About Subbass?

[Orange]

How low do you go? Would anyone like to u/l a loop of what they consider to be sub-bass. I can get a really low sub-bass off an sh 101 by pushing up the rez and closing the filter (or somrthing like that), but the sound that comes out is so low it is almost like pumping air, and nothing more, but I think this is, perhaps, too low beyond the idea of subbass that is often discussed here. Jungle tracks also have very low basslines, but I don't think that is what is being discussed here either. I could experiment, but I would be guessing, and I know that's cool too, but I want to understand exactly what you, and others, are talking about when discussing the idea of subbass on BOA. I don't want to hope I'm on the same page.
As words describing sounds can only really communicate an idea between two people clearly so long as both people have corresponding ideas to the words being used, I would be greatful if anyone would u/l a loop or two of a subbass only. Then, I can have a listen and be on the same page as you and others where this discussion emerges on the board, or where I explore the archives availiable here. Thanks for any help.

Orange

[EmotionComplex]

its important you actually have the facilities to hear sub bass, i.e a speaker capable of producing the whole spectrum of the lower end but as far a i know sub bass is below 70-100Hz but 20Hz and below is unhearable by the human ear

if youve got wavelab or an analyser plug in you can check your bass's too see what freq's there taking up, thats a good way to get control of the layers you cant hear and see were sound is sitting

[Orange]

Yeah, concerning the sound system, I may not have the proper speakers required to identify the subbass sound. That hurts.
I'll have a search and see if I have one of those analyzer plugs you mentioned. Thanks

[lunatrick]

what I'd like to know is how the D&B boys can release tracks with bass on them that sounds like sub bass, and yet you can more or less hear it on a transistor radio?

[DJZeMig_L]

A lot of bass is more on the ears than on the body... most bass is above 80 hz... think of plug ins like maxxbass...

Most systems in clubs won't be able 2 play anything below 50-40 hz... so i generally do a cut below that (about 8-10 db), this way u get more punch from the bass that actually translates! :)

I have come across some textbook by the big mastering buys that say it's best 2 monitor & get the bass working on a normal full range nearfield that with a sub 'cause it's extremly hard 2 tune it right!


Z

[Orange]

So, sub bass, in production discussion, is any bass between 40hz-80hz? And, if so, do any producers just loop this frequecy, excluding the higher and lower ranges? Or is it more discussion of a low-end enhancement of the bass that is already present? Thanx again Ze and all.

[DJZeMig_L]

I would thing below 50 is just a case o killing it a bit. Then u work on what really translates on a club 50-150... make sweet, pumping and powerfull! :)

Z

[audioinjection]

but not all techno is made to play in clubs ;)

[DJZeMig_L]

absolutly right!! Let me know if u find any speaker that play bellow 40 Hz ;)

Z

[audioinjection]

well, if you have really good monitors they play even 20 hz, but most humans wont be able to hear it, maybe just feel it ;)

[Antinoise]

It’s a misconception that all the killer bass needs to be as low and you can go. In fact most of the bass that really moves tracks is closer to 100k+ rather than 40k. As a rule, if the bass is making the cone move then it’s not right. Only the kick should move the cone. (That obviously has to do with dB's as well)

[DJZeMig_L]

audioinj. I see what u r coming at m8, but indeed there are very few monitors that will REALLy reproduce anything bellow 40 Hz... mind u I can remember a single 1 that will even go as low as 35 hz... if the do then it will probably totally misleading 4 mixing... on another tip if u do music conting on these very low freq. then u have 2 consider that very few people will have a setup allowing them 2 Feel that music ... and I'm saying feel because at that range u can almost go as far as 2 say that u don't hear it, u feel it! :cool:

Z

[faktor-x]

I usually cut everything below 40Hz (-inf dB). When you cut something away you affect other frequencies. In this case you hear more bass, just the contrary from what you did.

A lot of unhearable low sounds just gives a lot of work to amplifier. If you take that away, your amplifier(and the amplifier in the club, etc.) has more power to push the remaining frequencies.

I noticed that a lot of new stuff from The Advent is heavily cut on the low range(probably up from 60-80Hz). When I play them out, it can go really loud without the sound system falling apart. I guess it's ok for tunes that don't relly on heavy bassline action.

[DJZeMig_L]

there is a little something u have 2 pay attention... I don't REMOVE evething bellow 40hz e "tame" them with a small cut of around 8-10 db.. which will get a small cut of up to 3-4db max around 50-60 hz...

If this proves 2 b wrong the master house can always bring it back in 'cause I didn't remove it!

Z

[detfella]

I find it rock-hard to master anything in the bass department cos i've got dodgy hifi speakers, I'm hoping when i get my tracks mastered then I'll be able to make it perfect.

Also at the moment i'm making a vst plug-in and that will have a cut-off frequency of 30Hz (needs to be specified), so maybe quite a few digital synths cut off around this point. Looking at what Ze says, it doesnt look like even clubs reproduce frequencies below 40, but it's always nice to feel that bass.

[Basil Rush]

The bad ass Genelec's will go down to 19hz, the 1032As and the 824s do about 39Hz. Turbosound rigs go down to between 35 and 50 hz or there abouts.

Here's what I reckon on the bass debate ... sometimes it's very useful to find the fundamental of the lowest bass note you are using (use a sine wave on a nice synth like an access virus to do this), play the low note on your sine wave, find the frequency by moving a hi pass filter up till you hear it start to get quieter then move it back down a couple of Hz. Use this filter on the bass sound for maximum clarity.

Try Ze MigL's 10db low shelf cut on the kick drum.

[DJZeMig_L]

Basil, takes the crown as always... :clap: this has been very much debated over here, and mind u there is no 1 way only of doing things...

Anyways also on the bass (and I'm just talking bass not the kick)... use a little bit of a plug in called maxxbass.. this adds a synthesized harmonic 2 the fundamental ... thus pushing yer bassline into a more hearable range, this way it will sound "loud" and defined in yer mix with out u having 2 swamp the all thing with extreme low freq eq gain!

PS - if u lower the amount of "treble" u get the feeling of more bass7 phatness!

Z

[Basil Rush]

You can use MaxBass to make things lower than they were too, i'm in two minds about the plugin tho, it does seem to make things fuzzier.

[DJZeMig_L]

yep it does sound "fake" that's why I try to do a little a-b testing so that U about the same amount of perceived loudness by swapping a little bit of the original sound by the maxbass one... I generally use it with care!

Z

[Basil Rush]

Yeah, I definitely had a period where i went overboard with it ... use it mostly for making things deeper and sometimes had a bit too much sub going on really, moving a lot of air...

[DJZeMig_L]

:oops: . ... everytime I hear a certain remix I did I always feel like :doh: :oops: .... ;)


Z

[Komplex]

:oops: . ... everytime I hear a certain remix I did I always feel like :doh: :oops: .... ;)


Z

Yeah I know the one mate!

(just kidding) ;)

[DJZeMig_L]

u wan*er :P eheheh ;)

Z

[Dustin Zahn]

I use the **** out of maxxbass. So you say its cool to do a slight cut below 40hz? I always cut below 20hz and above 17,000 but never knew about stuff below 40ish.

[DJZeMig_L]

if u wanna play it safe keep it bellow 32 khz... but remember use a low shelf cut don't use a hpf! ;) ... btw cubase eq is preatty helpless 4 this ... use waves linear phase eq! ;)

Z

[DJZeMig_L]

PS - i'm not so sure cutting above 18khz is a good thing....


Basil please enligthen us please :love:


Z

[Basil Rush]

I wouldn't ... it's already cut at 22 something anyway 'cause of the nyquest frequency thing or something so I don't see what cutting at 18k gives you really apart from a duller track?

[DJZeMig_L]

I guess it's on the account that 90% (if not more) have very little perception above 15-16 Khz, but I am with ya... I've always heard people say that if u r gonna go 2 vinyl then u should master/ produce at 48 Khz! So that would bring the Nyquist around 48 Khz... but has there are no perfect filters, it might have some dumping down to something like almost 20 Khz.. so it is considered 2 b almost perfect!

I can understand that cutting a bit on the sub 50 can have very apparent results but I can't really imagine/ hear any results 2 the cutting u'r doing dustin! ?


Is there any particular reason/ advantage that some1 explained 2 ya about this.

Z

[Dustin Zahn]

Not entirely, I've just heard from a few different sources to cut above the 17,000hz range as well. Maybe it's time for me to call up the mastering plant and see what the truth is. :)

Thanks for your help.

It's weird though, when I do cut everything below 22hz in my tracks (in real time) it drastically changes the whole groove of the track...maybe my compression and limiting are set up funny. So I usually just do it afterwords.

[DJZeMig_L]

U have 2 take into account the intermodular relationship of freq. and internal micro-dynamics m8.

Remeber that when u cut the bass in a track u ain't just taming the bass u are also "adding highs and mid-range", or at least that's how our ears take it...

Z