predefined loops or writing your own music?

[auditory hallucinations]

I think it's each to their own really...personally I use a combination.

Using recorded loops can definately help you start off on a groove (which can be the hardest bit to define)...then I add my own patterns over the top of that.

I then usually either remove the loop(s) completely, or filter them to smithereens so you couldn't recognise them anyway.

But a lot of techno / electronic music uses sampling, so I don't have a problem with them at all - it's what you do with the sounds that count.

[Ritzi Lee]

I dont think its cheating to use loops, its part of the learning curve but can understand why when people who sucessfully create their own stuff that sounds awesome get pissed off with people who call them selves producers by arranging other peoples loops. But as has been said its done by load of high profile producers. One of the sound banks I have at home has loads of loops found in cave records...
..

Thank you for mentioning this!
Using loops is a pure learning curve to get the feeling of how to create proper drum combinations and grooves...
It's the stage where people are exploring how to make tracks, and are not seriously thinking about releasing stuff.

And if you want to use tracks in a proffesional way; for instance to release on a label: That should be the moment to get you own creations done, by making your own patterns like the most over here mentioned..

[mrbenn]

neilried wrote:

I dont think its cheating to use loops, its part of the learning curve but can understand why when people who sucessfully create their own stuff that sounds awesome get pissed off with people who call them selves producers by arranging other peoples loops. But as has been said its done by load of high profile producers. One of the sound banks I have at home has loads of loops found in cave records...
..


Thank you for mentioning this!
Using loops is a pure learning curve to get the feeling of how to create proper drum combinations and grooves...
It's the stage where people are exploring how to make tracks, and are not seriously thinking about releasing stuff.

And if you want to use tracks in a proffesional way; for instance to release on a label: That should be the moment to get you own creations done, by making your own patterns like the most over here mentioned..

Well Said :clap:

I think using loops is a great way to learn to structure tracks & learn about grooves and drum patterns

[audioinjection]

i use loops sometimes

i just dont like to see producers who base all their work off of other peoples loops

[BRADLEE]

I use both. However if you're going to yank a loop, atleast make your own variation to it. Don't just flat out rip off the loop. That is my opinion on the subject.

[RDR]

who else thinks that this argument is the blasphemy that affects all dance music producers (mainly)?

its an argument that rears itself only irregularly. The reason is because i reckon that people find it hard to discuss, its a touchy subject.

for my own 2p worth i use both because i dont want a limit. but i try and mangle them or alter the frequency content.

Fruityloops is for doing both

i have written production tunes on fruity using loops (only one loop) and samples.

the main difference IMHO is that how different is using a synth that uses wave tables or using fruityloops to mangle one sample or even how different is using a loop and resequencing the samples or breaking the beat?

the Prodigy used plenty of loops run through an akai. So then how different is an akai to a rex file then if you think it is different, what is the difference between analogue and digital?

How can you break a loop akai style using purely analogue gear?

what about virtual analog?

there are lots of potential solutions to these questions

whatever you think, there have been plenty of truths concerning all these questions, they exist on both side of the divide.

no-one is right, no-one is wrong. whatever you like doing you should just do. if it sounds right then it is right.

lecture over, beware there will be questions at the end - (david williams - little britain)



:opens can of worms:

[fresh_an_funky_design]

i've gotta say im sick of hearing some producer who's wacked a load of loops together, added a bit of effect and what have you then releases it. Its this sorta shit that will be the downfall of us.

It needs producers who are prepared to put the time and effort into a tune, by creating the own sounds and patterns. For example Jim Fish's tune on Humanoid 5. You can tell that he has put some serious time and effort into that tune, also Dirty bass and Dave the Drummers productions show the same sorta thing. I could list a hell of a lot more producers.. but im not gonna!

Basically loops are cool to learn with.. but dont release a tune made out of loops. If your truly good enough to release a record then your good enough to make the tune your own.

[Komplex]

i've gotta say im sick of hearing some producer who's wacked a load of loops together, added a bit of effect and what have you then releases it. Its this sorta shit that will be the downfall of us.

It needs producers who are prepared to put the time and effort into a tune, by creating the own sounds and patterns. For example Jim Fish's tune on Humanoid 5. You can tell that he has put some serious time and effort into that tune, also Dirty bass and Dave the Drummers productions show the same sorta thing. I could list a hell of a lot more producers.. but im not gonna!

Basically loops are cool to learn with.. but dont release a tune made out of loops. If your truly good enough to release a record then your good enough to make the tune your own.

Gotta agree.

Its worse when some of the high profile dj's do it just so they can put that "dj/producer" tag on their name... lamers.

[rounser]

However if you're going to yank a loop, atleast make your own variation to it. Don't just flat out rip off the loop. That is my opinion on the subject.

Exactly...in a similar vein, I think Tee Boy (of KvR) makes a lot of sense:

I constantly, constantly, CONSTANTLY, hear drum loops from sample CDs or other loop librarys that I recognice...very boring...programming loops yourself from existent material or make a completly new groove from synthesis is much more fresh imo.

Yeh, but imagine all the stuff you havent noticed! I admit its not very tasteful to drop premade beats into your track, but that isnt to say that these loops dont serve a purpose. I mean, taste 5 break beats, chop them up, layer bits, process bits, generally **** them up beyond recognition... and no one is going to recognise a thing.

If you are prepared to use premade drum samples, then i dont see any problem using premade loops as long as you do so to create your own beats. I do this ALL the time, and have no issue with it. Its not that i cant record and design beats from scratch (infact i do more often than not), its just that i prefer working with loops. Kits are a little bland in comparison, except maybe for the likes of the super kits (DFH, BFD etc).

Let me give you an example:

I was doing a track the other day using this exact technique. I started with a live drum loop i recorded a while back, chopped it up and locked it to a tempo. I then took a nice top loop off BT's breaks CD, cut it up and layered the snare and hat over those on my live drums. I then took a nice old break off a vinyl, did the same and fitted it in with the beat. After a while of toying around i got a nice beat together which had a live feel with a nice modern breaks sounds. No way i could have done this with out working with loops, since the variations in the different hits wouldnt be there.

And i guarentee there aint nobody would spot which samples i used. Not a prayer.

Also, without meaning to piss in his pocket, reading the practical, results-oriented attitude of Mark EG towards sampling on one of the early posts on these boards was quite liberating for me.

I also note that no-one's mentioned MIDI drumloops. You can cycle through these and try out ideas quickly, and it's pretty hard to call using them unoriginal because they're generally so basic (calling up a pattern that's simply a trigger on every second 16th to hear how it sounds like that is hardly plagiarism), and you're still going to be using your own choice of samples and dynamics.

Also, drum kits in the real world resonate, and electronic kits don't...so unless you're going for a clinical sound, that's good enough reason for considering using some sounds from breakbeats...the "air" between hits alone can add a lot, even if you borrow only that and loop it or something...

[slavestudios]

99% of the time i write me own. but sometimes i'll nik summat from a track. almost always try & bend it outta shape though. jus lifting other ppls loops is too lazy

[JohnnyDigital]

i think is very hard to create a track only using loops... at least for me (i'm doing psytrance, goa and full on)

on most i use a perc loop to spice things up in a break or so...

but that's 6 to 12 sec in a song that can go up to 6/12 mins...


when i begun i tryed using acid and some loops, but never got anywhere with it


maybe acid would be helpfull to give some life to my old tracks... i might try that sometime


joão

[eyes without a face]

to me a good producer uses whatever tools he/she has available to them... if this means using pre-made loops in the mix then wikid, go for it, as long as it sounds wikid and really does something then its all good, but as other's have said just throwing the loop straight in is lazy, work that mo fo up a bit, add blines and synths that you've wrote ontop and really mix it up, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that at all

im glad someone mentioned Jim in there as his stuff is exactly what im getting at, there's nothing nicer than hearing synth lines/pads etc that have been worked out from scratch, i make a point of doing it myself 99% of the time, and perc loops are as far as i go when using loops, there is no denying there are some fantastic loops out there available to use and manipulate in the best way u can

loop usage is a tricky subject but i gotta say im pro-loops these days as long as they are used correctly/originally!

[The Overfiend]

i dont agree with people who completely use loops to produce there music, because thats bollox, its not producing ... its cheating.

i think its ok to to chop bits up and use the odd perc loop and add that to your own sounds. but to use ready made loops to make muisc is bollox.

precisely.
I think that unless you can program a loop from scratch you shouldnt be able to use a loop. F*ck that. I sat there and made my own patterns for 2 years before realizing people used loops and better samples and such. Every one should crawl before you walk man.

[AcidTrash]

I also like to see some reactions from the people who only use loops..
there are lot of FL fanatics over here.

How is that relevant?

I use fruity and very rarely do i use loops.

ins't that what it's used for??

I've heard better tracks made with FLoops than a lot of kit jocks efforts.

Using sample loops as a foundation for your idea is fine. it's not cheating at all. Personally I like to use half loops and put my own kickdrums on just to fatten up the sound. admittedly the better i get the less i do it.

[Komplex]

I also like to see some reactions from the people who only use loops..
there are lot of FL fanatics over here.

How is that relevant?

I use fruity and very rarely do i use loops.

ins't that what it's used for??

I've heard better tracks made with FLoops than a lot of kit jocks efforts.

Using sample loops as a foundation for your idea is fine. it's not cheating at all. Personally I like to use half loops and put my own kickdrums on just to fatten up the sound. admittedly the better i get the less i do it.

Using your own work as a foundation is fine, and maybe adding a short loop deep in the mix to fill out the empty spaces is ok.

Using some sampled loop as a foundation certainly is not fine. Its lame, plain lazy, boring and unoriginal :)

[loopdon]

i dont agree with people who completely use loops to produce there music, because thats bollox, its not producing ... its cheating.

i think its ok to to chop bits up and use the odd perc loop and add that to your own sounds. but to use ready made loops to make muisc is bollox.

precisely.
I think that unless you can program a loop from scratch you shouldnt be able to use a loop. F*ck that. I sat there and made my own patterns for 2 years before realizing people used loops and better samples and such. Every one should crawl before you walk man.

man, i think that's exactly my story, m8!

[Basil Rush]

i dont agree with people who completely use loops to produce there music, because thats bollox, its not producing ... its cheating.

i think its ok to to chop bits up and use the odd perc loop and add that to your own sounds. but to use ready made loops to make muisc is bollox.

precisely.
I think that unless you can program a loop from scratch you shouldnt be able to use a loop. F*ck that. I sat there and made my own patterns for 2 years before realizing people used loops and better samples and such. Every one should crawl before you walk man.

And no-one should program a synth line till they can play the keyboard either goddamnit :)

I can never figure this one out. I mean if you make a track with a set of loops and you play it to someone and they jump around whilst it isn't all your creativity it's still a good track.

So maybe not using loops is in some ways a kind of personal satisfaction thing.

Of course if you have the craft down so you can make loops that sound as good as the ones in commerical libraries then you have one up on an awful lot of people as far as being able to do whatever your imagination can conjure up.

These days though I find my imagination far more limited than my ability to create the sound in the end. What i need is an imagination library :)

[Ritzi Lee]

Aight aight! :D

But now I see a topic like this:
http://www.blackoutaudio.co.uk/phpBB...ic.php?t=30025
Can we see this as a good example on how it shouldn't be done?
Most of these kind of productions rely on using loops layer over layer,
and every time using the same method....

[loopdon]

what's up, ritzi. ;)

i'd say loads of modern tech is very very loop-based, i leart that esp. when listening to sample-cds with perc-loops on them.

i myself use loops as well, just trying things and stuff.

often enough i start with several loops and find one by one dropping out until the tune's finished, leaving me with a hihat loop or something.

if one has some practice, though, i think there's no problem in creating one's own perc-loops, even if that only means using the frooty randomising feature on a synth's perc-patches (see sytrus for example).

i think it's mainly about the ability of a producer to make you bounce.

i reckon there's people who couldn't move a floor with their productions even if they used a squilllion loops.