technicians vs musicians in the techno world

[blistanbul]

ok obviously there are mainly (amongst good artist) two types of artist:

one who can play traditional instruments, and the other more skilled with softwares, programming etc.

who do you think in techno and in electronic music fits one of these two categories?

and which do you prefer?

i think aphex twin is rare that he fits both.

people like adam beyer, marco nastic, david the drummer more so in the programming side.

musical wise compuphonic, squarepusher, deadmu5 and vitalic.

[qUE]

Not a particularly very good question, because they both fit Techno music.

If a musician doesn't have the technical skill to record and edit down music, then a studio technician is normally on hand.

If a studio technician can't play an instrument and needs one played for whatever reason, then session players are on hand.

It's only when you get into the science of sound (psycho, dynamics, harmonics, micro timing, etc.) that musicians aren't particularly good.

And visa versa, technical peeps generally not that great at emotiveness through notation and use of orchestral layouts (part of advanced music theory).

Truth is though, neither can learn about how to produce Techno from a book or education. That part is a personal journey, probably with the aid of substances and a deep passion and sense for the genre imho :)

[rhythmtech]

people like adam beyer, david the drummer more so in the programming side.



i'd have to disagree there. listen to earlier beyer releases. they're full of immense musicality. code red anybody?

DTD is a musician thru and thru aswell. the guy was playing in bands long before making techno

[blistanbul]

i think threads like these are prime for healthy debate que.

i would like more contribution from members and artists here alike.

[rhythmtech]

i would like more contribution from members and artists here alike.

+1

be nice to be able to debate it without descending into madness :yup:

[BRADLEE]

I've been making music for some time now, and I am my own worst enemy, my own best student, and sometimes even my own teacher.....

I can't say that I have always been the greatest engineer, it takes a long time to allow your ears to become tuned to a sound which is natural and a sound which is sometimes artificial...however it must always be emotional in order to support what the beings spirit is feeling. Music is a journey....definitely a learning process as is with any form of art. And again even after so long I am still developing day by day...Just as we do as people the same comes with our art forms. Life brings us twists and turns, but it's how we hang around these corners which is important. If you feel it in your spirit, then you must follow it.

Some people really like what I do, and some people dont...but that is what art is about. Any way, shape, or form (even a wave form for that matter). I know I have been a bit off topic, but my main point is really that any artist must grow into their artform. It doesn't happen with a snap of the fingers, or the flick of a switch...it's all about the natural progression of time, timing, and persistance.

Now who are some of my favorites and for which reasons....Musically speaking I could comment, but how to know what they do unless directly by their sides...it's always questionable. Let your ears guide you to what you enjoy, if it's not your bag, then put it aside for someone else. And if you aspire to make great art of any kind, keep reaching for it. Try hard, try often, and try again over and over. All my best from the other side.

BL

[papllon]

and which do you prefer?

i think aphex twin is rare that he fits both.




Aphex is, in his words, a self-confessed obsessive programmer with absolutely no musical knowledge at all... all the conventional instruments ( strings etc ) are programmed. Druqks was mainly made with loads of synths, Max/Msp, etc... just because he's no musician does not mean the guy isn't an absolute genius ( in my book anyway )!!!!

Cheers

[blistanbul]

i knew aphex built his own gear etc, but you can't tell me selected ambient works 85-92 and richard d james albums didn't have any musicianship?

[MARK ANXIOUS]

i knew aphex built his own gear

I actually heard somewhere recently that this was all a bit of a con. Not sure how true it is, but its not hard to imagine he could have done this for 'show' on stage and many of us fell for it... That whole 'mad scientist' image fits beautifully with his music eh ;)

That's not to say he's not a genius... one of the biggest influences in my life musically ever... :cool2:

[MARK ANXIOUS]

but back to the debate at hand.. can electronic music ever really be musical in the true 'playing an instrument' sense of the word? it is after all, all pre-recorded music - you can correct the mistakes...

however that's not to say people who make electronic music arent musical. it's just a slightly different musicality to the traditional sense of the word...

for me, the people who make the best music consistently are the most musical.. however, to be able to deliver this, you also have to know a great deal of musical science - which for electronic music is alot to do with physics and maths - waves, synthesis, frequency relationships etc.. without this, you're just not going to be able to consistently express your musicality through electronics... unless you employ an engineer of course - but in my book that's cheating lol ;)

[rhythmtech]

unless you employ an engineer of course - but in my book that's cheating lol ;)

dont be saying that... cause in my book thats my wages :laughing2::laughing2:

[basslinejunkie]

sorry,but i think its a bit of a daft question to be honest. in order to be an affecive musican you have to be a really good technician. weather thats manipulating a violin,a piano or computer software is irrelevant.

[clubsynthetic]

but back to the debate at hand.. can electronic music ever really be musical in the true 'playing an instrument' sense of the word? it is after all, all pre-recorded music - you can correct the mistakes...

however that's not to say people who make electronic music arent musical. it's just a slightly different musicality to the traditional sense of the word...

for me, the people who make the best music consistently are the most musical.. however, to be able to deliver this, you also have to know a great deal of musical science - which for electronic music is alot to do with physics and maths - waves, synthesis, frequency relationships etc.. without this, you're just not going to be able to consistently express your musicality through electronics... unless you employ an engineer of course - but in my book that's cheating lol ;)

I agree with this.

But I wouldn't call them an engineer - I would call them a "ghost writer". The fact that people are so arsed about getting there music out and making it polished and not making the music which is reflecting their emotions or creativity is just cheating themselves really. Empty, hollow shell.

I remember watching the Youngsters at Dogma 2002ish. One of the doods there can obviously play piano and they were also singing. It might not be everyone's bag but i thought they were talented and very, very good (and interesting)

The fact that you can take ableton and record the midi on the fly (from finger drumming a pad controller to playing a keyboard) and develop it in the true sense of the word LIVE is where i think it gets really cool. I love tweaking when it comes to synths and music making but there's nothing like being able to (or trying to) smash a rhythm out on drums or play a wicked melody on the piano - I like the fact it's humanized, slightly wonky depending on the performer and mistakes can be made - that's the beauty!

There is no line if you don't see one.

[clubsynthetic]

sorry,but i think its a bit of a daft question to be honest. in order to be an affecive musican you have to be a really good technician. weather thats manipulating a violin,a piano or computer software is irrelevant.

this as well.

[basslinejunkie]

i saw the youngsters at the f com birthday in liverpool,must of been a good 10 yrs ago. was absolutely amazing.

[blistanbul]

sorry,but i think its a bit of a daft question to be honest. in order to be an affecive musican you have to be a really good technician. weather thats manipulating a violin,a piano or computer software is irrelevant.

weather?

mate it is never a good for the rain to manipulate your violin, piano or software??
:rueek:

[blistanbul]

i think you can be a good musician yet be a shitte programmer, or be a good software manipulator yet a shitte musician.

it is perfectly conceivable.

i am sure there are hundreds of examples of this.

[clubsynthetic]

or both

[basslinejunkie]

i think you can be a good musician yet be a shitte programmer, or be a good software manipulator yet a shitte musician.

it is perfectly conceivable.

i am sure there are hundreds of examples of this.

it isnt conceivable atall.

to make truly great music, you have to master your chosen format / instrument.

if you are a shite programmer / software manipulator, you will make shite music. if you try and play the piano with two fingers, you will produce shite music.

simples.

[blistanbul]

it isnt conceivable atall.

to make truly great music, you have to master your chosen format / instrument.

if you are a shite programmer / software manipulator, you will make shite music. if you try and play the piano with two fingers, you will produce shite music.

simples.

just because you can play an instrument doesn't mean you make great music.

check out all the death metal band groups.

[davethedrummer]

i knew aphex built his own gear etc, but you can't tell me selected ambient works 85-92 and richard d james albums didn't have any musicianship?

you can play all the melodies on ambient works by using just the black keys.
try it.

[SlavikSvensk]

being a "great musician," in terms of knowing your instrument or gear inside and out, does not make you a good composer.

having more limited knowledge of these doesn't make you a bad one either. if that was the case, no one would speak of punk or early house/techno in the reverent terms they do.

that said, techno is kind of past the "presets on a 303+presets on a 909+simple patters" period, and hasn't yet entered a period of anti-technical lowfi production (though believe me, it's almost assured). right now, you need to demonstrate a certain level of technical proficiency behind the boards (real or virtual) to get noticed.

being able to play a non-electronic instrument, or not, doesn't seem to have much bearing on whether someone makes good techno at all.

[morbid]

It doesn't matter a bit in electronic music

Any idiot can programme a synth, tweak some knobs, click some pretty red lights on a sequencer

See Beatport Top 10 for more info

[clubsynthetic]

Beatport a benchmark?

lol

[morbid]

Yes

A benchmark of the sort of epic shitness that is churned out by non-musicians

[blistanbul]

you can play all the melodies on ambient works by using just the black keys.
try it.

i have a mini korg care to share some notes?


what do you consider yourself dave a technician or a musician more in line in a classical sense?


also have you ever thought of making ambient tunes?
:wave:

[clubsynthetic]

with terminology like "black keys", hes obviously a musician :P

[clubsynthetic]

Yes

A benchmark of the sort of epic shitness that is churned out by non-musicians

Yeah, I understood that. I just thought the statement was funny.

[davethedrummer]

Yes

A benchmark of the sort of epic shitness that is churned out by non-musicians

what are you talking about mate ?
just because you don't like it, don't make it bad.
and I disagree, the Beatport top ten is probably WAY more musically challenging to make, than most techno will ever be, mostly being house and trance, which In my experience are demanding styles because of the extreme amount of competition and the high production quality involving vocalists and complicated melodic structures, this kind of stuff can only be made in decent studios by competent people , no way can idiots throw this kind of stuff together.
and no not any idiot can tweak some knobs program a synth or do any of that stuff
sorry but it's not that easy.
to say that is to totally undermine the history of dance music i.m.o.

sorry bud , but maybe you want to rethink that rather brash statement.

[davethedrummer]

I am a musician of sorts
but not a proficient keyboard player, more a Drummer with a good sense of melody due to my parents both being professional musicians, I learnt Piano and Guitar when I was very young but never did any exams or grades.

but yeah "black keys" is a bit non-muso but that's what I meant

I am a drummer after all.....

[force]

and no not any idiot can tweak some knobs program a synth or do any of that stuff
sorry but it's not that easy.


QFT

[BloodStar]

bit of both = win

[morbid]

what are you talking about mate ?
just because you don't like it, don't make it bad.
and I disagree, the Beatport top ten is probably WAY more musically challenging to make, than most techno will ever be, mostly being house and trance, which In my experience are demanding styles because of the extreme amount of competition and the high production quality involving vocalists and complicated melodic structures, this kind of stuff can only be made in decent studios by competent people , no way can idiots throw this kind of stuff together.
and no not any idiot can tweak some knobs program a synth or do any of that stuff
sorry but it's not that easy.
to say that is to totally undermine the history of dance music i.m.o.

sorry bud , but maybe you want to rethink that rather brash statement.

Fair comments

I do think though that the proliferation of non-musicians in recent years has diluted what we listen to to a certain extent

I think the evolution of synthesisers, drum machines and software has facilitated the creation of electronic music by non-musicians who wouldn't know B flat from a council flat

My four year old can play about with the envelope or cutoff in a musical way but I bet she's shit on the violin

[DarkYoung]

Fair comments

I do think though that the proliferation of non-musicians in recent years has diluted what we listen to to a certain extent

I think the evolution of synthesisers, drum machines and software has facilitated the creation of electronic music by non-musicians who wouldn't know B flat from a council flat

My four year old can play about with the envelope or cutoff in a musical way but I bet she's shit on the violin

like your mum's legs:wank:

[clubsynthetic]

I am a musician of sorts
but not a proficient keyboard player, more a Drummer with a good sense of melody due to my parents both being professional musicians, I learnt Piano and Guitar when I was very young but never did any exams or grades.

but yeah "black keys" is a bit non-muso but that's what I meant

I am a drummer after all.....

Aye dood, I'm just tuggin' yer chain ;)

[davethedrummer]

Fair comments

I do think though that the proliferation of non-musicians in recent years has diluted what we listen to to a certain extent

I think the evolution of synthesisers, drum machines and software has facilitated the creation of electronic music by non-musicians who wouldn't know B flat from a council flat

My four year old can play about with the envelope or cutoff in a musical way but I bet she's shit on the violin

I hear you
Yeah there's just a lot more music around these days because it's so "easy" to make and yes that has filled the pot to overflowing. But there have always been people who are good at it and people what aren't and that has nothing to do with musical knowledge.

My mum who is a retired piano teacher always used to say "music is 1% talent and 99% hard work" , and that is as true now as it's always been, in my opinion. Learning software and working out how to make music with computers is a complicated process which requires determination and effort, and often years of hard work to really accomplish something really special.
Yeah you can make a track in 5 mins but it will be crap and it will just sit in the quagmire of crapness with all the other tracks made in 5 minutes
( of which there are so many now, I grant you that. )

I think it was Edward Elgar the british composer who couldn't really write music too well, He was self taught. So he worked with an academic to help him write his orchestrations, similar to the role a producer might play in a studio now don't you think ?

So there it is.

[SlavikSvensk]

think vocals are way harder to do than beats or synths. need much more expensive equipment too, to do it right.

[MARK ANXIOUS]

really fantastic posts here guys.... especially the last morbid and dave drummer ones.... keep them coming!!! :)

[clubsynthetic]

It doesn't matter a bit in electronic music

Any idiot can programme a synth, tweak some knobs, click some pretty red lights on a sequencer

See Beatport Top 10 for more info

I was thinking about this over a wee doob...



Not really. The only knowledge you need to make music is the knowledge you have already for yourself and other people (possibly space cadets - i don't know). so what if we think it's shit?

the thing is everyone listens to music in a different way and therefor cannot really compare anyone to anyone - as it is said - cue cliche - "one man's shite is another mans sugar"

but don't get me wrong - i think beatport is utterly boring.

and then speak to a technician, they will tell you half of what they do is art (i.e compression) and half science.

in a way, technicians need to know how to be musical in some sort of way, if they are to transcend the ideas of artists accurately.

[Jake Conlon]

I always think of them being the same thing with regards to Techno.