Techno, a new movement.

[fresh_an_funky_design]

i think you guys are looking far to deep into this subject, your trying to giving techno an almost sense of being 'fine art'. as though every song has to have meaning and provoke emotion. You remind me of my lecturer's off my old course, who would spend hours debating over the meaning of a photograph, when in reality its just a nice picture.

If you wanna give your music meaning and ethos then do it, if you wanna make dance floor stuff then do it. There's enough sub genre's within techno without creating anymore.

[SlavikSvensk]

i think you guys are looking far to deep into this subject, your trying to giving techno an almost sense of being 'fine art'. as though every song has to have meaning and provoke emotion. You remind me of my lecturer's off my old course, who would spend hours debating over the meaning of a photograph, when in reality its just a nice picture.

If you wanna give your music meaning and ethos then do it, if you wanna make dance floor stuff then do it. There's enough sub genre's within techno without creating anymore.

look back to techno in its early days. those guys did not know what they were "supposed" to be making. there WERE no subgenres. yeah, the music sounds primitive now (in some ways), but it was free and not afraid to try new things. techno is just so institutionalized now, and the subgenres are to blame. "i only listen to schranz" or "i make uk acid techno." fine and dandy as personal choice, but these are limiting choices. the fact that most people choose to make these explains why so little techno has any mystery, any exuberance, any ambition.

so i'm 100% with steve about the need for a movement within techno of people who consciously push themselves beyond the narrow confines of subgenres and writing music for an established audience.

this must be the millionth time i've said this, but people should just make music, and stop thinking about having to do it this way or that way. or trying to sound like a producer they like. so maybe you'd end up with a hard techno track anyways. fine...but i bet there'd be at least one element in it that would be new or atypical...like an off-meter beat or unique synth stab.

when i hear records like that (and there are some, but not a lot of them) i get that same feeling i had the first time i heard "sheet one" or "the wipe." that's what techno needs more of, IMHO.

[dirty_bass]

I don`t think you can look too deep.
Music is an artform. It is one of the gifts of higher and evolved brain function.
Yes, you can make music purely for the dancefloor, but my point is (and I`m not really saying anything against it), when it just becomes about that, then I don`t see how it has any separation between the latest kylie number.

As for the comment made

Producers make predictable music because they know it works and this is important

Well surely doing this is just as bad as westlife bringing out another cover of a ballad, because they know it works.

.the people that judge our music are the clubbers, the ones that dance to our music, live our music and buy our music.

.the people that judge our music are the clubbers, the ones that dance to our music, live our music and buy our music.

I think to keep the music alive, then we need to be thinking outside of these confines. Because these people aren`t buying the music. MAybe in a way the more loopy sound is so geared towards DJ`s, that most music listeners just aren`t interested. this doesn`t really concern me too much, as I`m really not into the loop department anyway.

I think maybe the point I`m trying to make, or the point I`m coming too, is that people could do well, to remove their blinkers and look outside the world of techno, and whatever club they go to regularly.
The music isn`t that underground, or cutting edge as a whole.
I see more innovation, more risks, and more cutting edge sounds in Hip hop these days (and more sales too, so they aren`t freaking people out)
Looking at things purely in a DJ context is also limiting the audience.
I think the structure of techno panders to the DJ too much. I mean, it ain`t hard to mix 2 records of similar tempo together, so to make it even easier by being overly predicable is just pandering to the DJ rather than the music.
It`s not that difficult to try new things when making music.
Rather than reaching for that old classic 4th and 7th beat percussion hook, search for a new modes etc
Try using non 909 kicks
Don`t use claps
blah blah
It`s the records that do break from the norm, that everyone remembers.

[fresh_an_funky_design]

Try using non 909 kicks

agree with you there, the 909 was a great drum machnie but it should have been relagated to the history books a long time ago. i know it helped create techno into what it is, but im a bit sick of 909 & 808 samples.

[fresh_an_funky_design]

i just think there is too much 'philosiphising' about techno by people on this forum. There will always be people who leed and others who follow. There will always be a select few who will constantly strive to lead and innovate new ways. and there will always be many more who follow and imitate what they have achieved. Its not just techno, or even music where people are churning out repeatative stuff. The graphic design world is another prime example. How many adverts, flyers etc have you seen that a)stick to a formula or b) are ripping someone else off. There are a few people at the top of the design world that are being innovative and creative, and there are many more who are copying.

Within any creative medium your gonna get people sticking to a formula, just because people are involved in a creative subject necerssarily means they are creative.

[Evil G]

i think that formulas and bags of tricks can be a problem in any kind of music, including emotional music. listen to the soundtrack of any hollywood movie. they all use the same very safe and predictable tricks, but they still make the audience cry at the right time.

i think it's impossible to get away from formulas, so they should be viewed as a necisary evil, to be used when needed, but not to be used thoughtlessly. most music that i consider "good" impresses on me the feeling that the producer was able to step back from the formulas and understand why they worked in the first place, and build them up into something that is greater than the sum of it's parts, rather than just throwing them in and hoping the formula and tricks will carry the track or give it credibility.

[dirty_bass]

Too much philosophising?
these kind of discussions are important.
What esle are we gonna talk about.
Who`s your favourite DJ?

[SlavikSvensk]

Too much philosophising?
these kind of discussions are important.
What esle are we gonna talk about.
Who`s your favourite DJ?

or "i love/hate schranz"

;)

discussing techno intellectually is vital, as it keeps techno intellectual.

[dan the acid man]

yeah but im thick ;)

[Mr Exit]

I wonder sometimes wether there will be any new genre's in techno, it looks to me like we have exausted all creative avenues

Even aphex twin isnt coming up with anything ground breaking anymore

I dont see why this should stop people making, playing and enjoying techno though

[djshiva]

i always find these discussion interesting, mainly because there seems to always be a split between "intellectual" techno and techno for the unwashed masses. why there has to be a split is beyond me. people like to polarize things i guess.

as far as constraints go, i personally find those constraints interesting. i love really far out experimental stuff too, but as far as djing goes, i do like working within a framework.

i remember the first time i ever heard miles davis "kind of blue". in the liner notes, he talks about how the playing in jazz had gotten so far out that melody was being lost. so on kind of blue, the players were constrained by a certain scale, but could improvise inside of that framework. what happened was an incredible album based on certain constraints, but definitely an amazing result.

for me, the interesting thing about djing is that, yes, i DO wanna see people go crazy on a dancefloor. the real challenge is to mess around inside their heads at the same time they are shaking their asses. if i wanna listen to really obscure, esoteric music, i do it at home sitting with a book. but if there is a giant soundsystem in front of me, i wanna rock the **** out. doesn't mean i can't let it move my brain as well, but i do tend to drift if it's too abstract in those circumstances.

i know this is somewhat rambling, and perhaps i can put together a more cogent explanation when i haven't been up for hours moving all my shit into a storage space. ;)

[dirty_bass]

Yeah, I totally get what you are saying.
But in a genral context, the restraints are getting narrower as people focus more and more on sub sub sub sub genre.
The point I`m making is that you can be experimental and still be "average listener/clubber" friendly.

Look at the hip hop world for examples of this.
Even on the real commercial side you had tracks like Kelis` Milkshake, and Missy Elliots Pass tha Dutch, which were by no menas conforming to the rules of commercial hip hop, and they still sold millions and rocked the floor.

The problem comes partly from apparent peer pressure too.

I think people want to fit in, are a little scared by reaction to try new things.
Also there`s a lot of idolatry and emulating of heroes, so aspirations are just to be like someone else rather than to stand apart as an individual.

I`m not saying people should start using morphic time signatures, and full orchestras to make techno, but the total lack of any adventure or attempting to break the norm is a little disapointing.

There doesn`t have to be one or the other, but I think, experimentalism can be used in a more conventional "I just want to rock" context, and those who just want to rock, could do with a bit of experimentalism.

[SlavikSvensk]

i don't care what anyone says...missy elliot f***ing rocks. sometimes she sounds more techno than techno.

i think the idea here is not to get rid of all the orthodox dancefloor techno, but to encourage those of us who are looking for something different/more (depending on your viewpoint) to hash out good ideas and maybe even start interactin in some way or another.

local scenes aren't as important as they were in the 1980s or 1990s, because we can transfer information so easily across borders and so on.

detroit had derrick may, juan, kevin, blake baxter, etc. all listening to each other and vibing off each others' work. now maybe we have a cyber-detroit...or maybe we need a cyber-detroit...

[fresh_an_funky_design]

as far as constraints go, i personally find those constraints interesting. i love really far out experimental stuff too, but as far as djing goes, i do like working within a framework.

i gotta agree with you here, i do enjoy experimental stuff, im a big fan of aphex twin, and i do buy a lot of the more experimental techno, but the harsh releality of it is that most of it dosen't work on the dance floor. Your average clubber like's a good solid beat to dance to. Quite often on sundays at free partys i break out all my experimental tune's to break it up a bit and 9 times out of 10 i do a pretty good job of clearing the dance floor. I think dance floor music does have to stick to a formula, however there is room for creativity within these formula's. You don't see bands throwing away there guitars and trying to create new instruments, because guitars work well in rock music.

Whoever said earlier on that they can't see any more genre's being created is being very short sighted, there will always be progression, some new method of synthesis may come out, some crazy new instrument that will spawn a whole new sound possibly sub culture. History repeasts itself!

so what im trying to say is that most clubbers want good repatative beats to dance to. Therefore producers will continue to make it as there is a market for it.

[Mr Exit]

People like cristian vogel and neil lansdtrumm push the boundries of 4/4 techno a bit more

[Joseph Isaac]

People like cristian vogel and neil lansdtrumm push the boundries of 4/4 techno a bit more

Definitely agree...Vogel is one of my all time favorite producers. His old Djax Records were insanity...

[massplanck]

People like cristian vogel and neil lansdtrumm push the boundries of 4/4 techno a bit more

They basically make intellectual techno you can just get drunk and have a laugh too.

[massplanck]

By the way I dont know whats up with this 'new movement' thing.

Someone list their top ten 'new techno movement' records for me please.

[tocsin]

There can never be any new movement in techno for the simple fact that, as soon as something is actually "new," the anal will refuse to call it "techno." :p

[BloodStar]

I think techno is very subjective music and what's techno for you doesn't have to be same with me.. everyone has own view on what is techno, and what not...

everyone should try to break some boundaries in their music and change the view on their music little bit.. sometimes i find very helpful to think about all what i'm doing in the track,,and compare how it would be done by unique musician. techno artist is working and composing alone.. all the things are DIY. in live band there''s letssay 5 unique musicians and each of them knows perfectly his instrument... so he have enough skills to experiment or jam and this can give him some unique results.

i think first is understanding (not just using what i hear elsewhere),,,then experimenting...

comprehensive understanding of music and music theory could help a lot,... to both sides,,, producers,,and crowds,,aswell