great
Sonic Charge Microtonic is good too, but more noisy.
I actually make a lot of my drums with FM8, but it`s a little complex to begin with.
There are some good presets that come with Abletons operator as well. They are a good place to start from.
Really Drumular is the one I turn to a lot, or Drumatic.

Free ones, there is Drumatic 3, which is very very good, and Rhythms BD2 which is also nice for more loose analog style.

I will be giving the Drumular & Drumatic demos a go tonight, thanks Steve!!

[tekboi]

Thanks heaps everyone, much appreciated, I will give all these options above a go & let you know how I progress..

Just a couple of more questions, firstly, what do you guys think of Drumazon & Nepheton, good place to start for me??

Secondly, lets say I had money & was willing to spend this amount, is the product below worth it & will I be able to get my head around it quickly???

Elektron Music Machines (http://www.elektron.se/order/?sPage=details&sProd=ES_SPS1MK2.std)

Software is my aim of course, especially due to my learning process but.. I am willing to pay for products that can help me get the sound I want, prefer going this way rather than samples for some reason...?

[BloodStar]

My vote goes for MicroTonic,. Ultimate drumsynth with loads of interesting parameters for tweaking. Wouldnt say it is good just for noisy beats,. You can get nice rounded kicks and percs from it.

Drumazon and Nepheton is good too. Hoewever its sound is easily markable as 909 and 808 are not too new to the scene. But yeah, they do well what they're supposed to.

[The_Laughing_Man]

My vote goes for MicroTonic,. Ultimate drumsynth with loads of interesting parameters for tweaking. Wouldnt say it is good just for noisy beats,. You can get nice rounded kicks and percs from it.

Drumazon and Nepheton is good too. Hoewever its sound is easily markable as 909 and 808 are not too new to the scene. But yeah, they do well what they're supposed to.

I love the microtonic, but the problem comes with certain envelopes, particularly the noise envelope. IT`s very hard to get a very very tight solid "real" kick sound from it. The envelopes seem a little too elastic.
I use it a lot though.

As for drumazon and Nepheton, yeah yeah, 909 emulation and blah blah.
Very limited in use, dated in sound and just not that versatile, personally I wouldn`t bother, you`ll get more mileage out of the others synths metnioned.

The Elektron Machine Drum on the other hand, is Godlike.
It`s more than a drum machine really, great to play, and well, worth having.
Expensive though, and support isn`t the best.

[tekboi]

I love the microtonic, but the problem comes with certain envelopes, particularly the noise envelope. IT`s very hard to get a very very tight solid "real" kick sound from it. The envelopes seem a little too elastic.
I use it a lot though.

As for drumazon and Nepheton, yeah yeah, 909 emulation and blah blah.
Very limited in use, dated in sound and just not that versatile, personally I wouldn`t bother, you`ll get more mileage out of the others synths metnioned.

The Elektron Machine Drum on the other hand, is Godlike.
It`s more than a drum machine really, great to play, and well, worth having.
Expensive though, and support isn`t the best.


I dont like the Microtonic for some reason, I am with Steve on this one, no tightness in the sound, not comfortable with it at all..

Hmm looks like Drumazon & Nepheton is not really worth my money & time..

Okay, so, if I decide to make a move to get the Elektron, I will not be making a mistake?
I should get my head around it the same way I would get any of the other instruments in the first place, correct?
I don't plan on playing live yet, just producing music at home, this has nothing to do with my decision to get this drum machine, from what I have seen & been told, with work, it will get me the sound I want, especially for my kicks, drums & percussion?
The drum machines are a generator, all sounds are built in, correct?
No sampler? Not that I need or want it to have a sample but curious..

Sorry for the questions guys, Steve, much respect, just very curious on this piece of equipment now, even though its not a solid move yet, as software might be a better start for me, hmm, you guys rock more than anyone, cheers!!

[BloodStar]

No tightness in the sound of Microtonic?? hmhm

Steve> yeah, the enevlopes could be faster, and also complete ADSR envelope controls would be deffinitely better then AR sliders.

Anyway, noise can be completely bypassed with OSC <-> NOISE slider, soo you can get it out of the signal path,.