why are distributions keep going broke?

[fatcollective]

So what y'all saying is anyone out there who is new to production and wanting to make a name for themselves by starting their own label should forget it because they're killing the scene? And that those people should leave it to the professionals or something?

What a load of self important toss....

not sure who this was directed at Craig...i think eviled303 has got a fair point there. at the end of the day, things are bad at the moment...and its hard to pin point exactly whats happening and why things are so bad...too many labels?...Mp3?...illigal download?...fucx knows...is the trend coming to an end..i hope not...but who knows :cry:

[fatcollective]

I think we`d all like to get more of our records to brazil, unfortunately your tax system makes import costs soooo high to get stuff in.

im sure if we could get more tunes abroad, this woud help distributors a little, i think i places like brazil, the people there are crazy for british techno...but unfortunatley cant get hold of as much as they would like...therefore Mp3 downlaods are the only other solution.

[miasma man]

Good good threads, v useful, spot on people...

[Craig McW]

intentionally not directed at individuals. I just think it's irrelevant to the problem. Yes things are bad, everywhere. Why? Multiple reasons..... each as impactful as the other..... illegal downloads, new technology, lack of interest, too much to choose from, too many genres,.....

Dunno how to fix it. I live in Australia, and it's fecking isolated. Luckily we have a few people brave enough to import good music (substrata.com.au) but it's not enough to sustain the whole country....... if it's bad over there, imagine how it is over here!

So what y'all saying is anyone out there who is new to production and wanting to make a name for themselves by starting their own label should forget it because they're killing the scene? And that those people should leave it to the professionals or something?

What a load of self important toss....

not sure who this was directed at Craig...i think eviled303 has got a fair point there. at the end of the day, things are bad at the moment...and its hard to pin point exactly whats happening and why things are so bad...too many labels?...Mp3?...illigal download?...fucx knows...is the trend coming to an end..i hope not...but who knows :cry:

[Komplex]

Do people even know what techno is? I think that issue should be adressed before you guys crap on and cry about poor sales and distribution problems.

Everyone knows what HipHop is, theres so much of it around and the majority is shit too, just like with techno. But they don't seem to be having as hard a time.

Let's look at why and not point fingers.

[fresh_an_funky_design]

the problem is there is too much crappy loop based techno out there, producers need to break out the box and create interesting and fresh techno, by doing this hopefully we will get new listeners and thus more dj's buying vinyl.

also i have recently started a new label, now i know a lot of people diss new labels, but when i started dj'n when i went records shopping i was limited by my wallet not by choice. Now days i genuinly want to spend my money on tunes but i cant find that many that i like. Now with my label i am releasing tunes that i would genuinly go out an buy if i heard them, and by the way there not my own tunes.

Another point: i live in north wales an i have recently noticed a rise in people listening to dance music as a whole amongst kids. For instance my sisters and her mates have listened to hip hop ever since it became fashionable to listen to it, and know there all listening to dance. Also i've noticed a lot more people coming to the hard dance events, all a sort of new generation of kids into raving. Maybe the scene could be on the rise again. I dont know time will tell.

[Komplex]

FAFD - I dunno what you mean by loop based techno? Techno itself is pretty much based on repetitive rhythms... And whether repetitive sounding or not, its an awesom form of art and expression. But does it entertain the general public and punters? NO. Not really. You have to "get it" to like it.

Anyway, the music itself may not be the problem. There is so much quality and variety around. Especially from the younger guys.

The fact is it just isn't popular right now. People don't market it and people don't know of it. It's just music and to anybody who isn't a connoseuir or chinstroker it is overlooked and unheard. And it is sold on a medium called vinyl that limits the market even more, mainly to people who mix records in their spare time.

Oh and add the fact that it has gained the image of being classed as music for speedfreaks and drug fiends.

Its not sexy either.

Chicks don't dig techno.

Basically Techno digs its own grave by being what it is. A neiche form of expression.

[schlongfingers]

Its not sexy either.

Chicks don't dig techno.

:lol: Well, I gotta disagree there!

re// loop techno - go to Juno, listen to ten clips, the nine clips that sound the same for the length of the minute long sample - THAT is loop based techno.

[Komplex]

Its not sexy either.

Chicks don't dig techno.

:lol: Well, I gotta disagree there!

re// loop techno - go to Juno, listen to ten clips, the nine clips that sound the same for the length of the minute long sample - THAT is loop based techno.

Ah i get ya :)

WORD! **** that shit off for sure. Thats not expression. Thats lazyness.

[Ritzi Lee]

Maybe a stupid suggestion:
Everybody who downloads mp3's,
are doing this through their own internet connection.
Or when someone downloads something through a company connection or internet cafe, it's still an internet connection.
Doesn't all connections go through some provider?
And these providers do get hold of log files... so they all know exactly wich files are downloaded and how many times.

Isn't it an idea to start up some extra registration where you can automatically see how much mp3's are downloaded, and of wich type and music it is? And i assume internet connections are not for free. :lol: So the music market wouldn't have to be killed by the downloading affair. Legal music royalty organisatiosn can get the money en registration download logs through the providers, who automatically calculate a little fee to the users.

Think about it. Internet providers are totally legal, as far as i know.

[Internal Error Records]

OK. somewhat off topic but still very relevant -

How many of us are TRUE businessmen?

How many up us have 4, 6 or 8 year degrees in finance or eceonomics?

I just wonder how qualified any of us are to make real forecasting desicions about the music industry.

just because we all have record labels, shops and distro's doesnt automatically make us credible sources.

I know this may be a bit offensive, but I find some sense of reassurance in the fact that we maybe all be a bit more glum about our outlooks because we just dont know the real deal about what we are talking about.

[tioneb]

Last Saturday i had a great discussion about this topic in my local record shop. The guy i was chatting with was the one who sold me my frist records, and that i lost contact once he stopped working at the shop… So 5 years after here is the situation :

The loop based techno has not evolved, the tracks have the same sounds, the same sequencing. Jeff Mills is an example, Ben Sims another. Whatever they try to do, they may succeed in convincing a few people like me who like thie rmusic anyways, but obviously they will bore more and more people that will never see the evolution, becasue its not perceptible.

SO instead of being democratized, techno got stuck into this nerds wold, who are the only ones that can tolerate this non-evolution, because they are too much passionate for that. Obviously the spectrum of potential buyers has seriously narrowed.

And among all these nerds, remove the ones that download and dont buy. Remove the ones that find more interesting to produce than to DJ (the guy who posted about « Bedroom producer » made a really goos statement).

1st conclusion : the techno records DEMAND has seriously gone down.

So, what about the OFFER ? Well, instead of going down, like in every market (we’re talking about sales, so why not about market ?) where the demand is reducing, it has risen up in an expected way. WHY ?

Because the people prefer to produce than to DJ. Because the DJs, even the good ones, need to release a record to get gigs, even if most of the time their production skills are not realted to their DJ skills. Because distributors, to keep their activity, accepted to issue crappy records that sell few.

Less demand, too much offer : it just seems techno world has not enouch read history books about what happened in 1929.

But i think we can find some good solution, who will come from people suffering from this situation. As Im among them, here are a few ideas :

- as shops do not deliver us the good stuff we expect from them (the unknown good producers, the not yet recognized newcommers, the unexpected stuff), then dont buy there. If there is a real demand for that stuff, after the successive collpasing of crappy shit dstributors and shops, then the real quality companies will emerge again. OF course that needs some years where u will die to get your stuff, but you need that to « clean » this situation. The « good » shops sell anyways the « same all the time stuff » anyways so get it there if u like, the « good » guys desserve more to earn money even with that stuff.

- If u want to start producing and expose your music, here is my personnal technique. Send it to established labels, the ones that have good tastes, whatver they’re new of old. If u are good enough, they will release you, if not that means you have to improve your sound. After having done this for some years im sure youll succeed. The other way is to distribute for free your music through internet (ex : by creating some netlabel). If your stuff is good, youll be heard, if not , at least you did not lose money and did not pollute the regular record market.

- If u are DJ and produce to get gigs, well, do the same as above. But first it means you have done all your best to expose your DJ talent. Put sets to download on the net, broadcast radio shows on FM / internet, send CD to promoters, DJ contests, whopever, youll never know who else will listen to it ! ! !

- Imagine other solutions, im sure your imagination is better than mine !!!

Was just my two cents... In conclusion i would to hear all your solutions. I dont care anymore about WHY were in such a crap, we all know we are in it. SO we need to know HOW to get out of this, and fast ....

Waiting for your ideas

[fresh_an_funky_design]

re// loop techno - go to Juno, listen to ten clips, the nine clips that sound the same for the length of the minute long sample - THAT is loop based techno.[/quote]


thats exactly what i mean, by loop based techno, i love techno but a lot of it is far too repatative.

[Jimfish]

craig, i think you could have been refering to a point that i had a big part in making on the previous page.. let me clarify a little for you..

Im not for a minute saying anyone should 'leave it to the professionals' or not start labels - i just think there needs to be less in total as there arent the buyers to support it.
If we had it so there was less labels and less releases then each release would sell more. Therefore more money would go to the artists so they wouldnt have to release so many records (and lower the quality by rushing things). Also less records but selling more of each release means less money is leaving the scene via prodcution costs. We need to keep the relativly small amount of money there is circulating within techno.
I also personally think it wise for new artists to take a policy of trying to get music released on established labels rather than doing thier own label (at the moment anyway) its better for everyone - and much better for the artist themselves as thier music will get noticed much quicker on established labels. And if it is good music someone WILL pick up on it.
There is no way in the world i would ever start another label myself and i probably shouldnt have started humanoid.
Ideally i would like to see labels go back to how they used to be when there was a much more diverse selection of music on each label rather than all these 'sister' labels for all these silly subgenres.
And obviously labels need to put out less music and be much more selective about what goes out. Trouble is it wont make a difference untill everybody does it at the same time.

[techno_smack]

interesting

[Ritzi Lee]

2 Internal Error Records:

I found found some tekst from Paul edge explaining the distribution scenario a recordlabel has to deal with. Really an outstanding piece of reading:

Rethinking Music Distribution in an Global Online Marketplace

Ok...So you`re a label..You`ve got your product. You`re happy with it. The DJs are playing it, the dancefloor is dancing to it. Magazines are reviewing it favourably, your website is getting great hits, its getting Radio support, the message boards around the world are praising your release and your artists are getting booked out on the strength of the release. No problem, you`re set... Oh I forgot to mention one thing, you`re a dance label.

Now quite why Dance Labels differ from every other commercially available product out there still remains a mystery to many people, but apparently, the rules of economics, as defined by the economist Adam Smith, and rules that apply to every other business from porn to religious artifact sales, just do not apply to Dance Music. No one can explain why this is the case, no one can counter the argument that these basic economic rules apply to the DJs who play your records, to the promoters who throw events around your music and similar labels, to the magazines who sell their issues on DJ and music etc. But you`re a label, so what do you know?

If, and this is a big if, you are lucky enough (if you can call it lucky) to be deemed important enough to be picked up by a "distributor", you will logically think, hey, I`ll sell some records..I mean look at the actual facts about costs;

To press, promote, pay advances, office expenses we`ll allow 2500.00 GBP. So assuming you get 2.00 a record, you only have to sell 1250 units to break even. Lets break that down further. Assuming your artist is international and playing in the major countries; UK, USA, Germany, Holland, Austria, Australia, France, Belgium, Switzerland, Canada, Japan, Spain, Eastern Europe (I`m giving distributors a break here), Sweden, Norway, Denmark and Portugal.

1250 units / 17 Countries = 73.52 units per country.

Assuming that each event your artist plays has an average of 600 people in attendance to see him DJ/Perform that is a potential marketplace of 600 - 73.52.. So, the reality is that a minimum of 600 people will pay to see your artist perform, but 73 of them won`t buy his work..Try telling Eminem that of all the people who go to see him perform, one in seven people won`t buy his record.

Starting to get a little pissed off..You should be. As should every label out there.

Here are some of the excuses you will hear when you suddenly realise all your work and that of your artists have produced a paltry 1000 sales;

1) You`re an unknown label, so people don`t want to pick you up.

2) Dance music is suffering.

3) What DJs play isn`t what people want (yes I have heard this one too many times it ceased being ludicrous after the first time.)

4) Radio and press exposure doesn`t matter (Try telling this one to Sony)

5) Noone wants....(insert generic music term here)

6) Noone is buying records when they can download them for free.

7) My dog, bit my neighbours horse, who then talked, and he slagged off (insert generic music term) so noone wants it now...

Time to tear your hair out? Welcome to the bald label owner club, the quickest growing community in the world - no wonder all these DJs have shaved heads..

About this time you will also start to notice a worrying trend. Your artists will start bitching at you that wherever they play out at least 10 people ask them where can they get their records, as noone is carrying stock. Furthermore, the email will start coming from your website confirming this. Irate, you will phone up your distributor and ask him what is going on...He will respond with;

1) Shops only buy 1 or 2 copies...

Now far be it from me to point out the obvious, (but having worked in retail for 6 years), as a shop, if a product sells, you get as much stock as you possibly can...This is what shops rely on..Big selling products...Its how they make their money. Go to any retail outlet, ask the manager what their big sellers are, and they will point out shelves and shelves of the stuff..

So where do you go from here? Consumers want the product, but they aren`t getting it. As a result you have your staff, artists, bank manager etc on your back. Shops are bitching that they aren`t making any money so they are closing down. The clubbers and wannabee djs are moaning they can`t find any original music..There is only one common thread here, the middleman, the distributor. The technic 1210 for the last 10 years has outsold the guitar in retail sales. What are people playing on these? Pancakes...??.

For the last few years distributors have blamed everything from the gulf war to 911 as an excuse for not selling records..The reality is that record labels have allowed a bunch of untrained salesmen to sell their product and sold every label short. I will give you a personal example. When we released Metamorphosis Of Narcotics in 1996, it was rejected by every distributor known to man. Why, noone wanted trance apparently. What did we do, we hired a van and drove around Europe visiting every shop we could find with 4500 records in the back. We sold out within 3 weeks. 6 months later, Nitric licensed the track and ended up selling over 30,000 through the very same distributors who had rejected the record only 6 months earlier.

The sales process is a complicated thing. Every sales orientated industry spends thousands of pounds training their salesforce. They don`t allow their product to be sold by amateurs. They would go out of business. Ask your distributor what sales training their employees go through...I will guarantee you, that no distributor invests in the people that your livelihood relies on. You as a label don`t stand a chance in hell of succeeding..The law of averages states that put an infinite amount of monkeys in front of an infinite amount of computers, in time one will write war and peace. Of course the sheer talent out there will result in successful labels selling 4000 units, but this has absolutely nothing to do with the distributors.

Instead they make excuses, and more excuses, whilst driving surprisingly nice cars, being in surprisingly nice offices. Then again they make their money no matter how many the sell or don`t sell. They have no risk. They don`t need to sell 5000 units of your records, they just need to sell 5000 units..If it takes them 500 labels, they still make their money. Interesting point to note, compare your sales with the inhouse labels sales, when they do actually have some financial risk. You`ll probably get even angrier then.

So, you`re a label..What options do you have? Well you have to realise that in fact distributors are unnecessary. You have been blagged. Control of sales has to be assumed by the labels. Now this may seem somewhat daunting, and I understand why, being a label owner myself.

The benefits of controlling sales;

1) You control the market price

2) You get paid more money, bringing your break even point down.

3) You deal directly with the retailers, so you can see how the demand is going.

4) You control supply, and can divert it to where is necessary.

PHX Distribution - Rethinking Music Distribution in an Online Marketplace

Imagaine an global multilingual online community, all with their own personal state of the art personal flash websites. Imagine this community being based around dance music. Imagine being a label and being able to access this community, directly, with a 30 second flash movie promoting your product, with sound samples, straight onto their home pages. Imagine being able to sell your vinyl for 3.00, in either a digital/cd/vinyl medium. Imagine being able to deal directly with the shops, allowing them to hear your whole record online instead of hearing snippets down a telephone line? Imagine monthly generating valuable extra income through customisable cd sales. Imagine getting your money with 7 days of someone buying the record. And all this can be controlled from one central computer, eliminating 90% of all overheads for you as a business

The internet is becoming the most important marketplace for music distribution. The generation prepared to spend money online is now in a position to do so. The sociological changes that were always going to take 10 - 15 years to implement are now starting to happen.

Regards

Paul Edge
http://www.djpauledge.com

[SlavikSvensk]

this is just my personal opinion, but i find that techno has, by and large, lost its edge. not that there aren't a lot of people making great music out there (there are), but that very little new stuff i hear gives me that same exhilarated feeling i used to get when hearing a new red planet, plus 8 or hybrid record. there are some exceptions...i absolutely loved secret cinema's revenge of a nerd, but without that spark, newbies may not find techno to be the same breath of fresh air us veterans once did...and without new blood, as people have pointed out...who is going to keep buying all those records?

[Jack]

also clubs seem to be stopping doing techno nights, probally because cash, can make more with cheesy club nights more on bar etc. Less clubs less vibe less records sold. Birmingham hardly has any techno compared to 3-5 years ago. Have seen the crowds get less too. Also noise regulations are a problem has stopped us doing a night back home (Ludlow) which has been going for over 3 years. Unless we use the in house shit rig which ain't gonna happen.
So less scene, less records sold.
Roll on the summer and the great outdoors...

[eviled303]

i think everyone should just listen to slayer. its all about the thrash metal, then no one would worry about labels and stuff. (and before i get a tirade of abuse, i'm just a bit pissed and having a bit of a laugh. but seriously, slayer are well good and they'e got nothing to do with techno. did anyone recently see them blow away slipknot??)

[Internal Error Records]

i think everyone should just listen to slayer. its all about the thrash metal, then no one would worry about labels and stuff. (and before i get a tirade of abuse, i'm just a bit pissed and having a bit of a laugh. but seriously, slayer are well good and they'e got nothing to do with techno. did anyone recently see them blow away slipknot??)

Let me quote Wayne Campell (from Waynes World)

"Led Zepplin didn't want to impress everybody, they left that to the Bee Gee's"

IMO thats a common techno mentallity. In other words you do techno cause you love it, not because you are after easy cash.