Seriously Hard German Techno...

[MARKEG]

I'm really seeing something split here. I can see a new style developing that is a little bit TOO left of centre for me and I think alot of others. Distorted relentless stuff is great, I love it, but when it becomes mindless and samey I loose interest. I cant hear any funk between the beats on a few of the new german trax.

I'll continue to listen to this stuff and I WILL understand it if it kills me.

I actually really liked the new Seema on Combat Skill - wicked dark strings...

BUT

I mean it all seems to be on the 1 beat if you know what I mean. How much can you fit into 1 beat??????????????????????????

Look I might be wrong here.. I might not be listening to it right. Sven's thing on Knee Deep was perfect - one of my fave hard german tracks. I love Hard hard hard but there's a line. I don't want to slag individual producers off cause it's pointless, but some of it all sounds so digital and mindless. If I wanted to be in this frame of mind, gabba suits the purpose much better.

Look prove me wrong, tell me what I'm missing.

[Dustin Zahn]

You're not the one who is missing something. I know exactly which producers and labels you have in mind and I really think they're hurting things over time. This idea behind the music is to just be extemely hard and fast to please aggressive minds (or people who are all jacked up on drugs). These tracks are just made to be fast and hard for the sake of being fast and hard. There's nothing musical about it, I'd say it's more of a sudden-satisfaction for one's brain.

In a way, I kind of correlate it with death metal heads. :) You know the types...stereotypical kids who love hard nasty abrasive rock music and won't accept any substitutions. Why? It allows them to let their agression out. They can't or are afraid to look a bit deeper into other music and find what they're looking for.

TBH Mark, I think it's more interesting from a psychological point of view than a musical view!

[dtl]

Why not slagging individual producers? I always think getting contructive criticism is a good push for improvment, as long as there is no intention to cause upset, I dont see why not sounding your opinion on certain tracks/ style some producers are on ATM. I know exactly what you are saying here, I am in Holland and currently being exposed to a lot that these mindless releases...

The problem is tekno is kinda hitting the spot this year and everyone is trying to get in for a piece. Rather quick. Hence quality falls while ameture Djs continue to pick up all the new releases without much of a LISTEN just to build up their collection on this new hot thing, it helps the producers to continue to rinse out crap tunes, until the resources (interests from punters/ Djs) are totally exhausted.

I dont think you have missed anything Mark, there are so much poo out there ATM which leave me capitial to buy more hard funky tribal tuneage

Well, continue searching for new talents you shall.

Eric.

[The Overfiend]

I have to totally agree.
There are a few tracks that have an occasional melody in somewhere.
But the Funk
The Soul
and the spirit behind techno I don't see fitting in here. I saw a half decent live pa kind of ruined by my standards by someone talking jibberish over the beat in a drunken rage, It' just reflects immaturity as far as I am concerned and will turn people off to techno. It was once said that techno was a forward thinking music with no regard to the past(Derrick May), but now it seems techno itself is not having any regard for its own roots.

[dirty_bass]

I got used to stuff like this from my old mates at Mainline Soundsystem (remember them?)
It becomes a competition between who can be the hardest producer, and then the DJ`s compete with this type of music to be the hardest DJ.

And to be honest with you, I don`t find it hard at all. It`s SO hard that it becomes soft, if you get me. It`s just relentless to the point where it`s like working near (or on) a building site for a while. You just don`t take notice of it anymore.

you can be so much more disturbing and hard, when you slow it down a bit, and put a lot of thought into sound design, rather than the old "oh just get any old synth and distort the barsteward" attitude.

[drift9]

you can be so much more disturbing and hard, when you slow it down a bit, and put a lot of thought into sound design, rather than the old "oh just get any old synth and distort the barsteward" attitude.

Yeah, Dirty_Bass, gotta say you nailed it right out of the ballpark there. Hard techno is at its best when intelligently programmed, precise and cutting.

I feel the precision in a lot of the latest super-aggressive stuff from Germany has been lacking—it just seems to go for an almost “wall-of-sound” mentality that is super-untight and therefore loses the precise/funk sound that I have always associated with techno. It’s this kind of stuff that makes me understand why people bitch about the state of hard techno (though I feel it is the exception rather than the rule).

[slavestudios]

bear in mind, records are even more for the floor than ever. not so much trax, as 6 min dj tools to layer & manipulate.

i love the overloaded stuff, but its for a club & thats that. i wouldnt stick it on if i was checkin emails at 10 am. i'll have Dj Krush or the like.

at the same time, when i go to a club, i want to hear dancefloor trax, not individual songs.


either way, the backlash has well & truly got going. it was only a matter of time (and releases) before it kicked off ;)


even a bad reaction is better than none at all :)

[killarava2day]

Kremer certainly springs to mind...

[Paul Zykotik]

Kremer was who I thought of straight away as well. Bought one record of his, never felt the need to buy another.

I still rate what the likes of Kay D Smith are doing, although that has the danger of becoming a limited sound - but then that's the same for most producers I'd have thought, the challenge is being able to vary things and maintain quality.

[Numeric]

I love the hard s**t, but agree that some artists are losing their way a little when it comes to producing harsh abrasive techno...

[Technology]

very very true. all of the above..

I spend alot of time in Germany and I have to say the HAKKE and BRIGHTON stuff they are now getting into is unbelievabely hard..no Soul and no funk...but then I have to say a good 30-40% of the audience(in certain areas) are really into this so I guess its a case of what the crowd want but its not for me.. ;)

[Esox Lucius]

most hard german techno bores me to death..no soul to it at all, hard for hards sake.

[jonnyspeed]

Not really a fan of very hard techno - but to me there are two things that differentiates good from bad (imo):

1. Quality of production reducing that dull bottom end and confused shhh shhh shhh top-end
2. Percussion Programming rather than 1 loop with filtering


...and there has been very little great hard techno about, when compared to acid, ghetto or wonk (again IMO)

[Tiptoe]

yep agree with everything everyone has said. I have been getting a bit bored with it for a while. It might be me just been a music geek but i love to just sit there and listen to a tune and think how well made and structured a tune is and with the majority of hard techno being produced it just seem's like mindless distortion. Think this is why am getting into the darker side of things eg wunsch mullero reeko.

[jonnyspeed]

Kremer... bought one record of his, never felt the need to buy another.

Completely agree - never seen why people rate him!

[jonnyspeed]

Comat Skill - you need shooting for how bad the production is! ;)

[TripleX]

I agree.
i like it hard, but a 155bpm beat with nuttin but highhats and silly samples, doesn´t make a track hard :roll: (kremer´s stuff for example).
it´s impossible to mix anyways, try to mix two tunes like that, it sounds just crappy...

but anyways there´s still good stuff coming out aswell, Chris noise´s last releases for example, I really liked those

[The Overfiend]

Kremer was who I thought of straight away as well. Bought one record of his, never felt the need to buy another.

I still rate what the likes of Kay D Smith are doing, although that has the danger of becoming a limited sound - but then that's the same for most producers I'd have thought, the challenge is being able to vary things and maintain quality.

I don't put the Drizzly boyz in the same category to be honest, specially Katz n Kay D!

[dtl]

but anyways there´s still good stuff coming out aswell, Chris noise´s last releases for example, I really liked those

Do you mean the one on Fuizeball? His rmx of "rock your own show"? Absolutely belting intelligent schranz.

Anyone heard of OBI? His label Tekk Tribe? I kicked myself now for liking the stuff few months back... Soulless at it best.[/quote]

[Paul Zykotik]

I don't put the Drizzly boyz in the same category to be honest, specially Katz n Kay D!

Sorry, I haven't quite got what ye mean - you think they're better or worse?

I think they've put out some awesome tunes over the last few years.

[TripleX]

but anyways there´s still good stuff coming out aswell, Chris noise´s last releases for example, I really liked those

Do you mean the one on Fuizeball? His rmx of "rock your own show"? Absolutely belting intelligent schranz.

Anyone heard of OBI? His label Tekk Tribe? I kicked myself now for liking the stuff few months back... Soulless at it best.[/quote]

yes i do.
the noise track on BITSHIFT003, is good too, I love these effects he uses..
don´t like OBI aswell, the tracks are all too similar
cheers

[JACKSTAR]

What I think the problem is that these producers lack proper equipment and outboard and totally rely on the power of the PC and that damn fruityloops. I know you can get something good out of pure PC power but at the end of the day it all sounds to digital and plain.

P.

[Numeric]

The better produced hard s**t still does it for me though...

Leo Laker is the man...

:clap:

[The Overfiend]

So essentially it's almost like punk music.
Random people who pic up a pc turn the tempo on fruity to 150 and hope the shit brick spits out a gold terd?

And Paul I was saying that Drizzly and the other boys are'nt even in the same category. Drizzly Rules.

[The Overfiend]

What I think the problem is that these producers lack proper equipment and outboard and totally rely on the power of the PC and that damn fruityloops. I know you can get something good out of pure PC power but at the end of the day it all sounds to digital and plain.

P.

I agree but what about the rest of us who can't afford to buy all the "proper kits" we would love to have but still try to belt out intelligent stuff. Fine fruity make be the black sheep of production, but look at some producers today making top notch techno with it. I.e. Ze Mig, Zahn... I know there are plenty more. I'm offended by the comment because I feel it's a generalization of if you use fruity you suck. And yes I respect the shit out of Jack Star so please anyone else please don't misconstrue my words.

[stefano1981]

It's nothing to do with digital production methods, it's to do with lack of innovation on the producers part. Stop over-compressing stuff and it will stop sounding samey.

[Clarkus]

but anyways there´s still good stuff coming out aswell, Chris noise´s last releases for example, I really liked those

Yeah, i like chris noise stuff. Big fan of stereo pumkin ep. :clap:

[JACKSTAR]

I was not dissing Fruityloops because I have heard some good tracks made with it but i've also heard alot of bad sounding records made with fruityloops too. I know alot of people cannot afford hardware & outboard but we all know everyone can get hold of cracked copies of good software programmes & fx to maybe brighten up these tracks. You know I love these producers as I play 70% of there records but I agree after a while they can sound a little too similar and maybe the odd bassline would'nt go a miss.

P.

[Paul Zykotik]

And Paul I was saying that Drizzly and the other boys are'nt even in the same category. Drizzly Rules.

Good stuff - my fault, brain isn't quite working today!

[Patrick DSP]

don't you think that the minimal techno guys say this shit about us already?

To each their own.

Personaly, i don't like uber distortion and tracks that are basicly well, tracks. pointless pieces of work that go nowhere and have no rhyme or reason to them. This isn't minimal, crap, bleep, "i'm art cool" techno; layering 2,3, or 4 of these tracks ontop of eachother to get some substance out of it sounds like poo. But at the end of the day it's a personal thing, i'm pretty sure by now if there wasn't a market for it, then there wouldn't be this many labels putting this kind of style out.

[Patrick DSP]

and be nice to combat skill!!

(i have a remix coming out on #4) ;)

[jonnyspeed]

What I think the problem is that these producers lack proper equipment and outboard and totally rely on the power of the PC and that damn fruityloops. I know you can get something good out of pure PC power but at the end of the day it all sounds to digital and plain.

P.

Nar man, you just need a good sound card at a couple of hundred notes. Look at Martyn Hare and lot of the stuff on Genero - all done in Fruity or Reason. Wonderfully produced and very warm. Yer can do a very nice set-up with a grand and a copy of Kazaa to get you going and buy yer software licences when you start releasing.

[The Overfiend]

What I think the problem is that these producers lack proper equipment and outboard and totally rely on the power of the PC and that damn fruityloops. I know you can get something good out of pure PC power but at the end of the day it all sounds to digital and plain.

P.

Nar man, you just need a good sound card at a couple of hundred notes. Look at Martyn Hare and lot of the stuff on Genero - all done in Fruity or Reason. Wonderfully produced and very warm. Yer can do a very nice set-up with a grand and a copy of Kazaa to get you going and buy yer software licences when you start releasing. ;) :rambo:

[eyes without a face]

I can see both arguments here, but as an avid Fruity user i agree that professional sounding tracks can be created with a bit of hard work, and its been proved, but i can see the point Paul is making.

[Adverse]

[quote=dirty_bass]you can be so much more disturbing and hard, when you slow it down a bit, and put a lot of thought into sound design, rather than the old "oh just get any old synth and distort the barsteward" attitude.

i find slobodan is a master at this, chris mccormack too.

[Adverse]

What I think the problem is that these producers lack proper equipment and outboard and totally rely on the power of the PC and that damn fruityloops. I know you can get something good out of pure PC power but at the end of the day it all sounds to digital and plain.

P.

****ING BINGO

[Adverse]

i agree with mark btw.

and i'll say that it's just so boring to me.

also let me say, germans like robert natus can do whatever he likes and it always sounds key cause the mixdowns are always butter. in fact i'd love to hear his take on all this.

but i've heard some lousy tracks man.. and they couldn't cut porcelain or some shit. terrible.

i hope i get ragged on, cause this goes back to the whole damn quailty control issue i brought up a long ass time ago.

it's not so much the content that irks (read: makes me chuckle) me it's the lack of production quality.

anyways. cheers.

[flipper]

That very loud Techno you guys talk about is called Schranz. Made by producers like Tomask Gee, Dj Amok and Mhonolog.
You like it or not.
Do you like soft Techno or both Hard and soft Techno then you better go to parties where they spin Dub Techno or Minimal Techno.
Germany is known to be loud.

[The Overfiend]

That very loud Techno you guys talk about is called Schranz. Made by producers like Tomask Gee, Dj Amok and Mhonolog.
You like it or not.
Do you like soft Techno or both Hard and soft Techno then you better go to parties where they spin Dub Techno or Minimal Techno.
Germany is known to be loud.

thanks for clearing that up for us :doh:

[DJPAUZE]

Well, in terms of the original post, Mark you are not alone. Alot of people here are noticing the same things you are. The Super Hard Techno or as the Germans call it "Shranz". is definately hiting the record stores hard atm.

We are seeing countless labels/releases coming from everywhere into the record stores across the globe.

Now do I see a problem with it? Well basically heres my call:

Some of the releases that get out there will sell well. Maybe in our hearts they just arent quality releases but the fact of the matter is that there are alot of people that have different opinions and we just have to understand that.

I myself play alot of hard techno so for me its a plus as there will be an odd release that comes out thats a corker and I can add it to my collection.

So all and all its a plus in my books. I just hope that in the future the guys that are using the Fruity Loops get a lil more creative, dont be afraid to experiment or even ask the guys who have mastered the program for help.

Peace Yall
PauZe :twisted:

[dirty_bass]

I love hard techno. But this schranze just isn`t hard. It`s just compressed and distorted.

You can spray a whole room with an Uzi, make a lot of noise, and hardly do any damage.

Or you can go in with a sledge hammer, and batter those phuckers, methodically, and with cold calculation, until every one of em lays bleeding on the floor.

Thats my analogy, beat that!!!! :evil:

[The Divide]

Or you can go in with a sledge hammer, and batter those phuckers, methodically, and with cold calculation, until every one of em lays bleeding on the floor.

Thats my analogy, beat that!!!! :evil:

****ing awesome man! Ime on your side :twisted:

[The Overfiend]

I'll co sign that!

[crime]

Funny how you were all biggin it up a few months ago :lol:

Sven Wittinkind and Frank Kvitta and all those guys are cool people though, we partied HARD in Russelsheim (Their home town), and they have a lot of respect for other music, I mean I was dropping shit like Cristian Vogel "Dungeon master" and Sven come up saying "Ja man, Cristian Fogel (how they pronounce "Vogel" in german) Das ist der Hammer ja" so I don't think they're close minded, I think they need to broaden their horizons with their productions though, they're only young guys, buzzing off what's going on, so maybe it just takes a bit of time and influence for them to do something different...
I gotta say though, music aside, those guys ROCKED party wise @ Das Rind.... Had a really good time...

[Methodixxx]

I've been trying to make this point for quite a while now (no biggin' up here :lol: )... In Sydney there was sort of an ethos of hard for the sake of being hard within certain crews over the last few years and nobody got what I meant when I was crapping on about it (Dirty Bass - spot on analogy man, exactly my point)... And yeah, the tracks from certain camps are just so predictably boring and flat that I can't see how anyone even considers it hard... And again, Adverse, spot on, Natus can do it when he likes cause he produces it so well that it does have depth and substance, and it does make it impact more...

But.... each to their own and all that...



Heehee DTL - I bet you see what I was saying back then about OBI now ;)

[killarava2day]

Well, in terms of the original post, Mark you are not alone. Alot of people here are noticing the same things you are. The Super Hard Techno or as the Germans call it "Shranz". is definately hiting the record stores hard atm.

The problem is, not that it's probably a problem, that this type of music is walking off the shelves. All the German guys, Kremer et al, hmmm....I don't know, it's an interesting point. Supply and demand as to say, and the market wants the 'schranze' and people are going crazy over it, regardless to the fact that obviously informed dudes like you guys query the production levels, to the most part though, alot of people, including DJs don't really give a shite.

[Dustin Zahn]

I think its comes down to much how time they put into their tracks. I think DJ Amok said in a thread that he gets the main loop/idea done in about 15 minutes?? I'm not calling him out or pointing towards him, but just using as an example. A lot of those producers probably knock stuff out relatively fast as well. Sometimes our best tracks are banged out in an hour but if you consistently finish tracks right away they're probably going to be rather lacking.

[serox]

i like some of the amok, whitterkind, chris noise stuff. really oving away from boring loops tho. really feeling some leo laker stuff and many other unknown artists who are making some good hard techno that changes loads. really feel it. mixing this kind of stuff with doomcore is a killah.

anyone know any other people who are mixing hard dark techno with doom?

[serox]

i thought 'schranz' = techno.

[h.a.r.d.s.i.g.n.a.l]

what you people are talking about is a "taste" issue...

an entire genre is "sh*t" just cuz it isn't what you like?

pretty narrow minded if you ask me. i've never written a style off because of a particular producer...Beethoven is to "overground"....f*ck classical music...

[dirty_bass]

No body has said the genre is Shiiiite. But that the majority of stuff is pretty lame.
There is some very good schranze, but you can tell it has been thought about and stands out way above the rest.

[h.a.r.d.s.i.g.n.a.l]

No body has said the genre is Shiiiite. But that the majority of stuff is pretty lame.

and the difference would be....??

[dirty_bass]

The difference is that schranz can be very good. but as a style it attracks the younger punter (cos it`s brash and aggressive) and a lot of the producers are young, and lack the production experience to put out real quality. Just more imitating each other.

Whereas if eveyone had of said it was outright shiiiite, we wouldn`y have gone into such depth about the over use of compression, unimaginative percussion etc.
We just would have done this

"Schranz is Shite"

Which is ignorant.

[h.a.r.d.s.i.g.n.a.l]

the point i'm trying to make is that it's all just so much opinion. just because you or Mark or whoever, thinks most schranz is lame because certain producers tend to sound the same, or it's overcompressed or distorted or whatever, doesn't make it so. anymore than that schranz is "good" just because i might say it is.

[MangaFish]

personally i think your both right.

i think theres alot to be said for original material and DB has a very valid point. but i think the word 'lame' was perhaps not the wisest choice of words.

at the end of the day this stuff does what it says on the tin and it does it well. so in that respect its not going to be 'lame' to the audience its targeted at

[dirty_bass]

Fair enough, lame may have been a poor choice. But I meant, run of the mill, thoughtless etc, and yes it serves a purpose, but so do boy bands :lol:

[The Divide]

I agree with whoever said it doesn’t really sound hard. It doesn’t without contrast, I would rather go back to listening to gabber, at least there’s lots going on in the programming and some nice ideas. Lots of aggression and variation (and sometimes cheesiness).

I think they just need to slow it down and fill in the gaps. Like how techno used to be, it doesn’t have to be fast to be hard. Also techno is much better to dance to when when its in 4 beats and the there’s a wickid groove. There’s more room for the dj to add to it.

Dont get me wrong tho, I love big upfront kicks and warm but nasty dynamics. I personally dont feel its all that bad, if it gets kids into techno then great. Hopefully they will move onto a much more serious and expressive side of techno. Its also not something I feel I am forced to listen to when I am in a club

[DJAmok]

So it´s basically a quality issue right?


Well we ain´t got anythin comparable to Curved Pressings in Germany, nothing even close. It ain´t really our fault, if the bottom end is messed up on the cuts or the highs are too damp. But don´t worry, I´m lookin into doifferent pressing cutting options atm

And productionwise... well give us a break, it´s our first year and I would say we definately improved our production quality over the course of it.

Don´t believe me? http://www.djamok.net/djamok/DJ%20Amok%20-%20Nightmare%202.wav here´s an unmastered wav file. So tell me, is it missing bass? nope. Missing highs? no. Repetitive, boring, loopy 5min production? Not by a long shot. And Arkus P., Wittekind, Seema, Frank and Viper have been very creative lately working hard on making sick techno, that is not repetitive or distorted to hell. Just wait for the new releases coming out this fall, you´ll be pleasantly surprised

[jonnyspeed]

My answer is... you can not afford NOT to be on curver pusher. you tunes just sound like shit next to everything else - and punters don't like it. Vertually every recordshop I've been in in london slags off the sound quality of Combat Skill.

Sorry!

[basslinejunkie]

his hands are tied,imagine how much itd cost him 2 use curve pusher

[dtl]

Well, Amok mentioned he makes only few hundreds euros from each release on Artillery, that is after selling over 1000 copies, it makes sense if you look at the prices on Web-records, 6 euros for 1 record is laughable.

I too suggested Curve Pusher, but then it would defo increase the cost to elimuate any gross profit, tho I find it hard to believe there isnt a decent German presser, where do Kiddaz get their tuens pressed then? The Suck My Deck album is a chunk of a vinyl. Very nicely pressed.

Eric.

[h.a.r.d.s.i.g.n.a.l]

his hands are tied,imagine how much itd cost him 2 use curve pusher

i think that's one of the biggest problems is nobody except for a select few here have produced, mastered and cut vinyl. unless you have money to burn, it costs every cent you have to put that sh*t out. if it wasn't for smaller labels like Combat and producers like Amok, techno would stagnate. if we wank and moan that everyone doesn't sound like Curve Pusher, it'll fade away without ever having a chance to evolve quality-wise. and THAT would be f**kin lame.

if you like it at all, support it. if you don't, shut the f**k up. simple.

[dirty_bass]

Hmmm, lets not confuse curve pusher with curved pressings.

Lawrie does a good cut at Curve Pusher, if you get him to do it BUT he cuts to laquer.
You are better off going to one of a number of german companies who do direct to metal mastering, which will end up, if you are based in germany, cheaper and better.

[h.a.r.d.s.i.g.n.a.l]

Hmmm, lets not confuse curve pusher with curved pressings.

my bad. i was thinking Immersion, and in my zeal to get my thots out i mis-spoke...

[basslinejunkie]

:doh: i always do that

[Dustin Zahn]

All music and preferences aside, if a label can't afford to sell the public a decent product they don't belong in business. Curve Pusher isn't terribly expensive (imo) and mastering can make or break a track (take notes chester beatty). Unless you're a decent sized producer or on a good label, you're probably only going to make a few hundred to 1,000 euros/dollars tops. I'd rather just spend the extra money and be respected for a better product rather than making a few bucks off of a shitty product. A label and producer should take pride in their music! The whole product, tracks, mastering, art, etc. all represent the artist and label.

[DJAmok]

Takin pride in your music is one thing, risiking every penny you every earned in your shitty life to press 400 records at a mediocre german pressing plant, the only profit being selling em on ebay for 10 euro a piece at first is another.

I did the calculatios, even if I pressed my 1500 copies at Curved Pressings and sold every one of em, I´d still be losing money. It´s not the pressing that is expensive (actually the price is very reasonable) it´s the shipping to Germany.

I couldn´t afford it all the time, but now I might even take the blow and have each release pressed at Curved Pressings, limit each to 1000 copies and get em out on good quality vinyl. There´s no real money to be made off it anyways, so who cares about winning or losing a few hundred euros. Everyone loved my Kne Deep which was mastered at Curved Pressings, so I think that´s the way I´ll go.

[MARKEG]

I'd seriously recommend going to curve pusher for cutting mate. Lawrie just seems to have a way with hard techno. I mean the DIFFERENCE with our stuff is just staggering. When our tracks are cut somewhere else they just seem to loose the attitude. Lawrie has it spot on for hard techno without a doubt.

Actually, Can I just get something straight here. A few ppl seem to have put me in the category of not liking 'Schranz' because of what other ppl said after my initial post. Well if you read it I'm not talking about Schranz. To me Schranz is hard techno. And I'm definitely not talking about hard techno cause I make it ;) I play Sven's stuff everywhere. What's I'm talking about is (well a typical one I mean is the A1 of this new Combat Skill by Frank). It's this one beat looped stuff I mean. Perhaps I should have explained myself better. And yeah, I think I would rather listen to gabba like Fernando said.

You know, it sounds so digital and souless when hard techno is pushed to this extreme. Amok, you know I like some of your stuff but remember when you send me your cd (some of it I really liked) but I said about distortion? I really think some people 'over' distort and they think that's the key to hardness. But surely distorting the shit out of all the parts in the track means you get this 'fuzz' of nothingness? It might sound good on 17 pills and a bag of speed :twisted: but i'm just not getting it.

I think this is a big problem in hard techno right now - especially with more ppl getting access to being able to make music out of their bedrooms. I've always said 'controlled' distortion is the key to techno production. But now we're having brand new producers who've heard the effect of distortion on a downloaded crack plugin and think - wow, I'm making hard techno.

See what I mean?

[Dustin Zahn]

Takin pride in your music is one thing, risiking every penny you every earned in your shitty life to press 400 records at a mediocre german pressing plant, the only profit being selling em on ebay for 10 euro a piece at first is another.

Right. I guess that's the line every producer needs to find between being an artist and having a hobby, or making money off their work. I went to an art show/post-rave last night where some of the art exhibitions probably cost them a few hundred dollars to make each. While the projects are for sale, quite a few of them probably won't sell. It's all about how much you want to sacrifice. I agree, losing money only to have distro's and record shop make money is a real drag.



I did the calculatios, even if I pressed my 1500 copies at Curved Pressings and sold every one of em, I´d still be losing money. It´s not the pressing that is expensive (actually the price is very reasonable) it´s the shipping to Germany.
Very weird. A few of us in the U.S. manage our labels over in Europe, despite the shipping costs back and fourth over the pond there is still potential to make $500-1000 on a release if you sell all of it. I'd advise working with Curvepusher and Mpo.



There´s no real money to be made off it anyways, so who cares about winning or losing a few hundred euros.
That's the exact message I was trying to portray in my last post.

People should take a look at their record collection. Ever notice how some of the most professional looking and sounding vinyls happen to be a bit more successful sales-wise? While this correlation isn't always there, every little bit counts and it really shows when someone picks up a record at the shop. That's just my personal opinion.

[DJAmok]

Yes, it really is true the one´s sticking out are about 75% curve pusher and maybe 15% german and 10% french.

but like I said... I could be selling 4000, with the shipping costs and the price you get from german distributors and after paying the artists, I´d still lose money. Shipping is 250 pounds per 1000 records, that plus the price of the cutting and pressing is a bit more expensive as well. (I´ve pressed records for as cheap as 1000 Euro / 1000 pieces including the cut!)

[jonnyspeed]

Simple as this. I ain't ever gonna but Combat Skill if it continous to be so bad quality. When I was given a copy of #2 by somebody I just laughed and said no thanks - the reply = "I know, it makes my rig sound its ****ed - you mix it people walk off because of the distortion."

[jonnyspeed]

Yes, it really is true the one´s sticking out are about 75% curve pusher and maybe 15% german and 10% french.

but like I said... I could be selling 4000, with the shipping costs and the price you get from german distributors and after paying the artists, I´d still lose money. Shipping is 250 pounds per 1000 records, that plus the price of the cutting and pressing is a bit more expensive as well. (I´ve pressed records for as cheap as 1000 Euro / 1000 pieces including the cut!)

Why do you have to use German distributors? You can press and distribute from the same country!

You can talk euro this, euro that. None of your releases have been worth 1 euro. I would happily pay £7.50 (UKP) = >10 euro if it was clear and punchy rather than just shit.

[DJAmok]

well, luckily opinions vary on that....

[Sunil]

I did the calculatios, even if I pressed my 1500 copies at Curved Pressings and sold every one of em, I´d still be losing money. It´s not the pressing that is expensive (actually the price is very reasonable) it´s the shipping to Germany..

Why don't you get a UK distributor to help ease the load then? Elektronik or someone?

[dtl]

You can talk euro this, euro that. None of your releases have been worth 1 euro. I would happily pay £7.50 (UKP) = >10 euro if it was clear and punchy rather than just shit.

Creative Critic here! Give this man a dallor!

Eric.[/quote]

[crime]

he cuts to laquer.
You are better off going to one of a number of german companies who do direct to metal mastering, which will end up, if you are based in germany, cheaper and better.

Direct to metal is rubbish, know people who have used it, and aparently the bass response is awful..
There are good cutting rooms in germany, Dubplates + Mastering in Berlin springs to mind, not sure of the names of others, but I'm sure there's a few about...

And RE: Distribution from the uk, what's the point when you're shipping straight back to mainland europe, and getting less money per unit?... I would have thought if you're German, german distribution with good export contacts would be best. you'll get more money per unit in the territory that you'll sell the most records in (i.e. germany)

Bottom line is, you don't make any money out of records until you've done at least 800 units, possibly even more if you're on a P+D.

[gunjack]

"crimeBottom line is, you don't make any money out of records until you've done at least 800 units, possibly even more if you're on a P+D.


yup.

[The Overfiend]

You can talk euro this, euro that. None of your releases have been worth 1 euro. .

A tad bit harsh man. ease up please.

[jonnyspeed]

was a tad. sorry :oops:

[h.a.r.d.s.i.g.n.a.l]

well, luckily opinions vary on that....
haha....capital...

it's class vs. ass right here on the blackout network....stay tuned... :clap:

[dirty_bass]

Erm, direct to metal is the best way you can cut. You lose less quality in the reproduction process, because laquer degrades and is effected by temperature DMM can also be a louder cut due to less restrictions than vinyl with the material.. DMM all the way if the cutters know their job.

And I have just been to my distributers to pick up my promo`s.
I got a ton of this distorted schranz, and got back to the studio and began to go through everything to pick out the playa`s.

Lots of Kremer, wittekind, bittshift, combat skill, LFR, expanded, overdrive etc. It took me an hour to go through this stuff, and it all sounded the same.

Some of the production is admittedly, quite well carried out, but there is more to techno than oompah oompah, boom-tish, boom-tish, rise in dynamic during break aaaaaaand boom-tish boom-tish.
It became a bit obvious as to how things were going when my missus popped her head round the door to say "how many times are you going to play that same record?", when I had played about 12.

I try to understand all music, but really I think the schranz thing needs an injection of something to knock it out of it`s current locked groove

[davethedrummer]

i have this argument with a certain producer i work with all the time.
i reckon distortion does not make things sound hard
i reckon it just makes the mix sound "fuzzy" and the more distortion you use the more fuzzy and unclear things get.

clarity in the mix and ideas and arrangement of your music wll make things sound hard and essentially give it that energy.

i'm not saying i don't ever use distortion but i try to only use it when necessary to create that tough effect
i very rarely use it on kiks or hi hats 'cos that just sounds shit imo.

but i've been thinking all this for a while about hard techno in general.

it's just that a lot of it really isn't doing it for me any more
i just think we need some new ideas and to be honest i'm getting really sick of the know it all attitude everyone seems to have about techno these days and the strong opinions without compromise.

i don't want to paint it all black
but at the moment i'm looking for more musical things and funkier things
so hard banging stuff is just irrelevant to me

the odd one maybe but that's it.

you know as an after thought,

what ever happened to making MUSIC? not just turning out TRAX

i think thats where the difference lies between old and new skool

[Drago]

I just wanted to add a few words, without sounding like I am getting into any arguments or taking anyone's side.....here goes....

I read what Mark said in the beginning and agree to an extent that some of the Harder Techno (schranz if you will) that is coming out of late is very similar and does not have much "soul" to it. But there must be a market for it otherwise it would not be released.....I think that if you don't like it pass it up and someone else will buy it I am sure.

I also feel that it is better to have a couple of tracks produced on a poorer quality vinyl (like Combat Skill, and some of the other newer labels coming out of Germany) than not have them produced at all due to the cost to the person releasing them. With all the equipment we are able to obtain now, is it not possible to use the EQ's or some other device linked to your mixer to soften the sound slightly ? I think it is, and you could spend a few minutes listening to one of these "poorly cut" tracks, and spend a further few minutes working out how you can play with the EQ to make it more "Listener Friendly" instead of just passing up on the track because you know that it wasn't mastered/cut in a certain place. What about all the dub plates and cuts that were being made back in the day when Curvepusher wasn't around....what was the sound quality like on those ? I'll bet if the sound quality wasn't all that good the DJ would have played around with the EQ to do exactly what I mentioned above - make it more "Listener Friendly".

I personally bought Combat Skill 2 due to the tracks on the B side, which I think are stonking tracks....but the A side doesn't do anything for me and does fall into that category of being hard for the sake of it. (In my eyes anyway, but probably not in the Producers eyes). I am grateful to the producers pushing out these tracks on these so called "poorer cuts", as we have an opportunity to hear some quality tracks which lets face it - would not be available to us if all these guys and gals only had one option to release them. :clap: :clap: :clap: Thank you.

On a final note, I have been playing around with some of the Jungle I used to mix a while back and they are by far nowhere near as well cut as some of the Techno I have in my box.....I still play them though ;) Hope I haven't babbled too much, and made no sense...which I probably have :scratch: :lol:

[VOMATRON]

hey AMOK...i really like the sound of that new track! i heard a lot of your other stuff...didnt like it much...but with this one, you really did something mean...this gives me sorta the same feel as some of the andreas krämer(not kremer) releases, like nachtpsychose and the likes

soundds like youve really experimented a lot on this one, i like it a lot. keep going on, big respect from here...man this is some hard sh"#€""t :)

[VOMATRON]

hard as in the non-fuzzy wuzzy way...i guess since noone has given amok a comment on it is because they didnt feel like downloading a wav file?....well...people check i out thats all i can say, cause its sounding good

[DJ OCRAM]

:lol:

[The Overfiend]

:lol:

I'm definitely curious to your take on this situation based on the fact that your label was mentioned more than once.

[DJ OCRAM]

:lol:

I'm definitely curious to your take on this situation based on the fact that your label was mentioned more than once.
Well, that is a opinion not a fact!
Fact about my Label is that every csk release (including lot of re-presses of them) where sold out after few days,
and i have re-orders for every release, yet! (PS. 800 of CSK002 will be repressed in next weeks again ;))

and Fact about "German Schranz" is, that it booms!
Or why we are so successful?

Facts, If you like it, or not ;)

but i respect your opinion ;)

[gumpy green]

(hard) techno is about having a pallete of many styles from distortion/bleepy/melodic/just down right bang/whatever you want.

then you mix them with others to create your own sound.

so what if the production is just a loop with the odd filter...if thats what i want to drop at that point of my set to create "that feeling" in the club ill use it, no matter how easy it was to make...all i promise to do is to add my dj sound/mix to it.

its up to me as th dj to flip it in a way that IS unique.

ive nothing against crazy fuked up distortion(altho some is distorted a bit much IMO), i mix it with other non distoted shit to give it melody/groove etc.....

BUT listening to a whole set of distorted techno IS boring as fuk, so would be listening to a whole set of minimal shit.........

Use techno like a painter uses colours in his pallete.

And give these younger producer a little break.....ther young, still learning, and im sure in a few years will be better and discover new techniques.

And amok- that new shit is wicked.....hard but with some good thought...

I luv most forms of techno but i AM LUVIN the good shranz at the mo..

Take the "clubby baby" remixes(shranz)....now that is quality fuked up nonsence that send the tek heads BALLISTIK....more of that please..

[dirty_bass]

Yeah, Amok, I enjoyed that wav, the production was a little clearer, and some interesting breaks and stuff occurred. Nice Bassline.
But I still think, with this stuff you have so little room in the mix, you can`t really alter the swing of the beat. Cos if a sound gets too close to the kick within the pattern structure, it is over compressed.
So you end up locked to the oompah oompah boom-tish boomtish
Hard House does the same thing, oompah oompah.
Your production has come on in leaps and bounds sisnce your first release, and I hope it doesn`t seem like everyone is a having a dig, but I like a bit of this type of music, but in the same way that hard house trapped itself in a sound and died, this may happen to schranz. Maybe you could lead the way??? try breaking up the beat a bit, and changing the emphasis away from the marching on and off beat thing.

[HardtraX]

In my personal opinion, techno tracks by Adam Beyer, Liebing, Umek, Chris McCormack, Ben Sims etc. are overdone. It's too old now, it became boring over the years. :roll: Now, Schranz is a style which is a lot more dynamic - it's got more punch, more drive... I just love it! :love: Okay, so we are all young producers but we don't lack experience. I am producing techno music since 7 years now - it's my passion. I've listened to Glenn Wilson, Chris Liebing, Umek etc. before and the music's not bad (okay, except for Liebing 'cause he sucks) but now I need something new. In Germany, there's a split in the techno scene between those who like Schranz and those who don't but fortunately the Schranz scene is still growing (not only in Germany).

Oh yeah, I forgot: a whole set of crazy distorted techno isn't as boring as a set of looped percussive techno tracks...

[dirty_bass]

Oh yeah, I forgot: a whole set of crazy distorted techno isn't as boring as a set of looped percussive techno tracks...

And there lies the problem. People are blinkered and there are too many tunnel vision DJ`s.
Yes a set of looped percussion is boring, as is a set of schranz (crazy?), the secret to a good mix surely is a mix of styles, embracing the best elements from all the sub genre`s of techno.

[dtl]

Yes a set of looped percussion is boring, as is a set of schranz (crazy?), the secret to a good mix surely is a mix of styles, embracing the best elements from all the sub genre`s of techno.

And couple breaks and electro tuneage wouldnt hurt either ;)

Eric.

[gumpy green]

Oh yeah, I forgot: a whole set of crazy distorted techno isn't as boring as a set of looped percussive techno tracks...

And there lies the problem. People are blinkered and there are too many tunnel vision DJ`s.
Yes a set of looped percussion is boring, as is a set of schranz (crazy?), the secret to a good mix surely is a mix of styles, embracing the best elements from all the sub genre`s of techno.

yup...i just saw paul langley the at the weekend......just played hard techno all the way through with no breaks or flava/meldoy added..... was just boomboom all the way through, was boring me at times even tho i did like most of the tunes he was playing.....i was just thinking--"will you switch it up a little, please"........afterall when i go for a chinese i like to have a taste of everything not just a big bowl of lemon chicken....

have a techno banquette not just one dish. ;)

[h.a.r.d.s.i.g.n.a.l]

I also feel that it is better to have a couple of tracks produced on a poorer quality vinyl than not have them produced at all due to the cost to the person releasing them.

exactly what i was trying to say.....just an intelligent, lucid version.... :clap:

[dirty_bass]

[/quote]have a techno banquette not just one dish.

haha, spot on.



what ever happened to making MUSIC? not just turning out TRAX

i think thats where the difference lies between old and new skool


Now that is what I`m talkin about.
Wisdom from the man himself.

[dirty_bass]

oops

[*muci*]

shranz is something special ;) and in germany and all over the europe is very listened ;) or you love it or you don't, or you have the feeling for it or you don't, you like it hard and pumping or melodic and easy....
it's nice that you express your opinnion about the producers and the music which is beeing sold very good ;)
you have to have respect for other hard techno/techno/schranz.. and know how to criticize them and why you criticize them. they make their music just like you do, with soul and lots of feelings.some of the saying here like 'schranz is shit' and so on.....where do you want to get with this??!!

have respect and you will be respected ;)

CSK,artilery,friendly fire, insane rec. and so on.... have great productions out ;) :lol:

greets from germany :lol:

[The Overfiend]

If you slow some down to 135 there's a four four beat a hat and static.
Real Creative guys. :dontevengothere:

[dirty_bass]

or you love it or you don't, or you have the feeling for it or you don't, you like it hard and pumping or melodic and easy

it`s not that black and white. I tend to embrace all music types. I like it both hard and pumping AND melodic and easy. I also like a bit of schranze (fast and distorted). But c`mon fellas mix it up a bit.

[TripleX]

CSK,artilery,friendly fire, insane rec. and so on.... have great productions out ;) :lol:



nobody denied that.....

[*muci*]

Comat Skill - you need shooting for how bad the production is! ;)

:neutral: :neutral:

[*muci*]

did i understand that wrong??

[Sunil]

In my personal opinion, techno tracks by Adam Beyer, Liebing, Umek, Chris McCormack, Ben Sims etc. are overdone. It's too old now, it became boring over the years. :roll: Now, Schranz is a style which is a lot more dynamic - it's got more punch, more drive... I just love it! :love: Okay, so we are all young producers but we don't lack experience. I am producing techno music since 7 years now - it's my passion. I've listened to Glenn Wilson, Chris Liebing, Umek etc. before and the music's not bad (okay, except for Liebing 'cause he sucks) but now I need something new. In Germany, there's a split in the techno scene between those who like Schranz and those who don't but fortunately the Schranz scene is still growing (not only in Germany).

Oh yeah, I forgot: a whole set of crazy distorted techno isn't as boring as a set of looped percussive techno tracks...

But you're saying you need something new? Schranz isn't new anymore and has run its course just as quick if not quicker than Beyer, Umek or any of those guys did with their stuff. This difference with Beyer and co. is that they branched out and made other styles, as the hard as nails stuff wasn't as interesting for them to stick at full time.. not to mention them having an ambition to be known as more than just hard techno producers. As for the Chris McCormack association I think that's a bit off, he's one producer who virtually always manages to turn up with something new and gobsmacking. And Chris Liebing? well, fair enough people have mixed opinions on what he's at these days but for **** sake he is the single most important influence on all of your Schranz scene, there is absolutely no doubting that... kind of strange the way you now diss him?

Btw. I am a fan of the Schranz sound but it's been released to beat the band, and hasn't really shown any signs of variation. Many hardcore fans of this stuff are now looking for a change, something with more depth. I admire the dedication that many of the Schranz producers have but all the dedication in the world isn't worth a shit if it's 20-30 producers all trying to sound like one another.. Granted there's a few exceptions to this but not many.

[TripleX]

did i understand that wrong??

no actually not, but that the exception i was talking about ;)

[MARKEG]

Comat Skill - you need shooting for how bad the production is! ;)

what an absolutely unproductive thing to say.

[The Overfiend]

You can talk euro this, euro that. None of your releases have been worth 1 euro. .

A tad bit harsh man. ease up please.

That's twice.........

[*muci*]

Comat Skill - you need shooting for how bad the production is! ;)

what an absolutely unproductive thing to say.

totally ;)

[h.a.r.d.s.i.g.n.a.l]

but for **** sake he is the single most important influence on all of your Schranz scene, there is absolutely no doubting that... kind of strange the way you now diss him?

i believe liebing is the one who coined the phrase "schranz" to begin with...

[Sunil]

but for **** sake he is the single most important influence on all of your Schranz scene, there is absolutely no doubting that... kind of strange the way you now diss him?

i believe liebing is the one who coined the phrase "schranz" to begin with...

Yeah he is, which makes it odd to see people within the Schranz scene slagging him off ?

[jonnyspeed]

man, one artist/label who I say their production/pressing is rubbish, based on actually listening to their tunes and being disappointed it had to go into the 'no thanks' pile, and I get abuse.

I also qualified the 1 euro comment by saying I would happily pay full import price if it was clear and punchy - not if you could write tunes.

And I buy stuff out of Germany that is nowhere near as dulled and fuzzed as Combat Skill.


:cry:

[DJ OCRAM]

And I buy stuff out of Germany that is nowhere near as dulled and fuzzed as Combat Skill.
:clap: :clap: :clap:

[DJ OCRAM]

i dont see any problem, if you dont like my records, you dont need to buy it ;)


but your reason is stupid! I released only one fuzzed track (by Frank Kvitta),
but this was the style of this track :rambo:

[Dustin Zahn]

Ah who cares which camp has advanced more. Both schranz and tribal techno haven't progressed in a couple years anyway. If you really want to hear some crazy shit going on right now, start digging through the minimal records. There are records coming out that are harder than any of the Glenn Wilson type stuff at about 5 bpm less and about 50 layers less. Less is more.

[dirty_bass]

Hmmm, this is getting a little too much like a slagging match.

I think a safe conclusion to make from all this is.....

A lot of peeps are seeing some stagnation within the hard techno/schranz/distorted techno scene.

Some of the producers are getting (understandably) defensive, but don`t seem to be picking anything up from this.

So we can all learn from this.

I made an effort and listened to a crate load of schranz and found some bits of gold in there.

But the producers can learn by developing their style away from kick-locked obvious production.

[The Overfiend]

I have to give Ocram credit.
His approach has been the most humble despite the slagging, he sits back and laughs because whether it's my taste, your taste, or his taste, It's selling. And at the end of the day he has achieved something that obviously people are enjoying. Yes that one track was static laden. No Me personally I don't prefer that type of techno, but it's selling and at this point I cannot fight that.
But what would make clear is that we respect each other here, as much as I may agree or disagree with peoples points we are not here to bash each other. I can imagine as a producer how I would feel if a random punter downgraded my art. I don't bash people but sway them in a better direction to try to help them progress. But bashing is not necessary or wanted here.

[Sunil]

I have to give Ocram credit.
His approach has been the most humble despite the slagging, he sits back and laughs because whether it's my taste, your taste, or his taste, It's selling. And at the end of the day he has achieved something that obviously people are enjoying. Yes that one track was static laden. No Me personally I don't prefer that type of techno, but it's selling and at this point I cannot fight that.
But what would make clear is that we respect each other here, as much as I may agree or disagree with peoples points we are not here to bash each other. I can imagine as a producer how I would feel if a random punter downgraded my art. I don't bash people but sway them in a better direction to try to help them progress. But bashing is not necessary or wanted here.

Well actually I am going to ask a question that I don't think is uncalled for.. why are the Combat Skill records just in a paper sleeve?

Personally I haven't found CSK to be cut as poorly as what some people have said, however it's obvious that it could be a little better.. this could be down to the problem Amok mentioned about the excess manufacturing costs perhaps? But is the lack of a cover also attributed to this same reason or what? There should be some basic standard that is expected of labels, and with the excess price of records these days to the punter I'm not surprised how some may react at being offered a product that is quite simply not up to scratch or incomplete. The gripes regarding the sound quality and now my one regarding the sleeve are ones I feel Ocram should explain, I like to see that he doesn't seem to have taken much offence to the negative comments regarding the records, but brushing off questions or advice completely could be foolish in my opinion...

[MARKEG]

you know, i made this topic so we could all talk about it and perhaps reach some really cool conclusions that helps the hard techno scene. the majority of ppl have been great - saying their piece and being totally mature and responsible about the situation. some however have not. their responses have been noted. a huge part of the rules of this board is respect for other members. don't worry, i've noted down who's not been respectful and if they do it again i'll have to do something about it.

anyway let's get back on with the matter in hand. ocram, nice 1 for being cool about this. i'm not slaggin your releases - some other members took the initiative on that :evil: - i play your stuff. but yeah specifically that a1 track by kvitta. i was surprised you put it on the a1. and that i think is what started the alarm bells ringing in my head. if you don't mind me asking why was it the a1? is that sort of thing really going down in germany at the mo? and why? and where?

[*muci*]

I have to give Ocram credit.
His approach has been the most humble despite the slagging, he sits back and laughs because whether it's my taste, your taste, or his taste, It's selling. And at the end of the day he has achieved something that obviously people are enjoying. Yes that one track was static laden. No Me personally I don't prefer that type of techno, but it's selling and at this point I cannot fight that.
But what would make clear is that we respect each other here, as much as I may agree or disagree with peoples points we are not here to bash each other. I can imagine as a producer how I would feel if a random punter downgraded my art. I don't bash people but sway them in a better direction to try to help them progress. But bashing is not necessary or wanted here.

Like MARK EG said, this topic was open that ppl would get somewhere with good constructive oppinions, to support not bash. Good said there, SummerOfSam. :clap:


Well actually I am going to ask a question that I don't think is uncalled for.. why are the Combat Skill records just in a paper sleeve?

:shock: :shock: :shock:
as the CSK records were flying lots around my head these last weeks didn't see one in just a paper sleeve.


greetz

[MangaFish]

cant see what difference it make what sleeve they are in. its the record your spinning after all. the rest is just fluff

[Sunil]

cant see what difference it make what sleeve they are in. its the record your spinning after all. the rest is just fluff

In that case let every record in the world not have sleeves on them, it would save everyone a few quid too :clap:

[dirty_bass]

Hmmm an aside really, but if these records are selling so well, then they should be able to afford the necessary production costs, ie sleeves, better cut etc.

[Chymera]

a proper sleeve is pretty important to me, it doesn't have to be anything fancy, like a printed one, although they make all the difference. But plain paper sleeves rip the whole time, and are a nuisance. :evil:

[DJ OCRAM]

Well actually I am going to ask a question that I don't think is uncalled for.. why are the Combat Skill records just in a paper sleeve?
That is no secret, it saves me lot of money! ;)
paper sleeve = 0,06€ and with a normal sleeve = 0,46€
example:
1500 x 0,40€ = 600€ (!!!)
2000 x 0,40€ = 800€ (!!!)

but I sold all Records with paper sleeves,
so it isnt importand witch Sleeve iam using!

For me is the Vinyl quality more importand!
I want bring excelent Tracks & excelent Artists on a excelent quality on my Label,
for doing this i found this way to save money for do it ...


ocram, nice 1 for being cool about this.
I have no Problem if someone dont likes this tracks or this style,
i must accept it ;)


i'm not slaggin your releases - some other members took the initiative on that :evil: - i play your stuff. but yeah specifically that a1 track by kvitta. i was surprised you put it on the a1. and that i think is what started the alarm bells ringing in my head. if you don't mind me asking why was it the a1? is that sort of thing really going down in germany at the mo? and why? and where?
It is a longer story why i use it on the A1, but i cant tell it here ;)

But about this Track, it is a oldie from Frank,
Frank showed it to me when he produced it for Rush,
Rush loved it, too and wanted press it on KneDeep.
But it taked long time so i asked if i can have this track, and i geted it,
because i love it! If it is the right A1 or not we can fight about it, hehe.
But how i telled you it has a reason ...

But the Idea from CSK003 was a "very hard distorted" (perfect track for it :lol:) vs. "a soft good to listening" (Patrik Skoog ;)) side, a try to combinate my loving Styles ;)
Maybe not a good try, but i tried it ;)

next Release (CSK004) will be mine, not very much goodnes i know,
but my very own thing (without any Ghostproducer or some other shit!)
I know that it dont will very much art, but own thing, with Remixes by Patrick DSP, Switchblade (Leo Laker) and O.B.I.
after than beginning with the CSK005 i will start to press lot of Split EPs,
CSK005 will be DJ Boss vs. Switchblade, i think good and more for the mass ;)

[djfurness]

this is reminding me of something the drum n bass scene is goin through at the moment.....drum n bass has a sub genre called 'clownstep' which is basically really really JUMP UP tunes...like silly noises in and that really energetic......and people are hatin it on internet sites because (admittedley) this is whats gettin played at nights the most.....the lovers of liquid funk (dnb equivalent of minimal techno) & tech step(adam beyer stuff) are flippping.....but really...theres nothin to flip about......tech step and liquid funk sell LOTS of units as well.....and theres specialist nights for these sub genres......
Now....I really really like this hard techno style...but I come from a hardcore techno background....but sorry....this music is hard....and it is good.....and it is selling.....but to be honest is it taking over?
this year so far ive only seen Amoks name on a flyer (and seen him he was amazing) out of all the supposed pioneers of this sound......ive seen on flyers...robert hood,surgeon (seen him he was great),liebing,claude young,the 65d mavericks,jamie bissmere,henrik b,mike humphreys,jeff mills,dave clarke......theyre not likely really to start whackin a whole set of wittekind/natus tunes are they?
dj rush is here saturday...but thats about it......I think people need to realise that techno has a lot of rooms for a lot of styles.....
I aint a producer which maybe is a hindrance but maybe isnt......hey.....your all producers and you make tunes....you probably will have diffrent insights to this.....but im from one of those schools where its simply 'if i like it,i like it'......i listen for great production.....and i know it when i hear it.......but sometimes it is just a case of liking a tune because someones had the time and effort to make it.....and hey....its not too bad

[Sunil]

Well actually I am going to ask a question that I don't think is uncalled for.. why are the Combat Skill records just in a paper sleeve?
That is no secret, it saves me lot of money! ;)
paper sleeve = 0,06€ and with a normal sleeve = 0,46€
example:
1500 x 0,40€ = 600€ (!!!)
2000 x 0,40€ = 800€ (!!!)

but I sold all Records with paper sleeves,
so it isnt importand witch Sleeve iam using!

For me is the Vinyl quality more importand!
I want bring excelent Tracks & excelent Artists on a excelent quality on my Label,
for doing this i found this way to save money for do it ...

Well at least you are up front about it :clap: But to me you are only offering half the package which is an inner sleeve only :nono: the outer cardboard sleeve is important too. There are actually cardboard/paper type sleeves that are called 'disco bags', they are a suitable compromise if you ever decide the pennies can stretch that far ;)

[Numeric]

Ah who cares which camp has advanced more. Both schranz and tribal techno haven't progressed in a couple years anyway. If you really want to hear some crazy shit going on right now, start digging through the minimal records. There are records coming out that are harder than any of the Glenn Wilson type stuff at about 5 bpm less and about 50 layers less. Less is more.

Word...

:clap:

[Drago]

Well at least you are up front about it :clap: But to me you are only offering half the package which is an inner sleeve only :nono: the outer cardboard sleeve is important too. There are actually cardboard/paper type sleeves that are called 'disco bags', they are a suitable compromise if you ever decide the pennies can stretch that far ;)

I have to be honest and state that the cardboard sleeve really shouldn't make a difference.....if the vinyl inside is worth keeping hold of you are able to buy the cardboard sleevs for next to nowt anyway. Or you can go to your local second hand record dealer and buy a load of cheap vinyl(which you then throw away obviously) and use the plain cardboard sleeves for your tunes. Problem sorted ;)

I personally have no problem with it.... :rambo:

[jonnyspeed]

i dont see any problem, if you dont like my records, you dont need to buy it ;)


but your reason is stupid! I released only one fuzzed track (by Frank Kvitta),
but this was the style of this track :rambo:

Lets agree to disagree on that one. I like your tunes just not final bits of plastic you put out as they are very amateur in quality.

[jonnyspeed]

don't worry, i've noted down who's not been respectful and if they do it again i'll have to do something about it.

There's me told. Mark, just PM me if you want me off the board.

[Numeric]

don't worry, i've noted down who's not been respectful and if they do it again i'll have to do something about it.

There's me told. Mark, just PM me if you want me off the board.

As if he wants you off the board...

I agree with you about the quality of certain pressings, and yes, it does sometimes completely spoil a good track. Just try to be a little more constructive when making a point...

[MARKEG]

i dont want you off the board you silly cunt :lol:

i just want some people to be a bit more productive, that's all...

i've gotta say it or else we turn into a horrible place ;)

[jonnyspeed]

Sorry - I will leave my come down at home next time. Appologies! BTW I love the Seema stuff.

(now I feel like a cunt... but I'm sure I'll get over it)

[Si the Sigh]

...what a cunt :roll:













:lol:

[TripleX]

:lol:

[poisoned antidote]

Sorry - I will leave my come down at home next time. Appologies! BTW I love the Seema stuff.

(now I feel like a cunt... but I'm sure I'll get over it)

ha ha...amok tought seema everthin she know's.

[DJ OCRAM]

Well at least you are up front about it :clap: But to me you are only offering half the package which is an inner sleeve only :nono: the outer cardboard sleeve is important too. There are actually cardboard/paper type sleeves that are called 'disco bags', they are a suitable compromise if you ever decide the pennies can stretch that far ;)
maybe it is importand, too. But i sold all records without it, too,
so i dont see any reason to change it ;) And if i change it,
i need to safe at artists, tracks, mastering and vinylquality :neutral:


Lets agree to disagree on that one. I like your tunes just not final bits of plastic you put out as they are very amateur in quality.
It is you opinion, but I dont think so :nono:, for me and lot of other people in my scene it sounds how it need to sounds!

No Bullshit! Lot of other Labelboss with bigger Labels want press in future the same way like me!

[jonnyspeed]

:roll: I guess I should STFU and stop making a twat of myself.

[HardtraX]

Well, for my part I decided to leave this forum. It makes no sense for me to continue this discussion. One last thing: Chris Liebing is the most influential man in the Schranz scene, I agree. But take a look at his crap productions (most of them made by ghost-producers by the way). "His" Sunglasses At Night Remix consists of a couple of samples from the original track with only 3 loops (!!!) from a German sample-disc called Techno Trance Essentials on top of it. Is this creative? The whole discussion is silly, 75% of your argumentions are ridiculous (although I agree on the mastering issue) - you simply lack background informations. This is my last post on this board. Bye! :dontevengothere:

P.S.: Marco (DJ Ocram) is absolutely right! :clap: I'm off now...

P.P.S.: Please delete my account. Thank you!

[dirty_bass]

hmmmm, well, if we are gonna go on the if it sells, then why try to make it better ting, then we are heading into hard house terrortory here. Techno is all about change and forward thinking.
I myself understand the whole sales based on winning formula thing myself, with my own label, and there is pressure there to keep with a winning formula. But I try with each record (whether you like it or not) to do something different, I could have easily kept making the same as my first release, but I am willing to take risks, and push myself (which is pretty dificult, as the two sides of my label sell to 2 different markets, hard techno and prog).
I think people are taking this the wrong way, we all get critisised, and rather than shut out the critisism, learn from it, and ask why it happens.
I would like to see the schranz type techno develope, I really liked it for a while, but it stagnated so quickly.
And as for the attitude of, "people bought all my records anyway, why should I make my product any better".
This will catch up with you eventually, you gotta keep the customer happy, and people have patience for a while, but I would think eventually punters will expect to see some kind of product developement rather than repetative cheapskateism.

[Rog]

[quote="dirty_bass"]Techno is all about change and forward thinking.quote]

Yo Steve, i just registered - will email a reply next week - busy busy!

I would just like to agree with the statement above - since i meet you i have searched further a field with my buying - my eyes have been opened as such.. i thank you for that, just the one comment made me realise something - and i appreciate it - critercism helps to "go forwrd!"

:love: DB002 is the chewn of change :love:

Anyway - must go say hello "to all!"

[lohki]

Sorry - I will leave my come down at home next time. Appologies! BTW I love the Seema stuff.

(now I feel like a cunt... but I'm sure I'll get over it)

ha ha...amok tought seema everthin she know's.

this is not the truth. you don't know her so don't tell something like this. :nono:

[Rog]

the odd hard german chewn in a tech set suits me, its just a matter of taste, plus i usually play it way below the zero... its just to fast.............................................. ............................ dush dush! :crackup:

[DJAmok]

ha ha...amok tought seema everthin she know's.

Before this rumor spreads.... I didn´t teach her everything she knows.

I tought her some basics, she developed her style on that.

I even learned a few things from her. Don´t underestimate her.....

[Traxx]

Ah who cares which camp has advanced more. Both schranz and tribal techno haven't progressed in a couple years anyway. If you really want to hear some crazy shit going on right now, start digging through the minimal records. There are records coming out that are harder than any of the Glenn Wilson type stuff at about 5 bpm less and about 50 layers less. Less is more.


got any examples of the artists/tunes you are on about here? ("harder than any of the Glenn Wilson type stuff ")....sounds good id like to here some......