Should you give your music away ?

[davethedrummer]

Something Mark Hawkins said in another post really rang a bell in my head
and I'm now thinking about just giving away my music for free.
I mean f^ck it, If the sales are crap anyway, why not just give it away ?
at least more people will hear it and maybe more gigs will come out of it.

thoughts ?

[DannyBlack]

good topic, Henry.


Right. I personally came in at the wrong time to make money from music so I'm not going to delude myself into thinking I ever will. If someone likes a track and wants to release it, any money (if any) it makes they can put it into the label and thats how I like it. I never wanted this to be about money for me.

Again thats my personal view of how I want things to work for me. I have my other career to keep me in pence. That is, when I'm qualified etc...

This is the only side of it I know.

I think nowadays it is more performance orientated than say putting out CD's. The money to sustain what you do would come from shows that you put on (audio/visual)

If you want to make money from music, you have to be clever about it. Techno, whether we like it or not is an underground thing that will never enjoy any real commercial success. Im not saying make minimal- make other things, work on concepts- marketing stratergies. thats what business is- advertising and marketing and being bloody clever.

im not sure where i was heading with this- am i making sense?

[a X cell]

I want to read more about this subject.
Seriously, I'm going pretty much everywhere to find some label to release an EP I worked hard on. And personally, the goal within this is just to get my music listened at, not getting money out of it (altough it would be pleasing since studies cost a lot these days but let's be realist, who the f*** would buy some song from some newcomer they never heard of?).
Should I stop sending CDs to labels and come over and give my music for free? =S

[qUE]

Depends on your overheads. If you're filthy rich, why not? But if you're not and you've had to shell out for vinyl pressing, distribution and bacon sandwiches, then you should at least try and recoup that money. Well that's my theory anyway :)

[DannyBlack]

I would agree. The advent of digital has brought about a bigger amount of piracy though. We have traktor now so there is no need for us to shell out for vinyl. Don't get me wrong though, I still pay for my music- but there are countless amounts of forums with the tracks up on Rapidshare.

[morbid]

For someone of your calibre I can only see you gaining.

No disrespect to you.... but

Before the digital thing came along I used to buy up all your vinyl releases, hydraulix, boscaland, routemaster etc etc. there was no other way to get hold of your music.

Nowadays I wouldnt pay for one of your digital releases, not because its not worth anything but because theres so much else out there that I dont have to pay for.

I spend a minimum of about 2 hours a day listening to new music and I haven't bought a CD or record for over 3 years. I have hard drives full of quality stuff that I haven't even got round to listening to through rapidshare or netlabels. Im not saying its the right thing to do (not paying for music) but its the way things have become. In rare cases if I like the free stuff I do download the album or whatever but in terms of revenue I dont think its about the music anymore, its about the name and the brand and the performance.

I wouldn't pick up a mutate to survive on digital if I had to pay for it. I would definately download if it was free.

Do you gain from this - I don't know. Your music becomes more accesible to a wider target audience providing you centralise your distribution of the freebies. ie. all digital releases availble for free at (www.) davethedrummer.com. as Mark does. That way you can track who is downloading your music. You don't gain financially but you gain a better perspective of where your music is popular giving you ideas about where to market your DJ / Live performances better.

[BloodStar]

givin your music away for free will definitelly give you back your artistic freedom, and as you are not earning money from sales, cause they are shite as you said, then you wont looose much.

i guess if you will be smart while advertising your free releases, you can find new audience and build new fanbase. Then you can back it up with some clever merchandising, and you are profiting. Not financially, but in other ways. Last but not least, musical wise your artistic fredom won't be limited by labels, which regardless money, will be the biggest benefit for yourself, imo.

[davethedrummer]

Interesting points so far
I get that point about wanting it but not paying for it.
that was marks point exactly, and he said that as soon as he put his stuff up free it really started moving.
I gues the thing to do is ask if it has made any difference in any other areas of marks working life.
like has he got more paid work from it ?
because at the end of the day tracks take time to make, good or bad tracks
and you can't spend your entire life making tracks for nothing , it's just not possible.
unless you want to starve to death in your studio.

an to A X Cell yeah mate , I would just give it away if your very new to the scene
just to get an idea of an audience reaction.
forget the record deal idea for now, record labels are mostly crap anyway these days.

[DannyBlack]

On one hand, they way things have gone is complete minge, but on the other hand it is pretty healthy. Now is the time to start brain storming on new ideas and ways to run with music.

ps I sent you a PM on sound cloud H, about your dubstep tune.

[Jay Pace]

Do a radiohead - give it away for free, but with a donation attached. Then everyone who feels like paying can, and you can track all the downloads, know how many people got hold of it and you'll probably get more than the 12p a track thats leftover after everyone and their dog has taken an percentage cut.

Radiohead made much more money as well, giving stuff away. They didn't have to pay anyone to distribute, a zillion people got their album and they got paid much more for their work than normal.

I think its a great strategy.

[morbid]

Do a radiohead - give it away for free, but with a donation attached. Then everyone who feels like paying can, and you can track all the downloads, know how many people got hold of it and you'll probably get more than the 12p a track thats leftover after everyone and their dog has taken an percentage cut.

Radiohead made much more money as well, giving stuff away. They didn't have to pay anyone to distribute, a zillion people got their album and they got paid much more for their work than normal.

I think its a great strategy.

spot on - like I said I wouldn't pay for a mutate to survive release even though I like them - let me download them all as 320's or WAV and I would bung a quid or two by paypal no problem.

Or the Hydraulix complete back catalogue - thats gotta be worth at least a fiver. :)

[davethedrummer]

spot on - like I said I wouldn't pay for a mutate to survive release even though I like them - let me download them all as 320's or WAV and I would bung a quid or two by paypal no problem.

Or the Hydraulix complete back catalogue - thats gotta be worth at least a fiver. :)

yeah maybe that's the way
cos if there's a lot more people like you thinking the same thing
I could bung my stuff up with a donation button make a few quid , you all get tracks for dirt cheap
and we're all happy

aren't we ?......

[DannyBlack]

Absolutely. I steal software, I'm not gonna try and deny it. Music, I won't steal. I have only just started on the digital path due to the advent of Traktor.

The option to donate is class I think. And I'm pretty sure people would have the respect to do so. Id hope they would. Plus you don't need to pay distro.

[DannyBlack]

I was just thinking- what are the benefits of having your music on Juno and the likes? The mailing list. So if you choose to do the donation thing, make sure people are put on a mailing list- for releases etc.

[SlavikSvensk]

to be devil's advocate, if more and more people give their music away for free, then there will be fewer and fewer labels. not zero labels, but fewer, as people naturally like filtering mechanisms and labels are exactly that. this could, ironically, have the effect of concentrating more power in fewer hands.

[DannyBlack]

I agree to a certain extent. I think what is killing labels anyway is the fact that you can choose the tracks you want to buy from the EP rather than buying the whole EP. personally I don't like that.

[SlavikSvensk]

well, what's happening is that labels below a certain threshold of popularity are dying. minus, ostgut, ghostly, cocoon, etc. are not dying; they're doing quite well.

that means that the as the means of creating and distributing techno has democratized, the ability to be compensated for making it has gone in the opposite direction. you have to be part of the 'aristocracy' to make money off releases.

that's a good reason for someone to want to give their music away, but i think if that got really widespread quickly, if would just further the above trend.

i like the idea of giving some music away, and supporting labels with other music. like when dr. schmidt gave that electro track away. i had no idea who he was, but now i do. i will listen to his tracks on juno, beatport, etc. now.

[DannyBlack]

+1. What you're saying is a fact. To make money you need to have got your roots dug in before the digital explosion. Before music was easier to make in your home and before the decline of vinyl/rise of digital.

To be honest, I see more success by venturing away from Juno, BeatPort and the others. But and this is a big But; you need to play it clever. Decide on what is free and what isn't. Check out your key demographic, their WIN's (Wants, Interests and Needs) and to a certain extent cater to them a bit more.

Maybe I'm rambling a bit here, I may write a big thing about it later. Techno is a product and as such, should be marketed like one.

[wrong]

Good thread!
I've been running my label for 10 years now and for the last few years although sometimes it might make a little money (mainly with the represses), it pretty much just sustains itself so it's not like i profit from it anyway, if i could press vinyl and give it away for free without losing money then i would, but obviously that's not possible..
I'd completely go the route of giving the ep's away for free as i'm sure it would reach a larger audience (maybe) except for the fact that it would mean going digital only and i do love me vinyl...
I'm sure the day is looming when it will become almost impossible for smaller labels to release vinyl but i'm clinging on to the edge of that cliff by my fingernails waiting for the big man to stamp on my hands .. and i have to say, enjoying the suspense ...

[a X cell]

I took this question out of BOA to talk about it on some boards. I got some interesting answers.

Those are all good possibilities. However, I think this is the kind of thing that will work best for established artists with a dedicated fanbase, which is the case for both Radiohead and NIN. This probably won't do much for relatively unknown up-and-comers. Word of a "free" Radiohead or NIN album spreads like wildfire in all kinds of media. Word of a free Omni or {insert relatively unknown producer here} album probably won't get that much exposure.


While I am all about digital distribution (and even free music sharing to some extent), I can also see one of the downsides of it today. Music today, being either dirt-cheap or freely available (through legal or illegal means), has become a disposable commodity. Today, the "life expectancy" of a good electronic dance music track has dropped significantly from a few months to a few weeks. I think that the price of music, while not being the only factor, has something to do with it. Back when I was playing only vynil, paying 15$ for a track + B-side, that track could remain in my crate for months and sometimes one or two years if I really thought it was awesome. These days, with the same budget and the quantity of music coming out, a good track is often only played a few weeks. There are a lot of aspects to "this problem", but I believe that putting a price on your music, for some reason, seems to give it more value to a lot of people. That is unfortunately the way things are today.

That leads me to a question I ask myself.
We all talk about NIN/Radiohead/Electro right now for this matter. Let's get to the point : this is pretty much easier to get your music known by any means (free or not) when you're already established.

Let's take my case. I'm making some Experimental 135bpm-ish Techno. The only labels I could release on are : Naked Lunch AND Impact Mechanics since it's pretty much the sound that looks like mine. Unfortunately, I get no news for them since... I'm a no-name into this ocean of no-name who postulates for the label. So yeah, what to do now?

1. Give away my music for free but at the same time, struggling on publicity since the internet is fulfilled by music made in an hour by a 12 years old boy (been there, done that) or else, not getting that much of attention like Omni said.

2. Keep sending demos of my EP to labels... but which ones?

Your opinion on this one?

[tonyc2002]

I want to read more about this subject.
Seriously, I'm going pretty much everywhere to find some label to release an EP I worked hard on. And personally, the goal within this is just to get my music listened at, not getting money out of it (altough it would be pleasing since studies cost a lot these days but let's be realist, who the f*** would buy some song from some newcomer they never heard of?).
Should I stop sending CDs to labels and come over and give my music for free? =S


I wouldn't mind hearing your music! :)

[cossinnelle]

I think there are a few problems falling in an "all free" system :

- Labels make their selection and try to ensure a certain level of quality, that's their work and they have to do it well if they want to sell. Will quality remain if labels no more exist?

- In fact I think quality tracks would still exist, but that leads me to my second point : how will the djs find the music they like? will they have to go from myspace to myspace to listen to three or four tracks each time, making a prayer and hopping each time that they will at least find a nice track? When I see the time I spend on juno to find so few tracks I really like, I can't imagine what it would be if everyone would distrubute his music (even fo free) by himself....

- Last but not least, and that's the logical conclusion of what I've said above, that would be very hard for new artists to get their audience. Now labels can find new artists and bring them to light through websites that reach a large audience such as juno, chemical and so on...
without those interfaces new artists would stay in the shadow.

[Jay Pace]

Not everyone can do it for free. Most people are trying to get heard. If you haven't got the reputation you need to use the resources and reputations of labels to get noticed.

But if you're in the position where people are actively looking for your stuff, and you already have loads of fans, and platforms to connect with them, why would you ask them to pay an online shop, a distributor & a label for your music when you could just give it to them for nothing and make more money out of it?

[davethedrummer]

I think there are a few problems falling in an "all free" system :

- Labels make their selection and try to ensure a certain level of quality, that's their work and they have to do it well if they want to sell. Will quality remain if labels no more exist?

- In fact I think quality tracks would still exist, but that leads me to my second point : how will the djs find the music they like? will they have to go from myspace to myspace to listen to three or four tracks each time, making a prayer and hopping each time that they will at least find a nice track? When I see the time I spend on juno to find so few tracks I really like, I can't imagine what it would be if everyone would distrubute his music (even fo free) by himself....

- Last but not least, and that's the logical conclusion of what I've said above, that would be very hard for new artists to get their audience. Now labels can find new artists and bring them to light through websites that reach a large audience such as juno, chemical and so on...
without those interfaces new artists would stay in the shadow.


I see what you are saying here
and it's true as of now.
But think of where the current networking sites want to be in say, 2 years all linked up sharing friends and contacts ,a total cross pollenation of networking sites
and I don't think you'll have to run round the internet looking for peoples tracks any more.
I think the ones you like will drop into your inbox once you have made contact with the labels or people you want to follow.
it's already happening now really.

interesting point about the artist who already has exposure ie: radiohead
yeah that makes sense, I suppose I have my fans too, so I could do a couple of freebies as pressies for the fans and also maybe to reach new ears too.
maybe a couple of free ones
and then an album or something like that?

it's food for thought

[SlavikSvensk]

I think there are a few problems falling in an "all free" system :

- Labels make their selection and try to ensure a certain level of quality, that's their work and they have to do it well if they want to sell. Will quality remain if labels no more exist?

- In fact I think quality tracks would still exist, but that leads me to my second point : how will the djs find the music they like? will they have to go from myspace to myspace to listen to three or four tracks each time, making a prayer and hopping each time that they will at least find a nice track? When I see the time I spend on juno to find so few tracks I really like, I can't imagine what it would be if everyone would distrubute his music (even fo free) by himself....

- Last but not least, and that's the logical conclusion of what I've said above, that would be very hard for new artists to get their audience. Now labels can find new artists and bring them to light through websites that reach a large audience such as juno, chemical and so on...
without those interfaces new artists would stay in the shadow.

this is where i was going too. right now techno is in danger of becoming an oligarchy, where a very small number of established artists dominate the business side of things. while getting music to fans cheaply or even for free is great, if it becomes widespread, the digital labels will die. if they die, then the ability to reach a certain level of exposure will be completely in the hands of the 'techno aristocracy.'

like them or not, labels provide an essential service in sustaining some semblance of economic viability to techno beyond the stadium packers.

so yeah...henry please give some stuff away but please don't stop helping out the little labels!

[TechMouse]

When I was younger (and poorer) I used to spend most of my money on vinyl and pretty much download everything else. My rationale at the time being "I'm spending more money on music than most people I know, and it's going in at the grass roots level where it will do the most good". I would occasionally buy a high-quality audio file if I was planning to burn it to a CD to play out or something, provided it was DRM free and good quality - I had to ask for my money back a couple of times because a file was really dodgy.

Now I'm older and I have a bit more free cash I've started paying for things I really like. I discovered gofasterstripe.com and started buying some really good comedy DVDs. I've bought several digital albums this year already (the DubFX album, Insides by Jon Hopkins and Caesura by Helios) plus loads of individual tracks. I shelled out for my copy of Ableton. I even bought the full version of WinAMP (why not? I use it every day and it costs next to nothing). I also bought A Midsummer Nice Dream by Ochre on vinyl because Chris repressed it and it only cost £5.

I think my point is that people who really love music are always going to spend as much as they can reasonably afford on it. Those that don't probably don't love it as much, and you can't let those people drive your decision.

I think the donation model is great, but I would occasionally back it up with a value added product - e.g. a vinyl or CD (or DVD) in nice packaging with good artwork and <insert something else novel here>. That guy that gave away a free noise making circuit in the package of the CD was on to something.

[lunatrick]

personally I'm happy to pay for downloads, it's cheaper than vinyl anyway, and I don't want some dodgy copy, but the proper file in high quality. I think giving 'some' music away free is fair enough but to give everything away free seems a bit like paying to publish your own book really, a bit of a vanity project. If people won't pay for it then is it worth releasing?

There's got to be some mileage in releasing back catalogues, I'd certainly pay to download the whole hydraulix library, amoungst others.

For new comers it's bewildering really.....the latest release pages on beatport for just techno run into the hundreds. hundreds of pages of shite. I think juno and beatport should be just as selective as if they were paying up front for the vinyl.

Does anybody know how the download sites are doing? 909london for example, surely they must be generating some money?

[jon connor]

good topic, Henry.


Right. I personally came in at the wrong time to make money from music so I'm not going to delude myself into thinking I ever will. If someone likes a track and wants to release it, any money (if any) it makes they can put it into the label and thats how I like it. I never wanted this to be about money for me.

Again thats my personal view of how I want things to work for me. I have my other career to keep me in pence. That is, when I'm qualified etc...

This is the only side of it I know.

I think nowadays it is more performance orientated than say putting out CD's. The money to sustain what you do would come from shows that you put on (audio/visual)

If you want to make money from music, you have to be clever about it. Techno, whether we like it or not is an underground thing that will never enjoy any real commercial success. Im not saying make minimal- make other things, work on concepts- marketing stratergies. thats what business is- advertising and marketing and being bloody clever.

im not sure where i was heading with this- am i making sense?

fair play danny well said im the same as you here dude i have a career which will keep me in pence to but techno is my hobby and also a good source of social life for me and has been for 16 years so im thinking in the same way about giving future trax away as it may help with more bookings for gigs etc
but erm some of us are diffrent here and in it it for diffrnt reasons but yea i never thought of making a living from this just a great social life and intrests , some people play bingo hahahahahaha

Henry i wouldent give your stuff away to easy dude , if you are thinking about it then mabey try and have a time limit on the sale then mabey move into an area say set up on your hydraulix network you can put for free, that way in time you will not only please a lot of fans but have a nice back cat which will b availble at any time to retrieve i dunno just an idea man mabey have a hydraulix free section this may also increase the traffic to your site.

[SlavikSvensk]

what about netlabels? these, i think, retain some of the advantages of labels as filters but distribute directly and often for free

[DannyBlack]

Yeah I think the Net labels have a lot of Merrit and could be the way that most go. I think having an option to donate too would be a good idea.

[Microdot]

fcuk giving away music for free. if ppl want it for free they'll find a way to steal it anyway.

And cunts like Radiohead fully realise the damage they are doing to smaller artists and labels by doing so.
A point I made on here at the time, and subsequently supported by artists such as Daft Punk, Wu Tang Clan and Lily Allen in the established music press.
Anyone who doesn't understand why a mainstream act giving their music away free is bad for upcoming acts is an idiot.

[DannyBlack]

People were stealing a long time before acts were giving their music away. Personally I think the transfer to digital is what started the decline of the profit margin for musicians.

DJ's are digital, whether it be vinyl or ableton. Digital is much more accessible and stealable than it was in vinyls hayday.

Again I'm not involved enough to give a solid factual insight, but this is how I see it.

[MITA]

is true.

but take in mind Henry that you will make a culture of free music by giving it away,rather than learning newbies to buy and respect the artist and his work.

1 free release per year for the fans and followers is okay in my book.

[DannyBlack]

From what I can gather here, there are two views: Yes and No.

A rethink is needed. What do you guys think you can do to improve on the mess that it is at the moment?

[The Overfiend]

Keep sending your demo's
You'll be surprised who bites in the end.
Otherwise heed the opinions of respected peers as well in lieu of constructive criticism.

[teknorich]

I like the way these guys operate:

Mo`s Ferry Productions (http://www.mosferry.de/releases/allg.html)

All releases are on vinyl and mp3, but they have lots of bonus, digital-only tracks which are free to download.

I guess the idea is you download it for free so it gives you a taste of the record, it makes you curious and you listen to the samples of the other tracks on the release (which are streaming only, not free download) then hopefully you end up buying that release overall.

For those who would just soulseek the music anyway, it's a way to keep them interested in your label because you're giving away good quality mp3 files, and for those who still buy music it's a good way to get people's interest and hopefully sales in future.

Kind of a halfway house?!

[clubsynthetic]

Not had a chance to read all the post yet,, but everything should be free in my book! ;)

But aye, money is in the live performance... you can't fake that!

[clubsynthetic]

and anyway, why should radiohead give a **** about any other artists? Everyone's in it for the money! and if you ain't, don't cry about it.

I like to pay for shit just now if it means it's better. and i now know thats once every 6 months.. cos i'm broke all the time..

[SlavikSvensk]

fcuk giving away music for free. if ppl want it for free they'll find a way to steal it anyway.

And cunts like Radiohead fully realise the damage they are doing to smaller artists and labels by doing so.
A point I made on here at the time, and subsequently supported by artists such as Daft Punk, Wu Tang Clan and Lily Allen in the established music press.
Anyone who doesn't understand why a mainstream act giving their music away free is bad for upcoming acts is an idiot.

it's like everything else...with one hand it gives, and with the other it taketh away.

[Jay Pace]

Anyone who doesn't understand why a mainstream act giving their music away free is bad for upcoming acts is an idiot.

They didn't give it away for free though.
They made much more money, by not asking their fans to pay sales portals and distributors, and just pay them, the band, what they thought it was worth. Some gave them nothing. Others paid them what they though the album should cost.

Nobody is doing up and comers favours by releasing their music, so that it can sit on servers, where nobody hears it because nobody is prepared to buy something from an artist they've never heard. And thats in the event they can even find them in the first place, buried beneath a thousand tonnes of crap.

Nothing stopping labels going direct to fans either. They'd get a hell of a lot more out their artists if they didn't need to pay distributors and sales portals the majority cut just to get stocked and sold.

The main people threatened by people giving stuff away, are the people who offer no real value beyond the ability to sell.

[SlavikSvensk]

the whole house of cards is collapsing. i don't see a good alternative on the horizon. doom! gloom!

[DannyBlack]

A lot of people have that attitude, but feck it- time to rethink.

[SlavikSvensk]

so where does that rethink start?

i think labels are still very useful. one thing i've seen more of are netlabels that subsidize their existence--and ability to give things away for free--by offering mastering services and releasing sample packs. not sure if that's really a long-term viable solution, though.

[DannyBlack]

well I think the rethink should start right now. I mean, if you want your music to sell you can't just sit back and wait for it to happen. You can't rely on someone/record company- else to create a new model then go with it. If you honest to god are determined to sell your music then you need to get on it and create the market yourself. An independant market. Personally, I don't know- but that's the way id be looking at things.

[DannyBlack]

Digital aside; I think the decline in sales has something to do with the decline in quality. There was a huge feeling of massproduction for a while.

Maybe it was the other way around. A continuum of rubbish versus sales. Are people going to buy into tripe? The less money was made, the more it was churned out. Techno became pop.

[vegim]

while getting music to fans cheaply or even for free is great, if it becomes widespread, the digital labels will die. if they die, then the ability to reach a certain level of exposure will be completely in the hands of the 'techno aristocracy.'




---------------->

[lunatrick]

[QUOTE Techno became pop.[/QUOTE]

yeah but more pop is being sold in singles than ever before due to downloads...it doesn't seem to be the same with techno sales though.

BBC News - Singles sales soar to record high (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/8439963.stm)

I think the music is going the same way as dj'ing - somewhere along the way it stopped being a spectator sport and people just preferred doing it themselves, leading to hundreds if not thousands of mediocre labels.

[davethedrummer]

[QUOTE Techno became pop.

yeah but more pop is being sold in singles than ever before due to downloads...it doesn't seem to be the same with techno sales though.

BBC News - Singles sales soar to record high (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/8439963.stm)

I think the music is going the same way as dj'ing - somewhere along the way it stopped being a spectator sport and people just preferred doing it themselves, leading to hundreds if not thousands of mediocre labels.[/QUOTE]


basically music and media is in very high demand
the highest ever.
but....will people pay ?
pop music thrives on live concerts, advertising and music videos now
the sales may have gone up but the prices have tumbled so who's winning ?

but with techno because its small to start off with
it really suffers with no sales, there's no KFC endorsements for us
so we have to sell the bloody stuff.

I like the teaser idea
give away the odd track to get people to come and check out the label etcc..
I think that would work.

[DannyBlack]

create an alter ego, create pop, enjoy the takes. Eric Prydz, Pryda, Mouseville...

no shame in it.

[Winds]

I like the teaser idea
give away the odd track to get people to come and check out the label etcc..
I think that would work.

Sounds like the best option to me. IMO giving away a free track every now & again would definitely attract more people to other tracks you have available to buy. This has been the case with me. About 2 years ago beatport released a few free tracks by different established artists as part of a promotion for beatport. I hadnt bought any tracks by any of the artists before, but always check them out when I see their new tracks released now, and buy them if I like them.

[Luke_C]

I think radiohead did it right, and i plan to do something similar myself.
Releasing you album for free with an optional donation system on your website/myspace etc is an excellent idea. It cuts out labels, distributors, shops/downloads sites which means if someone gives you a euro for 12 tracks you get the euro. rather then 12 euro for 12 tracks and you only get 50% of 50% of 50% of 50% or whatever bs. not that you didn't know that already lol

[crime]

Interesting points so far
I get that point about wanting it but not paying for it.
that was marks point exactly, and he said that as soon as he put his stuff up free it really started moving.
I gues the thing to do is ask if it has made any difference in any other areas of marks working life.
like has he got more paid work from it ?
because at the end of the day tracks take time to make, good or bad tracks
and you can't spend your entire life making tracks for nothing , it's just not possible.
unless you want to starve to death in your studio.

an to A X Cell yeah mate , I would just give it away if your very new to the scene
just to get an idea of an audience reaction.
forget the record deal idea for now, record labels are mostly crap anyway these days.

my 2p:

My experience of trying to sell my album made me re-evaluate everything- I took about 18 months out of making music after that experience as it depressed me deeply at the time - but in the end I really wanted to make music again, so I made music because I wanted to - this is the best reason to make music and the results are much better for it - When I was earning a living from music, I had a lot of time to write stuff, but I really don't think the quality was necessarily any better. You lose the hunger for it, and also you feel that you should be making music even if you have no good ideas, because it's your job. You make trax out of liveset trax which you had to write just because you had a live gig you had to do to pay the rent. You then try and sell the trax to a label as you need to maximise the income for the work. Then you meet the Artistic freedom vs market forces argument which often happens with labels, where the label is telling you "oh it has to be more like this or like that" to sell units. Changing your style, even slightly, just to sell records is the biggest mistake you can ever make as then you are diluting your own artistic vision - therefore diluting you uniqueness, which, if you have a lot of originality, is the card you are playing -

giving stuff away for free gives you the ultimate freedom to express yourself exactly the way you want to- no label saying "oh, make it more like this/make it more like that".. for the money that can be made out of mp3 or even Vinyl releases it's not worth diluting yourself just to get on this or that label. As Henry says labels can be a pain to deal with anyway.. and whilst it is a buzz to hear people playing your stuff out - if that is your sole motivation behind making music, to "get somewhere", I really think you should be making a style of music which is more popular - if you try and do it with techno/IDM you will be sorely disappointed.

People know my name, and I get a few gigs a year - but I still have to work 9-5 to live - many people are under the illusion that once you get picked up by a big label, that's it, you have no worries, your life is going to be like something out of MTV "Cribs". doesn't work like that. I guess giving some stuff away for free has probably helped in some way, but I think doing a weekly mix has helped me more as far as getting gigs is concerned - but it's hard to say, as these things come in waves, you might do no records and have an amazing gig year, you might do 10 releases and have a slack year...

[scott_robinson]

I am new to this forum and so far I am begining to feel at home here. After reading this thread I fealt I had to add.

I have been away from the 'music business' and recently decided I had to do it again. Simply to just be creative.

My job is boring, no suprise there we probably all hate our jobs however I make computer games for a living. I won't argue it should be the most fun in the world you can get paid to do. I thought it would be great but like everything else these days created on a computer there is no market any longer for computer games with any kind of plot or substance because people download so much. This means publishers just want a version of the biggest selling game that year. So I find that I had to get back to the music to vent my creative passion.

Mark actually talked me into it and I am glad he did.

Basically I started writing 'techno' in the early 90's and it was new and exciting the scene was alive. As the years went on it changed and morphed through many phases. The one thing that has always remained constant is the style I choose to do. No one could ever really put it into a genre and I used to hate that.

However. That is, irronically, why Iam now writing techno again. Because you can do what you want.

I have friends in the rock and pop worlds and they have to conform so much that it is upsetting. I don't. I can go home after a shitty day at work and hammer out some group of sounds and rhythms that capture that mood forever.

I released a song on Cluster once that I am really glad the Liberator boys released quite simply because it was pure punk. My boss had pissed me off at work I came home and wrote it in an hour. It was pure emotion. The song was ready from the night before and I came home and whacked all the levels on the desk up to overload and recorded it.

Anyway back on topic.

I dont think anything has changed since 7 years ago when I stopped writing to now when I have returned.

Yes we have more tools and yes we can get our work heard by someone in Austrailia minutes after we upload it. But in the early 90's it was just as hard for me. Take away the internet and software and roll back time and you have the same disadvantages you have today.

I had to post demos. I couldn't afford the equipment that LFO had. So it was harder to get together a good demo on a tight budget. But I never gave up.

Now it's the other way round. The sounds are easy to get and the equipment is far cheaper. So when balanced out all you have left is raw talent.

Make something good and people will listen, make something different and they won't forget.

In the past music was about capturing an emotion that could relate to others the great thing about techno is you can do that, anyone can.

To get back on point. I will happily let people have my music for free if they REALLY want it. If it makes them feel something then it has served it's purpose. If you crave fame then maybe that will only come through hard work as it always has done. I have always made sure I dont have to live on my music so that I can be free to do what I want to do.

People I know in bands are always saying to me 'must be great to just hammer out what you want when you want' and I say 'yeah but it can be lonely sometimes' :D. Everything has pros ad cons.Those people in that band got a 500 000 quid advance, which they are still paying back some 15 years on because the label dropped them.

I am sorry about the length of my first post here but the subject is an important one and I am extremely interested in peoples views having been away for a while. As Mark said 'my 2 pence worth'.

http://www.myspace.com/scottrobinsontechno

[rhythmtech]

nice first post scott... and man i remember your stuff from years ago! think i used to hammer out a tune of yours on cluster?

[king aaron]

I want some free music but I don't want to steal it or download it illegally, who are some singers who give away their music for free? Like they choose to give it away and want people to download it?

[tonyc2002]

I am new to this forum and so far I am begining to feel at home here. After reading this thread I fealt I had to add.

I have been away from the 'music business' and recently decided I had to do it again. Simply to just be creative.

My job is boring, no suprise there we probably all hate our jobs however I make computer games for a living.


I made a website using Actionscript!!!!!! Can I have a job!?? :cheese:

[clubsynthetic]

So we all think it should all be free. Give me your music NOW! haha

[crime]

fcuk giving away music for free. if ppl want it for free they'll find a way to steal it anyway.
So, you would rather release music which is a compromise on your own vision over giving away stuff which is exactly how you want it to sound rather than have it rotting away on your hard drive with no-one hearing it? How is someone gonna steal something which no label will release because in their eyes it's "too much of a risk"?

and how exactly do mainstream pop/rock acts giving away music for free damage sales of techno music? sorry, I just don't understand how your points make sense.. Techno/electronic music has become less and less popular for years, definitely since the heady days of 1995/1996. There's no point in being bitter (I'm not saying you necessarily are) about the fact it's very very difficult to earn a living from it. Surely if you are making stuff it's better to get it out there in whatever way you can than just be sat on stuff because there are no labels around which consider your music viable to release on conventional formats. I'm seeing this personally as the greatest opportunity ever to be able to break out of any creative ruts I've been stuck in in the past and to do stuff which is really different without worrying about compromising any kind of "Careeer" I might have once had...

[Microdot]

So, you would rather release music which is a compromise on your own vision over giving away stuff which is exactly how you want it to sound rather than have it rotting away on your hard drive with no-one hearing it? How is someone gonna steal something which no label will release because in their eyes it's "too much of a risk"?

I have always released music that is exactly how I've wanted it to sound and never compromised on my own vision, and have never given it away for free.

[crime]

I have always released music that is exactly how I've wanted it to sound and never compromised on my own vision, and have never given it away for free.

well, you're lucky to be in that position.. Myself, I don't have that privilege.. So, what are you saying exactly, that no-one else should give their music away, just because you haven't been put in that position yourself? Just interested to know...

[Microdot]

well, you're lucky to be in that position.. Myself, I don't have that privilege.. So, what are you saying exactly, that no-one else should give their music away, just because you haven't been put in that position yourself? Just interested to know...

No, people can do what they want. But everyone giving their music away for free will create more problems than it will solve.

[The_Laughing_Man]

Exactly.
IF music should be free then why not everything else.
Why pay for shoes, or groceries or anything that some amount of work has been done to produce.
To be really good at music and production takes a lot of time and hard work.
It`s not something you can do in the evening as a little hobby if you are serious about it.
I think a balance between giving stuff out for the fans and also keeping some stuff for purchase or donation is better.
Otherwise everything becomes devalued.
It`s such a complicated situation though, a simple answer isn`t possible.
These are very very frustrating times, but digital media is still young, and I think piracy protection is going to become stronger (for good or for bad) and we will see an end to piracy, on the scale it is at now anyway.
It`s a case of riding out the rough weather maybe.
Personally I have found another way doing what I enjoy in music to pay the rent, which has freed me up to release music that would have been more risky. And I can be more self indulgent (and pretentious) in what music I put out there.

**** knows basically. Do what you need to do to survive, but also, Never give up, never lose hope, never compromise and never sell out.
Impossible ey?

[DarkYoung]

yeah maybe that's the way
cos if there's a lot more people like you thinking the same thing
I could bung my stuff up with a donation button make a few quid , you all get tracks for dirt cheap
and we're all happy

aren't we ?......


totally stupid idea.

in a karmic sense you might aswell slash your own throat.

everything is worth something.

if you give it away for free, then it is worthless to you and everybody else.

[crime]

So, if I end up giving away the music I really want to get out there, because no label would release it, that's going to cause more problems than it solves? Keeping stuff on my HD and not letting anyone else hear it because we're trying to maintain some kind of monetary value on music just seems to be sticking your head into the sand to me - Personally, I'm in no way talking about giving EVERYTHING i do away for free - But I have new sounds and ideas I want to get out there - And it's not happening as far as labels are concerned - Maybe you lot who bang on so much about not giving stuff away for free would like to fund a Vinyl label for me to release the most cutting edge stuff I am making, then maybe I wound't need to give it away for free eh? It's not like I'm an unknown and it's not like my trax are shit- it's just that they don't fit into a pidgeon-hole - this is where my problem lies....

[Jay Pace]

Seth's Blog: You don't have the power (http://sethgodin.typepad.com/seths_blog/2009/12/you-dont-have-the-power.html)

[crime]

@ Jay: Word, hit the nail on the head....

[crime]

This is why Live performance is so important now, more important than ever - Do you charge for a DJ Mix or a Live performance recording? and surely, if you're NOT charging for a live performance recording, maybe you should be seeing as it's your own original work? What's the difference between giving away a Live performance recording and an EP for free in real terms? I think we have to see the recorded music side of things as pure promo - and do any of you on here really think you can earn a living from techno music in the 21st century purely from sales of recordings? That is the old model - it's time to move on...

[clubsynthetic]

Music becomes devalued the minute you start selling your choons in tesco and start comprimising and giving comperate ****ers 75% the fee of your choon. The fact that the value of a choon is now the amount of records you can sell of it devalues it.

I agree with Crime. Old model needs new ways. Music is MORE THAN ****ING MONEY.

[DannyBlack]

You lot can give your music away free to me any time. Vinyl preferred :-)

[Microdot]

Exactly.
IF music should be free then why not everything else.
Why pay for shoes, or groceries or anything that some amount of work has been done to produce.
To be really good at music and production takes a lot of time and hard work.
It`s not something you can do in the evening as a little hobby if you are serious about it.
I think a balance between giving stuff out for the fans and also keeping some stuff for purchase or donation is better.
Otherwise everything becomes devalued.


Nail on the fcuking head mate.

Until we completely break down the structures of capitalist culture and rebuild our entire society based on some kind of Anarchist/Communist utopia, we can't afford to devalue our profession/contribution to society by giving our music away for free.
Entertainment is an important part of society as sre Blacksmiths, Greengrocers, Mechanics, Engineers etc.
None of these other dudes are expected to work for free, or are even considering it as a way of combating an economic downturn.

My heart truly bleeds for folk who are struggling to get their music heard but, if truth be told, they are in no worse situation than struggling artists of the previous few decades.

[crime]

Nail on the fcuking head mate.

Until we completely break down the structures of capitalist culture and rebuild our entire society based on some kind of Anarchist/Communist utopia, we can't afford to devalue our profession/contribution to society by giving our music away for free.
Entertainment is an important part of society as sre Blacksmiths, Greengrocers, Mechanics, Engineers etc.
None of these other dudes are expected to work for free, or are even considering it as a way of combating an economic downturn.

My heart truly bleeds for folk who are struggling to get their music heard but, if truth be told, they are in no worse situation than struggling artists of the previous few decades.

The point here though is not about giving everything away for free - of course, if you played live for free, DJed for free, yes, that would devalue the whole thing. Comparing trades like Engineering, Retail and the like and Performing arts is like comparing apples and oranges - people don't need music to live in the same way that people need food & their drains fixed - it's just that now, with so many other people giving their self made music for free the goalposts have been moved somewhat.

Say I have some music, as I do, that no record label currently trading sees as commercially viable to release as the amount of money made wouldn't cover the production costs as the fan base is too small - am I supposed to just leave it on my hard-drive, and not let anyone listen to it for the greater good? Surely you give away recordings of DJ mixes/Live acts as promotion in order to get bookings? How different is that to giving away a few freebies now and then to keep certain styles of music alive which would otherwise not be heard, and ultimately be buried because no-one heard them?

As I said before, I truly believe live performance is where it's at these days, and to be honest, I feel it's the creators of the tools with which to make music who are the real innovators in this day and age...

[The_Laughing_Man]

Entertainment/art is a MASSIVELY important part of culture.
It takes us away from the drudgery of toil, the horro of exchanging your time for money. It is the pleasure we have when we are not working.
I don`t like the way it is becoming devalued, it does seem very wrong.
But at the same time, I don`t like the fact it is commodified.

****ing planet sucks.

Well, struggling artists traditionally, in the uk anyway, went on the dole and got by that way.
haha, I`m not saying it`s the best way, but it is is what it is, and many great bands began that way.
I think people are less patient now, they want everything yesterday, so this is another part of the problem, and so is consumer culture, but blah

[SlavikSvensk]

money is a fact of life. people who labor for our enjoyment deserve to be compensated for it, so they can continue to do so. otherwise they starve, or cut back their time doing those things.

okay, fine...so electronic music's business model has always been more based upon gigs than record sales. but record sales, through established labels, is a tried and true way of getting said gigs. so i just see it as a slippery slope, and one that would likely produce greater and greater concentrated power in the hands of los superstars. too much democratization, too quickly, likely fuels oligarchy.

[crime]

the replies that most people are putting here are the same answers that get posted time and time again on forums broaching this subject.. yawn..

Nobody has answered my 2 main questions here - I'm not saying people shouldn't be paid for their hard work or that all music should be free -
but what are your opinions on:

1. The fact I feel the need to give material away for free as it's the only way it will be heard.

and

2. how different is giving say an EP away for free once in a blue moon different to putting a promotional live set recording online..

[SlavikSvensk]

is anyone saying you shouldn't give EPs away for free from time to time, though? i think most people are just against the general tendency to give everything away for free and totally bypass the existing consumer-label-distributor-artist system.

[crime]

I guess I just feel that the existing model stinks, just seems to me that there are a whole lot of middle men not really doing much but have got themselves in a position where they are scraping off the cream on the back of the musicians' hard work - maybe I should bite the bullet, start a paid for mp3 label, give it 6 months and actually see where the land lies... I just don't like the idea of lining others' pockets whilst getting ripped yet again...

[Microdot]

Say I have some music, as I do, that no record label currently trading sees as commercially viable to release as the amount of money made wouldn't cover the production costs as the fan base is too small - am I supposed to just leave it on my hard-drive, and not let anyone listen to it for the greater good?

Give it away online if you want but, I'd be more inclined to sell it online.
There's tons of sites you can upload your trax to and then sell them, and most pay the same commission as the established download sites, such as Juno and Beatport.

[morbid]

What if my musics so shit even I don't want to listen to it?

What do I do with it then?

[DarkYoung]

So, if I end up giving away the music I really want to get out there, because no label would release it, that's going to cause more problems than it solves? Keeping stuff on my HD and not letting anyone else hear it because we're trying to maintain some kind of monetary value on music just seems to be sticking your head into the sand to me - Personally, I'm in no way talking about giving EVERYTHING i do away for free - But I have new sounds and ideas I want to get out there - And it's not happening as far as labels are concerned - Maybe you lot who bang on so much about not giving stuff away for free would like to fund a Vinyl label for me to release the most cutting edge stuff I am making, then maybe I wound't need to give it away for free eh? It's not like I'm an unknown and it's not like my trax are shit- it's just that they don't fit into a pidgeon-hole - this is where my problem lies....


the law of supply and demand.

if you have something people want to purchase, wheter it's apples or techno they will buy it.

if people arent buying your music, then you have to ask yourself the questions. or as you say it doesn't fit into some pigeon hole you have to accept that it is never going to be a popular commercial venture. but the time and effort you have put into your music, from a karmic sense it has a value and cannot be given away for nothing; if you want to give your music away to people who do not even value your music as much as they will not pay for it in some kind of tokenistic way, then what is the point?
you may aswell make the music for yourself and be happy about it, unless your ego needs the recognition of others?
if you can't market it properly, then you need to work on that aspect of your enterprise.

[BloodStar]

i guess if you feel you dont need to sell your music, but give it free away, then do it. why should you think about other people and what your decision makes to them?? Do they ask you, if you agree with their decisions and their model? would better stick with what you think works best for you.

Old model of selling music doesnt work anymore, those who are smart find new ways, those who are scared of the future trying to keep the old, problem is the old is not working anymore,.

Greeed killed techno.

[crime]

the law of supply and demand.

if you have something people want to purchase, wheter it's apples or techno they will buy it.

if people arent buying your music, then you have to ask yourself the questions. or as you say it doesn't fit into some pigeon hole you have to accept that it is never going to be a popular commercial venture. but the time and effort you have put into your music, from a karmic sense it has a value and cannot be given away for nothing; if you want to give your music away to people who do not even value your music as much as they will not pay for it in some kind of tokenistic way, then what is the point?
you may aswell make the music for yourself and be happy about it, unless your ego needs the recognition of others?
if you can't market it properly, then you need to work on that aspect of your enterprise.

So- in a nutshell- music is only worth what people are prepared to pay for it - but if you can't sell it you can't give it away, because then you are only doing it to massage your own ego?

maybe I do need to work on my marketing eh? jesus...

[rhythmtech]

i guess if you feel you dont need to sell your music, but give it free away, then do it. why should you think about other people and what your decision makes to them?? Do they ask you, if you agree with their decisions and their model? would better stick with what you think works best for you.


+1

its your music and your decision what to do with it.

if i make a sandwich and i want to give it to someone must i wait for others opinions on whether its ok to do it? fcuk that, its my sandwich and ill do whatever i please with it.

mmm.. sandwich... on second thoughts ill eat it myself :lol:

[DarkYoung]

So- in a nutshell- music is only worth what people are prepared to pay for it - but if you can't sell it you can't give it away, because then you are only doing it to massage your own ego?

maybe I do need to work on my marketing eh? jesus...


lol. a good artist is never recognised in his lifetime.

[The_Laughing_Man]

the law of supply and demand.

if you have something people want to purchase, wheter it's apples or techno they will buy it.

if people arent buying your music, then you have to ask yourself the questions. or as you say it doesn't fit into some pigeon hole you have to accept that it is never going to be a popular commercial venture. but the time and effort you have put into your music, from a karmic sense it has a value and cannot be given away for nothing; if you want to give your music away to people who do not even value your music as much as they will not pay for it in some kind of tokenistic way, then what is the point?
you may aswell make the music for yourself and be happy about it, unless your ego needs the recognition of others?
if you can't market it properly, then you need to work on that aspect of your enterprise.
what if loads of people ares stealing it and no one is buying it?

though I do agree partly in the drive of what you say

[The_Laughing_Man]

lol. a good artist is never recognised in his lifetime.

the thing with techno is that it is transient in nature.
I would say even more transient now, a good tune isn`t so important as a good tool that can be fitted in to 30 seconds-1 minute of a mix.
As mixing becomes easier with technology DJ`s are seeming to feel like they should be doing more and more, more tunes, more mixing etc, so spending ages making a tune that is looked at as a tool anyway, is a bit odd.
Is there place for art in techno?
It`s a funny old game techno, I`m starting to get very confused by it.

[clubsynthetic]

Why make music for anyone else apart form yourself? Sharing it is just a bonus. Gratitude is an even bigger bonus.

[DarkYoung]

what if loads of people are stealing it and no one is buying it?

though I do agree partly in the drive of what you say

i think by and large people have integrity.
it's not people stealing the music, this is a problem with marketing.

there needs to be a good market model. this is what is failing people at the moment.

if that has to be the acid techno or wonky section of Tesco Entertainment so be it.

i think alot of it is, simply that there isn't much demand, there is a much smaller market, than 5 or 10 years ago even.

techno is a small, niche market. unfortunately if you want your more experimental music to be bought, you have to be mainstream in some way.

do a duo with Alex Reid and Jordan that type of thing.

[DarkYoung]

Why make music for anyone else apart form yourself? Sharing it is just a bonus. Gratitude is an even bigger bonus.
well of course i agree.

a lot of music i do get is shared for nothing from people i know on here, force, scott grey etc on here or on msn etc, i'm sure other people have similar arrangements.
a lot of stuff is on youtube/myspace etc

if you want to share or 'give away for nothing' as is being argued here, i'm not sure that this will still meet what it is you are are wanting.

more bookings or publicity or customers or whatever.

[The_Laughing_Man]

i think by and large people have integrity.
it's not people stealing the music, this is a problem with marketing.




oh no, people are stealing the music, you only have to run a label and know about 0day to see this.
It`s not the whole of the issue, but it is certainly the issue.
I was on a forum today talking about the new massive attack album that isn`t even out yet, and everyone was talking about it as they had already got their bootlegs from 0day.

Marketing isn`t really the issue either, not exactly. I mean sure you can promote more etc, but the issue is more complex.

[DarkYoung]

oh no, people are stealing the music, you only have to run a label and know about 0day to see this.
It`s not the whole of the issue, but it is certainly the issue.
I was on a forum today talking about the new massive attack album that isn`t even out yet, and everyone was talking about it as they had already got their bootlegs from 0day.

Marketing isn`t really the issue either, not exactly. I mean sure you can promote more etc, but the issue is more complex.
what is oday??

so the strategy to beat the thieves is to say well you can have it for free now anyway?
thieves being the target audience?

[The_Laughing_Man]

no

[vegim]

20 % selled
80% shared.
(torrents, rapidshare, soulseek)

Of course I am giving my music for free to that 80%.

[Microdot]

+1

its your music and your decision what to do with it.

if i make a sandwich and i want to give it to someone must i wait for others opinions on whether its ok to do it? fcuk that, its my sandwich and ill do whatever i please with it.

mmm.. sandwich... on second thoughts ill eat it myself :lol:

fcuk giving your sandwiches away dude.
If you give your shitty butties away for free, people might be less inclined to pay money for my gourmet sandwiches.

[crime]

i think by and large people have integrity.
it's not people stealing the music, this is a problem with marketing.

there needs to be a good market model. this is what is failing people at the moment.

if that has to be the acid techno or wonky section of Tesco Entertainment so be it.

This is very funny.. :D




i think alot of it is, simply that there isn't much demand, there is a much smaller market, than 5 or 10 years ago even.

techno is a small, niche market. unfortunately if you want your more experimental music to be bought, you have to be mainstream in some way.

do a duo with Alex Reid and Jordan that type of thing.

Erm- this was my original point - if it gets to the point where there isn't the demand for certain styles of music, aside from the occasional very limited pressing of the occasional thing, then why not share what music you have - not because you want to feel like the big dick or you expect a load of DJ gigs, but because maybe you think "I like this music I made, maybe someone else will too".

I very much doubt I'd ever give all of my music away for free as I have options to release stuff through labels, the trouble is, these labels want a very specific sound, which they can MARKET easily i.e. it sounds more like a lot of other stuff around.

I started my ### project as I was into stuff like Audion & James T Cotton, along with Relief records and so was making some slower stuff that was more like that, and the bonus was be that I still get to release the occasional 12 on vinyl - as this is the kind of stuff that labels think = sales

But I still make left-field techno stuff but no label seems to be interested in that kind of stuff unless it's a complete parody of itself (i.e. cliched "wonky" techno) - so what is wrong with me giving that stuff away for free just to get it out there? It's not that I feel the need to prove anything, just I feel that people might like that stuff (maybe I'm very wrong and actually they want to be listening to minimalbreakwonkbeat or whatever the latest trend is this week!)

People complain that everything sounds the same, but the moment you try something different, it becomes very difficult to get it out there - and then I'm told it's all about MARKETING? jesus

seems to me that the MARKETING is the very problem, why should we have to put music in convenient little boxes just to shift units? if you're gonna do that then why don't you just go and make some Donk or happy hardcore or whatever- that's far more likely to "shift units"

whatever happened to the love for music? And sharing that with others? why does it have to be all about money?

Anyway, I'm currently thinking that I like the idea of spreading my bets on this one- some freebies now and then, a paid for digital label, the ### stuff and very occasionally a limited to 50 copies coloured vinyl freaky techno ep with gatefold sleeve with some good art on there - give the collectors a piece to pick up...

[davethedrummer]

I have to say that of all the people on the board I'm surprised to hear you say
"why does it always have to be about money" the most Mark.

I mean, Yeah I'm with you, it makes me feel the same too.
exasperated.
but still, come on, it IS about money
it's ALWAYS been about money.
even when it's FREE it's about the fact that it's not about the money
which means indirectly it IS about the money.

there is no way out.

It's really a question of just doing what you want right now isn't it, and sod everything else?

for most people the "marketing" side of selling music has become so intense that it's a no-go
there's not enough money for you to give up yer day job and slug it out on the internet with a load of corporate music companies who've got all the cash in the world
or bash heads with a load of 20 somethings who are doing music technology degrees and have all the time in the world

so sod it
give it away and get gigs instead?
and do a day job to feed the family, seems like the only way out right now.

anyone need a new website ?

[DarkYoung]

I have to say that of all the people on the board I'm surprised to hear you say
"why does it always have to be about money" the most Mark.

I mean, Yeah I'm with you, it makes me feel the same too.
exasperated.
but still, come on, it IS about money
it's ALWAYS been about money.
even when it's FREE it's about the fact that it's not about the money
which means indirectly it IS about the money.

there is no way out.

It's really a question of just doing what you want right now isn't it, and sod everything else?

for most people the "marketing" side of selling music has become so intense that it's a no-go
there's not enough money for you to give up yer day job and slug it out on the internet with a load of corporate music companies who've got all the cash in the world
or bash heads with a load of 20 somethings who are doing music technology degrees and have all the time in the world

so sod it
give it away and get gigs instead?
and do a day job to feed the family, seems like the only way out right now.

anyone need a new website ?

ok can you put up your unreleased acid techno then please?

[rhythmtech]

fcuk giving your sandwiches away dude.
If you give your shitty butties away for free, people might be less inclined to pay money for my gourmet sandwiches.

i stopped making sandwiches a long time ago jon. now i just do the presentation for other people who've already made them.

and if you cant sell your gourmet sandwiches then maybe your cooking style is out of fashion... :lol:

im hungry now.

[crime]

I have to say that of all the people on the board I'm surprised to hear you say
"why does it always have to be about money" the most Mark.

I mean, Yeah I'm with you, it makes me feel the same too.
exasperated.
but still, come on, it IS about money
it's ALWAYS been about money.
even when it's FREE it's about the fact that it's not about the money
which means indirectly it IS about the money.

there is no way out.

It's really a question of just doing what you want right now isn't it, and sod everything else?

for most people the "marketing" side of selling music has become so intense that it's a no-go
there's not enough money for you to give up yer day job and slug it out on the internet with a load of corporate music companies who've got all the cash in the world
or bash heads with a load of 20 somethings who are doing music technology degrees and have all the time in the world

so sod it
give it away and get gigs instead?
and do a day job to feed the family, seems like the only way out right now.

anyone need a new website ?

I got a lot happier about life once I got a day job - and I found the standard of my music (IMO) got better too - Although I make a lot less than I used to.

The marketing thing is depressing- seems like in many ways it ends up being more about that than the music itself- this is why I get to the point where I think "**** it- just give it away for free and bypass all that bullshit- I can make the money on the gigs".. I would sell mp3s from my website if I could sell more than 20 downloads - we did try before with the digital version of the kitty corner release- sold about 3 or 400 of the vinyl- but 20 downloads- easier to get on soulseek I guess..

[DarkYoung]

I got a lot happier about life once I got a day job - and I found the standard of my music (IMO) got better too - Although I make a lot less than I used to.

The marketing thing is depressing- seems like in many ways it ends up being more about that than the music itself- this is why I get to the point where I think "**** it- just give it away for free and bypass all that bullshit- I can make the money on the gigs".. I would sell mp3s from my website if I could sell more than 20 downloads - we did try before with the digital version of the kitty corner release- sold about 3 or 400 of the vinyl- but 20 downloads- easier to get on soulseek I guess..


i've never understood why you can't all work together in some kind of cooperative to make it work somehow?
i mean on this site there are the most intelligent/creative people in the world.
a lot of people here are also capitalist corporate boys, who know how the system works.
quit whining and do something about it.
i figure u enjoy moaning.

[Microdot]

i stopped making sandwiches a long time ago jon. now i just do the presentation for other people who've already made them.

and if you cant sell your gourmet sandwiches then maybe your cooking style is out of fashion... :lol:

im hungry now.

yeah, maybe my tuna's a bit dated these days.

[davethedrummer]

i've never understood why you can't all work together in some kind of cooperative to make it work somehow?
I mean on this site there are the most intelligent/creative people in the world.
A lot of people here are also capitalist corporate boys, who know how the system works.
Quit whining and do something about it.
I figure u enjoy moaning.

i love moaning!

[Winds]

+1

if i make a sandwich and i want to give it to someone must i wait for others opinions on whether its ok to do it? fcuk that, its my sandwich and ill do whatever i please with it.

mmm.. sandwich... on second thoughts ill eat it myself :lol:

:lol:

[king aaron]

I want some free music but I don't want to steal it or download it illegally, who are some singers who give away their music for free? Like they choose to give it away and want people to download it?

[DannyBlack]

Why not send them an email. "Dear sirs, I can has musicz plz?"

[scott_robinson]

I think no one has answered because there are not many 'singers' writing techno.

You can feel free to download this live set of mine King Aaron scottrobinson - Scott Robinson - Ugly Funk 05-03-99 - SoundCloud (http://soundcloud.com/user2739441/scott-uglyfunk-5-3-99) but I am sorry I
am not a singer.

[MITA]

give it away give ti away give it away now!

[clubsynthetic]

You can feel free to download this live set of mine King Aaron scottrobinson - Scott Robinson - Ugly Funk 05-03-99 - SoundCloud (http://soundcloud.com/user2739441/scott-uglyfunk-5-3-99) but I am sorry I
am not a singer.

Liking this lots!

[The_Laughing_Man]

EMI records 1 billion in debt!!!!!

[DannyBlack]

YouTube - EMI-SEX PISTOLS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjbie1O1jxc)





hahahahaha f*ck em.

[teknonotice]

Good thread Henry..And some good points.

Unfor piracy will never end and only get worse so why try and sell it when you can get it for free?

As you’re so well known you’re Return on time and cash investment is getting more international and local bookings, selling more vinyl to the hardcore vinyl lovers, travelling to cool places to play whilst increasing your profile and exposure/following. Then from a central web site to offer both paid for and free downloads. The free downloads could be a lower bit rate for example, or cut half way through for 5 seconds. You could however also furnish your loyal following with special edition high res wavs of certain, new and old tracks. Give people the choice – they feel empowered slightly more. Explain to your fans that they now have a choice.

You could also compliment this with a global digital distribution deal similar to what Teknonotice Digital offer and you have all bases covered. Try and use Facebook, twitter and a blog to communicate to fans about new releases and freebies/mixes/live sets...(a lot of work I may add) and see what happens.

Most unknowns are using the net to try and get more gigs. As you’re a household name in techno you should be trying to get more gigs and then promoting to the crowd to buy your stuff on the net.

As a digital label owner and a producer that releases my own non techno music it’s very interesting. IMO the best of both worlds is where it’s at - a balancing act. Perhaps it also depends on the demographic of the fan/listener.

If it’s a fellow DJ/producer that commercially and economically benefits from playing your music should they pay or get for free?

If it’s a loyal fan that has followed you since the early days, spent cash on many entrance fees/party donation fee/bar/merchandise/your Vinyl should they pay or get it for free?

2 years ago I hooked up with tunecore.com to release my own guitar based indie, made in my bedroom style music. I had to pay about 40$ to upload 2 albums. The music then went live in itunes, amazon etc etc. As music was more of a personal release for me I had never intended to try and sell it. I also, at this time wasn't really sharing it with anyone. The first 3 months were really quiet and sold about 4 copies. Along the way I was learning about new technology, web programming and music distribution online, simply as a hobby or interest. Then I started using amiestreet.com which works on a basis that once enough people download the free version it becomes paid for, and goes up in price the more you sell. This was a great method and online store with a community that you could connect with. Lots time was spent talking to other site members and sharing my music via face book. This worked well and my free music quickly became paid for music. 1 track “strength” even made top 50. Return on time and investment was shite however I felt satisfied Id found a channel to get heard and generate feedback – which as a musician is really all I want. It’s great when people comment, good or bad as it helps you develop.

I was also marveled at the way one can use technology so quickly to promote and sell music – it still fascinates me. Long story short on the back of a lot of hard work I was signed by Believe digital last year to release my music. Today I have the upmost confidence to give people the choice whether they want to buy it or download for free. I have been promoting my music heavily using social media and giving away the high res wav copy. This has had a great effect in fans and also has improved sales. Some have turned round and said “no its ok I’ll buy it”

Perhaps such a “choice” also instills more trust in your punters/following.

If digital is so widely accessible through the torrent sites does it make any difference? I still think giving the listener a choice is best.

Should the whole scene give the listener a choice? Radiohead and Trent Reznor used this strategy well.

As Morbid rightly said giving it away for free helps you build a database ("enter your email and d/l my latest track") that you can then promote to, but will this help sales? How many emails do people get every day and ignore. Or even if they read will they buy or go to Pirate bay?

If digital sales make no money is there any point in distributing too many online stores? Perhaps just from your own web site with a data capture.

From a point of view of my dance music orientated label “Teknonotice Digital” its hard work making any return on time or cash investment. It’s so easy to get lost in all the other labels that are out there. It’s also tough working with online stores who insist you make x amount before you get paid perhaps a third of the sales price.

Thus said the last 3 months sales have picked up simply because we are in so many online stores now through the Believe digital deal. Law of averages in full effect. Well that and a bit of luck I guess. We also notice that the more promoting we do the better sales we get. This may sound obvious however I refer to full time job hours to carry out the promotion effectively and successfully.


I could go on but I’m ranting again..


Peace, see you in Malta next week Mr. Drummer!! Bring the Hydraulix if you would, getting tired of minimal (and seeing as joris voorn is also playing would like some proper stuff!!)

[Craig_Lea]

... I'm now thinking about just giving away my music for free.

An interesting experiment could be to try out what the developers of World of Goo did.
For a week or so, they just let people pay what they want, starting from $0.01
You could even extend it to start from free.

2D Boy: I love you, 2D Boy! Blog Archive Pay-What-You-Want Birthday Sale Results (http://2dboy.com/2009/10/19/birthday-sale-results/)

[teknonotice]

PS: you can d/l or buy my music from Christopher Knight, Music, Video and all things audio visual (http://www.intricate-arts.com)

[scott_robinson]

The point is if people don't want to download something they won't.

Example. I put a liveset up the other day and it had maybe 5 downloads from here and that was free. So it's not down to weather a track is free or not. I am sure if it had been Dave the Drummer there would have been 500 downloads.

This is interesting. Even when stuff is free it doesn't mean people will download it. You need to be established for people to be interested. To do that you need fans to get fans you need to work hard to either get gigs or release records. If you are an unknown there is not much chance of that these days and if you don't have a tune or 2 out then you wont get booked.

Having gone over this in my mind last night I was wondering if anyone would be interested in an experiment.

I suggest we take an established artist and an unheard of artist and make people pay a reduced amount, say 1 euro, for the established artist and offer the unheard of artists track for free. Then count downloads up and gather some stats.

I think the established artist will still get more downloads despite the fact the people have to pay because people don't give a crap about unheard-of's but offer a track by a well established name for a bargain Euro and that artist will still win.

So I will offer a track for free, maybe a few of us can then all we need is an establish artist to step forward and offer up a track.

Does this sound stupid or interesting?

[teknonotice]

interesting idea scott..what format are we talking?

I got some quality techno released on my label which Henry himself has said is good and others lap up..

YouTube - Ian Zahn No admittance Promo Video 001 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UVX_NkFu-U)

[scott_robinson]

well I guess MP3 would be fair to both parties. Glad you thought it was an interesting idea.

[BloodStar]

good idea, but nothing changes,tho. it will be on illegal downlaods sites next day, and not many people will pay for it.

why should they pay you 1 euro for 5tracks if they like just known artist and not interested about other 4tunes. when they go to any online store, they can buy a tune for almost same money, so where is the difference?

[scott_robinson]

Sure BloodStar I hear you but I meant an established artist in techno.

It is a lot harder to find techno music torrents. By the time it gets up the experiment will be over, and we will have stats.

Anyway it was just an idea, I get what you are saying.

[The_Laughing_Man]

YouTube - EMI-SEX PISTOLS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjbie1O1jxc)





hahahahaha f*ck em.


I think you miss the point slightly.
Of course EMI are poop.
The point is they have the power to influence, to essentially make people buy music by using repition based suggestion (radio play, adverts etc) and a lot of NLP techniques. These techniques are still working, people are still getting the music in droves. They just aren`t paying.
The most effective methods of selling music, and even THEY can`t make a profit.

Good riddance etc, but also, bloody hell!

[The_Laughing_Man]

It is a lot harder to find techno music torrents.

Not really, I know loads of people who are getting flacs and mp3`s ripped from vinyl on the day of release, or even before release from promo ripps via 0day, soulseek etc.
There is like a competative culture in the ripping community to be the first to get it online and some of the Scene releasers are really organised.

[DannyBlack]

I think you miss the point slightly.
Of course EMI are poop.
The point is they have the power to influence, to essentially make people buy music by using repition based suggestion (radio play, adverts etc) and a lot of NLP techniques. These techniques are still working, people are still getting the music in droves. They just aren`t paying.
The most effective methods of selling music, and even THEY can`t make a profit.

Good riddance etc, but also, bloody hell!


Ah i see what you mean. Yeah the NLP that these companies use is quite blindingly good.

That's why the number of charity singles have increased I think. What is one way to guarantee reciprocity? A cause to donate too. "These poor sods have no legs, buy the x-factors new single 'legs for nothing, limbs for free' and we will donate a fraction to buying them 2x4's"...

[teknonotice]

Malta love it hard YouTube - maltateknoauthorit's Channel (http://www.youtube.com/maltateknoauthorit#p/a/u/0/zv9N5bYM330)


this was last weeeknd at Liquid a small underground club ...with turbosound I may add

Sky club much bigger..elevated DJ booth, proper!!

[clubsynthetic]

Why not just start a website, and charge 20p each track in (an increasing) wav library? If other good artists want on it split it 50-50 with them. Making it a better deal for the arist direct.

Despite folk copying and illegally downloading them, i think there would be enough folk in the market that would be respect to the music and pay for it and also because they are not getting shafted by some corperate ****er. A bit easier if you are, say, an established label. Cut out all the middle men and undercut them. Obviously i'm not sure about website costs and matenence, bandwidth, etc. If you sold 1000 downloads worldwide of all tracks/artists how far would that money take you on your website?

WAVs for 20p. It would sound ultra tempting for me..

[Methodixxx]

yeah, maybe my tuna's a bit dated these days.

:lol:

[gustavo]

Waves for 20p seems completely unrealistic to me in the End labels would Pay to sell music

1 euro per wave would be an Excellent price

[Igneous]

If you can afford to give your music away then do it & let the world sort its self out.

I don't think free music is devalued, especial if it makes me want to dance or stirs my emotions.

[The_Laughing_Man]

If you can afford to give your music away then do it & let the world sort its self out.

I don't think free music is devalued, especial if it makes me want to dance or stirs my emotions.

Ok I kinda agree in a way.
But then what are DJ`s getting payed for?
Playing other peoples music?
WHy should they get paid, for only playing it? Which took 5 mins to download, when the maker could have taken a week or two to perfect the tune?

As long as the DJ`s are getting paid, the bar staff are getting paid, the soundsystem guys are getting paid, the door staff are getting paid etc then there is a so called industry and the people providing the music that the entire scene is built upon should also get their piece of bread.

I say again why pay for anything? why just stop at music?
We live in a capitalist world.

[DannyBlack]

DJ's get paid? :lol:

[DarkYoung]

DJ's get paid? :lol:


yes mate, depends on:

how well you know the promoter X
how ****ing inanely stupid he is

[Igneous]

Ok I kinda agree in a way.
But then what are DJ`s getting payed for?
Playing other peoples music?
WHy should they get paid, for only playing it? Which took 5 mins to download, when the maker could have taken a week or two to perfect the tune?

As long as the DJ`s are getting paid, the bar staff are getting paid, the soundsystem guys are getting paid, the door staff are getting paid etc then there is a so called industry and the people providing the music that the entire scene is built upon should also get their piece of bread.

I say again why pay for anything? why just stop at music?
We live in a capitalist world.

I guess I see music as something different to most products & services.

[Mindful]

Ok I kinda agree in a way.
But then what are DJ`s getting payed for?
Playing other peoples music?
WHy should they get paid, for only playing it? Which took 5 mins to download, when the maker could have taken a week or two to perfect the tune?

As long as the DJ`s are getting paid, the bar staff are getting paid, the soundsystem guys are getting paid, the door staff are getting paid etc then there is a so called industry and the people providing the music that the entire scene is built upon should also get their piece of bread.

I say again why pay for anything? why just stop at music?
We live in a capitalist world.

I give quite a bit of my music away for free (free net labels etc), I really don't mind if I'm happy with the music that I'm sharing. The reason I don't mind this so much is because it doesn't feel like anybody is making money from me (although of course somebody is) so if they are not getting paid from my work then I dont mind not getting paid for it (for now)

Your point is a great one though. In a case where everybody but the actual artist who wrote the music is getting paid (because of that music) that kind of blows dog shit big time.
Like you say the entire scene is built upon this music so for the actual source of all this to be the only one not getting a slice is quite bizarre ... even the cows that McDonald's get their beef from get fed... makes me kind of feel lower than a pre slaughtered hamburger