Question: How would you take techno forward?

[MARKEG]

As you might have realised I've been away from the board for a good few weeks now. Basically Chrissi and I have locked ourselves away in the studio and I have to say, we really think we are hitting on some interesting new techniques that will totally improve our productions.

I thought it would be nice to start this topic cause it's all we've been talking about in the studio - how to introduce new things into the sound and take things in a new direction. Anyone can bang out the same old shit but can you go forward? What do you need to do to go forward? These are all really interesting questions that need to be answered in my book.

To those that don't produce - what do you think techno is needing at the moment in it's content. Don't say the same old obvious shit like no breakdowns or less formulas. Is there something you think when you hear a hard techno track and think - if only it has 'this' in it?

To the producers on the board - what do you think is limiting your sound? Why do you let it limit you? What ideas have you got that you think could spark a whole new generation of techno ppl? If you're not thinking you need to take things forward then why not?

Here's to the beginning of an interesting conversation ;)

[DJZeMig_L]

I think that the ovr use of fast bpm and exagerated distortion is limiting a bit ...

not in my particular case but I find this more and more...

The look 4 a certain sound is also limiting, play around and ask yerself how it sound 2 ya...


I think u should try and embrace more sub-genre into techno ... myself i luv mixing it all up, the minimal, the getho, etc...

Don't really think is anything new but is something I feel right now!

Z

[Ritzi Lee]

Yesterday i been to the recordshop to check out some new records.
I discovered a lot of broken beats technotracks. I also discovered Cari Lekebush with some improved sounds. I also like the stuff Echoplex is making these days....

It's not a matter of trying to make a new sound. I think new sounds are dependent on the evolution of technology... Just put out some creative producers and the newest studio equipment in 1 room and let them freak out.

And ofcourse if you really want to think creative,
listen to other kind of music. Not only techno / dance.
Most inspiration / original things exist from a totaly different genre of music.

Evolvement / improvement is something universal.
If you try to see it more locally, you are eventualy out of options.

[jonnyspeed]

I've always had the opinion that techno just needs to expand outwards to provide more and more choice. The good thing about techno is that it is such a massive genre that you can go with what you like and you'll be damn sure that hundreds of other people will like it too :)

The only thing I would like is for more music that makes me smile and think... "tune!". deep phat analague basslines and repetitive spacious beats, please. And you know me, Mark, lots of rave horns!

peace.

[The Overfiend]

To bring the genre forward.

One. A collective mentality may help.
If the clickish kind of behavior would stop new blood could come in and give a new excitement about this music we call techno.

Two. I totally agree with Ze Mig L, The saturation of records coming out with the distorted sound is killing the substandard of production for the next generation. You have slew of people just making noise over a beat and the more this is accepted it's almost having a mutant like child, that no one wants around but you have to accept as part of the whole.

Three. Some people with some real business sense, if these distributors were run with a serious business mind with the artist and the consumer in mind the genre wouldn't be going under so to speak.

Also pingeonholing producers is also a big part of why this music is going under, people are expecting a certain sound from most producers and the second something different is tried they are slagged.

As far as me myself trying to contribute to the greater whole. I am trying to make music with the dance floor in mind. Most people now are forgetting all that hard stuff and some breakbeat stuff can really clear a dance floor and isnt really fair to the uneducated listener. I think techno came into my life on the dancefloor and that is where i will return the favor, I'm also aspiring a few other plans which my close associates are only in the kno about but, a lot of "big names" have guided me in the right direction production wise, music, and career wise, so I hope when I am in a better position musically I can return the favor to the next generations up and coming. As long as there is talent there of course, not some 13 year kid making music to annoy his parents. ;)

[dirty_bass]

Well as Summer of Sam said.
Less cliquey-ness and more unity can only be a good thing. The sharing of knowledge and talent in the right environment can only strengthen the whole.

I personally am trying to take things forward by trying not to refer to techno at all. I am listening to everything but techno, and am trying to bring back what the dance scene lost in it`s domination of the musical "zeitgeist". And that is the "song" structure. I am trying to bring a vocal element, and eventually an instrumental element, without getting too cheesy. I don`t know if this is a good way to go, but it`s all about taking risks isn`t it.

I love the experimental side of techno, but it is really niche stuff, and not really too dancefloor friendly, so I think honing and crafting some of the techniques of the more experimental side of things, could be a way to go as well. Never forget the punter on the dancefloor.

Also the epic nature of some of the really dark techno can be used to greater advantage. Some of this music has real emotional power, and too many producers make cold music, but it is music that causes an emotional response that is the most memorable. Some more emotional usage of the dark side of techno would have real potential to bring tears to the eye of the listener.

Well, that`s my ten pence worth anyway.

[Orange]

make music with the dance floor in mind :clap:


Never forget the punter on the dancefloor. :clap:

More 4 the FLOOR

[The Divide]

My 2 cents...

I am bored of tracks been built purely on tribal style drum sections. I would like to hear more sound manipulationand feeling expressed through sounds. At the end of the day its all about the rhythm but it doesnt mean we have to use the same old dry sounds. I don’t think you have to reach for the nearest machine sample cd, however some futuristic sounds/synths would be good imo.

I see Migz point with the fast bmp over distorted sound but that’s not the techno I hear when I am out at a club so it doesn’t bother me. I just see it as another sub-genre. Although I can understand this because there’s a lot of this stuff in the record shops

For me I would like to hear more sound synthesis, tunes with more emotion and identity thro the sounds. I also think that new structures and ways of making the techno change in its 6 min duration wouldn’t do any harm. I don’t mean to sound old fashioned but why not have a record with a beginning middle and end section, instead of the same groove.

I would like techno to feel more like that equipment is speaking to you. When its looping its great but I would like to jump out of the loop and into more programmed sections within it.

With my tracks I find what limiting my sound is, having to think ahead for the dj, it sometimes feels like I have to do certain things within the tracks otherwise the labels won’t take it or the dj's wont play it. This can make my sound more formulated. I’m actually trying to think of a way around this. I also feel limited because of the lack of hardware and would love to try a different approach within the studio. Perhaps an external midi sequencer and more devices hooked into each other. I like the analogue sound much more. I dont think you have to go non 4/4 but i do think that genre itself has a big future in techno right now.

[The Divide]

Ohhhh and deffinatly more of your own recorded sounds. Always worth trying for some inspiration man ;)

[DJZeMig_L]

Sorry by reading this I just remeber one of the most important things 2 make things move,.. respect yerself, do what u feel is good... and not what other say is good or label/ punters/ what ever...

I am a firm believer in giving back both 2 the comunity and 2 the dance floor. but if I feel like making a track out of a fart I do .. later I'll worrie about releases and the all bla bla bla.... even if it ...errr... stinks...


PS - B different because u r and not because u wanna b! ;)

Z

[dan the acid man]

the most important thing i love to hear is people's passion coming out in the music they make, this should be enough to develop techno further as not everyone's passion's are the exact same, do what you feel is right and believe in yourself.

as a punter iv'e really loved some of the more vocal tracks like cluster 50 release mosquito's tweeter and another iv'e just got patterns 14.

[DROID]

move techno forward? sit in it in the passenger seat of ur mini van drive to 60 mph then crash head on at full speed into a brick wall and watch techno "MOVE FORWARD" thru the windshield :clap:


:cool:

[mindgame]

To those that don't produce - what do you think techno is needing at the moment in it's content. Don't say the same old obvious shit like no breakdowns or less formulas. Is there something you think when you hear a hard techno track and think - if only it has 'this' in it?

less focus on bass - deep bass is good - it drives techno - but i find alot of techno now a days is all bass oriented and there iusent too much going on outside of that...especially int eh nu skool acid techno - you have some small patterns going on somewhere behind teh scene-
bass adn atmosphere is a good start..but how about more patterns - more sounds - bleeps and twists with the techno...techno in itself is a dj tool...give more sounds for the dj's to work with a use -

i mean no offense to anyone on this board but i feel sometimes tracks are way over produced (which is ok if a producer really wants to get into his production) but that there is so much going on that there is no real need to MIX - all they have to do is blend because the track takes care of it for them - it allows for too many cracker jack box djs -
it saddened me on another thread to find that most people are more concerned and will pay and promote djs simply because they have good track selection (it is important..no one wants to dance to crap) but too many people are not concerned with a dj's skills - and they dont have to be because teh mixes are taken care of cuz they are built into the track -

id like to see more production that will force djs to do something - (even though they shouldent have to be forced) -

[dirty_bass]

feel sometimes tracks are way over produced (which is ok if a producer really wants to get into his production) but that there is so much going on that there is no real need to MIX - all they have to do is blend because the track takes care of it for them - it allows for too many cracker jack box djs -
it saddened me on another thread to find that most people are more concerned and will pay and promote djs simply because they have good track selection (it is important..no one wants to dance to crap) but too many people are not concerned with a dj's skills - and they dont have to be because teh mixes are taken care of cuz they are built into the track -

id like to see more production that will force djs to do something - (even though they shouldent have to be forced) -

I think DJ`s are self important enough without pandering to the limelight luvvin, human jukeboxes ;) :shock:
If a tune is so good it sounds like it`s being mixed, then what`s wrong with that? It`s the tunes that are important, without em a DJ is just a geezer with fidgety hands, and a crick in his neck.

More Live P.A`s, that`s another thing that could push it.

Less DJ`s and more live P.A`s, yeah, that`ll put a spanner in the works :twisted:

[Ritzi Lee]

OK but now we all agree techno is inspired by other musicgenres?
At some point in time there was a kind of development that techno suddenly was inpired by other technosounds. And a lot of producers began to apply this formula....

Doesn't this give a kind of recursive effect? Isn't this exactly what Mark is trying to explain?

[scienceofuse]

Techno itself was inspired by other music genres! I agree with you that some techno producers began looking for inspiration inside the techno scene itself, which isn't a bad thing by itself, but I generally prefer producers with some sort of different musical background. It seems that people, who were into different genres of music before getting into the whole "techno" thing aren't affected by the "techno purist" way of thinking, so their productions aren't as formulaic... I could think of a few producers who would make good examples, but I think everyone knows what I'm talking about and taste in music (even techno) is always subjective anyway, so...

Opinions?

[jonnyspeed]

the most important thing i love to hear is people's passion coming out in the music they make, this should be enough to develop techno further as not everyone's passion's are the exact same, do what you feel is right and believe in yourself.

as a punter iv'e really loved some of the more vocal tracks like cluster 50 release mosquito's tweeter and another iv'e just got patterns 14.

word :clap:

[massplanck]

As you might have realised I've been away from the board for a good few weeks now. Basically Chrissi and I have locked ourselves away in the studio and I have to say, we really think we are hitting on some interesting new techniques that will totally improve our productions.

I thought it would be nice to start this topic cause it's all we've been talking about in the studio - how to introduce new things into the sound and take things in a new direction. Anyone can bang out the same old shit but can you go forward? What do you need to do to go forward? These are all really interesting questions that need to be answered in my book.

To those that don't produce - what do you think techno is needing at the moment in it's content. Don't say the same old obvious shit like no breakdowns or less formulas. Is there something you think when you hear a hard techno track and think - if only it has 'this' in it?

To the producers on the board - what do you think is limiting your sound? Why do you let it limit you? What ideas have you got that you think could spark a whole new generation of techno ppl? If you're not thinking you need to take things forward then why not?

Here's to the beginning of an interesting conversation ;)


Its simple Mark.

More NOTES. Less Loops.

[DJ Tomi]

When i make techno i like to make it with a really trance-style breakdown, nice and long with a big big build up, with most techno tunes ive heard the "breakdown" is only about 4 - 8 bars, wen im makin tunes im looking to make technmo kind of euphoric to a certain degree

:)

[Dustin Zahn]

I really think the 142+ schranz techno is killing it for us all. No offense intended to the people here who write or DJ this stuff. I encourage everyone to do what they love.

These days I just don't understand why you want to take one hard as nails record and mix into the next hard as nails record. For instance, if you're mixing in a heavy G.Wilson track, and then mix in another track by him or a like-minded artist...you're making it even more heavy and harder during the mix. After the mix is completed you still have a heavy as **** mix. It's boring and easy to do. Lately I've been buying up a lot of old, stripped down minimal records and throwing them on 3 decks. I find that with a little work and creativity you can still make it a hard beatin' set but it's not as monotonous.

I enjoy taking some really old P.Rhythm or Cari tracks, placing the odd Mills track over it, and working in something really weird or mental on the top. The result is three tracks creating one major head **** track that is still beatin' and somewhat thought provoking.

In my personal production lately, I've been trying to find ways to leave out more of the drums and concentrate on stripping it down and getting really crazy with the synths.

I think when techno started moving into the clubs the sound changed with it. It got more poppy and commercial with catchy hooks and easy-to-please rhythms. I remember the reason I got into techno was because of hearing these really insane, mental tracks like Spastik or some other cari lekebusch stuff. Don't get me wrong I love the clubby techno, but these days 95% of techno is either hard, fast garbage made for the sake of being hard, or poppy techno made for the sake of DJs like Cox or Fergie to play it. Sorry if I rambled.

[DJZeMig_L]

stop reading my mind of mf!! ;) eheheh :P

Try adding some wacky, funky getho/ chicago vocals on top of yer drums+ synths 2 decks... :)


Z

[The Overfiend]

stop reading my mind of mf!! ;) eheheh :P

Try adding some wacky, funky getho/ chicago vocals on top of yer drums+ synths 2 decks... :)


Z

As long as you guarantee Tyree's not going to sue!

[Bughead]

Like anything to move forward we must learn from the past and considering how formulaic techno can sound it is hard from something new to be spawnbed from it. So I would imagine that you would probably forget your dummies guide to techno and start where you want to start from, have a belief in your self and dont pander to anyone else's ideals and inputs.
BUT if you want to make money from it then thats a completely different story where trends and fashion and units of of the shops do matter.

I make techno, really weird sick fast hard distorted 160+ rhythmically exploited techno, I do so cause I want to not because I'm appealing to the greater good.

I am reading more and more on the effects music can have on the brain etc and ( harsh sounds can cause agitation and fear ) and I will start to incorporate this type of ethos into my sounds soon enough.

Also making your own sounds is a good thing. Abusing your machines, making them squeal is another good thing and knowing your equipment can harm either. Once you have these things sorted the world is your lobster

peace
Dez..

[massplanck]

Once you have these things sorted the world is your lobster

peace
Dez..


Did you really mean to say that? :lol:

[mindgame]

These days I just don't understand why you want to take one hard as nails record and mix into the next hard as nails record. For instance, if you're mixing in a heavy G.Wilson track, and then mix in another track by him or a like-minded artist...you're making it even more heavy and harder during the mix. After the mix is completed you still have a heavy as **** mix. It's boring and easy to do. Lately I've been buying up a lot of old, stripped down minimal records and throwing them on 3 decks. I find that with a little work and creativity you can still make it a hard beatin' set but it's not as monotonous

because soemtimes its fun...sometimes the mystical journey starting from a minimal track all teh way up gets boaring and that style of mixing is a bit monotonous itself..sometimes its nice to just have suttin to bang to for 60 minutes...
grab bag mixes are nice but so are one style mixes..depends on preferences..

[BloodStar]

I don't know if I bring something constructive to this topic,. but I agree with Summer of Sam, that new blood can bring something new in techno. something which is done from different point of view and with different ideas.
But it's really hard for noname people to join the "club", U know.
I'm doing techno for 5 or 6 years, now. I've started with production, before I've touched the vinyl firtstime. I had to learn everything myself, and there was lack of knowledges at the beginning, like at everyone's start.
I had to learn everything from the first beat up to everything about production and also mastering, which isn't the best but it means better quality for my tracks, than was without it.
I don't do all this for money, but because of love to this music,, which my biggest hobby for couple of years. So i have to say, why to be paid for something u like, and u r doing because of good feeling. I don't need money for it, my satisfaction is to do something comparable to your stuffs guys, because your production references are like in my dreams :o)
sharing kowledges is great idea. but, practicaly how to do that. Thanks to god, to MarkEG indeed, too :clap: , for this forum which a great place to learn something new to everyone who's member here., but any other ideas, of sharing the ideas and thought in music?
I don't know if I can bring something new, it has to tell someone else, but I'm trying to prefer, just things I like, and things how I want to be done in my tracks.
Stop wasting this place.
But my dream is that someone give me an opportuinity and say, come on, this your chance, show us what's inside you... That's all.....
sorry for my English :twisted:

[crime]

These days I just don't understand why you want to take one hard as nails record and mix into the next hard as nails record. For instance, if you're mixing in a heavy G.Wilson track, and then mix in another track by him or a like-minded artist...

I've never understood this neither, maybe it's BECAUSE it's easy to mix this stuff that it's so popular. Why not mix up a whole load of different stuff, if anyone actually bothered to look and took their blinkers outside of loop hell, and stopped worring about whether they would have the ability to "Mix it smoothly" then maybe things would be more diverse. The fact every kiddy wants to be a dj means all the loop records sell loads as it's so easy to sound like a "Good DJ'" (If your benchmark of good is being able to beatmatch perfectly), so it's the hard loop stuff that gets perpetuated, the distributors become less interested in more varied stuff, and just go for stocking and putting out what's selling.. I mean c'mon people, start thinking out of the box, be brave and try something out you'd never have thought you would like, the world doesn't end at SUF, Cluster, and Hydraulix (No disrespect to those labels BTW).. I'm currently listening to the new Richard Bartz album on Gigolo, Something I would never have considered listening to at all (Was lucky to get a promo I suppose!) and I'm not into most of it, but I've found a gem of a track for playing out, and I would never have found it if I hadn't have listened to it.. A good DJ should be able to play in a variety of circumstances, not just at 3am when it's totally 'avin it, and record sales dictate what the distributors are going to take on, and what they're going to drop, so the future really is it the record buying public's hands.. If you support interesting varied stuff, you'll get more of it, if you support more of the same, it's going to get more and more boring and formulated..


I remember the reason I got into techno was because of hearing these really insane, mental tracks like Spastik or some other cari lekebusch stuff. .

It's all got a bit blanded out.. if you love the nutz shit, you want to be checking out Noodles 6 for a complete gem by frankie bones, or even just go for playing the old stuff.. I'd say 75% of the records I play out are pre 2000, just as I feel they're BETTER than a lot of stuff that's coming out now.. Sometimes you have to look back to move forward...
That's the DJ thing covered, as for production, you don't think I'd give my secrets away that easily did you?
;)
Just keep buying the Crime records if you want to hear something that's moving things on......

[romelpotter]

i play style wilson tracks and others but only as part os a set of about 4 or 5 tracks then i change the style and move on. I think they are more effective as part of a mini set with in a set if you see what i mean. :lol:

[gumpy green]

i know this debate has been more about productions......

but i recon the one thing that techno is lacking is really good djs....the techno djs are doing very little to push the dj art form forward when compared to what get done in hiphop.

thers not one so called "top" dj in techno that makes me stand back like woooooaaaaaaaaawwwwww..... its same old beatmatching over and over...

and any that i have seen skracth etc are lame as we say(in hiphop) "TOY" cuts.

[basslinejunkie]

maybe a bit of variety in the labels my help a bit instead of sticking 2 1 particular genre of techno? just a thought.

[death on a stick]

These days I just don't understand why you want to take one hard as nails record and mix into the next hard as nails record. For instance, if you're mixing in a heavy G.Wilson track, and then mix in another track by him or a like-minded artist...

I've never understood this neither, maybe it's BECAUSE it's easy to mix this stuff that it's so popular. Why not mix up a whole load of different stuff, if anyone actually bothered to look and took their blinkers outside of loop hell, and stopped worring about whether they would have the ability to "Mix it smoothly" then maybe things would be more diverse. The fact every kiddy wants to be a dj means all the loop records sell loads as it's so easy to sound like a "Good DJ'" (If your benchmark of good is being able to beatmatch perfectly), so it's the hard loop stuff that gets perpetuated, the distributors become less interested in more varied stuff, and just go for stocking and putting out what's selling.. I mean c'mon people, start thinking out of the box, be brave and try something out you'd never have thought you would like, the world doesn't end at SUF, Cluster, and Hydraulix (No disrespect to those labels BTW).. I'm currently listening to the new Richard Bartz album on Gigolo, Something I would never have considered listening to at all (Was lucky to get a promo I suppose!) and I'm not into most of it, but I've found a gem of a track for playing out, and I would never have found it if I hadn't have listened to it.. A good DJ should be able to play in a variety of circumstances, not just at 3am when it's totally 'avin it, and record sales dictate what the distributors are going to take on, and what they're going to drop, so the future really is it the record buying public's hands.. If you support interesting varied stuff, you'll get more of it, if you support more of the same, it's going to get more and more boring and formulated..
BOOM



maybe it's BECAUSE it's easy to mix this stuff that it's so popular.
Easy to mix, easy to make, easy to dance to, easy to understand. No challenges, nothing to question, nothing to wonder at. Young blood is all well and good, but when the up and comings are merely seeking to buy an express ticket to tech-notoriety who's gonna bother working "outside the box"? The fruity loops have been sitting in the bowl for too long. Going round and round, chasing their own tails. If all you need to do to be as good as your musical heroes is get yourself some decks and 15 identical sounding records...well, let's all do it.

Techno is of course moving on, it always does. What we're talking about here is the stuff that has been left behind, has fallen victim to stagnation due to a combination of lack of imagination and the acquired need to sustain a status. It's suffering from the top to the bottom. Eventually the only way to make the music sound different will be to take all-but-suicidal levels of hallucinogenic drugs.

Where to go from here? Go backwards to go forwards? Remember what it is we miss from when we fell in love with techno? For many people that's not long enough ago to be any different to the bang bang bang we're discussing. So who's responsible? Nobody can keep at it forever, either it has to move on or it will die...the kids will get bored and move on...perhaps the ranks will be refreshed at the younger end but you can't flog a dead horse for too long before it falls to pieces.

Imagination. Can you imagine another 100,000 hard techno tracks constructed out of 2 beat percussive loops? Frighteningly, I can.

I wish I had a solution, but I'm not a huge thinker...if it were me standing on the top of the narrow pole that is "hard/club techno" as defined by this forum, or attempting to climb it's slippery heights...I'd think about jumping off and going to see what else was around...cos when you get up there it's both crowded and pretty unstimulating. As has been written already...influences need to be brought in. Points of reference, things that pique peoples' imaginations and send them off on a journey of discovery. People need to open their minds a little, stop calling other people purists and take a look inside and work out if it ain't you who's the purist, suffering from tunnel vision.

Have a read of this here: http://www.blackoutaudio.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=13980 and see if you can't apply the same level of immersion to the creation and appreciation of hard techno music.

[Francisco Scaramanga]

For me its quite simple - techno needs to be less boring. Far too often I go to a night and find myself bored by far to much of it. Producers need to make records that are something other than a 7 minute long loop with a few fills in it, and DJ's need to find these tunes that are not 7 minute loops and play them. This whole idea of "DJ Tools" amuses me - its a total cop out if you ask me. It just says to me that the producer either couldent be bothered or wasn't able to turn what is just a very simple loop into a complete track with a bit of feeling. And then mediocre DJ's play them, thinking perhaps that it is infact a complete track and its just "minimal", and on the dancefloor we have to listen to 4 or 5 minutes of the same shit, followed closely by a track that sounds exactly the same. It would be cool if maybe just the occasional track like this is dropped, or if you drop one after the other but bringing in the next one every 30 seconds.

I have no idea what direction is the right way, but I am pretty sure of what the wrong way is, so I suppose anything other than that is improvement.

Variety is the spice of life!!!!!!

[The Overfiend]

I think the question was "What would YOU do for techno"
Not what each individual thinks is wrong, the subject will go over in circles when the people from opposing sides start to debate. I think the question was more how to save the genre, not shoot aces at the mutant children of it. :rambo:

[DJZeMig_L]

Right...

One note : The genre doesn't need saving .. techno keeps reinventing itself, it's is a mutant taking all sorts of shapes and constantly mutating, ... even from "bad" will come something good... I believe this is the way forward doing what u damn' well feel like even if others don't call it techno or thing it's a betrayal bla bla.. don't b afraid 2 go with yer thoughs and ideias... Be yerself Musically... at the end of the day we should b here bcause we luv it not 4 the sake of techno, underground, pop what ever!! :)

Z

[The Overfiend]

Right...

One note : The genre doesn't need saving .. techno keeps reinventing itself, it's is a mutant taking all sorts of shapes and constantly mutating, ... even from "bad" will come something good... I believe this is the way forward doing what u damn' well feel like even if others don't call it techno or thing it's a betrayal bla bla.. don't b afraid 2 go with yer thoughs and ideias... Be yerself Musically... at the end of the day we should b here bcause we luv it not 4 the sake of techno, underground, pop what ever!! :)

Z

See that's what I'm talking about. Right on Miguelito!

[crime]

I think the question was "What would YOU do for techno"
Not what each individual thinks is wrong, the subject will go over in circles when the people from opposing sides start to debate. I think the question was more how to save the genre, not shoot aces at the mutant children of it. :rambo:

Ok, what I was saying was on the angle of the majority of stuff that's getting pushed, week in week out, out of the distributors, I hear the same thing, and I was saying it very much on a "Records" angle...
as far as what would I do to push things forward.. I don't feel I need to explain that here, I can do more, just by producing and releasing records...
All I'm saying is there's a lot of people moaning how nothing changes, when the situation really is in the record buyers hands, i.e. stop buying the records you find boring (Don't feel that you HAVE to buy something just because you listened to it), and support the stuff you find fresh, and failing that, instead of getting into long winded debate about it, why not produce some stuff that IS groundbreaking, put your heart and soul into it, and get it out there... it's as simple as that ;)

[crime]

And surely you have to find out what is "Wrong" in order to have some sort of progression, as appose to saying "Everything is OK". Otherwise there would be NO progression... I'm very rarely 100% satisfied with everything I do, and this is what inspires me personally to try and progress...

[MARKEG]

this has made very interesting reading indeed.

techno does NOT need saving in my book and that wasn't the reason why i asked the question. i love the 2 bar loopy stuff and i love the innovative stuff. as long as it's not formulated manufactured crap at least it's all sort of staying within the 'general' techno genre. the beauty of techno and one of it's strongest plus points is that ppl can get on board through the different strains and then they find out a whole lot more. :clap:

anyway. rant over hehehe. what also makes techno so good is that it is constantly going forward. i'm adamant about this. and that's why this is a very important question. it's not about getting rid of other forms of techno, it's not about doing it because you feel you have to it's about doing it because you want to. because that's what is so interesting about this music over the last 20 years. at one time it was a simple case of saying 'wow i've never heard that 'sound' before' but now it's so much more than that. it's like you want to say 'wow i've never heard that 'style' of techno before'.

so what is that 'style'? what r you looking for in that 'style'? some of you have explained this well but i can't help some of you are just saying 'bah humbug there's so much crap out there and that is what needs to stop'. no it doesn't. it's an important part of the picture. you just have to be one step ahead ;) what is your step ahead? ????

i know what mine is. but i have different views on techno that i want to 'listen' to and techno i want to dance to. for listening i want 0 formulas. i want something that crosses the realms of autechre with dark dark techno. for the dancefloor i want something that crosses dark techno with the hard stuff but with the energy and less of the reverbed sounds that so much dark techno is using. it's hard to describe but it's the way chrissi and i want to go with our sound. but it's tough and takes alot of dedication to do something different. read that autechre interview and you'll see what level you have to be on to break formulas.

but is this really the future or am i kidding myself? fernando has a nice point about melody. but these days you put melody on techno and it becomes tech-trance. mind you fern, you are making some lovely techno at the mo that is really different.

let's lay off the slagging about crap techno and really try to home in on what is going to make good innovative techno music eh?!?!!!!! ;)

[crime]

Firstly, I've got nothing against people loving what they're into, if you're into a particular sound and it really does it for you, whether it be hard loops, London acid stuff, the dark industrial regis/downward sound, or wonk, electro, detroit, more housey sounding stuff whatever, if you're into it, you're into it, and fairplay to that, one man's pleasure is another man's poison, mutual respect and all that..

But let's be honest here.
I personally don't hear much innovation in a lot of techno these days, and we're never going to get back to the explosion of new stuff that we had in the early 90s.. The stuff that could be described as innovative generally falls too far outside what the majority would have in their record boxes...Then again, innovation can be viewed as quite a personal thing..

As for describing what you'd do, surely it's better just to do it, experiment, rather than speculate randomly on what would be good? surely if you can totally personify music with words, what is the point in the music? Not wanting to fall into "Millsisms" or anything, and as much as I don't neccesarily agree with the quote wholeheartedly, but I think there is at least something in what Oliver Ho once said in an interview:

Music is a metaphor for a concept so abstract that you can't use words
The wording of it I don't really like (Maybe this is my own prejudice against these kind of "mills" kind of statements), but there is a concept in there that I can see, which is, if you can talk about it, is there any need for the music?
Not wanting to detract from the good intentions of this thread at all, but it seems slightly flawed IMHO, as the best way you can state what you can do to progress the music cannot fundamentally be explained in words, it's best expressed with new innovative music.
Personally, I think to push things forward, you have to take elements that you liked from the past, and lose the elements that you don't like (Which inevitably means pointing out what you don't like, you can't have innovation and not confront this issue) and fuse it with something new and fresh, which can only come from experimentation in the studio, and having the guts to do something different that might not be accepted by a lot of people. this last point is even harder if you are an established artist who has a certain sound expected of them, and are relying on their music for their income, it becomes very risky, but to be a true innovator you have to take those risks.. Even then, it's always going to be a matter of personal opinion on whether something is really pushing things forward..


but is this really the future or am i kidding myself?

I don't think we're ever going to see the explosion of innovation in techno that we saw in the early 90s.. there will be innovation in music, but techno has become far too catagorised, that anything that really breaks the mould won't be considered to be techno, it will be something that doesn't have a name, and to have the same kind of energy and excitment would have to be a whole new movement, without prejudice or any pre-concieved ideas of what it should or shouldn't be, this is the only way that innovation can flourish, when the canvas is blank, and it's a whole new sound/scene/ thing in general.. Personally I think you're kidding yourself if you think techno is the music of the future, but that's just my opinion.. I could be completely wrong and be eating my hat within 10 years :lol:

I don't want to seem like I'm being awkward here or anything, I'm just stating the opinion I believe in...
Peace.

[djvartan]

move techno forward? sit in it in the passenger seat of ur mini van drive to 60 mph then crash head on at full speed into a brick wall and watch techno "MOVE FORWARD" thru the windshield :clap:


:cool:

i second that!
:twisted:

[massplanck]

move techno forward? sit in it in the passenger seat of ur mini van drive to 60 mph then crash head on at full speed into a brick wall and watch techno "MOVE FORWARD" thru the windshield :clap:


:cool:

i second that!
:twisted:

I'm pissed.. let me warn ye first. ;)

'Move techno on' blah blah blah the future of techno....

I'm a year out of my loopy/compressssed techno buzz now and I'm having to track down records 7 years old which represent what techno means to me 'today'... (fyi - .Jamie Lidell "Sonely some (o) ney" (Sativae) thanks M)

Its all there. Its been spent to death in every shape or form already. but I think the average techno DJ has taken it to the stage where the records he plays have to be an extention of his penis rather than a musical workout for the punter...

Ctrl Z all the compression and lets hear what you really tapped in (without quantization)

[MARKEG]

Ctrl Z all the compression and lets hear what you really tapped in (without quantization)

what a great quote... :clap:

[dtl]

I am more and more leaning to the edge and about to jump off the producing cliff, purely becoz of what most of you have already mentioned regarding to the stereotyped relationship between Djs, producers and punter.

Djs are not eager to learn new skills, I see a combination of 2 decks and a computer with millions mp3 samples (imagine how many old tunes you could have) would be great. You wouldnt have to spend money on a efx box or a 4 channel efx mixer as you could loop, flanger, sample and all the blah blah on the comp. Had I got some better needles, I would first to master the art of scratching too. Check out Dj Bam Bam, I hear his mixes (probably been doing that for ages anyway), he scratches and mixes like 40 tunes an hour, the only down point is the varity of his tune selection, but if he is into Chigaco, be it, but at least I am assure he is capable to play ANYTHING. Most Djs would qualified for a techno set should they able to beatmatch, and able to chop and cut here and there.... But I personally feel the ability to breakdown your records in your head, and pick the right tune is also very important... Then the next task is to move the crowd, even you have aqquired all the skills and efforts mentioned above, and you dont move a sodding soul on the dancefloor, you might as well stay home to play against 4 walls. Also bear in mind some punter DO NOT WISH to be experimenting with you when they just paid all those dallors for enrties, they might simply just want to go splastic -Then for a good dj, you should please them at the occasion along with as much innovative factors YOU feel they could bear, and if you really feel insulted, dont play for that party again.

But most techno or any other genre djs do not produce and only djing for either a laugh/ hobbie/ attetion.... Only those who are commited to techno and wish to hear innovated stuff for their own well being, but sadly they are the extreme minority.

Tunes wise, I cant teach a Dj to have good ears to sepreate the crappy chewed over identical craps, but listening to everything (including non-dance music) is defo the key, soon you would able to pick out the good elements from each song and stop you buying craps, mainly due to the lack of capital :) I myself discover so much joy with IDM and which I feel go hand in hand with Wonk techno, as crime mentioned, music cant be described with words, but I would like to ask all prroducers to really FEEL each sample before they enforce them, a more related tune with sounds interacting with each other, should it be loopy, trippy, distorted, wonky or anything... Sounds that connect always sound much more clever, and no more tunes I can basically predict the pattern the first time I listen to it "Oh, here is the fat hats coming in... Oh here is the sythny stabs... Oh, here is the breakdown". I cant disrespect simplicity, but there is a label and I am sure you know which one I am on about, that you can have 44 turntables and put the both sides of entire 22 releases on and play them at the same speed, you would hear the drop and breakdowns at the same freaking phrase. Talk about repetitive?

And I guess for labels and producers, using the same technique that had worked for you wouldn't elimulated the chance of failure, and that surely has to be taken out as so many labels died after 3 or 4 pretty much idenitcal releases. I guess you guys are probably limited with your equiments and inspirations, as well as influences from pass sucess would drive you back to the old fomulas. Is it so hard to take time off in between each release to ensure it doesnt sound anything like the last one? Or am I asking too much as it's risking your major income, if so, why not just produce music that sell 6000 copies rather than staying in this scene of minority?

Ya.

Eric.

[crime]

Firstly, can I ask people to READ what I posted above, and digest it please..



why not just produce music that sell 6000 copies rather than staying in this scene of minority/quote]

Ha! Chance would be a fine thing, if I could sell 6000 copies of records on my label, I wouldn't be in half the financial strife I'm in at the moment! And it's not as simple as "Just writing something that will sell 6000 copies", this would lead up the lowest common denominator path very quickly.. If you're going to go about it in the angle of shifting units, then you might as well write pop music, then again, I hear the market for that is pretty volatile these days..
That's not to say that it isn't worth doing techno stuff, I love it, still after 8 years I want to do stuff.. I'm also experimenting though, trying to do other stuff (I.e. not techno, or any genre) that hasn't been put in a box yet....

[quote]I think the average techno DJ has taken it to the stage where the records he plays have to be an extention of his penis rather than a musical workout for the punter...


Nice one Massplanck, my sentiments entirely! And nice one for the Lidell reference, the man is a true innovator, interestingly enough he moved out of the techno thing pretty quick after some stunning releases (Subhead 1-4, Freekin the Frame 8, Safety in numbers + 1 remix on tresor) and moved on to new territory which I personally think is 10 times more Techno (In attitude if mothing else) than any other supposed techno, check him out live if you want to see what innovation is all about.. Truely stunning...

[dtl]

Firstly, can I ask people to READ what I posted above, and digest it please..

Why do you always assume we are not reading and digesting to the degree of your apporavl? Like as if you havent already started a thread about it not long ago. I spent 10 mins reading the whole thread and thought I got a good grip of what you had to say. Hence the reply.


And it's not as simple as "Just writing something that will sell 6000 copies", this would lead up the lowest common denominator path very quickly.. If you're going to go about it in the angle of shifting units, then you might as well write pop music, then again, I hear the market for that is pretty volatile these days..

I appericate it is a hard time to put stuff out at the moment, hence it might be wise to ride the steady boat (music for a wider audience) with a different name as you are breaking through with Crime. Obviously the appoarch to sell your music for large units would be a lot different to pressing 400-600 vinyls, human relation for a start, the people, the promotion has all got to shift to a new dimension.

I have no interest in making music as a business as I have seen the extreme hard works from most poducers I met and the disgustingly low reward for such efforts. I am planning to start learning most software audio programs and see how far my ideas could go, but no way would I commit myself in this hostile business. Maybe that's the point of view from a stoned broke business student.

Eric.

[gunjack]

just do your thing the best you can and f*ck what everybody says. get your own sound and werk it. :twisted:

[DJZeMig_L]

Okie I think This will b a summ of my comments but could in some way wrap a but the issue...

In fairness we all think somehow we are doing it somewhat differently or adding our bit, that is the biggest problem, being objective when u r talking about a dear luv 4 music!!

in the end u have 2 b humble enought 2 hear "proper" coments, filter it a bit, analise (like crime said) what can and should (by yer own judgement) b changed... improved if u will!

But u also need 2 change because u feel u need, u should ride the wave, if u stress about doing it different u end up loosing yer soul in yer work, and that's what most of us will get 2, one day u feel that u need 2 let that track take u somewhere, as opposed 2 "..this sounds like XXX so I'll follow the usual "formula" for that style..."

Like I said b4 b different b cause U r and not because u think u should be...

the good and the bad is part of the process, sometimes what u consider now bad was once the best 2 u!! so U learn, error is so much part of the process...

sure most people take the easy way but it's a moral/ art principle that will follow u 4 the rest of yer life... "... my moto is I did it my way..." maybe it's not that different maybe it's just loopy bolloc*s with a tinny different angle but at the end of the day it's my path, the road I need 2 travel, I don't limit my views for sucess or numbers... time will tell... and if it doesn't at least I did it my way and was happy for not selling my soul, doing what I liked the way I liked... that's purelly egotistical...


Being a Pioneer is a very hard thing, no 1 understands u and that is (even if romantic) a very hard thing for any person... in fact the best thing is 2 just b only one step ahead, cause u r a little more into the future but not so far off that no 1 will pay attention (exept when u r dead)...



As for selling a lot a think those artist don't do it differently because they don't want 2 b bothered... a record might have 3-4 tracks... 2 will sell the record the other 2 u can go crazy and show different shi*.. the advent have been bangin' electroish stuff sinde the time at internal... electro wasn't even a genre if u will!!


DO YER THANG the best u can! RESPECT! Learn from every1 (even if it is 2 not make anything similar)!!

Z

[The Overfiend]

Question: How would you take techno forward?


Remember this topic?

[gustavo]

I think a lot of the good producers have 1 thing in common they r usually hard workin and take production seriously(dont release editloops lazystuff)

And they try to create their own style(and 4 this u really need to work hard)

my suggestion is dont support(lazy producers).

I dont 4 sure...

this sounds and is really simple but sometimes simple answers r the best.

[SlavikSvensk]

i love these types of threads btw...

...what i'm trying to do is free myself from convention. easier said than done, sure, but i want to do is make tracks that have at least one or two elements that are not so obvious. that's why i still love old plastikman and aphex (especially polygon window). they are killer on the dancefloor but still sound unique and mysterious.

[temp_er]

and a word from the dancefloor...
(btw, a damn nice thread, guys :clap: )

as far as i'm concerned, techno is "an abstract form of music" (kinda silly considering music is an abstract thing in itself :eh: ). but nevertheless it's always been about - oh yes - knowing well what's out there! but then taking that knowledge to avoid what's already been heard over and over again and provide you with something completely different.

that in my opinion is the main gap between conventional music and techno (and the nicest thing about techno for that matter). the typical rules, definitions and perceptions have started to choke music, limiting its potential to only a few geniuses who can still make something fresh - within these rules. that's what's also wrong with a lot of techno today - it's too melted and moulded into one basic shape. it's starting to sound like "the thing it should sound like".

and another great thing about techno is that - basically - it is relatively easy to create (ok, kill me for this one... :roll:) as opposed to conventional music. but making something sound and feel good has become easier. that's why contributing ideas into a genre that is about not going by the book, shouldn't be an issue at all. and going by the book shouldn't be an issue AT ALL.

when you start seriously questioning whether there is anything fresh that can be done in techno - either you're out of it or techno is in serious trouble. i find it a bit arrogant if one thinks one can expect what that next new thing will be: i don't know - it hasn't been heard before :P but i am also humbly optimistic that these things will keep coming...

what i find to be fresh? liveacts.
in record mixing you just can't avoid eventually oversaturing with the same tunes - even if they are good. when you happen to like a certain style, you are sentenced to the few records that the few producers put out. and generally over the time you get fed up with it.
live performers squeeze a lot more variety out of melodics, effects, rhythms, the whole spectrum... and they are noticeably more flexible and style independent. liveacts are the platform where new ideas are the quickest to evolve.

oh and yeah,.. it's got to be heavy. no debate.
i go out to party with a "bring it on" :rambo: grin on my face, and expect nothing less. music's gotta keep givin'!

[FILTERZ]

and a word from the dancefloor...
(btw, a damn nice thread, guys :clap: )


what i find to be fresh? liveacts.
in record mixing you just can't avoid eventually oversaturing with the same tunes - even if they are good. when you happen to like a certain style, you are sentenced to the few records that the few producers put out. and generally over the time you get fed up with it.
live performers squeeze a lot more variety out of melodics, effects, rhythms, the whole spectrum... and they are noticeably more flexible and style independent. liveacts are the platform where new ideas are the quickest to evolve.

oh and yeah,.. it's got to be heavy. no debate.
i go out to party with a "bring it on" :rambo: grin on my face, and expect nothing less. music's gotta keep givin'!

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: LOVE LIVE TECHNO :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: